Wind power [Archive] - Log Home Builders Association Forums

rreidnauer

02-04-2006, 07:24 PM

Well sure! Didn't I mention my 120 inch High Definition computer monitor and the coffee maker next to the keyboard?

But seriously though, the windmill will probably be in the ~500 watt range to a bank of batteries. I'm thinking of a 24 volt system to reduce amperage and lighten up the cables both from the windmill to the batteries and to the inverter. I just want to make sure I can run appliances.

I have read some more, that true sine wave inverters are a lot more innefficient overal and have a high idle (no loads applied to the inverter) amp draw just to power their own circuits. So I am rethinking, and maybe I'll go with a modified sinewave inverter for most things, and rework my current 1000 va UPS I have for the computer and run it like a full time inverter. (if it can handle continuous loads) It's only very lightly loaded as is now, only lighting the first LED of five on the power useage indicator.

Battery-less would be nice, but that's hardly reality, unless you get a (very expensive) "grid-tied" inverter. No batteries, but the regular electic grid acts a bit like a battery by sending your excess power to the grid (which reverses the electric meter) and later when you need power, it comes back in. The only problem is if the grid goes down, so do you if you don't have batteries. But I guess that's what my 4000 watt generator is for.

Anyhow, I'm getting waaaaaayyy ahead of myself. All I got is some sketches and some orders for materials. Starting small is a good idea. Let's see if I can make the mill first. :wink:

I appreciate the (or any) advice. It's worth no less than the price paid. :wink:

ponyboy

02-05-2006, 12:21 AM

Sweet! Are you going to go for the vertical or the traditional windmill?

rreidnauer

02-05-2006, 07:53 AM

I'm going to attempt a traditional style mill and build a 3 phase axial flux alternator. I'm not sold on the vertical styles being able to generate sufficient torque (and definitely not comparable to traditional) to get the wattage I'm targeting. Clearly, that unless you build the thing to be massive, they are unable to harness the same square footage of air compared to a traditional mill. Though I may still build a small scale one just out of curiosity, now that I have seen how they go together.

One nice thing is an axial flux alternator can be easily fitted to any rotating shaft. (including vertical mills) Maybe I'll get lucky enough to acquire property with a running stream, and convert it to a hydro-electric operation.

The_Truth

02-05-2006, 09:09 PM

There is a good book out there called "Logs, Wind, and Sun". I checked it out at my library but it can be purchased at Amazon.com, etc. It was a couple that had built their own home (non-Skip method) but has good information on wind and solar electricity. They use both for their cabin and have some good tips for setting it up.

dbtoo

02-06-2006, 07:33 AM

Of course, when it comes down to the last dance, I'll be willing to compromise.

I use a modified sine wave inverter, off grid. So far it's fried a bunch of sensitive electronics that work fine on grid power. The manufacturer states in its manual that some things will work fine, some things will not work at all, some things will work poorly, some things will burn up (like my Mom's air cleaner - "What's that funny smell? Ah, just the plastic melting, Mom, don't worry about it." so much for the cleaner air! ) and other things will burn out faster than usual because they have to work harder/longer. I plan to replace it this year with a full sine wave inverter.

So, pay the extra money and get a full sine wave inverter. Here's a forum for sun/wind discussions.
http://www.wind-sun.com/smf/index.php

ponyboy

02-16-2006, 03:35 PM

Here's a cool magazine that has a few DIY articles. This month has an article on how to build a windmill ( Rod :D ) using a motor from a treadmill. 8)

http://www.makezine.com/magazine/

Jeff

rreidnauer

02-16-2006, 04:25 PM

Ha!! I've seem to be growing a reputation that I'm "the guy that's building the windmill." :lol: Hasn't anyone else on here planned/built windmills?

From what I gathered, just about any permanent magnet motor can be made into a generator, but may not be all that efficient. Brushes and slip-rings are the biggest thing to avoid. (though several report many years of flawless service) Anyhow, I got some literature, the magnets, (which scare the %&#!$ out of me) and the hub assembly. I'll have the rotors tomorrow. Misc. hardware, motor winding wire, and plywood for molding forms will soon follow. (see how finances go after that vet bill :wink: )

I'm starting to learn that I still need to learn a lot. :lol: Many variables that I have yet to be answered. This would be a lot easier if I had someone to coach me along on this. I love the fact that constructing these things seems sort of "back woods" but when you get into it, you see the high degree of engineering and understanding of phyics required.

dbtoo

02-21-2006, 05:36 AM

I've been considering getting a wind generator. Our place is always windy. How windy is it you ask? It was so windy last week, that it lifted the 4 panel PV array off it's pole and dropped it ontop of the roof.
I am rethinking wind generation! I may go with a propane generator.

ponyboy

03-13-2006, 03:09 PM

Here's more on that DIY windmill. This site also has a lot of other cool DIY stuff.

http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/27BB2BF4004C102980EC001143E7E506/

rreidnauer

03-13-2006, 04:59 PM

Ha, well, since this thread has become active again, I may as well share some of the progress I've been making. So here's some pics of the alternator construction.

Stator layout with magnet placement visualization. You can see I've been playing with different coil shapes. I've changed my mind at least three times already, including once today!
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/coil_magnet_arrangement.JPG

Magnets glued onto rotors, and template for setting magnets. At this point, the rotors are VERY dangerous to handle. Each magnet by itself has 87 lbs. of pull, together it's 1044 lbs, and with the flux conductance of the rotor, it's even higher to a value I'm unable to determine, but it could be as high as double, and that's only one rotor!!!! Needless to say, if you got your fingers between the rotor and some heavy steel, or the other rotor, you can kiss them fingers goodbye. It would squeeze them clean off!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/magnet_template.JPG

And this is cutting the mold that will make up the stator drawn in the first picture. You can see the hub assembly laying in the background.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/routering_stator_mold.JPG

That's about where I'm at. More to come.

ponyboy

03-13-2006, 06:53 PM

:shock: Wow! that's lookin' pretty good!! :D

dbtoo

03-14-2006, 05:58 AM

Rod, are you a rocket scientist or something? That's too wild. Awesome!
How big is this thing going to be? You'll have to but up some lifting poles to get it off the ground, no?

rreidnauer

03-14-2006, 09:43 AM

Nope, I ain't no rocket scientist. :lol: Like the saying from the Otherpower website, "The cutting edge of low technology." Their site is of great value for building this thing.

All you're looking at is 13 inch front brake disks for a Mustang Cobra, with 2" x 1/2" Neodymium magnets attached. The hub assembly is just a trailer hub and spindle set from a trailer supply store. The mechanics of it all are quite easy. The mathmatic parts are a bit harder on the brain. There are so many formulas for figuring out this and that, and it seems there is no one place to get those formulas, since this is all pretty much "redneck engineering."

The planned prop diameter is 14 feet, though I'm still figuring out the math for making sure the prop is sized right for the generator. The whole thing is going to be quite heavy. (maybe 400 lbs excluding the tower) To get it up, I'll probably use a homebuilt "tilt-up" style tower, unless a deal comes along. 35-40 feet up is the target.

OK, back to head-scratching math. Later

dbtoo

03-15-2006, 09:58 AM

You could possibly save 50% on a wind turbine system....

http://www.bergey.com/Library/792pon.2005.pdf

And there should be a 30% federal tax credit on the other 50%. You'll have to look into the details.

rreidnauer

03-17-2006, 09:31 AM

I can't say for certain, but I think gov't rebates and such only apply to "grid-tied" systems. The reason I'm building this thing is because I will most likely be well off grid, and I doub't they care about those who have nothing to offer back.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

dbtoo

03-20-2006, 05:46 AM

I haven't interpreted what I have read to mean only grid tie, usually just 'main' home (not summer cabins and such.)

http://www.dsireusa.org/
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/incentive2.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F&State=Federal&currentpageid=1&ee=0&re=1
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=154657,00.html

rreidnauer

03-23-2006, 09:02 PM

Good links dbtoo!!!! That looks pretty promising.

OK, more photos of my continuing progress!

