McCain's "revolutionary" batter?

[Klapton]

So, John McCain has proposed paying a bunch of money to someone who can come up with a "revolutionary battery" to free us from oil dependence for transportation.

Here's what I'm thinking. The "revolutionary" batter may not exist. The "evolutionary" improvement in battery tech is happening even as we speak. If my idea was to happen, market competition would surely result in continual improvements. But here's my idea:

STANDARDIZATION

If the auto industry were to get their best brains together, and agree on a basic size, shape, and interface for a standardized electric car battery, then gas stations could simply be converted into "battery exchanges". You pull into the station, pay whatever the cost would be, and they take your battery out, put a freshly charged one in, and you go on your merry way. They plug your battery into a rack to charge, and use FIFO (first in, first out).

They could then install PV and wind turbines on all these stations to offset what they suck out of the grid, and increase profitability.

The initial design agreed upon would have to be WELL thought out, of course. And the range of the battery would have to be close to what a tank of gas will get you. Or they'd simply have to build more stations in the boonies where existing gas stations are too far apart.

Competition will lead to improved models of this standardized battery. This might lead to "regular" vs. "premium" batteries as well. Or if you have a premium battery, and the station doesn't have enough fully charged premium ones available, then you'd get your regular battery at a lower rate. You could "upgrade" whenever you wanted by paying a similar difference in reverse.

What do you guys think?

[Yuhjn]

Great ideas Klapton.

May be a bit hard to implement and I'm afraid McCain is just using this idea as political rhetoric. Here are my thoughts on it:

Unfortunatley the major stockholders in the auto industry are also major stockholders in the oil companies. That's why we dont already have electric cars. The oil industry needs consumers for it's oil so they bought up the auto manufactures to make sure they keep fuel economy down. The oil industry has a vested interest in making sure our cars burn gas like crazy, which just drives their industry. This will make it very difficult to transition away from gas based vehicles. It's going to happen, but they are going to make sure it happens as slowly as possible.

There is a much smaller example of this kind of business practice that I enjoy very much. Let me share :)

You might remember several years ago there was a company that came out with the "tripple bladed windshield wipers". They were attachments to your normal wiper arms that had 3 blades instead of 1 and they were supposed to do a better job of keeping your windshield wiped.

Well the guy who invented and patented them, just before he released them, invested a bunch of money in the leading manufacturer of the MOTORS that drive your wipers. He did this because during testing he realized that his tripple wipers were so heavy that they burned out wiper moters REALLY FAST. So he figured that if his blades caught on, there would be a huge new demand for the motors since they would all burn out. If his wipers sold well, his stock in the motor maker would jump up as well and he'd be a double winner!

So I love your idea Klapton, I'm just skeptical about it working.

[Klapton]

Bear in mind that the oil companies own most of those would-be converted gas stations. They and/or the auto industry would be the ones developing and selling the snifty new battery packs for their new car designs. It's not like they wouldn't make money off it. It would, however, require considerable investment in R&D, building factories, retooling auto factories, etc.

This is the kind of idea that might actually work with something like Obama's "manhattan project" style spending spree. Perhaps one of his folks will stumble on this and he can claim it was his idea? ROFL. I'd be ok with that. Anything to get us off our oil addiction would be great.

[Yuhjn]

This is the kind of idea that might actually work with something like Obama's "manhattan project" style spending spree. Perhaps one of his folks will stumble on this and he can claim it was his idea? ROFL. I'd be ok with that. Anything to get us off our oil addiction would be great.

I read an article about a guy who converted his chevette to run on cat poop. Worked pretty well but smelled bad.

Yeah if Obama gets elected and you make more than about 300k/year, prepare to be taxed.

[Klapton]

This is the kind of idea that might actually work with something like Obama's "manhattan project" style spending spree. Perhaps one of his folks will stumble on this and he can claim it was his idea? ROFL. I'd be ok with that. Anything to get us off our oil addiction would be great.

I read an article about a guy who converted his chevette to run on cat poop. Worked pretty well but smelled bad.

Yeah if Obama gets elected and you make more than about 300k/year, prepare to be taxed.
So he SAYS... Remember Bill Clinton's "middle class tax cut"? The year after he was elected, I compared the tax tables. If your adjusted gross income was in the $18k range, your taxes went UP.

The dude is a politician. A darned good one at that. In my book, that makes him a LIAR until proven otherwise. But that's just me, hehe.

[Yuhjn]

I wasnt suggesting that anyone's taxes would go DOWN :) Although under Bush Jr anyone making over 200k got huge tax breaks that are still in effect and McCain has stated he'll continue them.

But lets get back to fuel :)

I think the oil companies are behind this big push for hydrogen cars. Hydrogen is actually a pretty crappy way to fuel a car, but it allows the oil guys to sell you H instead of gas at their little gas stations. If you go electric on your car, then you can charge it up at home in your own garage and you dont need a gas station at all. Plus you can then run your house on PV panels and cut out the coal bastards as well (same guys of course, .1% of the population owns it all, including industrial farming).

