Grid-Tied systems and EOTWAWKI?

[Klapton]

I'm currently making plans to sell my suburban home next year, and homestead somewhere as remote as reasonably possible. My tele-commuting job is what will make this possible. And because I use voice communications (Skype) for my work, satellite internet will not be possible. I will need some form of broadband, which means I will be close enough to civilization to probably have grid power too. So, what does this have to do with anything? One of my reasons for wanting to homestead is a desire for TRUE self-sufficiency and preparedness. Even if I have access to the grid, I want to generate my own power. So, most likely, I would have a grid-tied system. So here, finally, is my question: If I have a grid-tied system, what happens if something horrible happens to the grid? (Terrorist attack, total economic collapse -- whatever). If I was a net producer of power, would my stuff still work? Or would I have to have some contingency plan or alternate setup to be able to run off-grid in such a situation?

[StressMan79]

Klapton,

You might try to get wireless broadband. The property I'm looking at is putting in a new cell tower within line of sight. I hope that the new towers will have hi-speed data as well.

However, if you need grid tied, I would suggest having a battery backup. Most inverter/chargers have this option. they keep the battery bank charged and any excess the dump to the grid. Then if power goes out for a day, or a week, or longer, the battery bank will provide your home with power. You could use a 48 v system, and keep wire gauges fairly small, and only use 4 batteries, and upgrade at any time.

If you have the $$ to live close to civilization, this is a good option. Plus, you can add power incrementally, as you can be a net purchaser for a couple years while you build up your system.

-Peter

[Klapton]

Excellent! Thank you for the info.

[Yuhjn]

Sounds like a LOT of money just so you are prepared to make your own electriciy in the event of TEOTWAWKI.

And if you have the cash to invest in a full off-grid system, why tie in at all? Also you can get cellphone broadband in all kinds of places where you cannot get a grid tie. This is becomming more and more true every day as cell access increases at a hundred times the rate that grid power increases.

There are plenty of places where you can actually SEE the power lines, but getting the power company to run to you will cost 50k.

My advice is get your broadband from a cell tower, go off grid, and do not tie in at all.

[Klapton]

I'll definitely check into that option wherever I look for property. The advantage of grid-tie, as previously mentioned, is that I can build my system over time too. I'm planning to do all this over time without debt. (And no, I won't have the cash to go full offgrid from the start, most likely).

My plan is to take what I get from selling my current home (hopefully at least $100k) and use that to buy property, well, septic, electric hookup, and a ~$30k new or newer single-wide. All cash. Then take about three years to build our dream house. Then about another however long to work toward complete self-sufficiency (energy, food, etc.)

So, I guess another question would be how much it would cost to set up the mobil off-grid? If wireless broadband was available, and sufficient off-grid setup fit into that roughly $100k budget, then I'm game.

[Yuhjn]

Ah, I see. I think I see what you're shooting for. If your house is close to the road and there is power to the road it's usually cheap to tie into the grid. The further away you are, the more it costs. They usually give you a certain distance for free and then charge per-foot after that.

An offgrid system can be as cheap as 5k or as expensive as 50k, depending on your needs. The more watts you need, the more expensive it's going to be. The more flexible you are about when you take your power, the cheaper it becomes.

For example, if you need lots of power at night, you'll be running on batteries for all that so you need more and better batteries. But if you're in a position to do most of your power draw during the day when your PV's are producing, it requires less batteries.

Building up over time is a nice way to go though, because you dont have to meet all your needs at first and you can kinda figure out what you need as you go.

Also dont forget the heart of any off-grid system is the generator. You have to be a SUPER conservationist to run off grid without any generator at all. It cant be done, but it's not easy.

So for example In my case I know I'm going to sometimes need a generator, so I'm planning to run a propane gen. Now since I've got to have a propane tank on the property I'll go ahead and run the fridge and the on-demand hot water on propane as well. Oh, and the direct-vent wall furnace also runs on propane. I'm going to have other things to suppliment that, like PV and wind for electric, and a wood stove for heat... but at the end of the day, it's VERY hard to drop the generator compeltely.

[rreidnauer]

Wherever you decide to build, be sure to check with the electric company, whether they'll even allow you to use grid-tied inverters. Also, if they do, check on their policies. Some will pay back excess you generate (bi-direction meter), other companies may only apply a partial credit towards your bill (dual meters), and still others will not pay you anything. (non-reversible meters) Prepare to jump through some hoops to get it approved. They're worried about their lineman getting electrocuted if they are working on a down grid, and your inverter is throwing a charge into it.

I never looked into dual battery/grid-tie inverters. I had no idea what they cost. OUCH!

[Timber]

here is a link to a brand spankin new one still in plastic-dont know if it is powerful enough or the quality of the unit-- http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/local/products-and-tack/l277646

[StressMan79]

Klapton,

you're planning on going mortgage free on ~100k. This is certainly doable, but I don't know where you can pick up 5 acres with water and power and phone, a newer trailer, etc. for that $$. If you can (ask your wife) a distance from the road (I'm roughly 2 miles) can get you tens of thousands. Then a generator can start you on your way, and you can add panels, wind, etc from there.

If I had 100k and an understanding wife, I could start tomorrow. As it is, I'm going to have roughly 70k and a wife that wants a vacation home. I am going to have 20 acres with great solar, a well, lots of trees and OK access for low 30's, so this will be doable.