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/magnet_epoxy_form.JPG

This is how I contained the epoxy the magnets are cast into. I cut a band of aluminum flashing to the size of the inside and outside circumferences of the rotor surfaces, taped it together, and lined the surface towards the magnets with heavyweight packing tape. I added layers of tape and test fitted to the rotors until the forms fit tightly onto the rotors. I then mixed (expensive) West Systems epoxy with a slow hardener, and bought some empty caulk tubes, filled 'em up and cast the rotors, without slopping it all over the magnets.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/epoxied_magnets.JPG

And here is one of the rotors fresh out of the forms. The packing tape on the forms released from the epoxy far better than I could have ever hoped for. It left a beautiful shiney edge.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/hub_assembly_closeup.JPG

This is the modified trailer hub. One rotor is actually attached behind the flange. That's 1/2-20 stainless steel all-thread, which coincidentally, accepts lug nuts for attaching the rotors.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/assembled_magnet_rotors.JPG

And this is the assembled magnet rotors onto the hub assembly. I guess about 80 pounds right there. I had wound a single test coil to put in between the rotors to see what kind of power I can get, but I got them adjusted a little too close together, and the coil rubs on the magnet faces. It takes too long to make the spacing change, so I didn't adjust it tonight, but just for my own entertainment, a held the coil in between the rotors anyhow, and spun the rotors as best I could with the other hand, I figure maybe 60 RPM max, (once around per second) and I got 2 volts AC!!!! OK, don't sound like much, but it's only one of nine coils, and at a very slow speed. My target voltage on one coil is 3.4 volts @ 100 RPM. Looks like that should be quite obtainable. :D

Thats all for now. More to come!

dbtoo

03-24-2006, 05:35 AM

:shock: Wow! That's seriously impressive, Rod !!!

Just one question for now.... Where's the rest of the mustang?

ponyboy

03-24-2006, 07:42 PM

:D Rod, if it starts talking with a German accent and begins searching for Sara Conner... RUN AWAY!!! :shock:

Here's a nice little wind mill for only $500.

The AIR-X's charge controller periodically stops charging, reads the battery voltage, compares it to the voltage setting and if the battery is charged, it completely shuts off all current going to the battery

http://store.yahoo.com/affordablesolar/1008.html

rreidnauer

03-25-2006, 08:41 AM

That's all of the car I could afford dbtoo!!! :lol:

Don't worry ponyboy, the Terminator is nowhere in sight. :wink:

Ahhhh yes. The Air-X windmill. That's where this all started with me, and I nearly bought one. Just like kit log homes, the "prettiness" almost got me hooked on buying one, but Otherpower, just like LHBA has, saved me from making a very poor decision. (God bless the internet)

So for fun, let's see what the Air-X can do. They claim 400 watts at 28 MPH. Wow, that's one windy place you're going to have to live at to get that much power. So let's talk more realistic numbers, say 15 MPH. That's about 62 watts available. And at 10 MPH, only 19 watts. OK, still not bad if you're looking for a trickle charger, but I'd rather buy a solar panel at that point.

Also, The unit has no built in high-wind protection system. That's probably why on that webpage, they say you will need a "stop-switch." No doubt the instructions will say that you need to stop the windmill during storms and high winds. (ummm, kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?)

Yea, mine will cost more than a X-air setup, but dollars per watt, I got 'em beat by a landslide. Besides, I'll be making 400 watts at only 11 MPH, and 2400 by 20 MPH, and if I would let it, 6600 watts at their boasted 28 MPH. (I'll be setting the furling system for around 20 MPH though to prevent wire melt-down. That's 100 amps on my 24 volt system!)

ponyboy

03-25-2006, 01:20 PM

Plus you can't beat the "hands on" experience you get with building your own. And if it breaks down you know how to fix it yourself! :D

ponyboy

04-19-2006, 04:11 PM

Another vertical windmill.

http://www.turby.nl/

eparks

04-19-2006, 06:03 PM

Rod,

I just read through this whole thread and am extremely impressed with your progress. I have done quite a bit or research on wind generation and was thinking of doing exactly what you are doing. Unfortunately, life got in the way and I decided I need to finish a few projects before I start any more.

I was wondering what you were going to use for the brake system. I had read where one person strapped a leather belt over the shaft to slow it down but that didn't seem to be real robust. I know that the big vestas wind turbines have a brake system in them that only allow them to produce so much power so they don't overspin but I'm not sure how it works.

Also, are you going to buy a prop or build your own? Just wondering. I've seen some real simple sheetmetal props but thought that they may come apart if you get some vibration at higher speeds. I'm not sure how hard they are to balance.

I work with someone that has two vestas wind turbines. If you have any questions, maybe I could see what he thinks if you like. He has actually been entertaining the thought of building systems that are about 20 kw in size and selling them as Vestas has decided to get out of that size.

farmercolby

04-20-2006, 05:20 AM

For the brake system I would use a system like the windmills we use for pumping water for stock ponds. The tail fin on those windmills is spring loaded. When the wind blows too hard it starts fethering the tail fin and turns the windmill so it isn't taking the full force of the wind. To shut the windmill off it has a lever on one of the windmill legs that cocks the tail fin all the way to one side so the wind can't turn the windmill.

rreidnauer

04-20-2006, 07:00 PM

Thanks for the compliments

Farmercolby is on the right track. There is no brake. Rather, the axle of the prop is offset from the tower pivot. (takes math to figure out how much) The tail is mounted on an angled pivot that causes it to rise when it's folded. (furled) How it works is, as wind speed (and pressure) increases against the offset prop, it forces it to turn away from the wind, and forces the tail to fold and swing up. (I calculated wind pressures against the 14' prop in the 350 lbs range at higher windspeeds, so you get an idea of what kind of forces I got to deal with) When the wind begins to subside, the weight of the tail will make it unfold on it's angled hinge, and begin steering the prop back into alignment with the wind. The folding system is employed to control excessive amperage that can cook the charging coils.

Even at high winds, with the system furled, it will still be producing much power, as it will still have some angle to the wind and continue turning. Now, there is some electrical breaking, which is neccesary to control RPMs. Much of this occurs by charging the batteries, or applying power to "dump loads" like water heater elements or electric baseboard heat. There is one last way to control the windmill, and is usually considered an emergency action, and that is to physically short the connections to the windmill's generator. This will bring it to a quick stop in all but the strongest winds. I plan to build this into my system, because if you had a fuse blow, the windmill would be allowed to "free-wheel" unloaded, and would eventually rip off the prop blades. I'll be using an electrical contactor that will "close-to-short" should there be an overload, stopping the mill automatically.

I will be building my own three blade prop, from wood, perhaps cedar. I'll make a carving box that will allow me to router out the twist required with accurate repeatable results. That is done by laying a board for the bottom, and another board to one side, and a third board to the other side. But the third board will taper from one end to the other. Then a router will be fitted onto a board that can span across the two side boards, and can be worked back and forth, down the length of the carving box. The tapering board will cause the router to carve a twist into the wood. Now the tough part. The other side of the blade will need to be carved by hand, and require an "eye" to get the airfoil shape required. I'll probably pick up a cheap power planer, and belt sander to do that. Once one blade is made, I'll use it as the pattern to make the rest, by making (yea, always making) a large duplicator, so they all match nice. I might make a spare blade in case I need a pattern, should the blades ever get broken.

So, stay tuned, as I have finally got all my coils wound, and getting reading to wire them together probably tomorrow. Then it's onto getting some heavy tubular steel to weld up the head assembly. More pictures coming soon.

dbtoo

04-24-2006, 01:37 PM

http://www.thesolar.biz/Lakota%20Wind%20Turbines.htm

rreidnauer

05-12-2006, 05:51 PM

Construction of the wind turbine continues.....

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/nine_coils.JPG

Here, you see the nine coils of motor winding wire. Two parallel lengths of 14 gauge wire, wound 71 turns each per coil. Wire ends all over the place. Kinda intimidating at this point.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Coils_wired.JPG

But fear not. All too soon, all the connections are wired up. Connecting together four ends of 14 gauge wire between coils was easily accomplished with some copper ice maker line, crimped, silver soldered, and heat shrinked.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Stator_studs.JPG

Does anyone recognize what these are? If you're a plumber, you should. This was my plan for terminals that will carry power out of the generator. So far, I've not seen anyone on the Otherpower forums using this technique. Everyone there just has the wires exit out of the fiberglass casting, then drill bolt holes, and wrap the wire ends around the bolts. A crappy way to do it in my opinion. So I took 5/16" solid brass toilet bolts, and drilled two holes through them. I threaded on a solid brass nut, and inserted the wire ends into the drilled holes. Then I silver soldered the wires and nut to the bolts. I then drill holes in the wooden mold and push the bolts through, putting on nuts on the other side to secure them until the fiberglass is poured. The visible heads seen above will be completely buried in the fiberglass resin. What will be left is only a stud sticking out of the cast stator. A much more professional way to terminate the wires, yes? Six terminals were not required, but gave me the ability to configure several ways of extracting power from it, and only cost me one more pack of bolts.

