Sun Direct Power (formerly Sound Wisdom) SG-1 5,000 Watt Solar Generator

[Timber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BitkypLc4WU

I saw this ad and watched the video...sounds and looks great!

[lilbluehonda]

It's a box with a battery charger, built in charge controller and cheap 5000 watt inverter with surge to 10,000 momentarily,if that's a heavy duty drill press,table saw and micro wave I'll eat my shorts. It may be able to power stuff for a little while but it can't have much in the way of reserve capacity,it takes way more batteries than could fit in there to run things for an extended period,if you need stand by power for when you lose electricity a generator is still your best choice,Honda makes a line of generators that are make little noise and they come in handy for many things besides emergency power,you can get a generator that runs on propane also that way you wouldn't have to worry about gas going bad

[rreidnauer]

Agreed. Anything advertised as "Solar Generator" is pretty much going to be nothing more than a waste of your money. They prey on the public's ignorance of how solar equipment works. Yes, you can have all that stuff shown running, but that battery is getting beat up by drawing way over it's rated discharge rate. By the end of that video, it was probably nearly dead. If he pushed any harder on either the drill or saw, I bet the inverter would have dropped out on low volts. (notice how slow he cut/drilled that little board) Overall battery life will be very short continuing with that type of abuse.

[StressMan79]

but it comes in a wood case, with three different finishes no less!

[Timber]

but it comes in a wood case, with three different finishes no less!

marketing ... sure seemed good to me

[NeoViking]

It's a box with a battery charger, built in charge controller and cheap 5000 watt inverter with surge to 10,000 momentarily,if that's a heavy duty drill press,table saw and micro wave I'll eat my shorts. It may be able to power stuff for a little while but it can't have much in the way of reserve capacity,it takes way more batteries than could fit in there to run things for an extended period,if you need stand by power for when you lose electricity a generator is still your best choice,Honda makes a line of generators that are make little noise and they come in handy for many things besides emergency power,you can get a generator that runs on propane also that way you wouldn't have to worry about gas going bad

Start munching, lilbluehonda. You watched that inverter power 3,960 watts of equipment at once, and it did it over and over for take after take while we shot that video. The microwave's 1200 watts, the table saw pulls 1800, the drill press takes 960at sound-wisdom.com you can watch the latest model drive 5,000 watts of equipment at our veterinary dealer's cattle barn in Seminole, OK.

You're also dead wrong about the inverter. We tested "cheap" inverters, and the one we selected was the most expensive. We didn't choose it because it was expensive, we chose it because it passed the most sensitive equipment test: driving an LCD projector of 1600 x 1200 resolution. All the others made the image shimmer; with that inverter, it looked exactly like we'd plugged it into the wall, even up close.

You're also wrong about the surge being momentary. Yes, running an inverter at peak power will kill it fairly quickly, but that one has balls and backbone and will take a lot of killing.

You're also wrong about the charge controllers. They're built into the solar panel cables, each controller running one panel. If we'd built them into the main electronics, you couldn't add solar panels because you'd be beyond the amperage the controllers could handle. Did you even pay attention to that video?

You also didn't bother to listen to the part that explains that you can add as many batteries and solar panels as you like. OF COURSE a portable system never has the reserve capacity for long haul work, but ours is the ONLY one in the world you can add as many batteries and panels as you like, even from other companies. Our manual even shows you how to hook them up, even if you didn't buy them from us. Most people can't write a check for twenty two years' electric bill (the average cost) to simply switch to solar. They have to start somewhere, and ALL the other solar generators on the market limit your growth to "nothing very useful." Ours gives you a starting point that you can build on, even up to taking your whole house off the grid.

Your advice on a generator being the best bet is also little short of stupid. Gas generators put 4,000 Americans a year in the hospital, and 400 in the morgue, partly due to people like you giving "advice." When the power goes out long-term, you then have the problem of dangerous gasoline storage: if you have enough gas to go a week, you're breaking laws in most states, and inviting a very nasty fire. Oh, and if the power's out for very many days, the water often goes out, too, because it's on the same 120v grid in most places. How do you put out a fire then?

Then, if the power goes out for very many months, which is ENTIRELY realistic given NASA and NOAA's warnings about the solar flares next year, you need to rebuild your genny. Where will you get parts? Who will do the work? Have you even thought beyond the gadgets you find so familiar but require an entire industrial civilization to keep running?

It doesn't sound like it. How about you leave technical questions to people who know something, eh?

[NeoViking]

Agreed. Anything advertised as "Solar Generator" is pretty much going to be nothing more than a waste of your money. They prey on the public's ignorance of how solar equipment works. Yes, you can have all that stuff shown running, but that battery is getting beat up by drawing way over it's rated discharge rate. By the end of that video, it was probably nearly dead. If he pushed any harder on either the drill or saw, I bet the inverter would have dropped out on low volts. (notice how slow he cut/drilled that little board) Overall battery life will be very short continuing with that type of abuse.

