I'm hoping logs come much cheaper than this?

[BigD]

Hi etd66ss,
Honestly, I don't know if the 'free' log thing exists or not. In class we are taught about some avenues to get cheap logs. Some of that information a person could get from just doing their own research and being a smart little boy (condescending....couldn't help it, hehe). I think it is possible to get very cheap logs, and some members have been able to take advantage of that. Other members have paid through the nose for logs....I think the majority of members try and find the best deal they can on logs and roll with it.

If the sole reason for taking the class is to find out how to get free logs....probably not a good use of money. If you are REALLY interested in building a log home, then taking the class makes sense because the wealth of information you will get far outweighs the the class fee.
Having said that, I haven't build my log home yet so I am still naive and energetic. Talk to me in a couple of years when my will is broken and I have turned to the bottle for strength.

Hope that helps....hope you take the class and have the same type of experience that I had.

[Mosseyme]

I guess I am the exception to the rule here because I was looking for some kind of on DIY log home building. We were already logging our place due to our Hemlocks dying y. We had thousand of them and we would have had to just pack up and walk away for 10-20 years while they died and fell or fell them ourselves. I found only 2 sites online of people doing it themselves. Then I came across the LHBA. It took me about 1 hour of reading to realize this was what I was looking for. I guess I am too trusting or naive but I was right this is what we needed. We would have built a log cabin one way or another but lots and lots of mistakes. I gave up my long awaited trip to Ireland for our 40th anniversary for this class and it was a bargain.
For me the main reason to not give to much detail is the 22 hours of info we were given. Think about it. We chose a certain way of doing our foundation so I focus on that but there are several other ways. We chose a certain way of stacking our logs but there are others. I don't remember all the details of the different ways of doing everything and I would not want to give enough to make someone think they had all they needed to go build one of these. Most of it is not rocket science but details are important, and reasons are important. Repeat there are 22 hours of details.
BTW: We are in or mid 60's and are doing this with a little help from family and friends. Logs are stacked and roof is on. Lots to do but it will get done.

[dgrover13]

I have been on this forum for many months and have followed the threads. I am gearing up myself to take on this huge project of BYOC(Build your own cabin).

This is by far the best thread I have seen discussing the class and real benefits of taking. Also discussing the 'just take the class' response that often gets used so often by members of the forum.

I plan to take the class myself and this thread help me decide this. However, I think the LHBA could serve itself better if they dropped the use of that phrase. Regardless of the context - its going to strike many people the wrong way.

There is so much value to offer in the class - there is no other place to obtain the documentation of the Skip Ellsworth butt and pass method. The members only section makes sense - because thats for people who have committed and made the decision to build (or at least take a significant step towards building).

I would think there are many reasonable people who turn away with the wrong impressions of the LHBA. I have seen that bias on other log building forums.

just my 2 cents`

[rocklock]

reasonable people who turn away with the wrong impressions of the LHBA.
I have seen that bias on other log building forums.

Can a phrase cause the wrong impression? I don't know but they always have the option to ask questions. Is there another phrase to use?

I have been on several other forums. Still am. Many of those forums just can't believe what we do. A student that goes to a two day class and be able the build a log home --- impossible. In another class they have a whole day on ax sharpening...

We don't pull any punches. Building a log home is just plane hard work. We are a strange bred. We make stuff.

[eagle]

A student that goes to a two day class and be able the build a log home --- impossible. In another class they have a whole day on ax sharpening...

We don't pull any punches. Building a log home is just plane hard work. We are a strange bred. We make stuff.

I thought it was odd to be able to learn the build in 2 days, however, after taking the class I came away knowing I could do it. It was actually simpler than I thought but knew it would be hard work. All meat and no fluff like ax sharpening.

[Mosseyme]

I know the "take the class" sounds a bit like a mantra or something but it seems to me that in many if not most cases someone answers the question asked in some way and then follow with "take the class" for the details so to speak.