So that's about all I got for now. Casting the stator is next. Fiberglass materials have been ordered, and I await their delivery. It's going to be a messy job, but neccessary. I just hopoe it works, because there's no going back once the pouring begins!!!

ponyboy

05-12-2006, 08:28 PM

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6052/dropmouth0jm.gif (http://imageshack.us) Looking good!

rreidnauer

05-23-2006, 07:33 PM

Next step: Casting the coils in resin. Gosh, I hope I do this right. About $200 on the line, and a lot of labor, if I screw this up.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Mold_Lid.JPG

This is the top lid to the mold you seen in earlier posts. I had to router out some material, as for some reason, the coils came up a little thick. While I was at it I removed even more material around the perimeter so the casting will be extra thick at mounting points. So, this left me with a domed lid that would trap air in the mold. Oh, what to do, what to do?

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Mold_Top.JPG

This was my solution. I drilled two holes at far opposite sides of the mold lid's cavity. With the mold tilted slightly, I planned to inject resin into the lower hole, and force air out the upper hole. I didn't completely fill the mold this way. I glassed and poured the bottom half as full as I could before closing the lid and injecting the final amounts of resin.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Mold_Poured.JPG

And here it is after pouring the last of the resin. The caulk tube worked great. In fact, I didn't even have to force it in. Gravity did it all. I vibrated the mold with a orbital sander to try and coax out all the air possible. I hope it is all out, but I won't know until tomorrow morning. I just hope the resin set's up. It still hadn't after about a 45 minutes after mixing, so I'm a bit worried. I know it's going to be cool tonight, which won't help it cure, so I took the whole thing, and set it on top of one of the air conditioning outdoor units for our computer rooms. They run 24/7/365 and throw off quite a bit of heat, so hopefully that will trigger the resin to cure.

Time shall tell, fingers and toes crossed.

eparks

05-23-2006, 09:03 PM

Looking great Rod!!!!!!

I hope the resin cures as you expect...... It should. Just takes time.

Very Cool... :lol:

rreidnauer

05-24-2006, 06:07 PM

Alright, I was able to finally uncross my fingers and toes. The fiberglass resin set up successfully. Here's a quick picture of it out of the mold and a quick sanding.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Stator_Complete.JPG

I did get a few air pockets in the lid area, (other side) but nothing that effects it's integrity. None the less, I filled them in with a bit more resin, and will sand it out tomorrow. I still have to drill mounting holes near the outer edge.

Next step, go scrounging for steel tubing, angle, and plate stock, to make up the assembly to hold all this stuff together. This is basically what I need to assemble:

http://www.otherpower.com/images/mondec19/metalwork1.JPG

Once I weld that up, I'll finally be able to test how much power it will put out.

ponyboy

06-03-2006, 02:54 PM

Heres another DIY homebrew windmill. ( Not as nice as rreidnauer's ) :wink:
I don't think this guy is done with this web page yet.

http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/B9ECDD4243EF1029AC23001143E7E506/

dvb

07-21-2006, 01:29 PM

Rod Reidnauer,

How is the progress on your wind Generator? Looks like superior craftsmanship so far.

Dean

rreidnauer

07-21-2006, 02:29 PM

I've been having a hard time finding the tubular steel I need. Buying it new is just ridiculously over-priced, and finding what I need in a scrap yard is proving more difficult than expected. (either because they simply don't have what I need, or due to strange hours of operation) Perhaps this Monday (I got the day off) I'll stop at another scrap yard I know of.

In the mean time, I've been working on the prop blade's design and layout. Using several references, I think I've designed the most efficient blades I can achieve. Next will be to make the jigs for carving the blades. One which will carve the correct twist into a wood blank, the other jig will be a duplicator, to make all blades exactly the same.

Blade specs: (for anyone who cares)

No. of blades: 3
Diameter: 14 ft.
Root Chord: 22 in. (blade width at hub)
Tip Chord: 3 in.
NACA profile: 4416 tapering through 4412, modified to XXXX-53
TSR: 8:1 (tip speed ratio. speed at blade tip in relation to the wind speed. In other words, in a 20 MPH wind, the tip speed would be 160 MPH without load. Since there will be a load, the speed will be slightly slower)

That should have put someone to sleep. :lol: Gosh, I hope I find that steel soon. I want to see what this thing can do.

dvb

07-22-2006, 07:35 AM

Rod,
It appears that you have an aviation background. Or you are an extremely good at researching.

Dean

rreidnauer

07-22-2006, 12:16 PM

I guess you'd be correct on both counts. My website, www.titantornado.com would confirm your first suspicion.

dvb

07-22-2006, 01:12 PM

Cool site, has it flown yet?

rreidnauer

07-22-2006, 05:27 PM

Actually, no. Rather, it's for sale. (for property money)

KeithMN

09-28-2006, 11:22 AM

OK, I'll be upfront and say that I didn't read through this entire thread. There is a lot of jargon that I couldn't pick up on, so I thought I would just jump in and ask my questions.

1. For those of you with windpower, how is it working out for you?

2. Forgive my ignorance, but what are the pros and cons? Is this really feasible? To be able to not have to rely on the electric company would be great.

dbtoo

09-28-2006, 11:37 AM

IMHO - you cannot rely solely on wind power. It would have to be a combination of solar, wind, and generatorl. You will not have a constant wind at the speed necessary to drive the turbine. You will not have constant sunshine. Generator - for those cold winter nights when the batteries run low. Off-Grid is not for everybody.

KeithMN

09-28-2006, 02:36 PM

dbtoo,

Thanks for your reply. As much as I would enjoy being off-grid, I think I would be better off relying on the electric company. I've been doing some research on it and it's a little more work than I'm looking to live with. I'm not afraid of it, and I'm excited about building my own log home, but it won't be my life. Still, a guy's gotta check out all the options in the beginning of the process to narrow things down, huh?

I've got some interesting ideas for my log home and I'm anxious to see what they think of them.

PapaJoe

10-01-2006, 06:10 AM

Greetings From Chicago! I am a new member that became certified this past Labor Day weekend at Skips home in Monroe, WA. I retired from AT&T and for the past several years have been working on renewable energy projects with Stanby Power Systems Consultants here in the Chicago area. Seems there is a lot of interest in the "Savonious Rotor" or "Vertical Wind Turbine" on the forum. I have installed these turbines and worked with Professor Bill Becker (Aerotecture Engineer) on several successful projects. He has a patented design that has proved itself to be both effecient and AFFORDABLE. Here is his website aerotecture.com feel free to call him directly for further information and prices, be sure to tell him Papa Joe from Standby Power referred you, he's a great guy and will be more than happy to share his knpwledge with you. My website is standbypowersys.com . I usually log into the forum on weekends so be patient if I seem to be slow in responding to replies. My profile is incomplete because I am new but hopefully I will have full access soon and be able to communicate more effeciently with other forum members. I have many websites and actual pictures of me installing Wind Turbines, Solar Panels, and Geothermal Mass heating and air conditioning systems to share but I'll wait for full access to post that stuff. Ride Free, Take Risks, and Enjoy Life, -Papa Joe

dbtoo

10-03-2006, 06:24 AM

PapaJoe - do you have any contacts for the solar roof tiles? Are they as efficient as an array? Are they as easy to steal? Is there any source you know of, that a homeowner can purchase them reasonably? Thanks.