No, Rod, we use golf cart batteries that are designed for that heavy load, and have yet to have one fail. 5,000 watts is only 416 amps of 12v DC, and our batteries, cables, and terminals don't even get warm on that load. The customers that draw lightly on their system use only one pair of golf cart batteries, and those that really work their systems have banks of up to twelve pairs. The "discharge rate" you used to sound smart is only used as an example to show how long a battery will give off that amount of power before being drained. The battery in your car gives up several hundred amps every time you start it; does it die from that "abuse?" Of course not, and our batteries are designed to take that much power and give it back, day after day.

And we originally tried the video with thicker wood (2 x 6), but it added almost twenty seconds to it, and we needed it short. No, the inverter did NOT sound a low voltage alarm. Do you actually know anything about this stuff, or just like to impress people by deriding what you don't know?

When you build something for someone, are you preying on their ignorance of how to build? Kinda depends on how well you build it, doesn't it? Call us sometime, don't tell us who you are, and start asking questions, and you'll see pretty quick that not only do we NOT prey on anyone's ignorance, we educate them. Our sales cycle is about four weeks from the first phone call to the purchase, because our customers go away and research everything we told them, and find out it was rock solid truth. 918/612-4090 sound-wisdom.com

[NeoViking]

but it comes in a wood case, with three different finishes no less!

Actually, it comes with any Minwax oil-based stain you like. We can also trim it in several colors, now. sound-wisdom.com

[StressMan79]

yeah, lilblue. you are dumb. ;)

[StressMan79]

rod is a huge moron...!
haha
(guess I am too)

[Admin]

NeoViking has been banned for violating our Terms of Service (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forum-guidelines-and-terms-service): #4, #11, #12, #19, #23, and possibly more (like not "insinuating" that someone is stupid). We're serious when we say no promoting products or commercial links, and we're serious when we say treat people with respect.

Thanks for your understanding, and have a great evening :)

Best regards,
-The Mgt.

[loghousenut]

Makes me wanna go out and buy one o them New Viking things... What was it they was selling anyway? Oh that's right, they was selling fly traps that you bait with vinegar (please excuse the obvious reference to one of my Fathers favorite old sayings).

[Timberwolf]

NeoViking has been banned for violating our Terms of Service (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forum-guidelines-and-terms-service): #4, #11, #12, #19, #23, and possibly more (like not "insinuating" that someone is stupid). We're serious when we say no promoting products or commercial links, and we're serious when we say treat people with respect.

Thanks for your understanding, and have a great evening :)

Best regards,
-The Mgt.

Our Mgt.... ROCKS!

[panderson03]

agreed. Our MGMT rocks!

thanks for keeping these forums a great place to come to:)

[edkemper]

Pretty cool to have so many like minded people in the family.

[rreidnauer]

My, I missed a lot while I was away. Sorry I won't get the chance at a one-on-one debate now, but I'll defend what my previous "don't know" comment with some facts.

If you ran that 3960 watts for an hour, it would take 16.5 hours to recharge to full capacity with the two 120w included panels, and that's assuming 100% efficiency, which it will not be, so with battery leakage losses, cable losses, charger and inverter losses, figure more like 18.5 hours, or roughly 3.5 solar days. (figuring typ 5 hr solar day) Got that? 3.5 days charging to run the wattage he mentioned for a single hour. (I guess you could cut that time down some with a solar tracker, but then this gadget is becoming a whole lot less portable then)

Of course that's a mute point, since running at 3960 watts for an hour would have long exceeded battery capacity. More of my "lack of knowledge" tells me that his 230ah pack would be flat before it would reach an hour. Being generous, because I'm going with 13.8 volts, which it would not be under load, 3960 watts at that voltage is 287 amps, but that doesn't account for inverter losses that we'll assume are 5%, so actual battery drain would be 302 amps. That means the battery would be flat at 46 minutes.

Oops, but wait, he leaves out yet another little detail. Discharge rate. The faster you discharge a battery, the lower it's capacity. (amp-hours) So his 230ah battery, drawing at the ridiculous discharge rate of C0.76, wouldn't even last the 46 minutes. Maybe, MAYBE 25 minutes would be a rough guess. (I have to guess, because no company would ever rate a battery at such an extreme discharge rate) Deep-cycle batteries are typically rate their amp-hours at a discharge rate of C20, which means a 20 hour discharge time, or easier math, 1/20th the rated capacity, in this case 11.5 amps for this 230ah battery bank. Do I even need to talk about if he were to discharge at 5000 watts?

Oh yea, and did I mention cycle life (the number of times a battery can be recharged) drops with deeper discharging?

More icing for the cake, while he was defending not heating up the batteries and cables, he fully ignores that drawing down a battery below 70~75% of capacity begins a sulfation process, which only gets worse with deeper discharge and length of time it remains discharged. (for example: 3.5 days to recharge mentioned above) This plate damage cuts into overall capacity over time.

