Hey Rod is this thing for real?

[Will Dye]

My dad has found this sorta hydrogen generator deal on line and he is getting the stuff together to build one. I think I understand most of the details. It goes under your hood and is pretty small. Basically it is water in a sealed chamber with a coil of stainless steel wire suspended in it. When electricity passes through the coil it breaks free hydrogen atoms that then escape from it through a tube to your intake supplementing/boosting your regular fuel. Is there enough hydrogen in a small volume of water for this to be feasible? It sounds like snake oil to me.

[ponyboy]

Do you have a link?
I've heard of this before but I've never seen any proof from a reliable source that it works.
I think Mythbusters did a special on gadgets that are supposed to improve your gas
mileage but I can't remember if this was one of them.

[Will Dye]

It is water4gas.com Ponyboy. This is a flip flop deal cause I am always trying to prove to my dad that something will work and he is telling me it is nuts where it is vice versa here. LOL Tell me what you guys think.

[Klapton]

Hydrogen add-ons:

http://www.drive-on-water.com/?gclid=CJavlvLvtZICFQ8vHgodf3h_kQ
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=kevinkanny

Daniel Dingel, a Phillipino inventor, claimed to have run his car on 100% on-the-fly Hydrogen, but kept his method secret, because he wanted the Phillipino people to gain from it, not the greedy bastards who apparently came to see his car. Here's his story on You-Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw

Stan Meyer, whose untimely death has fueled many conspiracy theorists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yRn4IAsrU&feature=related

The "Joe Cell" is another Hydrogen on demand invention that people are trying to replicate:

http://www.thejoecell.com/
http://pesn.com/2006/04/13/9600257_Bill_Williams_threatened/

Here's one snippet of Joe himself talking about his car:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7785149275674305332

I found lots of info, including linkies to other sites, including a forum for hobbyists trying to replicate some of this stuff here:

http://peswiki.com/energy/Main_Page

My car is brand new and still under warranty, plus I can't afford to have it not work for me. So I won't be trying anything like this. Once I get my log home built (couple years from now, lol) IF I have some money to throw at an old junker, I might give it a try, hehe.

[rreidnauer]

I mentioned before, that I have considered building an electrolyzer to SUPPLEMENT gas which would (hopefully) increase gas mileage. I don't know how much energy will be consumed to generate the hydrogen for the engine, but I can assure you it can't be a self sustaining system like Daniel Dingel claims. (he kept his "secret" because it can't work)

The thing to remember is, water is not an energy source until it's "cracked". It requires an outside energy source to do that. And since nothing is 100% efficient, that makes it impossible to generate enough energy to power the engine, which provides the electric for the electrolyzer. It always takes more energy to make hydrogen, than the amount of energy hydrogen can provide. This is the current problem with hydrogen power today, as it's still terribly inefficient to make.

[Klapton]

The thing to remember is, water is not an energy source until it's "cracked". It requires an outside energy source to do that. And since nothing is 100% efficient, that makes it impossible to generate enough energy to power the engine, which provides the electric for the electrolyzer. It always takes more energy to make hydrogen, than the amount of energy hydrogen can provide. This is the current problem with hydrogen power today, as it's still terribly inefficient to make.
I think that there just might be something different about what these guys have come up with. It has something to do with a square wave pattern at the proper resonance frequency that "cracks" the H2O with less current than brute force current.

I have no freakin clue about electricity, really. I worry about being able to do any of my own electrical work sometimes, especially setting up anything off-grid / solar etc. because the stuff you post, Rod, blows my brain out.

Have you actually looked into any of this stuff, Rod? Or are you simply dismissing it based on whatever law that guy came up with 100+ years ago? I only ask because if you haven't given it any serious consideration, I'd be VERY intersted in your opinions about it AFTER you have, since you seem to be the most electrically inclined guy I know.

I don't ask or say this to be critical, or call you "closed minded" or any such nonsense either. But if we look back at scientific history, how many things did we believe could not be done, are now commonplace? I think of the Sound Barrier, the notion that the whole universe would explode if you split the atom, etc.

[Will Dye]

Klapton I got something different from Rod's post. He's not dismissing the idea of the thing possibly supplementing your fuel and giving you more mileage. He is referring to some guy that claimed he could run his car off the system and no other fuel. The electricity for the process is coming from your alternator (powered by the fuel in your tank) which is capable of producing plenty more extra electricity than what a car's electrical systems need. I just didn't know how much potential hydrogen/power supplementation you could get out of a small volume of water. I am way to lazy to figure out the math and I knew Rod could put the numbers together off the top of his head. So Rod, bottom line, how much hydrogen energy can you obtain from a gallon of water? I remember them saying something on the site about "tweaking" your setup for your vehicle. I suspect that this has alot to do with the rate that you extract the hydrogen from the water. You don't want the most efficient stripping because that will take all of the hydrogen out of your water source quickly and give you a short period of boost. You want a setup that will crack the hydrogen out at a steady pace and inject the hydrogen into your fuel/air mix over time. LOL...I feel like the Doc talking about the flux capacitor and I am not NEARLY knowledgeable enough on this thing to be making any assumptions or suggestions. Does anybody know if there is any truth about these things being part of world war 2 aircraft fuel systems? If someone told me the thing was part of 70 year old aircraft technology and they figured out way back then that it was beneficial it would probably sway me over the edge to believing in it.

[Klapton]

Klapton I got something different from Rod's post. He's not dismissing the idea of the thing possibly supplementing your fuel and giving you more mileage. He is referring to some guy that claimed he could run his car off the system and no other fuel.
No, I wasn't misreading his post. Supplementing is clearly viable. The only real question there is getting the mix right to do more good than harm, and a question of how much benefit you can really get from it. I would never do it with a newer car with computer-controlled ignition, fuel injection etc. Nor would I try it with my primary auto.