PapaJoe

10-03-2006, 03:31 PM

The tiles are less effecient than the arrays, and the pitch of your roof pretty much dictates their angle, unlike arrays which can be adjusted to any angle. As far as theft, get some weapons, practice your proficiency with them, and don't hesitate to use them. I have a sign on my property that reads, "Steal Hear - Die Hear". Now a tip on how to get them cheap, you know those solar panels you see roadside, the ones that power traffic lights in consrtruction areas ... well my friend you wouldn't believe how many people run into those things ... next time you see them, pull over and right down the name of the contractor that put them up ... give him a call and ask him if you can have the ones he's THROWING AWAY ... Oh Yea ... most of them can be repaired and are still usable!!! Thanks for the response, good luck, and remember, -Ride Free, Take Risks, and Enjoy Life! Your friend in Chicago, -Papa Joe

dbtoo

10-03-2006, 03:35 PM

Now a tip on how to get them cheap, you know those solar panels you see roadside, the ones that power traffic lights in consrtruction areas ... Oh, the ones people steal to use at home? How about batteries? Can I swipe, ah, I mean, obtain them too?

What's the typical rating for the roadside panels? (I'll stop down the road and see who the contractor is, they use them for roadside flood control around here.)

Thanks papajoe

rreidnauer

10-03-2006, 06:41 PM

The ones I see around here in Pennsylvania, look to be at least 100w on the smallest ones, and almost certainly 200+ on some of the bigger ones. The thing to remember is, while driving by, they are probably a lot bigger than they look. You ever stand next to a traffic light? They look pretty small hanging up there, but them things are huge!!!

PapaJoe

10-04-2006, 05:14 AM

Clearly I DO NOT recommend stealing anything, that's unhealthy, especially on MY propetrty! As for used batteries, it is true that Telcos, and Power Utilitys periodically replace their battery strings, but their is a good reason they are getting rid of them ... typically I do quarterly inspections on stationary batteries with means I test the overall voltage, the individual cell voltage, the specific gravity of the acid, the float voltage, perform load tests, check the AC ripple voltage, the charging system, and most important, the internal resistance of each cell. When the batteries reach their end-of-life they are replaced, in other words I wouldn't use discarded stationay batteries unless they are tested to see what remaining life they may have. Keep in mind that typically batteries do not die natural deaths, most are murdered! And for heavens sake ... do not steal ANYTHING!!!! -Ride Free, Take Risks, and Enjoy Life, -Papa Joe

PapaJoe

10-06-2006, 10:01 AM

Here are just a few shots from my various installations. Much more to share but don't want to overwhelm ... I'm still new to this forum ... http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l216/joecardone/?start=all -Ride Free, -Papa Joe

David C.

11-02-2006, 07:37 PM

Hey Rod,

I was just wondering if you were able to get the parts you needed to finish your windmill. I got interested in it last spring when you were doing the electrical part. I was studying electricity in physics class at the same time. I hope you can get it done.

Or, you could just get one of these. :lol: :D

http://www.billingsgazette.com/rednews/2005/10/07/build//state/20-windfarm_large.inc
These are in the Judith Gap Wind Farm near Judith Gap Montana.

My dad has a really good picture of all of them on his computer, I will post it if he will send it to me.

Thanks,
David

rreidnauer

11-03-2006, 09:49 AM

Nah, I haven't yet. (though, I have picked out what metal I need from www.metalsdepot.com ) Right now, I'm on a push to buy some more solar panels. The guy who I originally bought eight Sharp NT-175U1 from, for $4/watt, still has a few left for the same price, so I'm trying to gather the money for four more. (will give me a total of 2.1 KW)

In the mean time, I've been working on perfecting the blade design to be the most efficient I can get it. The tricky part has been near the root of the blade. (yea, I know this is the point of least energy, but what else do I got to do while the project is in limbo?)

Don't worry, I'll get back on track soon.

thepizzaguy

11-25-2006, 12:08 AM

If you get a professionally installed alternative energy source like solar, you can get buku incentives, to cut that cost down to roughly %50. Who wouldn't want to save money, and get a solid system?

If you look at alternative energy as you would a log home, you are better off spending more for a good high quality inverter, rather than something that's unproven.

I built a small wind meter to measure wind speed using a small DC motor from an electric appliance and a piece of fencing. It required a 4 foot prop to get the little motor to turn. Building you own is a way to go, but I really think buying a professionally built and designed wind generator is the right way. If you make your own propeller and it's not balanced, you're going to have issues. But it would be really cool to watch the wind tear it apart.....

For under $7000.00 you can get a 220 volt, 3000 watts Whisper 175 that will provide 500kwh per month, or about 1/3 of my electric needs here at my mom's house.

For around $2500.00 you can get a 48volt 1000 watts Whisper H80 that will give you 6kwh per day, or just enough to run your A/C on a cool day.

For around 2000.00 you can get a 48volt 400watts Whisper H40 that will provide 3.4kwh per day, or just enough to run your computer.

If you are looking for an all inclusive system with 700 amp hours of battery power and a modified sinewave inverter and tower, look to spend around $6400.00 for the H80 and $14000.00 for the Whisper 175.

Everything list will also allow you to add PV panels, and will qualify for reabates, tax breaks and other incentives, that will knock down the price by 30-50 percent.

You'll have to check around on the internet for more info.

Personally I prefer solar and for around $12000.00 you can get 550kwh per month grid tied system after rebates and tax incentives. The reason for my approval is that a wind tower may damage the value of you home or property, and solar can be installed onto the roof.

The only other thing I can add to this is that a good quality professionally installed solar array will increase the value of your home or property by the cost of the system from day one. I can't say you'll be getting a free system, but the numbers add up to just about a break even proposition.

A neighbor across the street added a solar array to her roof and she said that it paid for itself the day she turned it on.

Have a great day!

William

rreidnauer

11-25-2006, 08:12 AM

If you get a professionally installed alternative energy source like solar, you can get buku incentives, to cut that cost down to roughly %50. Who wouldn't want to save money, and get a solid system?

Yea, I've been wondering if systems had to be professionally installed or not. Nowhere does it actually say they do, but it could be implied. None-the-less, I'm maintaining all receipts and bills-of-sale. I often wondered how large a system you'd have to go with to offset the labor costs to savings, where you'd come out ahead.

If you make your own propeller and it's not balanced, you're going to have issues. But it would be really cool to watch the wind tear it apart.....

You're severely underestimating my abilities. :lol:

For under $7000.00 you can get a 220 volt, 3000 watts Whisper 175 that will provide 500kwh per month, or about 1/3 of my electric needs here at my mom's house.

For around $2500.00 you can get a 48volt 1000 watts Whisper H80 that will give you 6kwh per day, or just enough to run your A/C on a cool day.

For around 2000.00 you can get a 48volt 400watts Whisper H40 that will provide 3.4kwh per day, or just enough to run your computer.

You need to change you wording from "will provide/give" to "is capable of up to" Other than some hydro or geothermal sources, RE is a variable. The wind doesn't blow everyday. And actually, right now, I'm using well below 3.4kwh/day. A quick breakdown includes lighting at 0.5kwh/day, fridge at 0.7kwh/day, and laptop computer with all associated equipment (including a TV tuner) at 1kwh/day, totalling 2.2kwh/day. Numbers were gathered using a Kill-a-Watt meter. Heating cooking, hotwater are all gas. Actually, I could cut down my energy even more. I leave the computer and equipment on 24/7 when in reality, it's only used maybe a 1/3 of a day, and I could use smaller CFLs. Once, I move and build my own place, I expect my usage will go up some, and rightfully so considering the size increase. I know my low usage isn't the norm, but it does show what one can be capable of.

The reason for my approval is that a wind tower may damage the value of you home or property, and solar can be installed onto the roof.

A combination wind/PV system is almost mandatory, (here in the NE anyhow) with many cloudy, but windy, winter days. I have no intention of installing the PV on the roof. It's going on a tracker to make the best use of their abilities. I hate roof mounted equipment. Roofing materials are not meant to be screwed into. I can't believe this has become an accepted practice. Perhaps if there was some sort of one piece mount with a flashing built into it, that could be installed prior to roofing, I'd consider it, but to screw & seal is too hacky for me. I haven't decided on how I'll mount the solar hot water collectors yet.

A neighbor across the street added a solar array to her roof and she said that it paid for itself the day she turned it on.

