solar radiant floor heating article

[slasher]

Anyone else read that article a couple months back in Mother Earth?

The home built solar system seems like a heck of an idea. Anyone else have this peak their interest? The guy has a heck of a website with a wealth of info... I am looking forward to attending the April class and believe that I may try to incorporate elements of this system when I do build.

I was curious as the article seemed quite interesting and I was surprised not to see anyone on here comment on it... Anyone else think it would do well?

[Klapton]

I'd be interested to read it. Gotta linkie?

[slasher]

I'd be interested to read it. Gotta linkie?

I posted it, but now can't find it... I guess it was considered a commercial website, thus not allowed... (Sorry mods, I just reread the rules since I think it got pulled... I read it before I posted and thought it would be okay under #8, but probably ran afoul of #11)

Klapton, I went back and dug out it was the cover story for Dec 07. You should be able to get the info or back copy from the library

[Timberwolf]

Mother Earth website and search "solar for any home" and you'll find it. However, like many Mother articles of late, they don't include all the details you need to construct it on your own.

The only thing about the setup for this particular solar system is, that like all of them, they will only get you about 50-70% of your heat, depending on climate. You always need supplemental if you live where it's really cold. Not that that's a problem, just something to take into account.

[slasher]

The author of the article has a decent website (search for it and numerous links to various solar sites that should help with the engineering and design)... I am sure that in my neck of the woods (SE) it'd probably work fine As our temps don't dip so low and our solar gain should help greatly... It seems interesting to me the fact that there is no need for a heat exchanger (and the inherent losses) which in theory should allow the system to be more efficient and simpler to build, operate and maintain.

I was thinking the effects of thermal mass would allow it to provide more of the heat than in a stick built house like the author had. But in conjunction with a wood stove or two, I believe it would handle anything one might need....

If nothing else his homemade design for laying the radiant floor system in general makes me want to incorporate it when I build...

[Timberwolf]

in our current house and we love it, it's not perfect (nothing is) and the installer(s) made some critical errors, which have given us some headaches. Like any heating/cooling system, there's alway pros/cons, climate considerations, and cost vs what you are willing to live with. I would definately do it again, but probably not right away when we build, other than puting Ipex in the basement slab when we do the pour, just because the initial cost can be a little daunting. Mortgage free is the first goal, luxuries come later.

I'll have to look at the article again and dig around on his website.


Jason.

[Valerie]

You said, "in our current house and we love it, it's not perfect (nothing is) and the installer(s) made some critical errors, which have given us some headaches. Like any heating/cooling system, there's alway pros/cons, climate considerations, and cost vs what you are willing to live with."

I'm looking at this, too, and would love to know more, since you have it and would do it again.

What errors, what pros/cons, costs, etc. ?

(I'm going to the early April class as well, and am trying my best to get my "want" list together to take with me for input.)

Valerie

[Timberwolf]

Hang on... this is gonna be a long one.

It really is a love/hate thing our heating system.

I think I can nail down the the problems to 2 categories.

Improper install.
Ours was set up early in the early evolution of these heating systems, it is still a second generation system (uses Ipex instead of copper pipe) but the installer did alot of things wrong, and the homeowner skimped on things. (Incidently I called the contractor who installed it, about coming to fix some of the deficencies (at my expense) and he told me he wasn't interested. I guess I'll hurry up and recommend him to my friends).
I had to have my plumper rework some of the piping for better flow and replace a bunch of leaky valves.
When the basement slab was poured, no insulation was put under the floor, a lot of heat is lot thru there.
The piping from the boiler is not properly insulated.
For the upper floor, the ipex plumbing was just stapled under the subfloor and the floor is too thick for proper heat transfer.

Heat source.
Outdoor wood fired boiler. I used to think these were the greatest idea ever. Conceptually the are, in practice, all the ones currently on the market range from barely adequate to downright awful. They are inefficent, polluting, expensive, a maintainence headache and they go through wood like a sawmill.


What I have done/would do if I ever did it differently (possibly lot of variables here).

