Need some real info regarding wind mills

[Blondie]

Hi All,

I have done some research regarding wind power. Frankly, I like idea of getting power from something that is natural and using it for my use. However, I get lots of conflicting info from individuals who have $ to be gained by going their way.

I have a long 10 acre lot out where the wind is documented to blow 12 to 16 m/hr. There are no trees, buildings or rock formations near by so the wind flow is unobstructed. It is a large flat plain at about 5200ft.

There is power to the lot but I would like to harness the wind for some power. to be more independent. I have no thoughts that a power company way out in the desert will want to buy back power.

Would it be worth my time and money to invest in a wind mill for power?

Blondie

[edkemper]

Blondie,

I read an article a while back about how farmers were changing their wind mills to solar panels. The jist of the article was the cost to maintain the wind units.

[rreidnauer]

I agree with Ed. If you get 340 days a year of sunshine, don't bother with a windmill. I on the other hand, have plenty of overcast days, so a mix of wind and solar is the right combination. Places with very little sunshine (Seattle?) probably would have little benefit from solar, and just wind turbines are the best choice.

[Blondie]

Rod,

I have found 10 acres two and a half hours north of Las Vegas at 5200ft. The climate is much more moderate than Las Vegas. While Las Vegas get to 110 degrees in the summer, this area only gets to 90 degrees. I would not say that it had 340 days of bright sunshine but it has alot. The reason I was looking at a windmill, is that it produces power at NIGHT as well as during the day. At this altitude there should be winds blowing across the desert with the temperature change of day to night and night to day.

Blondie

[Kennit]

Rod,

Saw a little blurb on the TV the other day about solar in Seattle... with the amount of rain we get, apparently it washes the solar panels (frequently) and then they work at a higher efficency rate. Do you think there is any truth to this? Or just an attempt to get more people to go solar in the PNW?

Ken

[Kennit]

Sorry Blondie, didn't mean to hi-jack your thread.

Ken

[loghousenut]

Why not both? Wind and solar compliment each other nicely. Here in Oregon the power company is mandated to buy back our excess power at the same rate they sell it to us for. Essentially it runs the meter backwards. The real beauty of tying into the grid is the elimination of batteries. Like Ed said there is some maintenance involved with windmills but it is nothing like the maintenance involved for a battery bank. I say if you have a good solar site do solar. If you have a good wind or water site do them also. If you have a natural gas well.... Well then you can retire.

[donjuedo]

Hi All,

Would it be worth my time and money to invest in a wind mill for power?

Blondie

The answer depends on the numbers. I would try to find someone in the area who already has a wind mill, and ask about how much energy it produces. From that answer, you can shop around for wind mill prices and estimate cost per kilowatt-hour, then compare to grid cost per kilowatt-hour.

I hope that helps.


Peter

[rreidnauer]

I wasn't saying you shouldn't get a windmill Blondie, just to consider if the benefits of it are worth it. The thing to watch on (commercially available residential type) windmills is, overstated power production figures. It takes two things to make power. Air velocity and collection area. (area of the rotor exposed to wind) Since your air velocity can't be altered, your only choice is to get a wind turbine big enough to produce the wattage you desire at your average wind speed.

I personally do not endorse 'vertical axis' wind turbines, as they have very small collection area for their given size. The whole benefit of working no matter how much wind direction changes that is bragged about really means little in real world production numbers. For air to be changing direction regularly, it means that it must be moving relatively slow. This is where vertical axis turbine manufacturers brag they can collect energy where horizontal axis turbines can't. But this goes right back to wattage is a component of collection area and air velocity. Slow wind has very little energy. How little? Well, consider this. For every doubling of wind speed, the energy potential increases eightfold!! Those numbers work in reverse too, so if you cut wind speed in half, you only produce one-eighth the energy. There simply is no value in low wind speeds.

And to Ken's question. Yes, manufactures recommend that you clean your panels on occasion, as some efficiency losses will occur with dust and debris, though, I think the whole raining a lot argument is a long reach.

[lilbluehonda]

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned was if you have neighbors close by they are going to like your wind mill they sometimes can get noisy

[Blondie]

Hi lilbluehonda,

I am delighted to report that there will be individuals known as "neighbors" but so far away as not to be able to hear me scream at full force. They will be acres away. lol What a luxury!