I was addressing his dismissal of those more controversial claims. There are folks out there working on reproducing some of these gizmos, using square waves, etc. And I just wondered if Rod has looked into any of that stuff. The guy who "proved" that it takes more energy to crack hydrogen by electrolysis than the hydrogen combustion will produce used simple, brute-force current, without any consideration or experimatation with wave patterns, frequencies, various plate configurations, etc. I'd just like to hear the opinion of someone who has a clue about electricity has to say about these experiments after having devoted some serious thought to them.

[Will Dye]

Jola klapton! Hey I posted that last message without watching any of the videos you had on your previous post. WOW! Is there REALLY that much energy in water? That one guy said you could get a hundred miles out of 4 ounces of water. One claimed you could drive from L. A. to New York on 22 gallons with his system. Another one said that hydrogen is 1700 times more powerful than hydrocarbon fuel. I think I will pay a little more attention to pop's effort to put a system together.

[Klapton]

I don't know about anyone's specific claims. I'm also not sure exactly which thing you are talking about.

I'm no chemist, but I'm pretty sure that if you took the same mass of gasoline vapor vs. hydorgen gas, that the hydrogen gas will make a much bigger kaboom. (How's that for scientific jargon?)

The problem that Rod pointed out, which is the big problem with hydrogen combustion cars, is that it takes MUCH more energy to create hydrogen gas by electrolysis than the combustion of the gas will produce. In other words, to zap the water to make hydrogen requires electricity. If you were to use a gasoline generator to produce the electricity, you would use more gasoline zapping the water than you would just using the gasoline to drive your car.

But this is based on the typical, brute-force electrolysis method of sticking two electrodes in the water and zapping away.

There are two basic theories / supposed inventions for hydrogen on the fly. One is to use frequencies, wave patterns, and electrode plate spacing to "crack" the water using way less current than brute force.

The other is to use some kind of carbon rods and use PLASMA to do the electrolysis. (Plasma is one of the "phases" of matter, like liquid, solid, and gas.) I'm guessing that the energy generated by the phase change is great enough to crack the water molecules with less electric current than brute-force zapping. (An example of harnessing phase change energy is refrigeration/AC/heat pumps, where using mechanical energy to compress and decompress freon between it's liquid and gas phases generates heat energy.)

[spiralsands]

I looked at the first two links about the device that produces HHO. Back in college, I was told that HHO is water, hence its chemical symbol, H2O. Hydrogen and Oxygen can only bond in one way because of their outer shells.

But we do NOT generate Hydrogen, you see, we generate HHO. The presence of Oxygen and water vapor in our system makes HHO very safe! Yes, HHO is a powerful combustible gas. But it's NOT explosive like pure Hydrogen. It does NOT need cooling and will be ignited only by the strong spark inside your engine.

Huh? Water can go off like a bomb?

The guy explains that baking soda is added to the water bottle. It is then charged by the car assuming, I guess to release this "HHO". (?) Essentially what he did was make an alkaline battery in a bottle. The ancient Romans knew how to do this. But he uses spirals instead of plates. He's building a inductive coils inside an alkaline battery. I can't imagine why that is so important since he is only vaporizing water. The Roman used unprecisely cut copper strips for their electroplating jars. Essentially the gas being siphoned out of that bottle is actually water vapor, not hydrogen.


Vaporizer: ads water vapor to the engine to cool it down, improves combustion and fuel economy. Also serves as part of the "charged water system" that you will learn about.

I thought that was what the radiator system was supposed to do in your car. The whole engine block is machined for cooling already. I don't think we want to mix that stuff into the fuel air mixture. What would that do to the heads once the engine started to cool down and all that water was condensing inside the cylinders. My guess is that you are cutting down your engine life. It doesn't sound like good automotive engine theory to me.

[spiralsands]

I don't know about anyone's specific claims. I'm also not sure exactly which thing you are talking about.

I'm no chemist, but I'm pretty sure that if you took the same mass of gasoline vapor vs. hydorgen gas, that the hydrogen gas will make a much bigger kaboom. (How's that for scientific jargon?)

The problem that Rod pointed out, which is the big problem with hydrogen combustion cars, is that it takes MUCH more energy to create hydrogen gas by electrolysis than the combustion of the gas will produce. In other words, to zap the water to make hydrogen requires electricity. If you were to use a gasoline generator to produce the electricity, you would use more gasoline zapping the water than you would just using the gasoline to drive your car.

But this is based on the typical, brute-force electrolysis method of sticking two electrodes in the water and zapping away.

There are two basic theories / supposed inventions for hydrogen on the fly. One is to use frequencies, wave patterns, and electrode plate spacing to "crack" the water using way less current than brute force.

The other is to use some kind of carbon rods and use PLASMA to do the electrolysis. (Plasma is one of the "phases" of matter, like liquid, solid, and gas.) I'm guessing that the energy generated by the phase change is great enough to crack the water molecules with less electric current than brute-force zapping. (An example of harnessing phase change energy is refrigeration/AC/heat pumps, where using mechanical energy to compress and decompress freon between it's liquid and gas phases generates heat energy.)

I screwed up my reply now I gotta write it all over again.
Rod is right about that hydrogen is not produced economically enough yet. The Japanese produced and displayed a hydrogen car but it will never be produced. Too expensive. It's the same thing with ethanol. It takes more petrol to produce ethanol than if you were to just use the petrol itself.

Where did you read about the electronic 'splitting' of H2O? I know electronics and I'd like to see if I can make heads or tails of it. Gotta link?