I would add to Yuhjn's post, you can buy a whole lot of gasoline for the price of running power in.

-Peter

[JD]

Good point, Rod. Here's a link to the DOE site showing which states have net metering programs. http://www.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/resources/maps/netmetering_map.shtml
AFAIK if your state doesn't have a net metering program it just means that the state does not require the utilities to allow net metering. However, your individual utility may still allow it. Where I plan to build, the TVA specifically prohibits it. :(

[rreidnauer]

Larry, you got me on the hunt again. An inverter is one of the items I still don't have in my ever growing collection of RE equipment. I came across one that would be good for both you and myself, since it can function grid-tied or independent. In addition, it's true sign wave 120/240v split phase, and "stackable", so it can be tied right into your home's service. It's the Xantrex XW6048. It is a 48v inverter, rated 6000 watts. (25A @ 240v, 50A @ 120v) They start at around $3000 a piece.

[Kola]

There are lots of different beliefs flying around about if-and-when-and- how the SHTF..from poets to NA tribal prophecy.

The year 2012 seems to come up quite a bit.

It doesn't take much to knock out ALL types of power. (effects of nuclear bombs, nuke accidents, planatary collision). Anything electrically driven will be wiped out..cars planes, trains, computers, air waves (radio, TV, WIFI, etc).

Lets face it. This world is a mess. She could use a good cleansing... and IMO the only way that can happen is for us humans to leave her alone for awhile.

..as my Granny used to say: "Mother Nature bats last".

Kola

[Yuhjn]

The year 2012 seems to come up quite a bit.

Yeah I heard all computers are supposed to have some kind of math error that's going to bring down our entire banking system because they wernt programmed to go past 1999 or something like that.

Oh no wait, that's not it.... I'm thinking Y2K bug ;)

So 2012 is the Mayan prophecy about the end of civilization? But wait, the Mayan civilization collapsed sometime around 750-900 AD ... so they goofed that one up too. ;)

End of the world is far too optimistic for me. I'm expecting many hundreds of years enslaved by that .05% of the population that controls everything. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires_%282008%29
What does one human need 62 billion dollars for anyway?

Kola, you're right though that Mother Nature will kick back at some point. I expect that to mainly hurt poor people of course, but what's new.

[Timberwolf]

Why to give it away of course.

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are the worlds to biggest phlanthropists. Warren had pledged to Bill that he will donate the majority of his fortune to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation so they can continue their work.

Bill must be trying to avoid purgatory for Windows ME... oh and Vista, DOS, um Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0...

[Yuhjn]

Why to give it away of course.

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are the worlds to biggest phlanthropists. Warren had pledged to Bill that he will donate the majority of his fortune to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation so they can continue their work.

Bill must be trying to avoid purgatory for Windows ME... oh and Vista, DOS, um Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0...

Yeah Buffet is one of my favorite uber rich people. He's got some really great quotes that I refer to often... like the fact that he pays 15% in taxes but his secretary pays 33% every though she makes a fraction of what he makes.

Buffet does a great job at pointing out the extreme disparity in the distrobution of wealth in this country.

Another of my favorite quotes of his is: "Class warfare? Heck yes we have class warfare. My class is winning!"

He's also a big fan of the estate tax.

I could go on but I've derailed this thread enough I think. :)

[shawnis]

I'd really like to caution everyone against class warfare. It seldom does what people think it will.

Who cares how much money someone has? If they made it ethically why should we fault them for it? Someone having riches does not automatically mean they are stealing from the poor.

More often than not class warfare is a tool of the political class to expand their power. When enough people advocate a rebalancing of money, the government passes more laws.





Yeah Buffet is one of my favorite uber rich people. He's got some really great quotes that I refer to often... like the fact that he pays 15% in taxes but his secretary pays 33% every though she makes a fraction of what he makes.


I've always thought the problem with this fact was that his secretary is paying too much in taxes. Are you advocating we increase taxes?




Buffet does a great job at pointing out the extreme disparity in the distrobution of wealth in this country.


Big deal. Why should everyone be about equal? Again, if someone has made their wealth through having an extremely valuable talent, and not theft, why can't they profit from it?

Shouldn't people who are smart, industrious, and hard working naturally have a lot more money than some lazy slug who wants to watch TV all day?




Another of my favorite quotes of his is: "Class warfare? Heck yes we have class warfare. My class is winning!"


This quote is absolutely meaningless and a non-sequitur. Does being rich mean you've won the "class war?" This is a catchy sound bite and only holds meaning to people fully on the rich-envy/wealth redistribution side.




He's also a big fan of the estate tax.


Well, the man is a Socialist. What do you expect? Someone please tell me why the government gets to keep your money when you die?

Buffet is a hypocrite. He supports the estate tax while giving his money to the charity of his choice. No one else gets to make the choice, Buffet wants to make it for them. Remember, the estate tax goes to the government, yet Buffet won't give his to Uncle Sam. Think about that.

[shawnis]

What does one human need 62 billion dollars for anyway?


I don't mean to pick on Yuhjn, but I have to comment on this statement, too.

Who are we to determine how much money one person can have? By what standard, that is not arbitrary, are we to make this distinction?

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'd just like to have a healthy conversation about this.

[Ellsworth]

Off topic.? I'll lock this thread for today, then prune the off topic posts and reopen it.