Blondie

[Blondie]

Hi, Just got the computer out of the shop.....a virus got it! HORRID There are neighbors but so far away that they will not kear it. Such luxury!!

Blondie

[hemlock77]

One other thing I haven't seen mentioned was if you have neighbors close by they are going to like your wind mill they sometimes can get noisy

Often times the bs coming out of a neighbors mouth about a windmill(despite never being near one before), is much louder/detrimental to the neighborhood than a windmill ever will be.

[Timberwolf]

Often times the bs coming out of a neighbors mouth about a windmill(despite never being near one before), is much louder/detrimental to the neighborhood than a windmill ever will be.

Agreed. I've stood within 100 feet of the GIANT ones on the northern most tip of PEI, at the Wind Energy institute of Canada, and the WIND is noisier than the windmills themself.

[lilbluehonda]

Those big wind mills are actually not as noisy as some of the smaller ones made of fiberglass when the wind blows hard the blades Ferrell in the wind and make a lot of noise,they even warn you not to put them too close to your house,not far from me there are massive wind farms so I have heard them

[BoFuller]

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=10899

Blondie, try the site above. Northern AZ Wind & Solar. Most of the discussion there discourages windmills unless you consistently have winds above 20 mph. Anything less than that just isn't efficient to justify the cost. They say to get a anemometer (not sure I spelled that correctly) and actually measure your wind over a period of time. And this is from guys who actually sell windmills. I have too many trees, and if my wind did consistently beat 20 mph, I would need at least a 100 ft pole to mount one.

[project]

Why not build a wind turbine yourself? Check out otherpower.com I built their 17' dia turbine several years ago and it worked great..I gave it to a guy living off the grid in arkansas and he loved it..

[Timber]

solar has come a long way but not as far as it should or could have/ just my opinion!
i just saw on the news the first solar plane and it could fly at 30..40 mph. it was funny looking lol
they plan the first solar complete non stop flight around the earth soon/next year...thats a major breakthrough

i heard from a drywall job i did that solar is expensive and by the time it pays for itself you need a new system(something like 10-15 years). OUCH
that was the first thing the solar instal co. told this particular client and claimed by law they had to. but the home was 4500 sq ft ranch...1 floor in ca.

solar i read is better than wind power per dollar invested. you should be able to hook into the power for electricuty you produce. it just spins the meter backwards. if power goes out and your connected to grid..you will be without power..otherwise the power co. workers are in danger..so whats the benefit?...i think you can put in a switch (to get the solar off grid so you can use it in power outage times) maybe...just rambling.
i know enough to be dangerous when it comes to electricity

i thought you were already building Blondie

[loghousenut]

Solar is cheap. If I had a good solar site I would have the south slope covered in solar electric and solar hot water panels. We liv e up a north facing canyon so I can throw around bold statements like this.

In reality, wind and hydro power are really cheap. A good wind site probably makes the cheapest electricity you can find but you have to have a backup plan just like a sailboat does.

Trust me, once you have lived off of Coleman lamps and a generator, you will learn to appreciate what a good modern off grid system can do for you. The 20th century has been a GODSEND to the offgrid folks. It takes a bit of cash and you will have to learn the lingo but it'll be worth it in the long run.

[project]

I checked into solar where I live and it just wasnt affordable for me.. to cover 100% of my energy needs with a backup generator was around 75k installed.. 30 years of utility bills wouldnt add up to that so I scrapped the idea and started messing around with wind turbines .. I would look to your state for some help.Between the state and fed government you could probably get half of it paid for.. Just an idea..

[Blondie]

Okay Guys,

I have jumped off the cliff into the great unknown. I have been trying to deal with the electric company in this tiny area of the world. The politics do not end at the county line, hummmmm.

End of discussion is that I am building a 30 ft yurt to live in while I build a log cabin. I will have to sell my home 400 odd miles away to get the funds to build. Hence that lack of wanting to commute.

I purchased four 45 volt Harbor Freight systems yesterday. I know I don't know what I am doing, but that is what you guys are for, right? For off the grid stuff I have a waterless toilet, a propane stove and a generator (2400 watts). I know the generator is not a BIG one but I just want it to run, say for 6-8 hours a day to keep frig cold. I know that the frig will keep cold for at least 12 hours if you don't stand in the door and read a book. I plan to use a propane heater for heat. I will build a solar hot water heater for hot water. No washing machine, no dish washer just the frig/freezer.