Installation.
The best install (in my opinion) in terms of heating effecency is in a cement slab. The slab has tons of thermal mass, and creates a flywheel effect (once it's charged, it can stay warm for days, assuming it is properly insulated). Of course, the downside to this is that in the spring/fall when the weather can yoyo up and down, you are either too hot or too cold waiting for the slab to heat/cool. That and you need a really strong subfloor if you want to have it above the basement. It can be done, but it adds costs (more on that later). Another caveat, if you built on a floating slab (edge reinforced, whatever) you better make damn sure it's done right, because if the slab ever shifts, or cracks or heaves, even a little bit, game over! Broken pipe(s). Think jackhammers in the bedroom (I know someone it happened too).
Under the subfloor/in the subfloor installs are ok, and a bunch cheaper (depending). I've been adding reflective foil bubble insulation between the joists of our house to push more heat up. Just make sure you think about your finished floor before hand. Hardwood is ok. Tile is pretty much the same as concrete. Laminates are crap (in my opinion) as most of them just reflect the heat back. Carpet is to insulating.
I would take a hard look at the Radiantec company website, at least for ideas on how to set up the heating zones, they have really good diagrams and base the concepts on simplicity of design and operation.
You need backup generator (or solar off grid) or another heat source in case of power failure, no power, no pump(s) no heat.

Generally radiant is expensive not matter what way you go. I'm trying to find a balance that will bring me all my heat/DHW in one system that doesn't cost a ridiculous amount upfront.

Heat source.
Finding a good balance is a tricky proposition. Most have some deficiency...all can be overcome with $$.

Outdoor wood boiler.
Don't even get me started. Expensive in the short term and long term (despite what the manufacturers say). The better ones (and I hesitate to use that word) are 10-15k Cdn. Lots of time (loading) and lots of maintainence. www.woodheat.org has lots more. I know someone will razz me for bashing these things. Go ahead. Some have a dual fuel option (necessary if you ever want a winter vacation, unless you have a willing neighbour, but trust me, after the first year, he may not be so willing again).

Indoor wood boiler.
This would likely be my choice. Not all are created equal, and there are damn few on the Can/US market. Not perfect. Why? Initial cost/maintainence, but they burn waaay less wood and should last longer. Way more efficent. Also dual fuel options.

Gas/propane/coal/electric/oil etc. boiler.
Initial cost is not nearly as high as the other 2. Operating costs can be awful, depending on where you live. This comes down to regional differences. If you only heat 3 months of the year and natural gas is available and cheap, great. I refuse to be a slave to any megacorp. None of these is cheap (or available) where I live. Even if they were, it's unlikely they will stay that way. I've got all the wood I'll ever need, as long as I can cut it.

Solar.
Expensive(ish) upfront costs. Needs one of the above as backup. Won't cut it in my climate alone (most others either). That said, I'm looking a building a DIY solar batch heater for summer and spring/fall water preheating.
There is a owner created website www.daycreek.com This guy (Richard) built a home (cordwood) based on alot of the principles of the members here. Great info on his solar/hybrid heating system. Worth checking out.

Geothermal.
As I've mentioned before in previous posts expensive and not really DIY (not that it can't be, but you need to know what you are doing).

The other thing to consider, that I rarely hear about is your water source. That alone should have broke the deal for our current house. If you have a low input (shallow well, wellpoint, whatever then you could have a problem. Also, water quality. Hard water is death to these systems. Iron is death to these systems. If you have really hard water (like we do) even with a softner, we are introducing a lot of salt into the system, which is corrosive and builds up deposits like crazy.

Oh, and you don't have any cooling or duct work for AC if that floats your boat. You can get half way there with Geothermal.


Now that I've scared you away from radiant....

It's still great heat. Love it. Throughly thought out (do LOTS of research) it can work for you. Just lots of factors to consider, but that goes for any heating system.

For us, when we build, I intend to put Ipex in my basement slab (properly, because once you pour, that's it) and install a really good woodstove in the main living area. As we go forward and can afford it, then I'll look at putting things together over time (mortgage free is foremost).

Still working out the whole hot water (at least domestic) from wood for cheap thing.

I'm sure that doesn't cover everything... and I really would like to hear from anybody and their expericence/ideas especially if you like somewhere really cold.

Jason.