[Klapton]

I can't seem to find the best one I found. It was a forum for hobbyists attempting to replacate these designs. This page, however, seems to have a lot of linkies that might be fruitful: http://my.opera.com/H2earth/links/

EDIT: found it. http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/

Another one that seems to have some decent info: http://oupower.com/phpBB2/index.php?sid=7dbd28d9d07fda6116365a3d0e3378ac

[GENE13]

As Klapton has indirectly stated< there is more than one way to skin a cat. We do know that we can extract the hydrogen from water, that is a fact. Old science says the rule is......in creating energy< you would have to spend about the same amount of energy it would take to create it.
Rod feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. From here on we get into theory, the fact that everything is made up of atoms and as most have witnessed< them little things can create a lot of energy. How does this happen? Through a chain reaction. I believe the same can happen when
extracting the hydrogen from water, though electrolysis if the same type of chain reaction can occur, then only a very small trickle from your battery would be needed (TO START THE CHAIN REACTION AND KEEP IT GOING) I do believe this has already been perfected to a small degree where as we can supplement gas with hydrogen. Even better results could be out there right now, a lot of people have claims there is.

Myself, I'm an electric car fan guy, LOL :-)

[Roadscholar]

Hi Klapton


Here is a link for you to try out. It should give you a nice basic grounding in what you can/can't do with hydrogen. Total hands on ideas are covered on the DVD. The other stuff on this thread might pan out, but for now this should give you the most bang for the buck on this subject.

http://www.knowledgepublications.com/hydrogen_car_dvd/h2_car_dvd.htm

Hope this helps
Curtis
Roadscholar

[rreidnauer]

As politely as I can put it, PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINES DO NOT EXIST!!!!!! Everything in life requires more energy in than is returned. Even supposed super-conductors, which are claimed to be 100% efficient, fail to take into account the energy used for the cooling they require. There are no free lunches.

Consider this. IF there really was a way that a device could run by doing nothing more than pouring in water, the world would no longer have an energy issue. There's a reason no "breakthroughs" that so many claims, ever come to light. (and don't give me the oil companies conspiracy crap) I stand by that until someone can prove me wrong. (I have a feeling I'll be standing a long, long time) If that day were to actually happen, you can be sure it will be a glorious day indeed.

Now, I'm glad people are out there trying to come up with the miracle of infinite energy. Those folks are the most likely to stumble upon more efficient means of utilizing or extracting energy. Hydrogen is an extremely good fuel. I look forward to the day it can be as commonly used as gasoline.

Oh yea, and the question asked, "How much hydrogen in a gallon of water?"

4707 liters at standard atmospheric pressure and 32F. ;-) (I cheated and looked it up)

[Will Dye]

LOL...OK Rod now that's a good start but I am still to dumb to grasp what it means. How much horsepower does that end up being? Are their claims true about hydrogen being 1700 percent more powerful than hydrocarbon fuel? It's hard to sort fact from crap the way everybody pulls numbers out of their keisters these days. If an engine is already running at a certain power/rpm range to drive down the road at a certain speed and the alternator is producing more electricity than the car can use which is in turn enough to crack the hydrogen we're not talking about a perpetual motion machine. If they are able to use this electricity for the process with out "dragging down" the motor then I can see how it could work. Basically, it all boils down to whether or not you believe that there is a more efficient way to break off the hydrogen atoms than conventional electrolysis. I think maybe. Just yesterday I for the first time ever saw a better mouse trap idea. It was simple, self resetting and I wonder why I was never able to come up with the idea myself after it was explained. One of the things that intrigued me was that a couple of the processes cracked producing nearly no heat. Doesn't alot of the energy of conventional electrolysis get wasted as heat?I had to explain the concept of a perpetual motion machine the other night and boy was that an uphill battle with a table full of Bud Light!

[GENE13]

If there is 4707 liters of hydrogen in a gallon of water as Rod has stated, that is like saying there is over 1243+ gallons of hydrogen coming out of only 1 gallon of water. Now I wonder how many hydrogen atoms are in those 1243+ gallons of hydrogen? I don't see where perpetual motion has anything to do with the extracting of hydrogen from water. A hydrogen bomb surely releases much more energy than is put into it. There's that CHAIN REACTION thing again on a smaller scale, we have discovered that by splitting water we end up getting more of something (hydrogen) than the base (water) that we started with. "we started with 1 gallon of water and ended up with 1243+ gallons of hydrogen".

I can see the possibilities, but I'm still an electric guy when it comes to automotive motors, LOL :-)

[ponyboy]

Will,

You'll have to keep us updated on how this thing works out.

Here's an older thread about some more efficient ways to make hydrogen.

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/safe-inexpensive-hydrogen-fuel-your-car

[Cheam]

well I dusted off my old chemistry muscles. here we go.

1gal= 3.785kg water, water is 1/9 H by weight so there is 0.4205 Kg of H per gallon

H2= 143 MJ/Kg so there are 60.14 Mj per Kg.

1 Hp/hour= 2.685Mj so there are 22 hp/hours in a gallon of water

for comparison there are 131 Mj per gallon of gasoline, which is 48 hp/hours per gallon. so if your car gets 30 mpg on gasoline you would get just under 15 mpg on pure hydrogen.

for a given volume of gas, gasoline has 17.6x the energy content of hydrogen, for a given weight hydrogen has 3x the energy

there are also 1.264*10exp26 H2 molecules per gallon of water.

Unfortunately there is self-sustaining chemical chain reaction that will produce fuel in the end. splitting water is endothermic and burning hydrogen and oxygen is exothermic. the exothermicness is what makes hydrogen a fuel.

even if these people make a hydrogen generator 100% efficient the cars alternator is only 90% efficient, so the system is already behind the 8-ball, so I am going to go and stand next to rod, and say it won't work.

[spiralsands]

A hydrogen bomb surely releases much more energy than is put into it.

A Hydrogen bomb splits the atom, not a molecule.

H2 is produced in every battery by the splitting of an acid molecule. Oxygen is also produced in that same battery by the oxidizing of the battery plates. But once released they instantaneously fuse creating water which keeps the electrolyte a particular strength and level. To reap hydrogen, you would have to keep the released gases separate as soon as they were released. You would have to somehow filter the gases to pick the hydrogen molecule away from an Oxygen atom. Good luck!

