The wonders of modern lighting

[rreidnauer]

In the process of reconstructing my RV for four-season, off-grid use, I've been converting all the lighting to more efficient options. So let's look at the before and after.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/wattage.jpg
Before, the trailer was equipped with your standard incandescent 18 watt 921 style bulbs in all it's fixtures. Most fixtures had two bulbs each.
After, is a mix of LED and CFL lighting. As you can see, a few lights have been removed, and wattage has been cut by 69%, while total lumens is still 96% of before. (note a few lights have even been eliminated as they weren't needed)
The 13 watt CFLs do the grunt work, at about 700 lumens each, for main ceiling lights. Combinations of 2 and 3 watt LED lamps handle the rest of the lighting. (at 160 and 210 lumens each respectively)
More on the LED lights. The wafer style multi-element LEDs shown below are incredible. The amount of light that emanates from these seems almost impossible for the given wattage. I hope they hold up over the long run.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/led1.jpg
This is one of the 3 watt, 15 LED units. (by the way, the light reflected is coming from the 2 watt models in the undercabinet light I installed earlier) I modified the units for the standard wedge base.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/led2.jpg
And here is an undoctored photo of a pair of the 3 watt LEDs lit. It's very close to, if not the same as, the pair of 18 watt bulbs it replaced. The color is very good too.
For the dining table, I put up a small, three lamp chandelier. I originally installed three 13w CFLs, but that pushed wattage above the original 36 watts, and really, it was way too bright. So, I just received tonight some LED bulbs (Sunmia clear cone) which look more like conventional lamps. They are also 3 watts, and 210 lumens each. That will be brighter than the original two 921 bulbs, at 17% the power. Color temperature is a bit higher than I like, (3200K) but I think it'll be fine. I can't wait to see how they look. They aren't cheap though, at $27 a piece.
One incadecent light has remained though. The bath vanity light is still powered by a pair of 921 bulbs. So far I can't find anything that I like which makes sufficient quality light at the mirror. A CFL bulb would be OK, but I can't find a fixture I'd like to use with them, so for now, the old bulbs have survived the change-over.
Back to cost. The CFLs are like $9 ea., the wafer LEDs are $9 and $10 each, and those Sunmia bulbs at $27, and a waterproof LED lamp for the shower at a whopping $63, I got about $260 in bulbs alone. But getting back to "it's easier (and cheaper) to conserve than it is to produce", by having cut my power usage by two thirds, I can reduce the amount of required solar panels, batteries, etc. Production savings far out-weigh the cost of the lamps.
Finally, modern, efficient lighting with aesthetically acceptable light are a reality. Now, just got to wait for the costs to come down to be truly viable for the mainstream market.

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Not being sarcastic, but is that too much light? I use six-50 lumen lights and my place is plenty bright. No, it's not lit-up like a modern house in the average subdivision, but 300 lumens evenly distributed over less than 1,000 square feet is doing pretty well. I do have to admit I have my eye on four - 300 lumen lights.

G'pa

[rreidnauer]

Sure, I *could* have gotten by on far less, but saving energy doesn't mean I also have to give up quality of life. While living by the light of a kerosene lantern's flame can be romantic, it's not necessarily what I'd want for the every day. But yes, for the most part it is too bright, and I'd never have everything on all at once.
The goal I had set out for was to cut energy consumption by at least 50% without sacrificing light intensity and quality. I'm happy to say I far exceeded that goal, and as an added bonus, I think light quality actually is better now than before. LEDs have made impressive leaps and bounds lately, and now it's just a matter of time until they follow the trend of the CFLs in price.

[hemlock77]

Rod;

I have a lighting unit for the bathroom, that came with my craigslist vanity and medicine cabinet. It is the style that hangs on the wall above medicine cabinet with 4 fixtures tat you can adjust their angle. This is basically gives extra light for shaving, brushing teeth etc. What low wattage light would you recommend for this application. Primary goal is to keep wattage to bare minimum yet provide ample light for the task at hand.
Stu
<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/">http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/</a>

[Shark]

Good job Rod, those are impressive numbers.
When we movde into
our place, we had to buy all new ligfhtbulbs anyways, so we bought
CFL's. Def seem to keep the electric bill lower.