[Valerie]

I appreciate the input.

You hit on a few key factors I need to consider; the ability to leave it for periods of time, water quality issues, etc. so I'm grateful for the time you took in responding.

Considering the inefficiencies of what you've got now, for you to still like what you have and want to have it in your new place, speaks highly of it's potentials. I'm one of those who needs to sleep with socks on, and can't stand the cold tiles in my Arizona home, so I am sure I would love radiant heat. I hope I can find a way to make it work.

Thanks again,

Valerie

[Timberwolf]

If you are in Arizona, solar with some sort of backup for the (short?) winter might work really well for you at resonable cost (especially if you go with one of the DIY solar options (Mother Earth News did one recently, and it's been mentioned in the last couple of days (by me even) I think it's called "Solar for any home".) Since Arizona has a lot of solar days even when it's cold (at least I think it does, not 100% up on my US Geography) then your fuel cost would likely be pretty low. Unfortunately I need something with a lot more fortitude up here, otherwise I'd do something to that effect.

Oh and don't get rid of that tile if you build, it does double duty, cool in summer, warm in winter (with Radiant. ;-) ).

Good luck.

Jason.

[Valerie]

We're averaging over 100 days of 100 degee days/year now, and over 33 of them with temps over 110. Yeah, and summer nighttime temperatures don't go below 100 ever, because of the beauty of the "thermal heat" in our concrete jungle out here. Today will be 82. It's hard to enjoy the winter weather now - with the inversion the cooler air holds all the pollution down and the skies are a dingy beige most days. Bleah.

There's property aplenty in the northern country if you're happy with alligator juniper and scrub oak - but that's just too much openness for me. I want trees. You can't find affordable pined property at all, unless you want a teeny lot with restrictions.

You're right about the solar here. Lately I think we're getting 350 days of pure sunshine a year ... there is NO reason for this state not to be pumping out solar energy for everything and everybody. (An article in the paper yesterday said there's finally plans for a solar plant to go in in a few years.) With solar it would very easy to get off-grid if you didn't mind living in wide open country - the temps are milder up north, too.

I'm willing to trade hunkering down in the winter time months for those glorious few months of summer in a green place with blue skies and fresh air. Grew up in New Hampshire. Loved it and miss it greatly.

I'm ready to buy and build and am looking at Pagosa Springs, CO. Not too far family, still small, though stubbornly growing, and I can afford a few acres there. I'm going to walk some land there in April.

I was looking around western WA, too, but it just seems a little more remote than I need, or want - though the idea of more acreage for the price is attractive. If I thought I'd ever see family again I'd look in the south east - so beautiful and still affordable .... but I just don't know that I could be assimilated into that southern culture. ; )

It's going to hit 82 here today ... = )

[Timberwolf]

Do you ever get winter?

Our winters would killya! You do get used to it... helps if you're born here. I like snow, maybe not 5-6 months of it...

Haven't been to many of the nicer eastern seaboard states (NH come to mind, as does PA). I'm a tree person myself (log home.. duh!) always have been always will be. The desert is neat (Utah is my only experience though) but I can see it wearing thin on you... lack of trees and potentially people. I love the mountains, but don't like the constant rain and lack of sun (coastal) or the lack of good building sites (up hill both ways). That and it's mostly unafforable (thinking BC Canada or CO in your case). NH, MI or MN would probably be my first choices (though the Carolina's might tempt me with finer weather) as they are the closest to my climate, with maybe a gentler winter (temp wise) with perhaps more snow (not this year, almost breaking the record this year for Ottawa, which is something like 165" (13'!) our average is about half that. The only thing that saved us was a huge melt in January.. otherwise I wouldn't see the top of my house.

Land around here varies greatly price wise but is generally less than the rest of the country, even though we are the capital. Of course, like most places, the less convenient, the cheaper it is. I got a deal, but that's because I was lucky (private sale, stumbled across it, farmer was downsizing).

Did you say you were taking the course April 4th?

Jason

[Valerie]

We'll be at the April 4th class.

I'd have to admit we really don't .... get winter, that is. Not in Phoenix! We did get a few good hard freezes that killed a few of my plants.
The mountains get some snow though.