Just as a side note the Japanese also built a solar car that had a a steering wheel that wasn't attached to the car. Sort of like a wireless mouse? The Germans have built a diesel car that gets over a 150 miles per gallon. Now THAT car, I can't remember its name, they expect to actually produce in Europe in the next few years. It was shown at the Belgium Auto Show this year. I read about it on line while researching a possible new car for myself. I accidently left the back windows down on my convertible and then it rained for 18 hours. So rather than grow mushrooms on the rug, I thought I might trade it in. With that German car I would be able to make a weeks worth of trips back and forth to work on one gallon of diesel. With my truck, which I am forced to drive while the detailer shop dries my car out, I get only one trip back and forth for a gallon and a half.

[GENE13]

A hydrogen bomb surely releases much more energy than is put into it.

A Hydrogen bomb splits the atom, not a molecule.

H2 is produced in every battery by the splitting of an acid molecule. Oxygen is also produced in that same battery by the oxidizing of the battery plates. But once released they instantaneously fuse creating water which keeps the electrolyte a particular strength and level. To reap hydrogen, you would have to keep the released gases separate as soon as they were released. You would have to somehow filter the gases to pick the hydrogen molecule away from an Oxygen atom. Good luck!

Just as a side note the Japanese also built a solar car that had a a steering wheel that wasn't attached to the car. Sort of like a wireless mouse? The Germans have built a diesel car that gets over a 150 miles per gallon. Now THAT car, I can't remember its name, they expect to actually produce in Europe in the next few years. It was shown at the Belgium Auto Show this year. I read about it on line while researching a possible new car for myself. I accidently left the back windows down on my convertible and then it rained for 18 hours. So rather than grow mushrooms on the rug, I thought I might trade it in. With that German car I would be able to make a weeks worth of trips back and forth to work on one gallon of diesel. With my truck, which I am forced to drive while the detailer shop dries my car out, I get only one trip back and forth for a gallon and a half.





TO THE CONTRARY, I never said otherwise, YES A Hydrogen bomb splits the atom, not a molecule.
However, keep in mind a molecule is also made up of atoms..............



My thread was based on what Rod said about perpetual motion. I was commenting that an atom can give off a terminus amount of energy in comparison to the energy put in to it, and that it does so because of a chain reaction that takes place. I further thorized that (IF) through electrolysis we could create a chain reaction, "NOT AN ATOMIC REACTION, WE'RE NOT MAKING BOMBS" then we would be able to create more energy out-put, then the energy that it would take to run the electrolysis.

Like Rod I also believe it's possible, and can be used, "as I said in a prior thread", in a supplemental way.

I hope this clears up my meaning. :-)

[Klapton]

I think that some of these people are on to something different. Rather than simply use straight current, they use a square wave pulse. Some of the "hydrogen tap" videos on YouTube show people's hoome-brew experiments using Meyer's model (or what they think his was -- he's another one who claimed to have a 100% HHO on demand car, who died an untimely death...)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hydrogen+tap&search_sort=video_date_uploaded

I sorted this search to show the most recent ones first. The experiments are often not very scientifically controlled -- very amateur.

This guy is using some kind of oscillator. http://www.freewebs.com/jhines2/index.htm http://www.youtube.com/madscientist67

EDIT: From madscientist67's youtube page, if you look at his subscriptions, theres a bunch of other experimenters there.

Do you guys who have a clue how electicity works think they might be on to something? Might it be possible that pulsing the electricity at the right frequency and with the right plate setup might increase the output per unit of energy? (That's how clueless I am... I'm not even sure what unit to use -- volts? amps?)

EDIT: I found a copy of Stan Meyer's patent. Maybe it will make sense to one of you guys, lol. http://www.waterforfuel.com/209207861.pdf

[spiralsands]

Usually an oscillator is used to create a sine wave which is then processed to make a square wave. A square wave is a combination of the frequency and its harmonics and then cleaned up for whatever it's used for. In electronics it is usually used for timing purposes or a switching signal. But I haven't a clue how it would be used to liberate hydrogen or break up a water molecule.

A battery producing H2 and O is vented to prevent explosions. Explosions can happen if the gasses are trapped and overheated. Which is why checking battery temperature is usually a good maintenance practice. Maybe there's a technology in there somewhere that may find its way to reality but it doesn't seem that any of the videos I watched really explained what it was. Maybe I'm missing it I did notice in one video where a guy was giving his presentation he kept referring to his patent. If he has a patent or one pending he probably isn't going to reveal his process unless he thinks he's gonna make some money. He just never came clean with the basic theory. So I don't know what to make of it.

Just for your info Klapton, the frequency is how many cycles that sine or square waves occur in a second. Sixty cycles is your frequency for alternating current that runs your house. Your house AC is usually at 120 volts which is how big the sine wave is and the current, the amps is the force (like water through a hose) that it travels. Batteries produce Direct current which does not oscillate. It is either positive or negative in relationship to ground potential. Don't know if this helps at all. I think it's an interesting chat anyway.

[Klapton]

I guess what I don't get is which measure best describes the amount of ENERGY involved in the big picture. So, let me explain my understanding of the big picture...

H-gas production would have to start from a battery. Energy from the battery zaps the water, producing the H-gas. The H-gas burns in an internal combustion engine, turning the explosive energy into movement (spinning). The spinning causes the alternator to generate electricity which then feeds the H-gas production AND makes the car move.

The problem with this is that burning the H-gas doesn't produce enough energy to generate enough electricity to keep producing enough H-gas using electrolysis as we know it, let alone enough surplus energy to move a car at the same time. This all makes sense to me.