[rreidnauer]

. However, I think the LHBA could serve itself better if they dropped the use of that phrase. Regardless of the context - its going to strike many people the wrong way.

You are missing two points. First, LHBA itself doesn't say, "just take the class." It's the students who have gone to experience it for themselves, and know the immense value it holds. Second, LHBA has no need to better serve itself. Classes always sell out, and they are larger than they've ever been. Personally, I believe the way it is, tends to weed out the uncommitted and the "takers", leaving a great community of people.

Instead of being put off by the statement, perhaps asking yourself why is it being suggested so much, would be the wiser decision.

[LowKey]

I attended the class this past February.
In order for me to attend I had to fly almost 8000 miles which took about 38 hours counting the layovers, co-ordinate and buy a ticket for my wife to fly to Vegas from Florida, then the usual hotel room and board. Oh, and suck up the lost wages while I was gone.
Undergoing all that bother got me 72 hours in Vegas.
Of that 72 hours I chose to spend 24 of them in the LHBA class, 24 hours that I could have spent with my wife who I had not seen in 6 months and who I won't see again for another 4 months.
When the class was over I had to spend another 38 hours cramped in economy flying back to work.

And it was worth every penny of it!


The class teaches you the basics, a foundation to build on with additional learning through the members side of this site. The members side here is not like the members side of many other websites. There are no keyboard commandos, no snarky jerks telling you you're doing it wrong and that you can't do it. When you come here with questions people, knowledgeable people, take time to help you work through your problem. You get real options and real answers, Members actually do travel to help each other with their builds, that's not BS smoke and mirror claims trying to sell you on the class.
Having to attend the class first to become a member weeds out people who aren't serious, so that the members side is full of those who have built or are actually going to build instead of people who will only talk about building but never take things further than idle chatter. Nothing wrong with having pipe dreams, but those of us on the members side are focused on getting our homes built and helping other members build theirs. The signal to noise ratio would be horrible if the need to physically attend class didn't weed out people who'll never get up the gumption to really start building.

The take the class mantra isn't about trying to get you to plunk down the course fee. It's asking you to demonstrate that you are serious about doing this, that you're willing to commit the time and money to attend...because if you can't be bothered to sacrifice two days of your time and the money to attend the course why in the world would anyone think that you're going to be up to making the sacrifices of time and money to build your own home with your own two hands? Anyone can do it, but it's not going to be easy. You will be tired. You will be sore You're going to break a sweat. You may even break a nail. If you can't get up the determination to attend the class you would likely give up after starting to build. We want to focus on people who won't give up.

[John W]

On the 'just take the class' mantra. I've been reading this forum for five years, got an account in 2011. Class attendance for me was just this past Feb. On the public side, you can learn the concepts. Butt and pass. Pier foundations (preferred by DIY, but you can do anything if done properly). Pinned logs. Chinking. A little about roofing. At the class, you get the DETAILS. Spacing on pins, piers and rafters. The mix ratio of the LHBA chinking. How to lift logs. How much insulation in the roof. Basically, the details on foundation, walls, roof and floors. And then, yes, access to the member's forum and all the help that provides.
On the log issue. There are ways to get 'free' logs, if you're very fortunate. But the reality is, even free logs must be transported to your build site, and transporting logs isn't cheap. Even on that, there are a few tips given in class to reduce that cost.

[TAB]

I'll add that you will most likely NOT be able to go straight to the mountain after class and have the knowledge necessary to build a cabin. But you WILL have the resources necessary, and a large group of friends ready to cheer on each and every milestone of your build, as well as ready to answer all of the parts that you still can't quite figure out yourself. They recommended in class that you should wait about 2 years from the time you take the class to start your build. That time is best spent acquiring tools, finalizing, then re-finalizing build plans, and learning. The learning is the fun part, since you can watch others as they build and share lessons learned as they progress. (More pics please!)