[StressMan79]

Unfortunately, living on grid does not encourage using high-efficiency bulbs. My electric bill is 25% "connection fee" and the like. If I cut my use by 1/3, my cost only reduceds by 25%. This lack of proportionality does not encourage conservation. May be production taxes will cause plants to remove this unfair surcharge. I am all for paying for the connection, but this has been paid for for decades. anyway, off grid, if you use less, your cost is less, proportionally. FWIW.

[rreidnauer]

Rod;

I have a lighting unit for the bathroom, that came with my craigslist vanity and medicine cabinet. It is the style that hangs on the wall above medicine cabinet with 4 fixtures tat you can adjust their angle. This is basically gives extra light for shaving, brushing teeth etc. What low wattage light would you recommend for this application. Primary goal is to keep wattage to bare minimum yet provide ample light for the task at hand.
Stu
<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/">http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/</a>

There's not many options for a vanity, and it's hard to beat incadecent lamps for the quality and intensity of light. While LED lights are the most efficient, they are still limited in brightness, as well as limited to somewhat directional light, and that's probably not what you would be looking for. (tends to cast shadows) Those Sunmia bulbs I just got are pretty good for omnidirectional light, but only put out 30~40 watt comparible light, and I think they are only available in low voltage. The only other option is CFLs, which run about 25% power of comparable incadecent lamps. Fortunately, not only do they come in an assortment of color temperature choices, they also come in different sizes now too. I just bought a four pack of 13w warm white mini CFLs at Lowes for under $10. I think they are 600 lumens a piece. That would work well in a vanity fixture.

[hemlock77]

Thanks. Thats great to hear that price at lowes. Through the month of Dec as am employee I get a 20% discount on all lighting supplies. Might be a good time to stock up.

I have been doing the research on solar. The way the rules are structured here in Ct. the only way you can tie to the grid or qualify for incentives for that mater is to hire one of the state authorized solar installers. There are less that 40 of them statewide. Of course limited competition translates into high end pricing, in my opinion price gouging. This not only wipes out the incentives, it puts the financial viability of solar outside the realm of my income level.

At this point my only option is to stay off grid. This is going to require a good deal of conservation, since it is much more cost effective to conserve than to create energy. We are already looking at using propane for stove,hot water, dryer and backup heat(wood stove will be primary). I am also entertaining the idea of a chest refrigerator conversion(still trying to get Norma to sign off on that one).High draw items like welder and compressor will be done off generator, since those are only occasional use items. Right now I am trying to work the lighting plan so we can get an accurate picture of what our demand will be. Most of the models out there seem to be geared more towards grid tied systems, so that is of limited guidance.
Stu
<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/">http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/</a>

[rreidnauer]

Unfortunately, living on grid does not encourage using high-efficiency bulbs. My electric bill is 25% "connection fee" and the like. If I cut my use by 1/3, my cost only reduceds by 25%. This lack of proportionality does not encourage conservation. May be production taxes will cause plants to remove this unfair surcharge. I am all for paying for the connection, but this has been paid for for decades. anyway, off grid, if you use less, your cost is less, proportionally. FWIW.

Very true Peter, at least up until now. I've been hearing back from quite a few people that there is a notice in their electric bills stating that the costs will be going up XX%, so I guess the cost cap is finally coming off of producers. (was rumored to happen a couple years ago) A lot of them are like, "What does that mean? It's going to cost me $XXX now every month?" And I'm like, "Duh, what do you think I've been trying to tell you, and why I been gearing up for independent living?"
So, using ChainsawGrandpa's line, "You are only paranoid until something happens, then you are well prepared" really hit the mark this time! :-)
Usually, I get a follow up question like, "What should I do?" Simple: CONSERVE! It's not that hard to do, and still live pretty much the same way. Turn off lights and whatever else when you leave a room. (obviously, just changing to CFLs is a 75% savings on lighting energy alone) Take the time to check/repair/replace seals on windows and doors. Don't stand in front of the refrigerator with the door gaping while you decide what you'd like to eat. Adjust the thermostat just a degree or two from that "perfect" temperature you have it set at. It's not that bg of a deal, it's just a matter of not being completely lazy. I just don't know why something as simple as flipping a light switch when you walk past it is such a problem for people. But then, the same is true for someone turning in front of me who can't signal either. It's truly the ultimate example of complete laziness. Let me share a perfect example.
There is a woman at work who was the biggest squawker of these energy price increases. The thing that makes her special is, at lunch, (and this happens regularly) she will open the freezer in the break room, take out whatever she's got, and walk away leaving the freezer door open to unpackage whatever she has. When I walk over and slam the door shut, she's like, "I was going to close that in a minute." Wow . . . . .