She's lying. . . . . I know what you mean though. Everyone likes the thought of seeing that electric bill lower, zero, or even get paid back, but, with current Kwh prices, it would be a long, long time before you'd break even (if ever) on what you spent in the first place. Though, if rates do start to take off as oil prices have, then there really is the possiblity of a system paying for itself. The talk here is, (here, being my local neighborhood) wholesale electric contracts with the generation companies will expire in 2007, and costs are expected to triple.

thepizzaguy

11-25-2006, 11:17 PM

I would assume, and I don't know for sure, but it seems to me the only way to profit is in home equity. You spend 10K for a solar or wind system, and you get it back in equity, plus any savings in the electric bill. If you build a system that covers the electricity you use and have a bit left over to go into the grid, it should definately increase the value of you home. Plus who know if green tags and REC's are going to be the wave of the future if things continue moving down hill environmentally.

I was first into wind, but lightning damage and so called property damage, bearing and gears burning out, makes me wonder. It's much cheaper than solar panels, and I've seen very large turbines, for sale at prices comparable to a medium to large solar arrays. I would like to have no mortgage, gas bills, water bills, and electric bills. Then I can sit back a fish to my heart's content.

I am hoping to reduce or completely remove my "carbon footprint", and I estimate with 4kwh's, It could be done in 40 years. That includes packaging, food, trash, and of course gasoline. I guess if I get close to reaching my goal, I'll plant a few 100 trees to top it off. There's alot more that goes into a footprint than gas and oil. There are other resources that I have used. Then again removing a footprint could be a myth, considering the current war.

thepizzaguy

11-25-2006, 11:20 PM

I think the key hereis to reduce the amount of energy you use with CFL's lights, maybe LED lights, and the like. This will decrease the amount of kw's you'll need to produce to cover your lifestyle.

I can go on forever.....

I also read that when you are planning to build a new home, you need to sort out your stuff, furniture, and stuff, so you can save money on the house you build. Why add on another 3 sq. feet to the kitchen just to hold the electric can opener. Bad example, but I make my point.

ponyboy

11-28-2006, 03:38 PM

Cool looking Wind Turbine 8)

http://www.loopwing.co.jp/en/loopwing.html

linuxboy

11-28-2006, 06:20 PM

Yea, I've been wondering if systems had to be professionally installed or not. Nowhere does it actually say they do, but it could be implied. None-the-less, I'm maintaining all receipts and bills-of-sale. I often wondered how large a system you'd have to go with to offset the labor costs to savings, where you'd come out ahead.

Photovoltaic systems do not need to be "professionally installed". You are the professional :P. Photovoltaic systems must provide electricity for the residence, and must meet applicable fire and electrical code requirement. The qualification for certified energy efficient installations apply to things like windows, heat pumps, heaters, etc.

see:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-06-26.pdf
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:h6enr.txt.pdf

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

However, solar water heaters must be certified by the Solar Rating and Certification Corporation (SRCC).

The credit is 30% of expenses, up to 2 K.

ponyboy

01-02-2007, 01:54 PM

Here's another "breakthrough" of a new ultra efficient wind turbine design. :wink:

http://www.stormbladeturbine.com/

rreidnauer

01-02-2007, 04:37 PM

Ugh. I'm sorry ponyboy, but I gotta comment on this (I sound like such a downer, but I feel I need to point out when these companies put out these outlandish claims)

Stormblade Turbine can convert up to 70% of wind power into electricity, double the current average.

Grrrrrrrrrrr! Blatent, flatout, unquestionable lie. Search "Betz Limit" or "Betz Law" and you will find that in theory, the absolute best mechanical efficiency a perfect rotor can get is 59.3%. (in reality, today's best turbines don't exceed 50%) This doesn't even figure for electrical resistance losses.

About the only thing I see that it has going for it is high-wind survivability. Smaller size is certainly nothing to brag about because, as I've pointed out in the past, what determines power is swept area and wind velocity. Of course, when you're bragging you can somehow double the power output, I guess you can say that a smaller turbine is feasible.

ponyboy

01-02-2007, 05:19 PM

Oops! :D He he he, I should have used the :roll: smiley as I meant the "breakthrough" to be more sarcastic. :lol:

adubar

01-11-2007, 02:40 PM

dbtoo

01-11-2007, 03:03 PM

I wish they'd come up with a solar power breakthrough like the solar breakthrough I saw in the back of a DC comic book when I was a kid. It was a solar clothes dryer for $50.

the genius of it was that it was so simple to put together. It had only a six parts: two hooks, five clothes pins and a cotton line.

-A

I have an antique one I can sell you for $250.
Hey - I'll even through in a hand wash board with that, of course the jug band might get upset with me.

adubar

01-11-2007, 07:45 PM

thanks for the offer. But, I recently got one of the knock-offs from overseas. Aside from the clothespins falling apart, the line isn't too shabby from the moth infestation.

-A

ponyboy

01-16-2007, 07:54 PM

Here"s a cheap DIY wind turbine. New super-ultra uber-efficient state of the art wind turbine will convert 100% of the wind into 110% of your electrical needs.
( Heh he he. Just kidding Rod :wink: )

All jokes aside this would be something fun to experiment with if you just want to play around and not spend too much cash.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1604098739706419266

ponyboy

01-22-2007, 07:27 PM

Wood Propeller Fabrication

http://www.instructables.com/id/EIB85L4M58EWZMJ34H?ALLSTEPS

This same guy also made a propeller duplicator. (check out the video)

http://www.aerodyndesign.com/PROP_DUP/PROP_DUP.htm

Says he's going to make his next prop out of foam and a hot wire to make the template blade and then the duplicator for the wood.

rreidnauer

01-23-2007, 03:56 AM

That duplicator is very similar to what I intend on building to make up my blades, though a bit less complicated. The only thing is, my table is probably going to have to be 9 feet long, to be able to fit the 7 foot blanks for each blade.

Oh, what I'd do for a nice big CNC machine. :lol:

ponyboy

01-24-2007, 06:37 PM

But wait there's more! Here is yet another DIY windmill.

http://www.mdpub.com/Wind_Turbine/index.html

Drh0liday

02-02-2007, 02:21 PM

:D rreidnauer, i've noticed that you have 9 coils and 12 magnets, do you think that this will provide something close to a sin wave pulse on the generator, or can this only be done with overlapping the coils?

:arrow: http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/alt102.html

this website was very helpfull for me as alternators are extremely similar to generators,
:?:
also, i was thinking if we're charging lead acid automotive batteries, what's wrong with basically hooking up a set of cieling fan blades with an automotive alternator and weatherproofing the setup? just wondering

rreidnauer

02-02-2007, 05:05 PM

Good observation Drh0liday. You are quite right about the arrangement. What the 9/12 setup gives me is a true sine wave, 3 phase alternator. Overlapping coils are not required in an axial flux design I'm using, nor are steel cores. (features common to radial alternators and motors) The use of three phases and a coreless stator, makes for a very smooth running, cog free alternator that starts up really easy. Also, other than the two bearings, there are no moving parts on the alternator. (OK, the magnet rotors are going around, but there isn't any parts interactions to cause wear, other than the bearings themselves)

You're right, alternators and generators are quite similar, difference being AC or DC. But the Permanent Magnet Alternator (PMA, like I've built) is a lot different. A PMA can turn much slower than a typical alternator or generator to make power. Mine will produce 14 volts at only 50 RPM. Alternators/generators can't even come remotely close to that. Auto alternators usually have a minimum speed of 2400 RPM to make power. Why? Well, because typical alternators/generators don't contain magnets, and therefore rely on "self-excitement" to generate their magnetic fields and generate power. It does have it's advantages, like being able to maintain a constant charging current irregardless to operating speed, but the price is they need to be spun at very high speeds which are not typically conducive to wind or hydro operations, without some sort of ratio gain transmission. (which wastes energy through the transfer) With a PMA, the magnetic field is always there, at the same strength, regardless of speed. The disadvantage is, voltage rises equally with speed. So if I were to hit 400 RPM, I'd have 112 volts coming out. The surprisingly good news is, once you've rectified the 3 phase AC power to DC, it can be applied directly to a properly sized battery bank, the the battery voltage itself will self regulate the incoming voltage. What you end up with is a trading of overvoltage for amperage. The wind turbine essentially becomes a amperage pump. The only time you will loose voltage regulation is when the batteries are full, at which time volts will rise rapidly, and if left unchecked, will boil the batteries to death.