From somebody that is constantly on this site, but doesn't participate very often, those that do participate are a blessing, and I am extremely grateful for them. Take the class...LOL

[MPeterson1020]

You may even break a nail. .

No one told me that! I may have to reconsider building my home. But honestly, I read at least 75% of the non member posts before going to class and I thought I knew quite a bit. I wanted to go JUST to get access to the member side! And I didn't know as much as I thought I knew and I learned a lot IN class AND on the members side. I still learn every day. I spent most nights reading posts on stuff related to the part of the build I am in currently.(which is planning and foundation). I got tired of hearing "take the class" but only because I could not get to the next one and had to wait longer. We spent about a half months wages between class and food and flying, but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

[Mosseyme]

It is interesting to me that a number of the members promoting "take the class" right now are folks that just a short time ago were on the other side, a little on the fence, wondering about all this "take the class" stuff. The join date of each person is when they first joined the public forum I think.

[loghousenut]

This won't help you folks who are on the fence, but for those of us who have access to both sides of this forum, take a look back through the list of members who were prolific posters on the non-members side before they took the class. It amazes me how much more productive their questions are the week after class.

Not saying that they didn't post great questions before class. Just saying that, once they are on the same page as the rest of the members, they have questions about things that will build a log home. Things they will actually use in the next 5 years.

Yes, as lurkers, they are bouncing around in the stantion trying to find a way to get out there on the track of life and satisfy their log home desires. But as newbies they take a few baby steps backward, mosey around the starting gate, and slowly, methodically, they plod along, scheming and planning the thing that will really happen.

They don't wonder what tools to look for, but instead they have questions about those tools and they wonder if a particular Craigslist offer is a steal or not. They are looking at a particular chunk of land and wonder about its suitability for a 35x35. They have questions about a 35x35 that are not "Why not build a 20x40?. They ask about "scree" (you'll understand everything once you are on the members side).

I don't know about the rest of you, but I spend an hour or so every day on the members side. It's a fun hobby and, while it may not be productive for the rest of you, I don't feel like it is a tremendous waste of my time. The non members side is fun too but it is almost an afterthought and I am usually getting anxious to fire up the chainsaw, so I get a bit shortsighted with my comments.

Oddly, "take the class" seems like an appropriate answer from where I sit. If you were my nephew, and came to me all scrambled up about a fancy kit house builder or something out of a glossy magazine, I'd just sign you up, send a check, and force you on the airplane. You're not my nephew. Count your blessings for that. I'll still loan you a tool or two and come help you stack walls once you take the class.

[MPeterson1020]

It is interesting to me that a number of the members promoting "take the class" right now are folks that just a short time ago were on the other side, a little on the fence, wondering about all this "take the class" stuff. The join date of each person is when they first joined the public forum I think.

The join date on mine is when I first started posting on the non member side. We didn't take the class till September 2015. I had over a year of hearing "take the class". But it was still worth it.

[loghousenut]

Quick story....

A couple years ago I corresponded with some nice folks who were wondering about this LHBA thing. They lived a long way off but were looking to relocate here in sunny southern Oregon. I said, "Yup, stop in and take tour of our place and I have a converted bus you can stay in while you are finding a place to live."

They, and we, seemed to have different ideas about how it was all going to work out. They thought I should put him to work, teach, answer infinite questions about infinite ways to do this thing and get them started on their log home journey.

I answered half an infinite number of questions and said from the start that he could lend an occasional hand on our build only after they took the LHBA class. I know I could have set him to most any task on the place and got good work out of him but it was so different from past experiences when members have stopped in. His questions and ideas were constantly garnering answers from me that seemed negative instead of positive. I don't want to spend my time talking someone out of something that I think is probably a poor idea. There are REAL reasons to do this thing the LHBA way and as soon as I answer one "why not" question, it leads to another. Once a person has been to class, if they get all fired up about this thing they ask a different kinduva question.