Until the well goes in, I am going to bring water in a 500 gallon plastic horizonatal container on a trailer. Parked conviently up hill from the yurt.

Okay guys, don't throw rotten eggs. Just tell me I am completely up the wall.

Blondie

[StressMan79]

blondie,

good for you for making the jump. Only thing is, where are you? In washington state, there is very sunny areas like mine or those that are VERY shady, like Ty's. If you have a sunny area, you might get 5 hrs of the rated output per day (a "sun-hour") in the summer, and maybe half that in the winter. so in this best-case scenario, we are looking at 180W*5 hr per day, or .9kw-hr per day. That is actually enough for lighting and cell phones.

you are right again to worry about the fridge. This will take most of the power. get a very efficient one. then put 2 inches of foam over the outside, make sure the seal is good and tight. at least put on a radiant barrier (if you are good, you can make it look like stainless steel). Minimize the leakage/heat flow out of that unit.

If I were you, I'd get lots of storage batteries, so you don't deep cycle them, and a cheap inverter. The last thing you want is to have a whole icebox go bad b/c you forgot the genny. Then I'd run the genny into both a charger and the fridge. hook the inverter up to a switch to only run it a couple times per day. If you are good, you can run a relay off some electronics to do this automatically. Set an alarm to go off every 12 hr to remind you to fire her up for half an hour or so. some fancy electroncics could remind you to start the genny too.

might think about a propane fridge too. then you could have a chest fridge for storage and the propane fridge for convenience. Mine works good in my 32 year old camper.

Cut down your needs and you will be golden.

-Peter

[Blondie]

Thanks, Peter!

I am down where the sun goes for the winter! About 2 hours outside of Las Vegas. No end of sunshine here. Will look into propane frig.

Thanks, Again!!

Blondie

[rreidnauer]

Agreed on a used propane RV fridge. Just be sure it still works before buying, because they are basically irreparable if they don't. And be sure to level it before use. (Very important) They run off just a pilot flame.

With four 45 watt HF panel sets, a perfectly sized battery bank for that would be 300ah. (actually, with your sun, you could probably go a bit larger)

For my RV, I'm using just a single 50 watt panel for my weekend stays. It only gets about 4 hours of sun on it, due to me being in the woods, but that's plenty for the 5 days a week I'm not there. I'll have to bump up size some once I'm there 7 days a week, but I'm pretty dang conservative on power usage, so who knows. Now, I've cheated the last couple times out. I started the generator to run the air conditioner for a couple hours to kill the very humid afternoons we were getting. An hour of the AC on in the evening, and I'm good for the next 23 hours. That's pretty good as far as gas usage goes.

I don't think you're up the wall. If everyone could be a little more resource conservative and open minded, we'd all be in a better situation. Actually, I was wondering how feasible it would be to dig down to get away from the heat on the worst of days.

[Blondie]

Hi Rod,

My nephew found a battery "mister" at Harbor Freight in Las Vegas to do for a swamp cooler. Tried to get one here in Salt Lake and they don't know what I am taling about. The mister will do very well in this super dry area.

Blondie

[jrdavis]

Agreed on a used propane RV fridge. Just be sure it still works before buying, because they are basically irreparable if they don't. And be sure to level it before use. (Very important) They run off just a pilot flame..

a very wise statement.
We had a 30 ft trailer for 8 years and if it wasn't LEVEL Left/right and UP/Down you would get weird things happening.
But the worst was the wind. Make sure you have a wind break or are out of the wind because it will blow that pilot light out and its NEVER good to find that out with a full fridge, 12 hours later :(

JD

[loghousenut]

Blondie,

You'll do fine. Every little mistake will teach a lesson that you'll use later in life. Many of us have made the leap from higher cliffs into greater unknowns. I have a thought or two.

1. Solar is great and you will be able to start as small as you want to and grow as you learn or can afford to. All above is good advice. You might want to subscribe to "Home Power" magazine and develop a relationship with a solar shop like "Backwoods Solar".

2. Good batteries and upkeep will make solar much nicer.

3. I wouldn't want to listen to a generator running hour after hour just for cold food. Propane can do it and if you can spare the cash check out Sun Frost or one of the other refers that is made specifically for living off the grid. If you work in town and have to make the trip every couple of days you can rent a meat locker to keep your frozen stuff frozen. Then every time you bring home an ice chest full of frozen food you are cooling your refer at home. For years during our kerosene lamp and candle stage we lived with an ice box (non-working refrigerator) at home supplied with ice in the form of milk jugs full of water frozen in the locker at town. It seems crude now but at the time it felt normal.