About your ceiling fan blade generator, scrap the idea of the auto alternator. (in fact, give up on auto alternators all together) You'll never get the RPM's required to run it. Instead, since you mention ceiling fan blades, get the rest of the ceilng fan itself. It's got everthing there that you already need. Good bearings, a wound stator, blade mounts, what more could you want? The motor, once it's converted to contain magnets on it's rotor, makes for a nice little PMA capable of a few hundred watts. Changing out the blades to some cut from PVC pipe (http://www.reuk.co.uk/Photos-of-PVC-Wind-Turbine-Blades.htm) would further increase performance.

Drh0liday

02-03-2007, 10:09 AM

what variables can be "adjusted" in a generator, such as coil position, adding coils, adding another magnet plate etc. ( i noticed on the otherpower website their generator has two magnet plates),

http://www.otherpower.com/wisc/assembly.JPG

also what books did you get (unsure if you posted this earlier this post is getting huge) i'm thinking of building my own much like yours, and do the books have any formula's such as x length of coil wire = y voltage and amperage?

rreidnauer

02-03-2007, 06:19 PM

For the remainder of this post, I'll assume by generator, you are referring to axial flux PMA's.

Well, you can build the alternator as either a single phase, or multi phase. In single phase, you can have a magnet/coil ratio of 1 magnet to 1 coil, but always in even numbers. Great care must be taken as to which direction the coils are wound. (alternating clockwise and counter-clockwise) Three phase is always a combination of 4 magnets to 3 coils to work correctly, and coil winding orientation is always wound in the same direction. More phases are possible, and require different combinations, but really don't see a need to exceed three phases. Like I mentioned before, three phase has much less cogging than a single phase generator, and that is why it is typically used. They are a bit tricky to set up proper arrangements when you aren't familure with them, but once you figure out what is going on, they become easy to understand.

Yes, magnet rotor arrangements can be varied too. The lowest power producer is a single magnet rotor. The reason being, there is nothing guiding the magnet flux of the magnets through the coils to make electricity, so you settle for what interaction you can get from the coil's close proximity to the magnets. Next, there is single magnet rotor with an opposing ferrous rotor. There is a huge leap in performance when a blank steel rotor is fitted on the other side of the coils. Magnetic flux is attracted to the rotor, and forces much more flux through the coils, making much more energy. Keep in mind that this blank plate must rotate in conjunction with e magnet rotor, or else it will generate magnetic braking, as well as some heat. Finally, there is dual magnet rotors (like mine) which produce the maximum amount of energy possible, because opposite poles are aligned to each other, forcing a very strong magnet field of very straight flux lines from one rotor to the other. The steel rotors behind the magnets increase their strength by "steering" flux on the back side's of the magnets to the neighboring magnets. The steel plates increase performance by about an extra 50%. Of course, all this magnet attraction has it's risks. Currently, I have a one inch gap space set on my rotors for the coil stator to fit into. I estimate I have around 2,000 pounds of attraction between the rotors. I'm sure if I were to ever let them come completely together, I'd never be able to get the apart. They are not something to be taken likely, and when not assembled, can be incredibly dangerous. Even when assembled, there are risks, like getting a wrench too close. It scares the heck out of you when that happens. Also, neodymium magnets can be explosive if allowed to collide with others or steel, sending shrapnel at incredibly high velocities. Again, they are not to be taken lightly.

Getting "specs" is really difficult on an unproven design. It's much easier to copy someone else's model. A really good place to start is Hugh Piggott's How to build a wind turbine. There are plans for several different sizes and configurations in that book. If you choose to venture to self design, then his companion book, Windpower Workshop has quite a bit of technical information as well. The Otherpower forums, www.fieldlines.com can be of an incredible source of data, but the users there are not nearly a polite as here on LHBA, when redundant questions are asked. It's strongly recommended that one use the Google search on their website before asking a question. I'm always up for a challenge, and decided to build my own. There are so many variables that need to be consided when doing so, some of which I'm still not entirely sure I got right. I think I'll save those variables for another posting, should one want to know.

ponyboy

02-19-2007, 08:40 PM

Are you sitting down Rod? :D

Cans 30% More Efficient At Collecting Wind Energy Than Turbines.....:wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC8Qe--wB1c

How it works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_effect

rreidnauer

02-19-2007, 09:08 PM

You just know that I say to myself, "Oh no" when I see your name pop up in this topic. :lol:

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea if their claims are accurate, as I wouldn't even be able to begin to figure out where to base calculations from. If it really can exceed typical wind turbines of today by 30%, you should be seeing their faces all over the place real soon, because they pulled off a real hum dinger!!! :D

Longhare

03-14-2007, 11:08 PM

Very cool looking wind turbine:

WIND TURBINE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPQkhDE8eY)

Aerotecture Web Site (http://aerotecture.com/)

Louanne

ponyboy

03-17-2007, 03:20 AM

Skystream 3.7

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream/product-info/

I wonder why their video of this thing in action has no sound..... :wink:

ponyboy

03-19-2007, 02:14 AM

Micro-Wind Turbines Suitable for City Dwellers.

I don't think the plastic gears would last very long.:?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-03-18-voa10.cfm

rreidnauer

03-19-2007, 09:59 AM

It took me a while, but I see the outer rim is the gear. That adds mechanical losses and is an unnecessary step. I'd surmise that if you were to allow them to freewheel individually, they will self regulate, because the one producing the most power (highest RPM) at any given time, would electrically unload the slower ones, and allow them to speed up. The way it is now, the ones with the lowest airflow drag down the others. It's got to make a racket too.

Freewheel them, and arrange them in a tight honeycomb pattern, and this could be an interesting concept.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess I should add that you would have to have small individual alternators on each fan, versus one single alternator at the end of the gear chain. That may or may not be a good thing.

rreidnauer

04-02-2007, 07:00 PM

Skystream 3.7

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream/product-info/

I wonder why their video of this thing in action has no sound..... :wink:

I recall seeing this vender at the Pennsylvania Farm Show in January. (no representatives present the entire day) Now, I've had the opportunity to witness one in action (or the lack thereof, you decide)

First, how I got to see one. Pennsylvania paid a grant of $193,000 to Southwest Windpower for the purchase and installation of 15 twelve foot diameter wind turbines throughout the state, in highly visible locations to promote RE production. Southwest Windpower sells the Skystream turbines, which brag of 1.8 Kw output @ 20 MPH, (very optimistic, but achievable) and 400 kWh per month with 12 MPH average winds. A town near me received one of these turbines, and was commissioned on Nov. 30th. So I went to see it on a fairly breezy day.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/skystream.jpg
When I arrived there, I found it mounted on the standard 34 foot tall tower mentioned on the website, as well as the grid-tie inverter and a KWH meter to record it's production, mounted on site. The first thing that caught me as odd, was the fact that it was turning very little, if at all. A strange thing, considering it was blowing around 5 to 10, with gusts easily exceeding 15. Mostly, it was just yawing in the wind. So, I headed over to look at the meter and was quite shocked to see it's recorded output.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/KWHmeter.jpg
During the last four months (notably, the most windy months of the year for these parts) it's managed to crank out an incredible 9.5 kWh. . . . . . . . . . . . ehhhhhh, . . . . . . . . ahem. . . . . . . . Gee, that's like $0.90 worth of electric. Now granted, it's placed in a less than ideal location, and the tower is rather short, but certainly, it should be able to do better than that, right?

I silently believed this was just another one of those "make it look cool for the consumer" products with no real potential, and my visit has pretty well confirmed that belief. (see ponyboy. I do try to keep my trap shut sometimes :wink: ) I posted cameraphone video here: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/?action=view&current=windturbine.flv but Photobucket's encoding makes it pretty poor quality, but at least you can hear the wind blowing.