When we were stacking our lower wall logs we had a visit from 18 year old Nathan (made up name but true story) who had taken the class with his Mother. He was off to college in a far off state and wanted to grease his hands on a real LHBA build. Had him for a week or so and it was nothing but learning for him and us. Everything we talked about was either concerning this particular style of building, or about life and women. We all knew what we were talking about except for the women thing. I want to take that class. When we were looking for the next log, he knew why we looked in the log catalog and he knew why C-9 was the wrong log til we got three or four courses higher. He just got it. He was no smarter that those folks who later stopped for awhile in the bus... heck he was just a college kid. But Nathan was fun and easy to work with and I had a feeling that anything he got from our build would really stick with him.



I took the class from Skip before a lot of you folks were born. I remember it like it was yesterday. It changed me and it changed my life. It changed Nathan's life. It was obvious to the rest of us. I wish I had just wrote the check and grabbed that other guy by the neck and shoved him on the airplane... It woulda changed his life. He needed it. They have moved on.



Take the class (I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Please do not be offended)

[John W]

And you get to discuss things with like-minded people. Then LHN says, 'You'll fit in here just fine.' And you really know you belong when he says, 'Yeah, that's a nice chainsaw, my 10 yr old granddaughter has one just like it for her popsicle stick craft projects.' Or words to that effect. (an almost true story)

[LowKey]

They ask about "scree" (you'll understand everything once you are on the members side).

That would be me.
Just to be clear, I hated hearing "just take the class" as much, if not more, than anyone else out there.
I had paid the class tuition. I had paid my plane tickets. I had paid for my room and board at the hotel. I just had to kill time until the class date rolled around....and they still wouldn't spill the beans.
Dammit.

I even explained that I have only 30 days each year that I can come back into the US to work on my place, and that my place is very much off the beaten path....that I need to figure out NOW what I'd need months down the road so that I could arrange to have it delivered in time.
Still, all that I got was sympathetic noises and "take the class".

Take the class. Once you've done it you'll be "in". It's not that the members hate everyone else, it's that they want to be able to focus on the people who will really take a swing at this. Attending the class is just demonstrating that you're serious. Once you've done that people are downright eager to help you.

Heck...if you attend the class I'll feed you crab and shrimp while I let you practice debarking logs at my place. Yup, free seafood and the opportunity to practice the skills you'll need to build you own home. Just take the darn class so we know you're serious and so that we don't have to explain for the umpteenth time any of the basic principles of a but and pass log home.

[Blondie]

Low key,

I followed the blog for years. I read everything in the library. I studied every photograph. I made drawings of what I believed was happening. I bugged Rocklock. Finally, finally I took the class. I sat there on that Saturday morning with a chip on my shoulder and prove it to me attitude. Within ten minutes I had an " oh" spreAding across my face and a large slice of humble pie to be consumed. Yup take the class
. I hated hearing that and now I say it, often.

Blondie

[loghousenut]

That would be me.
Just to be clear, I hated hearing "just take the class" as much, if not more, than anyone else out there.
I had paid the class tuition. I had paid my plane tickets. I had paid for my room and board at the hotel. I just had to kill time until the class date rolled around....and they still wouldn't spill the beans.
Dammit.

I even explained that I have only 30 days each year that I can come back into the US to work on my place, and that my place is very much off the beaten path....that I need to figure out NOW what I'd need months down the road so that I could arrange to have it delivered in time.
Still, all that I got was sympathetic noises and "take the class".

Take the class. Once you've done it you'll be "in". It's not that the members hate everyone else, it's that they want to be able to focus on the people who will really take a swing at this. Attending the class is just demonstrating that you're serious. Once you've done that people are downright eager to help you.

Heck...if you attend the class I'll feed you crab and shrimp while I let you practice debarking logs at my place. Yup, free seafood and the opportunity to practice the skills you'll need to build you own home. Just take the darn class so we know you're serious and so that we don't have to explain for the umpteenth time any of the basic principles of a but and pass log home.