4. As you proceed with the build, you'll put the generator to good use. Be sure you are charging batteries every time you run it to power a skillsaw.

5. You have no idea how lucky you are. Modern technology has made the off-grid lifestyle so much more pleasant than it was 30 years ago. You are entering the good old days.

[Blondie]

Hi All,

I spent 5 hours today running down someone who knew anthing about propane refrigs. And you guessed it, he is 400 miles away but very close to my property. I will wait for his return, call he delivered a propane frig to Kolob Canyon today. Very off the grid as well.

Thanks for the support and info, guys. My family thinks I[have lost it.

Blondie

[edkemper]

Blondie,

When the family thinks your crazy, it might be the time when you are being the smartest. Know what I mean?

[rreidnauer]

Blondie,

When the family thinks your crazy, it might be the time when you are being the smartest. Know what I mean?
I like that!

[Blondie]

Hi Guys!

I have been researching solar batteries on the net, GOSH they are pricy!!!! I take it that converting a stove from gas to propane is not rocket sceince.

Blondie

[loghousenut]

You'll have a local battery shop that can provide you with golf cart batteries and your local propane supplier or good appliance shop can handle the natural gas to propane gas stove conversion. One piece at a time you'll become an expert.

[spiralsands]

I'm with you on the craziness. I moved over 1300 miles away from any family members to build this house on land I own. They think I'm a nutty renegade, but by now, I think they don't have the least doubt that I'm actually going to do this.

Frances

[BoFuller]

Blondie,

When the family thinks your crazy, it might be the time when you are being the smartest. Know what I mean?

Welcome to the LHBA family!

[rreidnauer]

Hi Guys!

I have been researching solar batteries on the net, GOSH they are pricy!!!! I take it that converting a stove from gas to propane is not rocket sceince.

Blondie
Yes, they aren't cheap if buying retail. I was looking at Trojan T-105's or Surrette S-600's to make up my 48v-900ah bank, which would cost around $4800~6400. I just don't want to spend that kind of money on batteries, so I would recommend finding a company who does battery exchanges for telephone companies or data centers. They are required to change out batteries regularly for CYA reasons, and the batteries have plenty of life still in them. I figure if I can get them for a quarter of retail, I'd be doing pretty dang good. If they go bad later on, take them to the recycler. I hauled 11,000 pounds of batteries that were nothing more than lead bricks, and got nearly $1300 for them, and probably could have done even better if I shopped around. (though, my truck was 2000 lbs over gross and I just wanted to get them off)

[Blondie]

WAAAALLLLLLLLL GUYS,

I have run into a "Solar Electrical Engineer." I told him that I had purchased 4 solor panels from Harbor Freight, an inverter and a 2400 watt gas generator. He ased how much I paid and I told him. He then gently told me that I should only have paid $2.00 watt instead of $4.00. OOOOOPPPPPPPSSS. He suggested that I return them if money was an issue...it is. So yesterday I made four, that is count them four trips to return the over priced solar panels, inverter and generator back to Harbor Freight. Why FOUR flipping trips? 'cause I drive a diesel Volkswagon bug, that is why!

This evening I have an appointment to get two 190 watt panels made in Germany. With these two panels I can run an electric frig and a box freezer, the lights and a big screen TV AND the microwave. Then I asked if I needed a generator and he asked "WHY?" "For emergencies." "Oh, why not a diesel generator 'cause the fuel stores better." He told me to get four
golf cart batteries at Cosco. They should run about ~$80.00 a piece.

If it is this easy why aren't more doing this?

Blondie

[rreidnauer]

If it is this easy why aren't more doing this?
Mainly? Consumer ignorance. (that's not an insult, merely a lack of knowledge)

Yea, the Harbor Freight panels are no longer a good deal with quality panel prices in the $2/watt range, but they still sell because it's an convenient package deal with a well marketed company for most new folks.