The question, I guess, is whether or not doing something to the electricity (something that does NOT require more raw energy) can increase the amount of H-gas produced from the electrolysis. This is where the wave patterns come in. If I understand correctly, it should be possible to manipulate the electical current to pulse or something without actually increasing the overall energy (again, this "overall energy" is the measure I'm not sure how to express) used.

[rreidnauer]

The Germans have built a diesel car that gets over a 150 miles per gallon. Now THAT car, I can't remember its name, they expect to actually produce in Europe in the next few years. It was shown at the Belgium Auto Show this year. I read about it on line while researching a possible new car for myself. I accidently left the back windows down on my convertible and then it rained for 18 hours. So rather than grow mushrooms on the rug, I thought I might trade it in. With that German car I would be able to make a weeks worth of trips back and forth to work on one gallon of diesel.
YES YES YES!!!! Now you're talking. The heck with 60 MPG hybrids that cost you more $/mile when you account for the cost of battery replacements. What a waste of resources. Germany nailed with a simple, straight 120 MPG diesel solution. (they bumped the specs down) Loremo (http://evolution.loremo.com/index.php?lang=en) (Low Resistance Mobile) is what I'd love my next car to be. Unfortunately, there's no plans to import this vehicle into the USA. :-( I've been hounding them, and they state it's due to difficult/expensive US safety standards. I believe it's more a marketing issue, being that Americans love big honkin' gas guzzlers, and Loremo doesn't see a profitable path with Americans likely to pull their noses up at a 20 HP car. (they also have a 50 HP version @ 80 MPH, and now an electric li-Ion version too) The projected price has since gone up massively since it's inception. (from $13K to $24K) Basically due to quelling over-optimistic construction costs and the weakening dollar. They've also backed up the production start from originally in 2009 to sometime in 2010.

Anyhow, run that puppy on Biodiesel or WVO, and put all to shame. :-)

[StressMan79]

A hydrogen bomb does no splitting of any kind. It fuses Hydrogen into helium (using a rarer isotope Deuterium, but I digress). There is less mass in the helium than in the 2 hydrogens, so Einstein says that that mass turns into energy (Energy=mass * constant^2). Anyway. I haven't followed this whole thread, so I cannot comment further, just know that we (humanity) have only been able to do anything nuclear for maybe 70 years... Anything cabin related will be purely chemical, where mass, charge, energy are all distinct and conserved.

[GENE13]

There are two kinds of hydrogen bomb, Fusion and Fission.
Also there are three basic design types that causes a nuclear weapon to detonate, In all three, the explosive energy is derived primarily from nuclear fission NOT FUSION. Fusion cannot be self-sustaining because it does not produce the heat and pressure necessary for more fusion. It produces neutrons which run away with the energy. In weapons, the most important fusion reaction is called the D-T reaction. Using the heat and pressure of fission, hydrogen-2, or deuterium ( 2D), fuses with hydrogen-3, or tritium ( 3T), to form helium-4 ( 4He) plus one neutron (n) and energy:
Whenever a heavy atom undergoes nuclear fission it BREAKS INTO TWO OR MORE fission fragments. Also, several free neutrons, gamma rays, and neutrinos are emitted, and a large amount of energy is released. The sum of the masses of the fission fragments and ejected neutrons is actually less than the mass of original atom and incident neutron. The mass difference is accounted for in the release of energy according to the equation E=mc2:
The uranium atom can split any one of dozens of different ways, as long as the atomic weights add up to 236

[ponyboy]

Here's a 130 mpg car that's going to compete the automotive X prize.

http://www.valentintechnologies.com/concept/default.asp

[spiralsands]

Lo[/b]w Resistance Mobile) is what I'd love my next car to be. Unfortunately, there's no plans to import this vehicle into the USA. :-( I've been hounding them, and they state it's due to difficult/expensive US safety standards. I believe it's more a marketing issue, being that Americans love big honkin' gas guzzlers, and Loremo doesn't see a profitable path with Americans likely to pull their noses up at a 20 HP car. (they also have a 50 HP version @ 80 MPH, and now an electric li-Ion version too) The projected price has since gone up massively since it's inception. (from $13K to $24K) Basically due to quelling over-optimistic construction costs and the weakening dollar. They've also backed up the production start from originally in 2009 to sometime in 2010. Anyhow, run that puppy on Biodiesel or WVO, and put all to shame. :-)

Back when I was being all I can be in the military, I had a little car over in Japan. It was a two cylinder jobbie called a Honda Minica. It looked like a tiny tiny SUV but had what was no bigger than a motorcycle engine. I think the top speed was about 50-60 MPH. At 60, you were probably cheating death flying down hill but the roads over there were not designed for high speed anyway. At that time, the 70's, I was told that I could not bring my car back to the states because it did not have enough horsepower to be road rated. These days it's safety standards? I see people riding scooters in heavy American traffic but I can't drive a little Japanese Micro-SUV?

By the way, I found out on another forum that was discussing energy issues that diesel over in Germany sells for almost 11 bucks a gallon. I was floored.

A sign of things to come...I saw a group of white guys on bicycles in front of a local grocery store. One biker was towing a bicycle trailer carrying a cooler that he was filling with ice and beer. Another guy was towing a passenger compartment that looked like a 'rickshaw'. And another guy had a side car on his bicycle and had another really big dude as a passenger. The 'driver' was wearing a cone hat...you know, the same cone hats the Chinese peasants wear? Then there were two boy children who had saddlebag-like cargo compartments on their respective bikes. I think the energy of the future is going to be the measured in the miles per pound of hamburger meat we consume.

[2 cents]

Sprialsands wrote:
"I think the energy of the future is going to be the measured in the miles per pound of hamburger meat we consume."

Or like my husband likes to say, 'I get 5 miles per apple.' :)
We often bike to work and it's 5 miles each way. He was really thinking ahead when he based his job search on how close it was to where we were living. Now I work at the same place too, instead of downtown.