I don't know about others, but if I just spent 12-13K on a wind turbine, and only got a bucks worth of electric out of it in the past third of a year, I'd be pretty darn _____ off. That 193K could have been spent far better on solar panels. At $5/watt, you could have bought 38,600 watts worth, and divided amongst 15 locations, that would be 2560 watts, which, in 3.7 hours (just one sunny afternoon) could have produced as much power as that turbine has in four months time. But I guess solar panels aren't "cool" looking enough to bolster our dear Governor Rendell's RE campaign. Anyone who's got some knowledge of alternative energy production can see it was a totally erroneous choice, but fortunately most folks don't know any better, and I'm sure he knows that too.

ponyboy

04-02-2007, 07:20 PM

But if you buy one of those turbines they throw in a free bridge and some "wet lands property" in Florida... :shock:

Wow! 9.4k in four months, that's pretty bad. Sounds like a good story for the local news.

rreidnauer

04-02-2007, 08:55 PM

Wow! 9.4k in four months, that's pretty bad. Sounds like a good story for the local news.

Funny you say that, as the thought had crossed my mind. But at the same time, I really don't want to put any more hinderance on Pennsylvania pushing forward with renewable energy production than they have already done to themselves. Sadly, such a poor choice as this could cause setbacks, both from the people and internally, basically due to ignorance as to why it's not working as well as it should. Somehow, they (the gov't) need to get a better handle on how money should be spent for such things. (power per dollar) I'd love to know who made the decision to go with Southwest Windpower, how much they researched it, and what knowledge background they posses for renewable energy resources, because so far, it looks like $3 a year is probably an opimistic forcast of energy production. Multiplied by 15 units, $45/year isn't a very good return on spending my tax dollars.

I also noted that I haven't found a webpage on http://www.state.pa.us which lists the turbines' current energy production or even where they are all located. Based on my findings at this one location, I can understand why you'd want to brush it under the carpet.

ponyboy

05-08-2007, 11:42 PM

Pssssst... Don't tell Rod.. :wink:

http://www.mariah-power.com/

Here's the video! :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnhpeJAS9gY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eecogeek%2Eorg%2Fcontent%2F view%2F569%2F

ponyboy

05-15-2007, 09:20 PM

And another.

article
http://www.metaefficient.com/archives/renewable-power/new-rooftop-wind-turbine-tested-the-helyx.html#more

web site
http://oregonwind.com/

freddy

05-16-2007, 08:46 AM

Thanks for the find on the double helix video, Ponyboy. I have no idea if this is good science, but I hope it is, just like I hope all alternative energy technology is. I just wish our gov't would stop encouraging farmers to turn food into energy and focus instead on developing the endless supply of natural energy sources.

freddy

dvb

05-21-2007, 07:52 AM

"I just wish our gov't would stop encouraging farmers to turn food into energy and focus instead on developing the endless supply of natural energy sources."

This is off topic but I just wanted to say that e-85 is definately not the answer, however it is a bridge to better energy resources. Does any body realize how much our government pays farmers to not grow crops like corn? It is called the crop reserve program. Millions of acres are not in production because we can produce more than we can use or even sell. I vote for using some of this land to reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

ponyboy

06-19-2007, 03:11 PM

Here's a little wind power for your cell phone.

http://www.gotwind.org/Orange_Wind_Generator.htm

ponyboy

06-27-2007, 04:59 PM

Video of a $700 wind turbine being considered for Australian roof tops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ5kX5Yw4eY

LarryNut

07-06-2007, 12:51 PM

Rod,

Didn't know if you'd seen this yet and thought you might find it a good read.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative-Energy/2007-06-01/Improved-Wind-Power.aspx

Larry

ponyboy

08-03-2007, 02:24 AM

:-)

http://www.neo-aerodynamic.com/default.html

ponyboy

08-07-2007, 04:01 AM

O'Connor Hush Turbine

http://www.hushenergy.com.au/hume_turbine_images.php

And this one also.

Wind Wing

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/aug/05/developers-trying-harness-earths-energy-new-way/

ponyboy

10-12-2007, 02:34 AM

Klapton

10-12-2007, 11:13 AM

Wow! it's been awhile. :-)
Windbelt, Cheap Generator Alternative
This is a small generator for lighting up LEDs or a radio.
It uses a belt that vibrates in the wind instead of a wind turbine.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4224763.html?series=37
This design is brilliant!

I read some of the comments on that page, and some people bring up some interesting points:

1) What about varying wind speeds?
2) Could multiple bands be set up in an array?
3) Wind direction?
4) Scalability? Could it be made to produce more energy per unit?

Direction could be handled easily enough just by putting a weather vane type fin on top with it mounted on a rotating base.

For multiples, I imagine a rack or grid of these thing set up on a frame of some kind. The frame would then be an a swivelling base to change with the wind direction.

The windspeed thing is trickier. An electronic control that would adjust the tension based on windspeed would probably be the most precise, but then how much energy would it take to operate it? Would it reduce overall efficiency so much to not be worth it? But if a MECHANICAL means of adjusting the tension could be devised... I imagine a regular windmill-type of wheel that would apply tension to a spring of some kind. The spring in turn would apply the proper amount of tensions to the bands? The problems here would be matching the "curve" of the spring's tension to properly match the wind speed. And then the tension would also have to be matched to the number of bands (net sum of tension needed). It would be quite an engineering puzzle to be sure. At best it would probably have to be optimized for a specific range of wind speeds.

I really have no idea how to increase the amount of energy output per unit. Perhaps something with the magnets? (I'm into territory I really have no clue about at this point.) If the energy output per unit was sufficient, then electronically controlling the tension (which seems easier and more precise to me than a mechanical control) would be reasonable.

Then the question is -- how much energy output "per square foot" could you produce with a "rack" of these things? It may just be that it would be so low that you would need an acre of them to power a home, etc. Oh well. In that case, I just wrote a bunch of stuff to amuse myself while I was supposed to be working... muwahahaha

rreidnauer

10-13-2007, 09:31 AM

ponyboy

10-13-2007, 03:15 PM

Clever find Ponyboy,

Yea, it could be upscaled quite easy. It can be homebuilt easily too.

BUT . . . . . . . (ya just knew it was coming, didn't you?) Scaled up, this thing would be horrendously loud.

:-)

Dang! Almost!... And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky kids! Rod! :-)
Yeah, I figured it would be noisy. Have you ever put a blade of grass between your thumbs and blew
into it to make a LOUD screeching noise?

ponyboy

11-08-2007, 07:16 PM

Looks like somebody took some big corrugated culvert pipe... :-)

http://www.helixwind.com/en/

ponyboy

02-09-2008, 04:07 PM

http://www.flodesignwindturbine.org/index.php

rreidnauer

02-23-2008, 10:26 AM

Yikes!!!! So, you ever wonder what would happen if the control systems in one of those huge commercial wind turbines were to ever fail? Well, wonder no more! Check out what happened yesterday. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdd_1203701257

Lonewolf

02-23-2008, 10:33 AM

Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was some great footage
Marcus Ward

Timberwolf

02-23-2008, 10:40 AM

Yikes,

I've been up close and personal with a farm of those things on the North West tip of PEI. Granted the wind was realtively calm.

After seeing that footage, I don't want to get within 5 km of one if it's really blowin' out.

kyle

02-23-2008, 04:31 PM

Wow! They are popping up all over the place here in SW PA. Always a big fight when they plan a development of them.

StressMan79

02-23-2008, 06:19 PM

rreidnauer

02-23-2008, 06:42 PM

Rod,

you were so good at posting pictures for the first year or so... what is up with the PMA? Do you have props? Steel for a tower? Test Data? You could run your PMA with a motor and give a calibration (volt's per RPM)! Don't leave us hangin!

Thanks for info on your continuing saga.
Ha, yea, sorry about that. That project got back-burnered when I came across that good deal on solar panels. Then the good deal came along on solar hot water collectors. So that's been a bit over $10,000 in CASH sales that I put out, and being opportunistic whenever log related tools come along, money gets spent on them first. (which BTW, I'm going to be picking up another cant hook and logging chain tomorrow)

Then I decided to go from 24v system to 48v, so I'll have to wind all new coils and build a new stator. (I've thought about using the PMA as is on a Lister engine running on WVO, but I'm not sure the stator could survive at 600 RPM) And finally, I'm loosing my "workshop" at work since we're moving. Blade making is going to take up some room I just don't have right now. Looking at things from a realistic standpoint, I doubt I'll get to finishing up a working wind turbine before the home gets built.