LowKey, I was hoping you would chime in. Please forgive me if I ever accidentally said "take the class" to you.


Might I say that you became a completely different forum personality after class. I am sssoooooooo darned glad that we didn't chase you off with our impoliteness.

[Upers]

I paid $100 per log 13" top 19" butt and 41' long

[Mosseyme]

I agree with the nut about you LowKey, we could see that potential and we wanted it on the other side and did not want to run you off but you did have a tiny bit of a chip to start with and it is kinda understandable with all the difficulty you have planned ahead of you. But we really are OK folks once you give us a chance aren't we. We may just have to see how many folks want to do that long wished for trip to the out yonder and get that place up for you. Only problem is a lot of us are hard at trying to get our own done.

[LowKey]

I agree with the nut about you LowKey, we could see that potential and we wanted it on the other side and did not want to run you off but you did have a tiny bit of a chip to start with and it is kinda understandable with all the difficulty you have planned ahead of you..

Some of that was the result of dealing with the kissing cousins of those "helpful" folks who want to tell LHBA members how they're building a log home incorrectly (or that it can't be done) over the last decade as I explored different construction methods*.
You can't do that" or "You don't want that" is different from "You can do that but it will cause X,y, and z issues" Some of the "chip" I may have had can be attributed to hearing those first two far to many times elsewhere over the years. Thankfully none of you did that!

*I wasn't always looking at building a log home, for example for the longest time I was planning on an RC underground house but when I bought land in a rain forest in an island where concrete costs more than double what it does on the mainland I thought it might be a good idea to explore the possibility of using all those big sticks that poke out of the ground on the island.

[LowKey]

LowKey, I was hoping you would chime in. Please forgive me if I ever accidentally said "take the class" to you.


Might I say that you became a completely different forum personality after class. I am sssoooooooo darned glad that we didn't chase you off with our impoliteness.

No worries.
My irritation with the mantra was simply die to me having already set up everything to attend the class. "Take the class" is a bit....irksome......when you're just killing time waiting for the class date to roll around and are working under time constraints.

[etd66ss]

I paid $100 per log 13" top 19" butt and 41' long

What species?

I talked to a logger yesterday, here is what he had to say:

"Cedar doesn't grow any where near that size, oak is way too heavy for
your project. White pine we have, but if we can even find any that
length, the large end would be twice as big as the small, because of the
extreme taper. Larch or Red pine would be much better choices as they do
not taper as much."

[LowKey]

What species?

I talked to a logger yesterday, here is what he had to say:

Find a new logger.

[etd66ss]

Has anyone been able to find tree taper (stem profile) charts for various species? Is tree taper mainly a function of species, or is it more of a function of the conditions in which the tree grew? And when building a butt & pass log home, how much does taper really matter?

[loghousenut]

Taper is not an issue. Some species, like cedar and cypress, are prone to swelled butts and taper but mostly it is growing conditions that dictate taper. Those big ole straight Doug Fir up in western Washington, that look like drill pipes, grew close together and had to fight for every photon of sunlight. They grew straight up and have no taper. Contrast that with Doug Fir that are planted in a park, all 35 feet apart, and they will be full of limbs most of the way up and possess extreme taper.

If you want to build a notched, scribed log home, taper makes it much more difficult. There will be some logs that need to be nearly cut in two at the notch.

No notches makes the LHBA system fairly forgiving, so taper is just an aesthetic issue. Personally I don't care much about aesthetics as long as it looks right... and it does look right.




PS... More photos on the members side.



just funnin'... couldn't help myself

[etd66ss]

Thanks loghousenut

This morning I made a species comparison/selection chart to help me decide what kind of logs it makes sense to go after in my neck of the woods. I figured I'd share it, maybe it will help others in the Northeast.

Here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_X...ew?usp=sharing