2 cents

[Klapton]

http://www.romanreign.com/index.4.jpg
http://www.alpinez.net/images/Breed_Info/Historicalphotogals30.jpg
http://www.rrgsmd.com/draftv1.jpg
Just to show that other dogs can do it too...
http://www.tcrocker.ca/akitagirl.jpg
http://www.rrgsmd.com/draftvehicles.htm

Some may take this post as a joke. It's not. I'm planning to do this. Hopefully there will be at least one small-town grocery within a couple miles of where I'll build. Another thing I figure I can train my dogs to do is pull a gang of reel mowers to cut my grass too. And these dogs LOVE doing this. That's the coolest thing.

I had a hard time finding a two-dog image that wasn't blocked by my office firewall (I'm at the office today). But they make two-dog harnesses, and I've seen historical photos of GSMD's pulling carts with a dozen or more children riding on the back, and carts with a dozen or so large milk canisters.

Dog food is much cheaper, and much more environmentally friendly than gasoline!

[spiralsands]

Some may take this post as a joke. It's not. I'm planning to do this. Hopefully there will be at least one small-town grocery within a couple miles of where I'll build. Another thing I figure I can train my dogs to do is pull a gang of reel mowers to cut my grass too. And these dogs LOVE doing this. That's the coolest thing.

I had a hard time finding a two-dog image that wasn't blocked by my office firewall (I'm at the office today). But they make two-dog harnesses, and I've seen historical photos of GSMD's pulling carts with a dozen or more children riding on the back, and carts with a dozen or so large milk canisters.

Dog food is much cheaper, and much more environmentally friendly than gasoline!

Why use a mower? Put a few donkeys out there so after they mow the grass they can then pull your cart. Sheep and goats are good too. Free fertilizer. The best stringbeans I ever grew were fed composted sheep pellets. My land is about 4 miles from Dolgeville. If the Amish can drive their horse carts into Dolgeville, so can I.

(Talk about us hijacking a thread!! HA HA!)

[Klapton]

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

[Timberwolf]

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

Until they get their head kicked in. Donkeys are the king of barnyard and will defend to the death.

Of course, they do poop on the grass...

[spiralsands]

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

Lawn?? No lawn for me! I have 2 big hayfields. Don't need the pesticides and herbicides associated with the suburban illusion. I live in subrurbia now and I hate lawn care. I have 4 dogs right now and they do take care of the house but outside is for the livestock. And herbivore poo is great fertilizer.

[Timber]

A goose makes excellent watch--attackers. They will attack an ontruder. Corse if someone gets hungry-your goose is cooked!

Ron

[Klapton]

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

Lawn?? No lawn for me! I have 2 big hayfields. Don't need the pesticides and herbicides associated with the suburban illusion. I live in subrurbia now and I hate lawn care. I have 4 dogs right now and they do take care of the house but outside is for the livestock. And herbivore poo is great fertilizer.
A perfect lawn, for me, is like ridge pole envy. The perfection of my lawn reflects my moral superiority over my neighbors, and the immensity of my manhood.
http://www.larryslogcabin.com/SuperiorLawn.jpg

My plan is to have a small, absolutely perfect lawn, and put the rest of my land to some more productive use.

[Timber]

I know Rottweilers are cart pullers. I myself have Siberian Huskies-very people friendly dogs. Worthless watch dogs-I dislike mean dogs! My male Siberian dog named Champ could really pull your cart. If he gets distracted though-its where ever he wants to go. These dogs hate discipline-and they love to dig-deep holes. They also hate confinement and constantly look for a way to escape. My dog was into an area I had fenced off and I could not figure out how he got back there. So I Picked him up he weighs 80 lbs.and put him in his large back-yard and called him into the fenced off area. What happened next I could not believe. He was standing up smashing himself against trees that are along the fence even hurting himself as he was yelping standing walking along between the fence and trees. It took some time for him to do this. I would never of guessed he would or could do that. What can i say ,my dog is crazy-so i had to fence the fence-off, haha,chain link against redwood.

Ron

[JD]

How about this for an alternate form of transportation? They make great companions too.
http://www.harnessgoats.co.uk/

Klapton, more power to you with your yard. Some folks derive great pleasure in working their yard. That's cool but I'm definately not one of them. I once turned my horses out in the front yard all summer just so I wouldn't have to mow.

JD

[Timberwolf]

Will be over the septic bed. Grass is meant to be eaten, not mown. Only the hay gets cut. We have about an acre of grass where we are now and I hate it!

My neighbour has 3-4 acres of grass... spends his whole summer cutting it every 2 days and washing the paint off his car. Has the biggest lawn tractor I've ever seen.

I laugh...

But I digress. If that's your bag, more power to ya.

[Yuhjn]

These dogs hate discipline-and they love to dig-deep holes. They also hate confinement and constantly look for a way to escape. My dog was into an area I had fenced off and I could not figure out how he got back there. So I Picked him up he weighs 80 lbs.and put him in his large back-yard and called him into the fenced off area. What happened next I could not believe. He was standing up smashing himself against trees that are along the fence even hurting himself as he was yelping standing walking along between the fence and trees. Ron


Ok first of all no dog "hates discipline"... in fact dogs thrive on it. (all dogs)

Your problem is that your dog is not getting enough structured excercise. A large "working dog" like that needs at least 2 hours of structured excercise EVERY DAY. If it doesnt get it, it builds pent up energy and frustration. The result of that frustration can be horrible, as you are seeing.

It doesnt matter how large your backyard is, if the dog spends all day there by itself your dog will have problems.

Dont blame the dog, it's the owner who is to blame.

I'm sorry if this email sounds harsh but I see this all the time with dog owners... they blame their dog for it's discipline problems when they are in fact the cause of the problem.