Stu,
Yea, Take advantage of that 20% discount. I'm sad that Lowes no longer has that 10% discount coupon they use to have in the post office moving packets any more. :-(
Yea, the limited licensed installers thing just means a monopoly. On top of that, they know you're getting a gov't rebate, and they also know they can inflate their labor fees in accordance. You do have to take it up the yin-yang if you want to be grid tied.

[rreidnauer]

OK, ran into a problem the other day. I wanted to put the linoleum down in the bathroom, and wanted to get it warm in the rig to do so. So for that, I wanted to run the big furnace. In doing so, I wanted to apply "shore power" to the rig so I wouldn't run down the battery. (the blower motor is a pretty power hungry device) Well, when I did, it smoked every one of my 12v CFLs. Apparently, they don't tolerate anything above 12.? well, and the trailer's converter probably pushes voltage up to 14 or so. The LED lighting are working just fine as expected, since they are all rated 10~30VDC.
Now I'm wondering if I can repair/modify the lamps to accept a more tolerable voltage range, or possibly install some sort of regulator in the light fixtures themselves to protect the lamps. At $10 a pop, it's a pricey problem.

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Those things are power hogs! A friend has his trailer at my site and he's in the process of replacing his incandescent with LED, but the blower motor for the propane furnace is sucking his batteries dry! any advice for finding a DC blower?
-G'pa

[rreidnauer]

First, update on the blown CFLs. Turns out the culprit is the trailer's on-board power converter. The regulator seems to be shot, and voltage throughout he RV is running at 20.8 volts!!! (at least when the power hungry furnace isn't running) So the poor 12v CFLs didn't stand a chance. From what I gathered from the net, the brand converter I have is a horrible piece of junk. I have two options. Disable the converter, and have a separate battery charger. Or, replace the converter with a quality retrofit. ($215 + S&amp;H) (plus another $60 in CFL bulbs)
Yes G'pa, they are hungry little beasts. Now the bad news. (or is it badder news?) They already are DC motors!!!! Whether they are permanent magnet or not, I am unsure of. On top of that, they are pretty specialized, as they have dual function of running the inside blower fan and the combustion exhaust blower fan.
My suggestion, if you have any free wall space, is to install a non-powered, direct-vent wall heater. Then just a small fan to set up a circulation works wonders. I was surprised yesterday, that my 7000 BTU heater was keeping up @ 35F, after the big furnace had warmed everything up first. (and this is before I have fully insulated the RV, as I still need to apply window film, add roof vent insulating "pillows", foam board insulation between the door and screen doors, skirt the perimeter of the trailer, and insulate the slide-out) I would have liked a 20,000 BTU model, but the price of the one I got was too good to pass on.
On another note, after calculating my expected propane usage, (and costs) I'm considering yet another heating option. I got lot's of firewood, but I don't want a woodstove in my trailer. (way too much easily combustible stuff in there) So I was thinking a makeshift outdoor boiler, and run hotwater baseboard in the trailer. I'd use an antifreeze solution so I don't have to worry about busting pipes when the fire is out. Regulation would require some thinking though, like a low antifreeze temp pump cutout, RV thermostat, and boiler over-temperature management. (when the RV isn't calling for heat)

[Steve Wolfe]

When my converter made some smoke signals before passing its last volt, I hard wired a separate battery charger to a 120 VAC circuit. So any time the generator is running or I am using the shore line, the charger is running and charging my batteries just like before. So far it has worked out well. I think I paid HF $65 for the charger, which by the way also has a reconditioning feature.