And while I'm showing off my lacking electrical knowledge, I will tell you he's not even drawing 3960 watts, nor even 3800 watts as mentioned in the video. He's quoting rated wattage of the equipment. Rated wattage isn't realistic, since an unloaded motor (like a free-wheeling saw and drill) is drawing far less power that it's rating. This is also why the video shows cutting and drilling slowly, as it keeps the current down. What he needed was a set of watt meters on the equipment for real life numbers.

In regards to expansion, what system isn't expandable? He says you'd exceed the charger capacity on a conventional system if one were to add additional panels. Well yea, duh. What is he doing? That's right boys and girls, he's adding chargers. And you can do the same on a conventional system. That argument is pointless. Going back to my preying on ignorance, he is trying to convince people he has the capacity on the basic, unexpanded system. "5000 watts with 10,000 watt reserve" means nothing without mentioning expanding the batteries and panels. That is the deception.

Comparing high-amp draw starting batteries (which only discharge for a few seconds and are recharged almost immediately by a high output alternator) to deep-cycle batteries at similar amperages over vast time periods? Do I even need to address that?

I do owe an answer though. Yes, I know a whole bunch about "this stuff."

[Timberwolf]

I'd just like to point out that our Rod Reidnauer also ROCKS. ;)

[jrdavis]

just nodding my head..
ok, maybe sometimes shaking it too.... with Yeah, what He said.
Wow.

[edkemper]

Rod,

When you're finished researching this subject, could you post what you've learned? <smile>

I agree, you rock.

[StressMan79]

I stand by my previous statement ;) (you all will give Rod a big head)

[Admin]

Hi Everyone,

Last week the Log Home Builders Association received an email from Joshua Daniels of Sound Wisdom, demanding a takedown of this thread. We present his email below in its entirety, unedited except for removing his contact information.

We are posting his email in the interest of transparency and will be posting our reply shortly.

-The Mgt.





Date: Friday, September 2, 2011
Subject: You're publishing libel.

The post on your forum at http://community.loghomebuilders.org/showthread.php?8813-Sound-Wisdom-s-SG-1-5-000-Watt-Solar-Generator/page2 by user rreidnauer contains legally actionable libel, falsely accusing our organization of deceptive trade practices.

Here’s the worst offending statement, though the whole post is an accusation of deliberate lying about out product: “"5000 watts with 10,000 watt reserve" means nothing without mentioning expanding the batteries and panels. That is the deception.”

Every system we ship runs 5,000 watts of equipment powered by a set of test batteries as part of our inspection before packing. That’s fully loaded, working equipment that’s pulling 5,000 watts out of the system. We only have one set of test batteries, and it functions for about twenty tests before it needs recharging. We also state repeatedly on our website that such a load can only be sustained for less than an hour by one set of batteries, and that more batteries must be added to use the system so heavily for longer periods of time. Meaning, we can prove his statement false to any jury in the land, and the electrical knowledge he displays in his posts proves that he knew it was false when he made it. As the publisher, the libel responsibility lies mainly on you, unfortunately, so it is with your organization that we must take up this issue.

Mr. Reidnauer is also correct in stating that the rated wattage of the equipment wasn’t the actual wattage being used. In the video shot in the veterinary barn, the load was a microwave on high, two heaters, and a branding iron, which pulled their full wattage the whole time: they can’t do anything less. Given the electrical knowledge he displayed, we can also prove that to be a deliberate lie.

We originally registered for your forum only to answer other false statements about our system, and our registration was banned for “selling” in the forums. If you choose to hold merchants helpless to answer false statements about their products and business practices, you make the libel published by you from your users deliberate.

We don’t believe you intended to do that. However, it is the result of these posts and decisions. It’s in the spirit of resolution that we’re contacting you now.

That whole thread contributes nothing to anyone’s understanding any longer. If we may make a friendly suggestion, just remove the whole thread. We got to answer the original false statements that were made about our products, and what came after that is irrelevant if it gets removed. If it stays, it’s libel. It’s also a violation of your Terms of Service, in some of the same ways your moderator cited in banning our registration. Specifically, #4 comes to mind. As for advertising, when someone asks for information, if pointing out where it can be found is advertising, you’re doing a disservice to your users, which we also don’t believe you really intend to do. Or is it only advertising if someone from the company in question posts it? If I ask a friend to do it, is it then not advertising? Odd, at least.

We’re always interested in peaceful resolution of issues, while it can be done. Please stop publishing that false and defamatory thread.

Joshua Daniels
Sound Wisdom Life Products
Sound-Wisdom.com
A division of the Sea Lions Foundation
SeaLionsFoundation.com

[Admin]

Mr. Daniels:

I'm sorry that you are unhappy with the way the discussion about your product (the Sound Wisdom SG1 5000 watt solar generator) has turned out. However I'm afraid that you have at least partly brought it upon yourself by accusing our users of stupidity ("little short of stupid") and attacking these potential customers who are simply wondering if your product can in fact live up to your claims.