With these two panels I can run an electric frig and a box freezer, the lights and a big screen TV AND the microwave.
Well, no, you really can't. You will have to manage your usage. You will have limited available power, and you need to produce A LEAST as much as you use. Running a 1200 watt microwave for just 10 minutes will require about 35 minutes of full sun recharging from those two panels. (1200 / 0.167 hrs = 200wh; 190 x 2 - 10% = 342wh; 200wh / 342wh = 0.584 hrs = 35 minutes)
You will have to monitor/record your usage, at least for a little while, until you can assure yourself you're not borrowing more from the (battery) bank than you can afford.

This is the real reason most folks don't do this. They are use to unlimited power.

I'd be curious how many of what size batteries you plan on purchasing.

Oh, and what charge controller.

[Blondie]

Rod,

After not making connections with him last evening, I went out this afternoon. Being a girl who thinks if alittle is good then alittle more is better; I purchased 3 190 watt panels. (They are big suckers and will not fit even part way into my bug. Will have to get a truck to move.) There will also be three small regulators with some digital reading to help me know how much power I am using. The inverter will be a 2400 watt 'puppy.' With the third panel, he suggests that I purchase 8 12 v golf cart batteries. The panels will be placed on a rack made of 2x4's facing south at a 45 degree angle. The panels are made in Germany and have a 30yr warranty.

This will be enough to power a standard, not a two door, refrigerator, a chest freezer, big screen TV, computer, cell phone,
microwave and lights.

Blondie

[drmnoflogs]

Blondie- I was curious to see how this is working out for you and if you've gotten them installed yet? I can't recall if you are done building and using these now or not....?

[Blondie]

Rod,
He hasn't mentioned a charge controller. I called to ask more questions but he was on his way out of town for a week. What do you suggest.....

I am getting ready to move 400 odd miles away. I am slowly building a 30 ft yurt in my condo-backyard. This is taking alot longer than I want, but this is reality.

Blondie

Hey Rod, How is your cabin coming?

[rreidnauer]

Blondie, you mentioned you'll have three small regulators. Those are charge controllers, however, it's not the best way to go in my opinion. I'd much rather have a single controller instead, and if at all possible, an "MPPT" type controller. They cost more, but the price is offset by getting all the watts possible out of your solar panels. A cheap shunt/switching controller will only get about 75% of the rated watts out of your solar panels. So you loose 142 watts in your three 190 watt array with a cheap switching controller. At $2/watt, that's basically $284 thrown away, which could be put into the cost of a MPPT controller over a cheap controller.

The challenge to answer is how big a controller you require, and that depends on whether you'll be expanding the system in the future. As a system grows, the lower volt systems will become unruly, as bigger controllers are required, heavier cables needed, efficiency losses increase. This is why you'll see systems of 24v, 48v, etc. With your three panels, and batteries wired for 12 volts, you'll be generating 47.5 amps, so you'll need a controller of at least 50 amps capacity. If you wanted to add more panels, you'd have to either operate at a higher battery voltage (which means replacing power inverters with ones of the new system voltage) or add another charge controller. Fortunately, many controllers now-a-days are set up to be adjustable between different bank voltages, so as your solar array increases in size, you can continue using the same amperage limited controller by increasing battery bank voltage. (reducing amperage)

Confused yet? I'll keep it simple.
Option #1: Use the "regulators" supplied. $0 additional cost, least efficient.
Option #2: Buy a 60 amp PWM controller (Morningstar TriStar TS-60 for example) $200 & more efficient
Option #3: Buy a 60 amp MPPT controller (Morningstar TriStar MPPT 60 for example) $475 & most efficient

BTW, I'm not pushing Morningstar. It was just one example. Outback, Appollo, Xantrex, etc are all fine choices.

As far as my cabin, still a long ways off. However, weather permitting, I believe I'll be installing my septic the second week of October. Fingers (and toes, legs, arms, and eyes) crossed the weather will play nice.

[spiralsands]

Blondie, dare I ask how much you paid for the new panels from Germany?????

Frances

[Blondie]

Rod,

I'll take option number three! lol I have a lot to learn!!! Thank you so much!

Frances,

I bought them for $390 a 190 watt panel. I have no idea whether it is a good deal or not. I am still in ccontact with the seller if you want some.

Blondie

[rreidnauer]

Considering I paid $700 a piece for my USED 175w panels back in 2006 . . . . .

(yea, that was a gamble I lost on)

[Blondie]

OUCH! ROD. Getting a deal is getting to be more luck than art.