[clairenj]

we miss our generator. Not the whole shebang, mind you, just the generator...................
tough snowstorm this weekend

[Steve Wolfe]

I sure wish I could get it running. Rod and I (slight thread hijack) tried for quite some time. Cleaned out the fuel bowl, rinsed the tank, put in another fuel line, etc. We had to pull start it because the batteries were dead. It ran but sounded like a hit and miss engine. Later I installed new plugs but still couldn?t get it running. It?s got spark and I?m sure I?ll get it running but will probably have to rebuild the carburetor.I sure wish I could get it running. Rod and I (slight thread hijack) tried for quite some time. Cleaned out the fuel bowl, rinsed the tank, put in another fuel line, etc. We had to pull start it because the batteries were dead. It ran but sounded like a hit and miss engine. Later I installed new plugs but still couldn?t get it running. It?s got spark and I?m sure I?ll get it running but will probably have to rebuild the carburetor.

[rreidnauer]

Yea, it's definitely a fuel delivery problem of some sort. Probably just a simple dismantling and cleaning of the carb is all that's needed. Not fun trying to rope start that two-banger.

The mower down at work had a similar fit this past summer. Turned out to be a little piece of crud in the fuel bowl that would get sucked to the main jet siphon pickup. It would randomly cause the thing to all of a sudden loose power and almost come to a stop, then all of a sudden take off again. I guess as the vacuum dropped with RPMs, and the motor vibrated, the crud would get knocked away and allow fuel to flow again. Took me a bit to figure that one out, because I thought it was an electrical issue at first by the way it was acting.

[edkemper]

So often the problem is bad gas that has caused a blockage. You might try one of the gas stabilizers. I know you are supposed to use them to prevent a problem. But when I forgot and didn't use it one year on my small generator, I put it in and tried to just let it sit for a few days. I was able to get it started once it had some time to work. Just a cheap and easy "possible" solution.

[clairenj]

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2009/02/10/the-light-bulb-showdown-leds-vs-cfls-vs-incandescent-bulbs-whats-the-best-deal-now-and-in-the-future/
l really like this page; and we are going with the CFL's for now in the recesssed workroom lights ( 12 of them)

ps Steve, I agree with LHN about the fuel stabilizer; we were using it , remember? Also the last time I ran it was definitely around April- May 2009. by July I had switched to the two 12V battery chargers Rod and I discussed and just plugged it in to the house.
you'll get it, you always do

[rreidnauer]

I gave up trying to find quality 12v CFL lamps, and started the hunt for LED lamps which can match lumens with incandescent and CFL lamps. I did find them, but they are only available in China. (come on USA, what the heck is the deal?) I have ordered four to replace the CFLs used in the ceiling lights. Here is what they look like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/led_lamp1.jpg

They are actually brighter, at 800 lumens (vs. 700 for the CFLs) and less wattage at 9 (vs. 13 for the CFLs) I also just ordered a pair of LED lamps for the bathroom vanity lamps which were still incandescent. I gave up a slight bit of lumens each at 250 (vs. 264 for the incandescent) but wattage is slashed from 18 to just 3 each. Here's what they look like:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/led_lamp2.jpg

So, now every 12v light in the RV is LED, and check out the specs now. Total power is only a measly 71 watts! And if that's not impressive, then the fact that my total lumens increased to 5690 is! I have cut power usage by 81% from the original incandescent lights, and actually managed to increase light output by about 3%.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/wattage2.jpg

All the lamps are rated 8~30VDC so I won't have the burn-out problems like I was having with the CFLs. They aren't cheap though. The first bulbs are nearly $30 a piece, and the second ones are like $24 each with shipping. They are the cutting edge of high-output LED lights right now. Given time, they will become much more affordable, just as CFLs have become.

Oh, forgot to mention, I also swapped out the outside porch bulb (a 1141, 18w, 264 lumens) for a pair of cool white 3w, 240 lumen LEDs. That nearly doubled the brightness and cut it's power consumption by 66%. It really lights things up like a dusk to dawn light, but it's instant on.