If you really want to help your dog to lead a happy, healthy, and full life, I suggest you research the teachings of this man:

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/

And for the record, pulling a cart around would make a PERFECT job for your dog. It's ironic that you think your dog cant do it because it has mental problems, but those mental problems are actually caused by it's lack of excercise. The very thing you think your dog wont do is exactly what your dog needs! Ironic. :)

Hitch your dog to a cart and after 15-20 minutes once it figures out what you want it to do, it will LOVE pulling the cart. Dogs love to work for you, they love the pack, they love excercise and discipline.

I promise you that if you hitch your dog to a cart and have it pull stuff around for an hour a day all your discipline, digging, and any other obsessive behavior the dog is exibiting will vanish into thin air. (I'm quite sure your dog exibits other obsessive behaviors.. that's always goes right along with lack of excercie... ESPECIALLY in a "working dog" that was bred to work all day long.... take a dog that is bred to work, put it in isolation and deprive it of excercise, and you get a dog with obsessive behavior and discipline issues.

Also please dont say that "he has a huge backyard, he can run and excercise all he wants". Unfortunatley that's not how it works. Dogs do not excercise themselves. They need YOU to do it with them. That's why I call it structured excercise.

Walking your dog, playing fetch, and things of that nature help, but with a really high energy working breed, you often need more than that. Having your dog carry a doggie-backpack is another great way to excercise your dog... And pulling a cart around is even harder work. Sounds like exactly what your dog needs to me.

List of things obsessive dogs tend to do (obsessive dog is caused by lack of excercise)
obsessive digging
trying to "escape"
tail chasing
dog-dog aggression
obsessive licking or chewing (both of itself and/or outside items like rocks)
dog-human aggression
obsessive barking and/or whining

All of those issues can be easily fixed with DAILY structured excercise. I've seen dogs that will chew holes in themselves, other dogs that will break their own teeth chewing on rocks. I've seen dogs that will attack on site anything and anyone they dont know. Dogs that will bark 16 hours a day, every day. ALL OF THOSE dogs came back from their problems with the correct application of structured excercise.

Anyway sorry for the rant but you struck a nerve. If your dog is acting that way, it means it's suffering.

[Klapton]

PSSSSHHTT!!!
/poke

Your post is way too excited, bordering on dominant, lol.

Another Dog Whiperer fan, hehe.

[Timber]

I have seen the show and the guy is amazing.

Ron

[GENE13]

First, I'm obsessive about the perfection of my lawn. Grazing isn't going to cut it for me. Second, dogs do lots of other things like provide companionship and frighten potential tresspassers.

Lawn?? No lawn for me! I have 2 big hayfields. Don't need the pesticides and herbicides associated with the suburban illusion. I live in subrurbia now and I hate lawn care. I have 4 dogs right now and they do take care of the house but outside is for the livestock. And herbivore poo is great fertilizer.
A perfect lawn, for me, is like ridge pole envy. The perfection of my lawn reflects my moral superiority over my neighbors, and the immensity of my manhood.
http://www.larryslogcabin.com/SuperiorLawn.jpg

My plan is to have a small, absolutely perfect lawn, and put the rest of my land to some more productive use.



I must admit that is a really great looking lawn, can I assume there is also a very nice irrigation system as well? Also, in what state is it located and what type of seed was used.
Very-Very nice :-)

[Klapton]

Nope. No sprinklers. I believe this shot was in spring. But raising your cutting deck as high as it will go in the hot summer months will go a long way toward keeping your lawn from burning. (My morally inferior neighbors with their diminutive manhoods keep scalping their lawns into summer, of course.) Last summer I only watered twice. (Infrequent, DEEP watering is best -- encourages deep root growth, as opposed to light, frequent watering which encourages shallow root growth.) I have one of those "tractor" sprinklers that follows the hose. So I set it up to do a loop around the back, then reset it for the front/side.

The other thing I do is reduce the amount of fertilizer I apply, and apply it twice as often. So while my inferior neighbor's lawns wane between feedings, mine remains deep and lush. For my dream log home, I'm thinking about installing a "fertigation" system in my small, perfect lawn. Something like this: http://www.greentouchirrigation.com/SarGreen-Complete-Lawn-Fertilizing-System-P1367C266.aspx That way I can feed the perfect amount of fertilizer each week to ensure maxiumum greenage all the time.

When the builder built the home, he seeded it with some crappy builder's grade stuff. I overseeded that first fall, and again the next spring with Scott's Pure Premium Kentucky Bluegrass mix. I'm afraid I still have lots of the crappy ryegrasses from the original planting though.

[Yuhjn]

PSSSSHHTT!!!
/poke

Your post is way too excited, bordering on dominant, lol.

Another Dog Whiperer fan, hehe.


LOL. I suppose you're right... I was afraid my post was way too aggressive... But I kept getting mental images of this husky obsessively digging holes in a desperate effort to spend some of that toxic pent-up energy.

Perhaps I need more excercise myself.... :)



On 2nd reading I feel bad. Sorry Rob. I shouldnt have gone off like that.

I think I'm just really frustrated by my own fence... my own cage. I'm stuck in there and chewing my own hands off trying to get out. That frustration sometimes comes out in my relations to others. So sorry about that. :(

[Yuhjn]

Nope. No sprinklers. I believe this shot was in spring. ....


Wow. That's some serious lawn! Ever try a garden?

[GENE13]

Nope. No sprinklers. I believe this shot was in spring. But raising your cutting deck as high as it will go in the hot summer months will go a long way toward keeping your lawn from burning. (My morally inferior neighbors with their diminutive manhoods keep scalping their lawns into summer, of course.) Last summer I only watered twice. (Infrequent, DEEP watering is best -- encourages deep root growth, as opposed to light, frequent watering which encourages shallow root growth.) I have one of those "tractor" sprinklers that follows the hose. So I set it up to do a loop around the back, then reset it for the front/side.