The internet has a funny way of figuring things out, given a little time and discussion on the part of smart, interested people. If your product is what it claims to be, why would you want to limit the discussion to only your responses? Perhaps some of your satisfied customers will drop in and join the discussion, and post their own videos of your product in use?

All of your accusations of libel and defamation are baseless. Your not-so-veiled threats to legal action only make you appear to be a bullying, immature crybaby who cannot stand having an open public discussion about your products, your "organization" and your claims.

I direct you to the Communications Decency Act of 1996, Section 230 (See Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act) and EFF (http://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230)), under which the provider of an interactive computer service (such as an online discussion forum) enjoys broad immunity from claims such as yours relating to information provided by a third party (such as our users). In fact the courts have ruled in favor of the providers in such cases EVEN when they have been warned about potentially libelous or defamatory content (Zeran v. America Online, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeran_v._AOL), 129 F.3d 327 (4th Cir. 1997)). This immunity is so broad that any claims in this area are unlikely to survive even the most perfunctory of pretrial proceedings.

Further, the Log Home Builders Asssociation is a Washington state non-profit entity, and as such is covered by Washington's ANTI-SLAPP (http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/anti-slapp-law-washington) (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) statute (RCW 4.24.525). Not only are we immune to lawsuits pursuing frivolous claims of libel and defamation related to discussions in the public interest, we are also entitled to attorney's fees in such cases, and a $10,000 penalty to discourage further violations of our free speech rights. Since we have no nexus in your home state of Oklahoma, it is unlikely that you could successfully pursue your claims anywhere but Washington, making you subject to these strict anti-SLAPP laws and related sanctions and penalties.

In addition to the Washington anti-SLAPP laws, making such ridiculous claims in an actual court of law would put almost any claimant squarely into Rule 11 sanction territory (see both Federal and Washington state rules of civil procedure). Especially after you have been notified (via this communication) about the applicable code above.


We originally registered for your forum only to answer other false statements about our system, and our registration was banned for “selling” in the forums. If you choose to hold merchants helpless to answer false statements about their products and business practices, you make the libel published by you from your users deliberate.

We don’t believe you intended to do that. However, it is the result of these posts and decisions. It’s in the spirit of resolution that we’re contacting you now.


You were not banned for "selling". When you showed up to defend and make further claims about your product, everyone here was interested in hearing what you had to say. It was your disrespectfulness towards the other users that created the problem. Yes, we have very strict rules against advertising and selling on our forums, but those are usually fixed with a friendly email rather than banning someone. It's only the bullying, boorish, name-calling jerks who get banned without friendly warnings first.


That whole thread contributes nothing to anyone’s understanding any longer. If we may make a friendly suggestion, just remove the whole thread. We got to answer the original false statements that were made about our products, and what came after that is irrelevant if it gets removed. If it stays, it’s libel. It’s also a violation of your Terms of Service, in some of the same ways your moderator cited in banning our registration. Specifically, #4 comes to mind.


Yes, we can understand you wanting us to "remove the whole thread". A quick peek on the internet shows that this discussion ranks quite highly in just about every search query for your product:

Sound Wisdom Solar (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1494&bih=876&source=hp&q=sound+wisdom+solar&pbx=1&oq=sound+wisdom+solar&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1083l4955l0l5118l24l17l3l0l0l0l338l3011l0.5 .8.1l14l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=74e371c96a48f4b)
Sound Wisdom SG-1 (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=sound+wisdom+sg-1&pbx=1&oq=sound+wisdom+sg-1&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=14516l17145l2l17345l9l8l5l0l0l0l261l614l0.1 .2l3l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=74e371c96a48f4b&biw=1494&bih=841)
Sound Wisdom Solar Generator (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&source=hp&q=sound+wisdom+solar+generator&pbx=1&oq=sound+wisdom+solar+generator&aq=f&aqi=q-w1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=15515l18971l3l19113l21l15l6l0l0l1l306l1904l 0.6.3.1l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=74e371c96a48f4b&biw=1494&bih=841)

I imagine that now (or soon) you will be getting calls from potential customers who are asking questions that are similar to those raised in this discussion. I'm sure you would like to sweep this conversation under the rug and have it go away entirely.

The only one who violated rule #4 in that conversation was you, and as such we will be keeping this discussion up. If nothing else it will serve as a warning to the general public about how poorly you respond to criticism of your product.

You are a bully, and we do not negotiate or compromise with bullies. We stand prepared to defend our first amendment rights as providers of this forum, and if you insist on continuing with your baseless claims we are prepared to vigorously defend ourselves and to pursue every remedy within our reach against you.