I think I got about every bit of power savings I can get out of the lights now. Now what can i do about that darn furnace blower motor? :mad:

[donjuedo]

Great job!

[loghousenut]

Rod, About that furnace motor... I have a bit of experience here. I converted my bus to a motorhome back in the early 80's and lived in it full time for 10 years or so as a bachelor and even long after being domesticated.

For heat in the bus I had a gas furnace, a built-in gas catalytic heater, and a wood stove. Nothing heated the place like the wood stove. I think you oughta consider loosing that captains chair by the door and bolting in a little wood heater. A sheet metal shield can be bolted in to protect the nearby combustibles.

You'll never get that furnace to stop eating batteries.

[BoFuller]

Rod,
Awesome job. I need to do this to my trailer. When I get back from my trip, I need to get on this.

[GENE13]

Yea, it's definitely a fuel delivery problem of some sort. Probably just a simple dismantling and cleaning of the carb is all that's needed. Not fun trying to rope start that two-banger.

The mower down at work had a similar fit this past summer. Turned out to be a little piece of crud in the fuel bowl that would get sucked to the main jet siphon pickup. It would randomly cause the thing to all of a sudden loose power and almost come to a stop, then all of a sudden take off again. I guess as the vacuum dropped with RPMs, and the motor vibrated, the crud would get knocked away and allow fuel to flow again. Took me a bit to figure that one out, because I thought it was an electrical issue at first by the way it was acting.

On most small engines that are air-cooled, I've found that either the carb needs cleaned, or they need a new needle valve & float. Sometimes adjusting the tab on the float so the needle valve doesn't open as wide helps. If you're smelling gas, "bet the plug is wet too" the float isn't seating the needle valve and gas is still flowing into the engine causing it to miss, stall, or not start. No need to spend hours looking for the problem, if you're getting good spark at the plug, 95% of the time it's the carb. Rod I'm sure you know this, however, for those that don't, this could save them hours of wasted time and hassle. LOL

PS Great job on the lights Rod !!!

[Mosseyme]

Rod and anyone else that wants to put in here.
A few years ago we bought a 38' 5th wheel for my sister whose house had burned and she needed a place for her and her 2 teenagers.
They only used it for 9-10 months and then rented a place. It is an old one and when we went to start fixing some stuff to sell it we found that the panels in the back closet were covering a lot of old water damage. We pulled up some carpetl pulled out closets.partly guted the back room. The damage is just more than we can deal with at this time with the log cabin and remodeling our home for resale. We put about $6,000 into it and won't get much out of it. A guy came by the other day and offered $1000 for it. We want it gone but we were wondering how hard it would be to get that propane/electric refrigertor, propane stove and water heater to use in an off grid way for our shed/cabin. Also is there any type of place that will buy the siding and metal off of these campers. Just trying to figure out if there is a way to make use of what we could use and get rid of the rest.

[lilbluehonda]

If you did that nobody would want it then you'd be stuck with 38 ft. of junk that would cost a fortune to get rid of,I had a 26 ft. trailer to get rid of and the scrap yard wanted 500.00 to take it

[loghousenut]

Best case scenario is a lot of work and a big bonfire. I'm guessing $400 from the scrapyard after you remove screws, etc. from the aluminum siding and separate all the copper and brass and scrounge out the aluminum window frames, etc. In the end you'll keep what appliances you want for the cabin but they'll always be "camp trailer" grade appliances. You'll also have a large, medium strength trailer frame that can almost be beefed up into a stout 5th wheel flatbed.

Everything you salvage will either cost a lot of labor or it'll be a compromise in quality if you keep it to use. The reason these things are so affordable is because they are built to be lightweight and cheap.

One more thought. Is that back room damage the kind of situation where you could completely gut the damaged part and turn it into a toy hauler with a small living are in the front? Just a thought. Around here everyone wants a toy hauler.

[rreidnauer]

Pretty much what everyone else said. The appliances are easily adaptable for the most part. Just have to keep in mind that everything is designed as "built-in" and the fridge needs to be properly vented to function. (Side note: I specifically designed my kitchen layout for the log home, with the fridge on an exterior wall, with the full intention of it being a gas appliance)

Sent from my BlackBerry 8530 using Tapatalk

[Mosseyme]

Thanks, I figured as much.