[GT.]

No Need for Gasoline
The Civic GX does not use gasoline. This unique vehicle is powered instead by clean natural gas, making it nearly free of harmful emissions.


http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/environment.aspx

[Klapton]

Meet Phill, the first home refueling appliance available to owners of natural-gas vehicles.Phill is a compact unit (30" x 14" x 14"), manufactured by FuelMaker, that's easily installed to your home gas line, inside or outside your garage. This is the very same gas line you use to fuel appliances such as your gas stove. Phill is as safe and quiet as a clothes dryer. It's equipped with several built-in features like a methane detector, which can monitor for unlikely leaks and automatically shut down the system if necessary.

Refueling the GX may take up to 16 hours if the tank is virtually empty. This process might actually be more convenient than going to a gas station if you fill up each night when you come home. Phill is designed not to need any service or maintenance, but should you experience any problems, Phill Technical Support is standing by to help. On the road When you're out and about, please consider the following. A full tank of gas supplies the GX with a driving range of approximately 220?250 miles*. In most cases, this will allow you to travel to your destination and back home to refuel with Phill. But sometimes you'll need to fill up on the road.

At times like these, you can refuel in mere minutes at the numerous fast-fill compressed natural gas stations throughout California. Check out the California Natural Gas Vehicle Coalition Web site for a complete list of locations. Please note that most of these stations accept common forms of payment like Visa or MasterCard; however, a few stations require payment with a special "credit card" authorized by the station owner.

*Your actual driving range may vary, depending on driving habits, fill pressure and "fast fill" effects.

1) 250 miles isn't enough, imho. 400 would be more like it. Of course, if they installed these stations in other places than CA, I'm game. That would be just as good as my "battery swap station" idea (minus the stuff listed below).

2) It still emits CO2. I am, however, not 100% convinced about human-caused GW, so this is kind of a wash for me.

3) I'd have to have natural gas to my home. This works fine in suburbia, but not in the sticks where I will build my log home (and the only place I can AFFORD to build my log home)

4) I'd prefer 100% electric, because I KNOW I will have electricity in my home (either produced by me, or from the grid). And 100% electricity from a clean source (like PV on top of my house) emits no CO2. So, even though I'm not 100% convinced about human-caused GW, I will be able to say that it isn't my fault.

5) I almost forgot the biggest one: Natural Gas is a finite resource. We will eventually start running out of that too. We will never run out of sun or wind.

[Yuhjn]

Ok I'm not sure how a gas (gas, natural) powered car is better than a gas (liquid, refined) powered car... (aka natural gas is not "clean")

burning fossil fuel is a bad move, no matter what form you got it in.

natural gas cars also require the "gas station" and the big refinery and the distribution network.

Also 250, or 400 miles is all way overkill. Most automobile uses are like 15 miles, to work... then maybe to town for lunch. Back from lunch, and home again. All day is like 40 miles tops. I dont know what national auto usage averages are but you dont need much.

1 gasoline burning internal combustion engine per 4 or 5 Americans is more than enough for trips, vacations , and rebar collection.

Even if you need internal combustion every day you still need a "human transportaion vehicle" that gets 100 miles on a charge you give it with your cell phone charging cord.

Bottom line is that if the sun or your own body are not powering your transportation you're so 20th century :)

[GT.]

The dreams of electric cars are in the air for decades, but nothing is done.
We can talk or dream about it forever, but it doesn't make me sleep any better.
If I buy natural gas powered honda civic, i can sleep much better while the car is charged.
Natural gas is much cheaper then gasoline. And much cleaner.
200 miles is perfect for me. With my driving needs and habits it is more then anough for two weeks !
It is more then anough for most people.

If I will wait for electric powered car for a few years (what is extremely optimistic ) I will spend thousand $$$ on gasoline
If I buy this Civic, I can save money imidiately. And wait till the dreams about electric cars come true...

If one want to be comletely emission free, should use his own two lower extremities to get from point "A" to point "B"
Even horses are not "zero emission" transportation - they produce greenhouse gases as well :)))

Electric cars are not "zero emission" too. They arent "green" .
Just think how much polutuion happens during production of any car.
How about battery disposal every three - five years ?


More about natural gas powered cars here:

http://blog.cngaz.com/

**********


Larry, don't get me wrong - I like your idea, but it doesn't help me today.
I am trying to find solutions that are available for me today, and use it.

[Yuhjn]

How about battery disposal every three - five years ?

You have good points GT. Yes gas is greener than oil. And yes, not only battery disposal, but battery production is anything but green.

You can't run a steel mill off hippie juice, as my cousin likes to say.

If you can give me a cheap way to just plug my car into the gas line that runs into my house (assuming I have gas at my house) then I think thats a great idea!