Please note that our defense would not be limited to merely presenting our legal case to a court. We will go on the offensive. An absolute defense against claims of libel is that the speech in question is in fact provably true. Although the Log Home Builders Association has not yet advanced an opinion regarding your claims, it would be fairly easy for one of our members to buy one of your products and document the actual performance in real-world conditions. Or perhaps locate an existing customer of yours who would be willing to share their product with our engineers who can perform a proper review? It would be fun to disassemble one of your products, document the components inside, research the limitations and costs of the various components, and post the results on Youtube for all to see, regardless of whether the results were positive or negative.


We’re always interested in peaceful resolution of issues, while it can be done.

If you are truly interested in a peaceful resolution, you should cease your juvenile attempt at "playing lawyer" immediately, apologize, and go away before the Streisand Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect) comes into play.

Regards,

-The Mgt.

[loghousenut]

Very informative thread you've got there. I had never heard of the Streisand Effect before today. Would the Streisand Effect work with good publicity or does it only take on a life of its own with the kind of publicity that a person would want to suppress?

Personally I've never had any experience with the Sound Wisdom SG1 5000, so I'll just stay out of it.

[Timber]

wow.. them's what you call opening a can of worms

i was going to suggest killing the thread .... but thought it might be more informative not to
i saw this video ad on a site i visit ....
does the guy know Rod works in the solar industry??? guess not

well i saved some people....i will have a collection plate for all the
unawares ... cash n carry .... i dont do pay-pal

i will be sure to give rod his share :D

wow i just read the can of whoop a$$ the admin handed out to said threats

oh the streisand effect< she aint the fat lady singing is she? sorry barb, i couldn't resist
nice home too!

[merc66rkm]

I think Sound Wisdom got burned...ouch. Good job Rod!

[Timber]

I think Sound Wisdom got burned...ouch. Good job Rod!

i think this site and thread=sound wisdom

[edkemper]

Gotta love what Skip designed and that it's still run the same way by the present administration of this list. Beautiful work guys. The law is very powerful when you know what you're doing.

[donjuedo]

The Streisand Effect has happened to her at least twice.

I used to live in Beaufort, South Carolina. It's a small, old town, and Ms. Streisand rented a local home there, in the historic district, while making a movie in the area. (There's a positive story that goes with how she left the place -- absolutely immaculate). Well, one morning the Marine Corps Air Station, based in Beaufort, flew jets nearby, and she called the base commander. The top brass took her call and she requested they not make so much noise. The commander apologized politely, asked where she was, and said he'd take care of it.

The next morning, a formation flew in low and loud like thunder, right over downtown and her house in particular. She did not call to complain again. :-)


Peter

[Timber]

i was fishing up in Meadowlark Lake in WY. there is a base near there ... some jets roared by that leaves a rumbling hard to describe bacause of the location up in the big horns

Streisand Effect ....what you want to happen goes viral the opposite

And then there is that youtube video we need someone to do....Rod??

more fuel for truth

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25762973-Amazing-Solar-Generator-Need-Opinions.

[rreidnauer]

WOW! I really need to not go away on weekends anymore!

Look, the guy is unhappy that his bread and butter is getting a bruised reputation, I get that. I merely pointed out lacking information in a video that is mentioned in this thread by the OP. When he decided to criticize my knowledge and weigh insults, I simply answered with facts. He, in one breath, asks if I know anything about "this stuff", while in another, says I have electrical knowledge. Yet, he continues (between regular threats of legal action) to provide deceptive information, such as: "We only have one set of test batteries, and it functions for about twenty tests before it needs recharging." Twenty tests? What? 5 seconds? 30 seconds? a minute? What? It just another baseless claim.

With statements like: "Yes, running an inverter at peak power will kill it fairly quickly, but that one has balls and backbone and will take a lot of killing." and "...and our batteries are designed to take that much power and give it back, day after day." it is this, along with the video missing plenty of factual information, that leads me to call their statements deceptive.

Really, I've been holding back, but I thought that was enough for one post. I offer Joshua some suggestions. Take down the video mentioned at the beginning of this thread. (you know, the one which mentions flat-out false wattage numbers) Also, work on your customer relations. A good company can be graceful during good times, and also on rough roads. His actions here have done nothing to promote his business. Hopefully, he'll see the error of his ways, make the corrections needed, and get back on track.

[Timberwolf]

OMG! I laughed soooo hard reading this.

That made my Monday. :D

[stamic55]

WOW! Awesome

[edkemper]

It's a concept where some "new" self described expert thinks we are a bunch of country bumpkins living in funky little log homes just outside the ghettos. If this one list subject doesn't dispel that, I'd be surprised. It amazes me how many people we have here with some really exceptional expertise.

I again what to hope that after Rod is finished learning about this subject, I hope he'll share with us. <smile>

Rod, I now know far more on this subject thanks to your help and knowledge. I think we all appreciate your help. It also helps us knowing that we have family members that can steer us away from snake oil sales pitches.