[fishlkmich]

I bought a new Lance camper about ten years ago. I had an older unit for about ten years before that. I replaced the refigerator in the old unit and the new one is now a huge PITA! The flue needs to be cleaned several times per year and the rust in it is getting bad. It also seems to be drawing down my batteries very quickly now. I take care of my stuff and this refigerator needs more TLC than I have. If anyone plans on running a refigerator/freezer on propane, get a really good warranty. I'm going tp pay to have electricity brought in because it's cheaper than a new camper fridge/freezer.

[rreidnauer]

Yea, the back side of my fridge is rusted up too, but it has functioned flawlessly, and I haven't cleaned the flue. (maybe that's the secret? :rolleyes: ) To be honest, I was a bit surprised it even worked after sitting unused for 10 years.

Not sure why it's drawing down your batteries. The igniter is very low draw. The only other thing it could be, is if it has a "high humidity" option, which does electrically heat around the door seals to reduce/prevent condensation from forming.

[fishlkmich]

I'm leaning toward the controller board. It monitors everything. If anything isn't right the fridge gets thrown into a check mode and it does, frequently. It runs on AC, so I'll just switch over and pay the price. I've lost too much fishing time already!

[rreidnauer]

Dang, new-fangled monitoring electronics. I never understand the point to this stuff. Propane fridges have been around for ages, and they never needed this junk.

[Timberwolf]

Dang, new-fangled monitoring electronics. I never understand the point to this stuff. Propane fridges have been around for ages, and they never needed this junk.

Better get used to it. It's even in your chainsaw now. And when it goes haywire, break out the laptop.

http://www.husqvarna.com/int/international-microsite/about/enviromental-responsibility/

[fishlkmich]

How can you have a chainsaw with a heated handle unless you have a board to keep it at the right temperature?

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/products/xp-saws/372-xp-g/

[rreidnauer]

I was pretty unhappy when I got my 3120XP, and it had a fixed high-speed jet. @#?%€!

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[Peach1956]

Why not go LED all the way... LED's now come in a range of lumen (even high lumen)and colors, and they can tolerate small voltage fluctuations. You might also check into making your own LED Lights... There's several "instructional/how to" videos on You Tube. Your Batteries will give a sigh of relief. They're making LED's to last as much as 50k hours and more. At 50k hours... If you use them 12 hours/day they would last 11.41 years.

[rreidnauer]

Was that addressed to me?

If so, by post #19 of this thread, you'll see I have gone totally LED, and not regretting it one bit.

[stamic55]

There's several "instructional/how to" videos on You Tube.

If you are interested in LED's, I'd suggest looking at these LED strips. They have double sided sticky tape and you can cut them at various lenghts to fit. All you have to do is solder wires to it. If you need it longer, just solder jumpers b/t two of em. The are made for 12Volts.

http://www.newark.com/optek-technology/ovq12s30g7/led-strip-30-led-green/dp/19P2483?in_merch=New Power LED Modules&MER=NEWSO_N_P_PowerLEDModules_None

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Are these lighting changes possible for the house? I'd love to get to the point when or while we're building to go completely off grid. The cost factor atm is too steep, especially when we have underground utilities on the property already. What are the big energy drains in a conventional house after the clothes dryer? Does the dishwasher with heat dry pull a bunch? Do they make propane fridges that are house sized? Full of questions I am.

[StressMan79]

anything that heats with electric is a power hog. blow dryer, toaster, coffee maker, air conditioner (not that it heats, but takes tons of poweer).

Look into a bob haircut, a propane toaster (or a broiler in you oven) a percolator, and maybe a swamp cooler if you live in an arid climate (cooled my place to 75 deg from 105 this summer)

Dishwasher with heat dry will pull a bunch.

They make full sized propane fridges, but they are not cheap. Solar panels are, and I'd get a low voltage chest refer and a bunch of batteries. if you can go 48V, you can go with 12 batteries (3 chains of 4 batteries), and you would not worry about running out.

FWIW, YMMV

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Is that enough battery storage for the entire house?