The other thing I do is reduce the amount of fertilizer I apply, and apply it twice as often. So while my inferior neighbor's lawns wane between feedings, mine remains deep and lush. For my dream log home, I'm thinking about installing a "fertigation" system in my small, perfect lawn. Something like this: http://www.greentouchirrigation.com/SarGreen-Complete-Lawn-Fertilizing-System-P1367C266.aspx That way I can feed the perfect amount of fertilizer each week to ensure maxiumum greenage all the time.

When the builder built the home, he seeded it with some crappy builder's grade stuff. I overseeded that first fall, and again the next spring with Scott's Pure Premium Kentucky Bluegrass mix. I'm afraid I still have lots of the crappy ryegrasses from the original planting though.


Must contractor "well actually 99% will unless advised otherwise" will use a cheap contractors mix,, like Kentucky 31, and as you know it does have a lot of Rye grass in it cause the Rye grass will root faster and grow faster giving the more preferred grass a better soil bond to start with. You are doing it right though, I can't believe how many people scalp their lawns in the summer time and as a result stress out their grass, giving other non-preferred weeds etc. a chance to take over. Very Well Done !!!!! You hit every nail on the head. I give to you my famous tilt the hat award for excellence.
O\
/l\
/\

[tanderson]

I love getting out in the yard and making it look nice. When I bought this place 12 years ago, a new front yard was one of my first major projects. To this day I still have one of the nicest yard on the entire street (at least in the front). The problem is my neighbor has one of the worst, and it's bermuda grass on top of that! Dead in the winter (N. Cal, zone 9 I think (sunset western gardener)) and invasive the rest of the year. What a pain in the rear, it's always getting in my plants, crawling under the fence, trying to grow into my shed, GRR! It's taken over the backyard. I wish I could carpet bomb it with napalm! As I'm mowing the yards and thinking about log homes, it often crosses my mind that a new home would mean NO MORE BERMUDA GRASS!

If we believe in absurdities, we will commit atrocities. -Voltaire

[rreidnauer]

He he - Reminds me of a story about the last place I was at. My property was well shaded with a fairly decent lawn. The adjacent neighbor directly behind me had an open yard with what must have been 99% weeds. (no joke, you were hard pressed to find a fistful of grass blades) Well, I got sick of those weeds constantly trying to invade into my lawn, so I got some Zoysiagrass plugs, and placed a couple lines across the back line. Zoysiagrass being a very sun hungry grass, rapidly spread into his "lawn". Also a very thick and tough grass, it's a b***h to mow. I had a Lawnboy two-stroke mower that went through it with ease, but his tired Briggs was taking a beating.

Not sure if he ever caught on to just what happened, but I know weed encroachment was no longer an issue. :-)

[greenthumb]

That is one beautiful lawn! You need my username... lol.

So this fellow I know locally has implemented a hydroxy boost system onto his cummins/dodge pickup. I haven't spoken with him directly, but the word is he is getting 23mpg, but it was only 17 before the conversion. Here are some links:

http://hydrogengarage.com/hydrogenboost.html
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.html (I'm going off of this right now)
http://water4gas.com/2books.htm

I think he used the directions from the middle link for his 'kit'.

[greenthumb]

My brother just showed me his hydroxy generator- he lit a match over the bubbler. It's pretty fun to watch the tiny bubbles exploding. :grin:

Don't know if it is really cost effective yet- still haven't put one on his truck.

[Will Dye]

Hey Ponyboy, Rod, Klapton, anybody else that is interested in this subject. I talked to my dad and he built his electrolizer and has it installed on a mid 90's Camry. He said he has noticed about three miles to the gallon increased mileage. He also told me that he needed to do some more work tweaking a few things. That's all I know about it for now, I will let you know if anything changes.

[ponyboy]

Thanks for the update. I might have to look a little closer at this thing.
Although I don't think I have enough room under the hood of my car to fit
one of these. :-)

[Will Dye]

Ya know, I may be wrong but I have long thought that you could probably nearly double the average mileage of every car on the road today with ease! The city mileage anyway. Here in Louisville in the downtown area they have all the red lights sequenced together. So if you get caught at one when you take off if you do the speed limit (35 down town) you cruise right through all the lights and never waste any gas on that stop and go crap AND you don't do nearly as much wear and tear on your vehicle. I wish they would do that all over town. I notice now that at some lights I might as well not even try to get up to the speed limit because the next red light catches you every time.I mean think about it. If they sequenced all the lights in a city together look at all the good it would do. Less traffic congestion, better mileage for every vehicle on the road, it would get rid of alot of aggressive driving because who would speed when they realized they get where they are going faster by driving at a steady pace? What would it take? The computing power of a Coleco Vision or Atari 2600 to link the lights in a sequence at a set speed? LOL

[greenthumb]

Ponyboy, just mount it to the hood, fashioned so it looks like the Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future. Surely you can get a TDI beetle to 88 mph! :D

[rreidnauer]

Hey Ponyboy, Rod, Klapton, anybody else that is interested in this subject. I talked to my dad and he built his electrolizer and has it installed on a mid 90's Camry. He said he has noticed about three miles to the gallon increased mileage. He also told me that he needed to do some more work tweaking a few things. That's all I know about it for now, I will let you know if anything changes.
That sounds very much in line with what I would have expected.

[GENE13]

Does your dad's Camry have electronic fuel injection or throttle body? :-)

[ponyboy]

Ponyboy, just mount it to the hood, fashioned so it looks like the Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future. Surely you can get a TDI beetle to 88 mph! :D

But then where would I put the flux capacitor.... :-)

I wish my bug had a sixth gear for those higher speeds.

[ponyboy]

Here's another story about someone using hydrogen in their car.

http://www.whnt.com/Global/story.asp?S=8311741&nav=menu108_1