[Timber]

thank you also for your imput lilbluehonda
i think your shorts are safe for now!

like Rod says this solar generator might have some good prospects//at least for emergency sakes when power goes out?
certainly not a off the grid system!

So Rod offered the olive branch...good man

this site is for learning..not fighting...
maybe sound wisdom got some sound advice

[rreidnauer]

Well, the physical product he is selling isn't necessarily bad, and I wouldn't call it snake oil. Merely, (and keep in mind, despite Joshua bringing up other videos and portions of his website, it is the video mentioned in this thread that is the topic of this conversation) how it is presented, is what I take issue with. The general public is quite naive when it comes to things electric. Heck, even the function of a common three-way switch in a home will befuddle many folks. It's all too easy to mislead people when it comes to solar and batteries.

Renewable energy equipment and it's performance is all too often overstated. I've had people ask me to build up a materials list for their home, and after spending time to gather their usage data, and spending a few hours calculating up the required equipment, I don't even get a thank you for my efforts because of the shock of what I presented. I don't undercut my numbers, especially the batteries, which are the most vulnerable portion of an RE system as far as irreversible, user-inflicted damage is concerned.

Here is a great example of overstating a piece of equipment. (completely unrelated to SW) Before the advent of the MPPT charge controller, a solar panel with a rating of, lets say, 100 watts, was never able to put out that much wattage to charge a battery in a real world scenario. The reason is, a solar panel is more or less an amperage pump, and voltage is regulated by the battery itself. Looking on the back of a solar panel, and if you know how to read electrical abbreviations, you'd see something like: "Vpmax - 17.7V" What that means is, that is the voltage which maximum power (the rated 100 watts) is created. Quick math divides 100 watts by 17.7 volts to give us 5.65 amps. The difference between amperage at Vpmax and short circuiting the panel is only a 9% difference typically, so that same panel would be putting out roughly 6.16 amps if shorted across it leads. You can see there is little change in amps, and why I refer to solar panels as "amperage pumps." Now, let's go back to using the panel to charge a battery. We connect them together, and surprise, surprise, the voltage from the panel will drop down to battery voltage plus some depending on the state of charge. Let's say the battery voltage is now showing 13 volts while charging off the panel. We know the amperage will be somewhere between 5.65 and 6.16, and figuring the battery voltage is about 73% between 0v and 17.7v, I can calculate the amps at roughly 5.79 amps. Now multiply 5.79 amps by 13 volts, and you get (drum-roll please) 75.27 watts! Hey, what the?!? The salesmen said these were 100 watt panels! What gives?

That's the nature of the beast, and again, how it's all too easy to deceive the public. Up until the the advent of the MPPT controller (which is able to get full or very near full power out of a panel through fancy electronics) I always believed that panels should have been required to state real world values.

[Timber]

that is some of the best spanish i have ever read...

[jrdavis]

darn those "vacuums".....
you can't live in them or even speak in them any more.
way to go Rod....
Ruining it again for us "susceptible" folks. :)
<<tongue firmly in cheek>>

BTW -- I've NEVER understood, how you can ETHICALLY say its a 100W if you can only get 75W. Just IMHO.
JD

[Ghostwalker]

Cool thread. Can I play?

I am really amazed at how many of you love to play the numbers game without having the actual product in your hands so you can give "expert" testimony about it.
No, not amazed...my bad...baffled and astounded is closer to the truth.

So, in light of the foregoing "flame war" - (flame war means you can't discredit the product because you don't have one in your hands, so you try to discredit the person...also known as presenting a logical fallacy), would anyone care to debate me on the subject?
Doesn't "flame wars" violate your terms of service also? I think it does.

Last time I went camping (6/6/2011), my SG1 allowed me to watch two movies on my PC (4 hours@540 watts per hour), make and keep warm coffee for 8 hours (900 watts to brew for 4 minutes, then 48 watts to maintain heat), charge my cell phone (3 watts for 20 minutes), maintain my 135 watt fridge 24/7 for 4 days/nights and ran my electric blanket 8 hours per night. It even recharged my batteries for my flashlight and radio.

The unit is mounted on my Suburban.

A few days ago, I jump-started a bulldozer for the county and the local police have my number in case they need power in an emergency (like a night-time wreck).
I have four 8D batteries and two 120 watt panels and one 235 watt panel that COMPLETELY recharges my system in 6.5 hours of direct sun (no clouds).
Each 8D holds 220 amps or 2,640 watts.
Here, let me do the math for you: that is 10,560 watts or 10 WHOLE KWH's to play with PER NIGHT with no sun to operate right off the panels!
Now, if we divide that 10 KWH by the number of hours required, which in my camping case is 8 - sun down to sun up - I can use slightly over 1 KW per hour. That is 1,000 watt hours per hour. That is 1 WHOLE KW I didn't use those nights!