My husband, who would have loved all this stuff ... died two and a half years ago. I'm 46, with 5 kids: one daughter in college, another one (19) who will hang out with me for a while, the 17 year old son, then a daughter 12, and another boy, 6. My older children are capable and good kids, and I want them to know there isn't one way to live in America. (We've homeschooled, so they've grown up knowing you can buck the norm.) This will be a good experience for them. (I keep telling them this ...)

Tim had worked for the phone co. for 35 years, so we've got his pension, plus another ten years (if it holds out) of his social security. We had just moved into a house big enough for us all - and cancer hit hard and fast. With the person you pictured being with the rest of your life missing, you can feel homeless even with a house full of kids. So I've been thinking long and hard about where I want us to be. I appreciate the desert, but have never liked living here. I like small town living with a full four seasons (even if the 5th one is "mud".) I think the future of the American economy is scary, and I'd prefer the money Tim worked hard for not go towards interest payments ... the taxes that are inevitable will be bad enough, when this country's finally forced to deal with its debts.

So here I am. Looking into building my own house. My folks and brother think I'm nuts, but I'm pulling us out of the rat race they love so much, and am going for simple and sustainable in a land I can love.

It was hard to pick which one of the big kids I would bring to the class- but my son is more technical, and will grasp the mechanics of this stuff faster than I will, so I think he'll have some good input as we do this. If this goes as I am hoping, hoping, hoping it will, I'll have a picture of a "student house done by a mom and her teenagers" to send to this site someday.

So, we'll be seeing you in April!

Valerie

[Timberwolf]

I am ever so humbled. You are my feel good story of the week. I admire you for your persistance.
NEVER LET GO OF YOUR DREAM and NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU "YOU"RE CRAZY" or "YOU CAN'T DO IT".

YOU CAN!

Even if it seems hard, just keep at it. I know you will make it, and I know everyone here believes the same.

Need some inspiration? Go to the countryplans.com website and look at the owner built gallery. There are houses built by teenagers, and one built by a man with MS. He needs 2 canes to walk. He cut all th lumber himself. He had one helper to build his cabin. A blind man.

If they can do it you can do it!

Believe it!

Jason

[wwlivin]

Valerie,
Good luck in your search and in accomplishing your positive goals! Rick is correct the Wenatchee WA area is indeed beautiful, I use to love to hike in the mountains in that region for the eight years that I lived in Yakima WA.

I am now in Mississippi and own 25 acres on a lake and just getting ready to build my log cabin (30x30, 2 story). I love the spring, fall and winters here, hate the summers. While we don't get 100+degree heat here very often it is hot and humid much of the summer, and can be in the late spring and early fall. Lots of cheap land with timber in the southeast though. I currently have 85 logs cut and up off the ground, hope to put up the walls and roof this summer/fall.

Wayne
http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/aa19/wwlivin/?mediafilter=all

[Valerie]

Thanks for the encouragement.
I've been reading everything, looking at all the pictures, and I think we can do it ... but I'm thinking not without alot of input and support from this place. Seems like that abounds, though!

[RodneyG]

Annualized Geo-Solar is a neat idea, is very simple and I plan on trying it. If you have a metal roof put on using the cool roof method meaning the metal is screwed to slats creating an air gap. Hot air in the summer is flowing up to the ridge cap all day long at 100 degrees or more, roofs get HOT. A 6 inch plastic pipe runs from the ridge cap to 4 feet under your house where it squigles back and forth the length of your house and surfaces out of the ground at the other end. You connect a solar powered fan to one end, then whenever the sun is shining the hot air is pulled into the ground and creates a "heat bank" under your house. There is an explanation and diagram at www.greenershelter.org

[slasher]

I wonder what type of efficiency @ a 4 ft depth? It seems that 12 inches would work in most instances except EXTREME climes... The amount of heat in comparison to the cooling effect of the Earth at 4 ft (even down South here) seems more like a way to keep the roof cool than to help heat the interior of the house....

Did I miss something ???

[RodneyG]

The web site expains it better, but at only 12 inces you would creat an oven during the summer and no heat bank for the winter. The idea is to slowly heat up a massive amount of earth under your house.