[RodneyG]

I won't get into a "greener" argument, but this is just plain cool. Google XP Vehicles. It's an inflatable car that runs on 500 cell phone batteries. The inflatable technology has been used on boats for years. One of the layers is the same thing they use on bullet proof vests so it won't pop, there are valves so if you get hit you don't bounce a hundred feet. It will float if you get caught in a flood, but it is not a water vehicle. The up side is you don't drown, the down side is you have one hell of a repair bill. BUT-- the estimated cost as of now for the vehicle is only $5,000. They should be on the market in 2 years if Chevy,Ford ect.. lobbyists don't shut them down via our GOVERNMENT.

[rreidnauer]

Hmmmm, several of the properties I came across in WV had wells on them and was advertised as "free gas". Likely you'd need to scrub it of moisture and such, but with gasoline at $4+ and going to ? it doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

BTW, most gasoline powered vehicles can be converted to NG.

[spiralsands]

How does an NG conversion compare to a LPG conversion? I thought about converting my Dodge Ram truck to LPG but I'm not sure if there is any clear advantage to it.

[Basil]

Hey Rod-
Here in KY there are a lot of people with gas wells on their farms. They run houses, greenhouses and barns by simply being "plugged in" to the ground. We owned a farm with multiple oil and gas wells on it and the neighbor saw how much gas we could produce. He drilled a well, connected to his house, and thanked us for showing him how to heat his house for free. Of course, a 700 foot deep well is not cheap...

[adubar]

Klapton,

There actually quite a few schemes that have been suggested by action groups that are along the same lines. But, the main problem is the division between government regulation and the manufacturers.

At present, a good example is children's safety seats. There is general legislation in most states and safety guides/requirements at the federal level. You would think that manufacturers both of autos and safety seats would seek a mutually agreed upon design spec and make it a standard?

But, they don't. If you've ever tried putting the same child's car seat in different manufacturers autos, you quickly become aware that this type of coordination left to the benevolence of the "industry" just doesn't happen. There is no incentive and plenty of decentive to prevent it from happening. Yet, the local government still mandates a car seat for persons uncer 4'9," even though there is not a standard to say that a seat is installed correctly--or has any benefit to the child in a collision as installed.

[rreidnauer]

How does an NG conversion compare to a LPG conversion? I thought about converting my Dodge Ram truck to LPG but I'm not sure if there is any clear advantage to it.
The main difference is the storage vessel and range that can be obtained from it. LPG gets about equal mileage to gasoline for a similar sized tank, while NG gets only around half. Also, there's a large pressure difference. (LPG is in the low-200 PSI vs. NG in the mid-3000 PSI range. Also, on the road, LPG is a lot easier to come by. The best part though is, either one burns cleaner than gasoline, putting less wear-n-tear on the engine.

Back on subject, I got a friend who's been planning on converting to diesel electric. NOT hybrid gas/electric traction, but diesel (actually biodiesel) generation/electric traction, just like how a diesel train works. The diesel will be sized just big enough to generate enough power to propel the car at cruising speed on level ground. Going downhill and decelerating, the diesel catches up and charges the batteries, uphill or accelerating you pull against the batteries. He's even kicking around letting the engine start and stop as needed for charging. No sense idling if the batteries are full, and when you get to your destination the motor will continue to run to top up the batteries then shut down.

I got to say though, I like the battery swap idea.

[ponyboy]

EEstor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Hey, I have those plans!
Never did build the car.

-Rick

[hemlock77]

Hey my brother has an opel gt in his garage. I wounder if I could talk him out of it. Mush prettier than a prius too.

[ChrisAndWendy]

This all great but what about now? We have allowed the radical environmental nuts to sway our law makers to limit drilling in the US, on land and sea, so our dependance on foreign oil has crippled us. The newer emission ratings has reduced the MPGs we can get out of our cars and trucks. Which is better for Mother Earth, a truck that gets 24 mpg but is dirty exhaust or a truck that gets 15 mpg and has a cleaner exhaust? I think that if someone were to do the numbers,I think they will find that in the long run it is better to use less fuel to get there than to be super clean and use a third + more fuel. Until we can come up with a mode of travel that is easy, cheap and cleaner, we need to drill, relax some restrictions and say to hell with the foreign oil. It's funny how many of the cars and trucks of 20 +years ago were mile for mile more fuel/gas misers then todays. I give you my 1982 Mercedes 300D that gets 27 mpg or my 1994 Dodge pickup 3/4 ton (no longer have) that got 24 mpg. We need to look at all the different ideas out there but remember today is today. The prices of fuel have effected all of us a one way or another (on grid or off-grid). Chris

[Klapton]

Check this out!

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/07/laugh-at-high-g.html

[Timberwolf]

http://www.fashionfunky.com/2008/02/tata_air_car_coming_to_usa_by.php
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/01/worlds-first-air-powered-car-introduced

Super low/zero emmisons. No toxic batteries.

Seats 6!

Sign me up!

[ponyboy]

I believe you have to buy those Tata's in pairs....

[Scoutman]

I've got an idea for an electric vehicle that doesn't need to be plugged in and it doesn't have an internal combustion engine. But I need experts in automotive and electrical engineering on board to verify feasibility. And you can't patent an idea.....