As for the "cheap inverter" one of you claimed that I PERSONALLY OWN is crap...you are sadly mistaken.
That "cheap inverter" maintains my frig, pc, printer, lamp and my quartz heater for cold mornings without even getting warm when NOT camping. And that is with a 100 foot extension cord running from my Suburban to my house.

So, please...tell me again how your product knowledge of something you DO NOT even own is superior to someone who manufactures it or for that matter, OWNS ONE!

Still wanna play? Do any of you have actual experience or do you just speak from hearsay - what you heard someone else say? Thought so.

Quote by Rod - "That's the nature of the beast, and again, how it's all too easy to deceive the public."

I do believe that all of you self-styled "experts" with ZERO knowledge of the product or how well it performs have succeeded in deceiving the public. Good Job!

[edkemper]

Ghostwalker,

I think I can probably speak for the family, we wish you well wherever it is you go next. <wink>

[Ghostwalker]

Well, thank you edkemper.

You know how nomads and gypsies are...we just go wherever our little feet take us, or friends/clients need us to set the record straight.

Give the "family" my best and have fun with your logging adventures.

[Admin]

Hi Everyone,

Mr. Daniels from Sound Wisdom has asked to be able to respond to the discussion here, and we have agreed to allow him to, as long as there is no further name calling or threats. So the NeoViking account has been "unbanned" and we'll see how it goes.

Let's please try to keep it fun and civil everyone.

Best regards,

-The Mgt.

[loghousenut]

How cool is that. Wouldn't it be nice if this thing turned out the way it hardly ever turns out... Pleasant. I'm ready. If any forum on the net can make it happen, this one can.

[rreidnauer]

I'm can only assume Ghostwalker is NeoViking, due to his posts being written in an uncannily similar pen, but this we'll never be able to prove. In any case, on with my comments.

Why would one have to physically own this product to be able to calculate it's functions? Is it sprinkled with pixie dust and can now function beyond the limits of physics? It's simple math, nothing more. Every RE system designer uses this same math to build a system. In your bid to continue attempts to discredit me, you've done so to yourself.
First mistake: "Each 8D holds 220 amps" The battery doesn't hold "amps". Amperage is an electrical unit of current or flow, not capacity. It's capacity is stated as amp-hours. And you do understand, amp-hours are a value at a given discharge rate, right? The higher the draw (amperage) the lower the capacity. (amp-hours) Stating amp-hours means little if you are drawing beyond the rated discharge rate. This is deceptive.

Second mistake: You claim "two 120 watt panels and one 235 watt panel that COMPLETELY recharges my system in 6.5 hours" Your words. So, very simple math concludes: 10,560 watt-hours divided by 475 watts of solar panels you state you have equals 22 hours and 14 minutes recharge time not even counting efficiency losses. (if SW's inline charge controllers are simple switching style, then its going to be more like 29.6 hours) So what is "completely recharged" then? From what state-of-charge were the batteries before beginning to recharge? Without that information, your statement is completely worthless. This is another bit of deceptive commenting I keep pointing out.

Third mistake: You state "10 WHOLE KWH's to play with PER NIGHT" Again, deceptive. Sure the first night you do, but if it takes over 22+ hours to recharge, it is impossible to have that kind of power available each following night. Further, you are talking of discharging the batteries to 0% state-of-charge. You'll get away with this for a short while, but each time you draw down that far, not only does it reduce the capacity of the battery, it also shortens it's overall lifespan. (decreasing ever more rapidly with deeper discharging)

Furthermore, you are comparing your expanded system to their (or your) base model showcased in the video. Again, this thread was to discuss what was in that video. Sure, you can expand the system to 30 batteries and 4000 watts of panels and you'd have yourself a pretty rockin' system, but this is about bragging of a 5000 watt inverter (supposedly drawing 3800 watts) running on two batteries and 240 watts of panels. Will it do it in the short term? Yes it can. Will it be sustainable? No it won't. Please take my advice. Do some research on battery care. I can assure you it will be very beneficial to your wallet.

I have nothing to gain from whether this product sells or not. I have no ties to the RE industry, so I'm not a competitor. I am just some guy who has a pretty extensive electrical knowledge, who is very much in to RE, that sees a lot of wiz-bang claims in this green-revolution push. With that, I leave it to the readers to decide who has what to gain from statements made in this thread.

[donjuedo]

Well said, Rod. Using the units correctly is an important sign of credibility, and often underestimated. And math is either done correctly or it's not. There's no room for opinions in basic math.

I look forward to reading Ghostwalker/NeoViking's measured reply.