[StressMan79]

Not running a toaster and incandescent lights. But more than enough for "off grid" living.

Say u have 12 batteries w/ total of 1200 watt hrs, u have a 20% duty cycle. U have enough for 2 days. That's 120 watt hrs / day. Or 60 watt continuous.

[rreidnauer]

Tank style water heaters and boilers are usually a home's largest energy consumer on an annual average. Lighting isn't all that significant on a grid tied home. Only when you get to very limited energy capacity does it play a major factor.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[BoFuller]

Is that enough battery storage for the entire house?

I'm thinking along the lines of 8 batteries, Trojan L16s

[StressMan79]

those 8 batteries (6V each) will have 320 A-H*6V=1920W*hr. using the same assumptions as above, that gives 60*1920/1200 = 96 Continuous watts.

Oh, I forgot about sizing your array...You'll want enough power coming in in 1 day to recharge 3 (the two that you used and another for today).

Most places have around 4 sun-hr/day, so if you need 120 watt hrs/day, at 48 V, that is 2.5 A-H/day. that means that you need 3x that much, so 7.5 A-H/day, or 7.5/4 A. at 48 V, that is right around 100 Watts..., which will put out 400 watt-hr/(sunny day).

Since solar modules cost ~ $1/watt, that is 100 dollars of solar panels. The 48V battery bank will cost roughly 1200 dollars. It is way cheaper to produce a bit more than you need than buy batteries to store power for long term.

[rreidnauer]

I'm thinking along the lines of 8 batteries, Trojan L16s

I got my heart set on telecom batteries. (3010Ah@2v each @10hr discharge rate!!!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/telco_batts01.jpg

For sizing panels to batteries, I go by the formula, one-fifth of 25% capacity of the battery bank. (eg- 1000Ah bank / 4 / 5 = 50A. So if the bank is 48V, I * V = W, thus 50A * 48V = 2,400 watts of solar panels)

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[Timberwolf]

Man, we have rooms of these (2V) at the new facility I'm working at. Likely to be refit with new tech, wish I could get my hands on them when we do. Some of these we have in service have a lifespan of almost 4 decades.

[rreidnauer]

Yep. And the best part is they are typically maintained in float charge, with very little wear, and get replaced every few years simply for CYA reasons.

If you know who the servicing company is that swaps them out, offer them scrap value plus 10% for the next set they change out. That is what I'm working on right now. Trying to find a company that services this type of battery in the area.

BTW, in that photo above, there are three parallel strings of 24 cells, for a whopping 9030Ah@48 volts, AND there was an identical set directly behind these. (867Kwh at the ready, or to put it into perspective, run an electric range with all the burners and oven going full tilt, and it would still go for 3 days!!! Actually longer than that, as that would be a 72hr discharge rate)

They have been changed out since that photo was taken.

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[rawson]

Seen some of the 2v batteries listed but the majority are out of China and require a money wire gram for purchase (I'd be worried on that deal) wonder if anyone has pursued a successful purchase this way? I am getting the end of the tax year itch to purchase alternative power for the tax credit advantages.

[rreidnauer]

Maybe through Alibaba.com (major China manufacturer gateway) At least with them, funds are held in escrow until you confirm receipt.

Oh, on a side note, after thinking about it for a while, I think I misquoted the numbers above. I think the specs were "per module", not "per cell". (with three cells in a module) So accurate numbers would be one third of that previously quoted.

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[Timberwolf]

Maybe through Alibaba.com (major China manufacturer gateway) At least with them, funds are held in escrow until you confirm receipt.

Oh, on a side note, after thinking about it for a while, I think I misquoted the numbers above. I think the specs were "per module", not "per cell". (with three cells in a module) So accurate numbers would be one third of that previously quoted.

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Even then. Gobs of power.

My BIG question is, what would I need to charge that massive bank, and how many panels would it require? We feed these babies from the grid. And it's a big a$$ grid.

[rreidnauer]

No joke. Going by the formula I use to size panels to batteries, you'd require about 14,500 watts of solar panels. (correcting my numbers, the bank pictured is 6,020Ah @ 10 hr discharge rate, or roughly 289Kwh)

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