Peter

[jrdavis]

Rod -- It sounded to me like 'the ghost' was almost OFFERING a R&D unit like his for you to test. Then maybe you could write an EVAL for all of us (less knowledgeable ones).
I like to SEE and BEHOLD and this sounds like their perfect opportunity to prove it in a LAB type enviornment....
Sort of make a believer out of you (us) and be good advertising too.

awaiting Great things.
JD

[spiralsands]

"Play the numbers game"? The "numbers game", I guess is electrical theory. And electrical theory is mathematical. I'm an electronics technician. I had to learn that "numbers game" before I even peeked into an air traffic control radar transmitter. Rod's an engineer. I guess if electrical theory was a "numbers game", Rod would win with high score. Salespeople don't really have to know how to play the "numbers game". They just have to make the talking points convincing.

[Timber]

http://www.coyotecottage.com/powerplant/system.htm

here is a system that works at a cost of $4,000 in 2003

[Mosseyme]

This has been interesting to watch. Now we have SW silence. Rod your knowledge of the subject makes me feel like I do when my nuke eng son in law starts talking nuke.

[jrdavis]

Must have just been a "ghostwalker"??????????? :)

[Blondie]

Rod, Spiralsands and all,

I am not so sure that the "ad man" did such a good job. My field is cardiac hemodynamics a far fly from anything that could pertain to a solar disussion. I watched the video quite a while ago and thought "This is alittle too good to be true."
I go with Rod. PERIOD.

Blondie

[Steve Wolfe]

Hi Francis. I got a chuckle out of your post since I’m one of those…Yuk….you know…..“sales people”. You are so right for the most part when it comes to retail sales. The good news is that there are a few of us engineers who sell to engineers so we get to do both the numbers and talk the talk. LOL

LD, it would it be great if SW offered a unit for evaluation but I wouldn’t hold your breath. Hey, stranger things have happened.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Sometimes the old adage.....better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to speak or type on the internet for that matter, and remove all doubt. Rod I'm very impressed, thank you sir! I always find it difficult when there is a difference of opinion or in this case fact and one party seems more intent on insults than information. I've always noticed, even when I don't grasp the technical aspects, the one simply stating their case and not in a derogatory manner is the truthful one.

Reading this entire thread also reminded me of a story. A gentleman was at the airport terminal in a long line waiting to check in and board the plane. When he was finally second in line he listened with amazement as the gentleman in front of him berated the airline employee for one thing and then another. As he stepped up for his turn he said, "Ma'am I just watched and heard that entire exchange, can you please give me your supervisor's name and contact information? I wish to let your supervisor know how valuable you are to this airline and the professional manner in which you handle challenging customers. You know only deserve recognition you deserve a promotion." At which point the airline associate replied, "Oh that's ok Sir that gentleman is flying to Wisconsin but his bags are headed to California" :cool:

[SDP]

Guys, we seriously have to thank you. You know the old adage, "even bad publicity is good publicity?" Well, it's true. Since you put this up, our business has grown tremendously, and our 4K Military/Marine Hardened solar powered backup system is moving so fast we can't keep them in stock. http://sun-direct.net/store.htm We've secured dealers for the Caribbean and West Africa, and our dealer in South Texas is offering a power trailer with a hybrid 4K/windmill system that you tow behind a truck. He's got attention from the State of Texas AND the Federal government, and been asked to put in bids on supplying those trailers to the Park Service and a variety of first responder agencies.

And, frankly, we couldn't have done it without you. Thanks again, guys.

[SDP]

Guys, we seriously have to thank you. You know the old adage, "even bad publicity is good publicity?" Well, it's true. Since you put this up, our business has grown tremendously, and our 4K Military/Marine Hardened solar powered backup system is moving so fast we can't keep them in stock. http://sun-direct.net/store.htm We've secured dealers for the Caribbean and West Africa, and our dealer in South Texas is offering a power trailer with a hybrid 4K/windmill system that you tow behind a truck. He's got attention from the State of Texas AND the Federal government, and been asked to put in bids on supplying those trailers to the Park Service and a variety of first responder agencies.

And, frankly, we couldn't have done it without you. Thanks again, guys.

[rreidnauer]

Welcome back NeoViking/Ghostwalker/SDP. Glad to have helped! Should I expect a commission for all I've done?

Sent from my Galaxy Edge+ using Tapatalk

[loghousenut]

Welcome back NeoViking/Ghostwalker/SDP. Glad to have helped! Should I expect a commission for all I've done?

Sent from my Galaxy Edge+ using Tapatalk

Or maybe a Medal.

[rawson]

Welcome back NeoViking/Ghostwalker/SDP. Glad to have helped! Should I expect a commission for all I've done?

Sent from my Galaxy Edge+ using Tapatalk

I'll second that. Maybe a Bit coin deposit. Plus discount to LHBA members.

[dakota.abe]

if you are interested in solar power, the Aug 2016 issue of Consumer Reports magazine has a good article on solar. they give info on options and how to find out what may be best for you. if you don't have the magazine a library near you probably does.

[Timber]

Wait a minute...i started this "dont tread on me" and i am looking for my due benefits.��