GENE13

03-14-2008, 07:03 PM

wind speed x windmill size = enough energy to keep batteries charged

How much wind speed would a small windmill need, to keep enough batteries charged to run a small size home.
Let us assume the wind speed is always constant, and then try to keep the mill size as small as possible.
Remember, we're talking about a constant wind speed, ok.
Let me know what you come up with if you have the time.

Tx's
Gene

rreidnauer

03-15-2008, 06:15 AM

. . . this would be an easy question. I'll have to make some pretty large assumptions to provide an answer.

Hopefully, the hypothetical home would be an energy conscious one, and let's say it uses 8 KWh daily. (I personally can do much better than that, but . . .) And if the wind really did blow continuously at a constant velocity, it's easy to figure out what you need, as it's output would simply be matched to the home's consumption, plus efficiency losses. So let's figure out the wattage output required.

8 KWh a day equates to 333.3 watts continuously. So let's compare windmill sizes and wind speeds.

6 foot diameter @ 10 MPH = 57 watts
6 foot diameter @ 15 MPH = 187 watts
6 foot diameter @ 20 MPH = 438 watts

8 foot diameter @ 10 MPH = 100 watts
8 foot diameter @ 15 MPH = 332 watts
8 foot diameter @ 20 MPH = 778 watts

10 foot diameter @ 10 MPH = 157 watts
10 foot diameter @ 15 MPH = 519 watts
10 foot diameter @ 20 MPH = 1216 watts

The 8 foot at 15 MPH, looks like a pretty good match, except it doesn't account for energy losses like:
- Wire resistance losses
- Battery "leakage" losses
- Inverter efficiency losses

So, you should probably take the above values, and subtract 15% to get a more real world value. So, that makes either the 10' @ 15 MPH, or the 6' @ 20 MPH the correct, minimum requirement choices.

For your entertainment, here is every combination that will equate to the 392 watts (losses included) required to achieve that 8 KWh/day.
2 foot @ 40 MPH
3 foot @ 28 MPH
4 foot @ 25 MPH
5 foot @ 21 MPH
6 foot @ 19 MPH
7 foot @ 17 MPH
8 foot @ 16 MPH
9 foot @ 14 MPH
10 foot @ 13.5 MPH
11 foot @ 13 MPH
12 foot @ 12 MPH
13 foot @ 11.5 MPH
14 foot @ 11 MPH
15 foot @ 10.5 MPH
16 foot @ 10 MPH
17 foot @ 9.5 MPH
18 foot @ 9 MPH
19 foot @ 8.8 MPH
20 foot @ 8.5 MPH

GENE13

03-15-2008, 08:45 AM

Thanks Rod !!!!!

That is exactly what I needed to know. I really appreciate your help to the max! :-)

Sincerely,
Gene

rreidnauer

01-09-2010, 05:25 PM

OK, it's been a long time since any posts were made in this thread, but I thought I'd add to my earlier post about Skystream. While out at the PA Farm show today, I filmed this quick clip. (and edited for children) :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHNR44iraMg

StressMan79

01-10-2010, 04:48 PM

nice, rod. Is there much wind where you are at?

-Peter

fossten

01-10-2010, 05:20 PM

I've read articles where the noise from turbines was so loud that it bothered the neighbors to the extent that the owner had to take down his windmill.

ramblinman502

01-10-2010, 05:22 PM

take a look at this clip...the part im referring to starts at 1:44...i wonder if you can train that thing to peel logs.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2010/01/10/youtube.triggers.hollywood.deal.cnn

rreidnauer

01-10-2010, 09:50 PM

nice, rod. Is there much wind where you are at?

-Peter
Most of Pennsylvania is rated as poor to marginal for wind, with a few exceptions near Lake Erie and the Western side of the Appalachians below Altoona, which is rated "fair" and very limited locations along the very ridges of the Appalachians having a "good" rating. Of course, no homes are on those ridges to take advantage of those good winds. The property I'm buying falls in the "marginal" zone, which means averages of 12.5 to 14.3 MPH at 50 meters above the surface. I should be able to make some use of that.

Hey RamblinMan, I like that wind powered robot. Creepy cool how it's doing it's thing all by itself without the help of electric, electronics, and such. I imagine it can only walk in one direction (that being down-wind) but cool never-the-less.

ramblinman502

01-11-2010, 05:14 AM

Rod....yeah, maybe it cant pell logs...but im sure it could mow grass!!

davemcd

01-29-2010, 03:46 PM

Group,

When a manufacturer advertises that their wind turbine produces...lets say 300 w of power, is it per hour, day, month...? Same question for the solar panels.

Thanks,

David

donjuedo

01-29-2010, 04:49 PM

Watts is already energy per time, so 300 watts per hour is like 45 miles per hour per hour -- i.e., it doesn't really make sense.

Watts is the rate of energy production (or consumption). My 60 watt light bulb consumes energy at the rate of 60 joules per second (watts), and the longer I burn it, the more total energy it consumes.

Does that help?

Peter

rreidnauer

01-29-2010, 06:08 PM

Well, it's not exactly that way, at least from a practical standpoint.

If a windmill is rated at 300 watts as you mention, that is the value it can produce in an instance. (think of it like the windmill could light three 100w bulbs if connected to it)

The measurement of wattage is used because it is a universal value of consumption or production, irregardless of volts or amps. This is why we are charged for our electric by the watt-hour. A watt-hour is simply a measurement of volume of energy consumed over a period of time.

Let's go back to your windmill. Let's say your windmill is producing 300 watts continuously for one hour. That would be expressed as 300 watt-hours of power produced. If it ran for two hours at the steady rate of 300 watts, it would be expressed that the windmill had produced 600 watt-hours in that time period.

If you're still with me, let's create a more real world scenario. Let's say the windmill produced 300 watts for 10 minutes, but then the wind slowed down for the next 20 minutes to producing at just 200 watts, then the wind slows down more to producing just 50 watts for 10 minutes, but picks back up to a steady 150 watts for 20 minutes. These can then be added up to give you your rate of production.

300 x 0.167 hrs = 50.1 watt-hours plus,
200 x 0.333 hrs = 66.6 watt-hours plus,
50 x 0.167 hrs = 8.4 watt-hours plus,
150 x 0.333 hrs = 50.0 watt-hours for a total of
175.1 watt-hours

If I haven't complete confused you, I'd like to talk more about the watt rating of a windmill. ALWAYS consider the wind speed at which the windmill receives the wattage rating. A windmill that can produce 300 watts but requires 40 mph wind to do it is not going to be of much use if your average winds are 15 mph. Wattage rises exponentially with wind speed, so a windmill with a wattage rating at 40 mph is going to drop off wattage quickly with just a slight decrease in wind speed. (for each doubling of wind speed, wattage increases eightfold)

If it's still cloudy, please don't hesitate to ask more questions.

donjuedo

01-29-2010, 06:31 PM

Not how it is, eh?

The Hotel Fire
An engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist are staying for the night in a hotel. Fortunately for this joke, a small fire breaks out in each room.

The physicist awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations, and on the back of the hotel's wine list does some quick calculations. Grabbing the fire extinguisher, he puts out the fire with one, short, well placed burst, and then crawls back into bed and goes back to sleep.

The engineer awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations, and on the back of the hotel's room service list (pizza menu) does some quick calculations. Grabbing the fire extinguisher (and adding a factor of safety of 5), he puts out the fire by hosing down the entire room several times over, and then crawls into his soggy bed and goes back to sleep.

The mathematician awakes, sees the fire, makes some careful observations, and on a blackboard installed in the room, does some quick calculations. Jubliant, he exclaims "A solution exists!", and crawls into his dry bed and goes back to sleep.

:-D

Peter

Yuhjn

01-29-2010, 07:12 PM

Not how it is, eh?

The Hotel Fire
An engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist are staying for the night in a hotel.

Good joke, I like it!

This isn't a joke, but along the same lines:

What is the difference between an engineer and a scientist?

A scientist LIKES surprises.

donjuedo

01-30-2010, 05:40 AM

What is the difference between an engineer and a scientist?

A scientist LIKES surprises.

LOL! I could see that ...

Rod is right about all those things regarding wind power, but the serious drop in output for a modest drop in wind speed is the one that would bother me. I am all for wind power, where's there's enough wind. But everywhere I've lived (MO, SE TX, AR, NC, SC, and VA), the wind is just not sufficient to be worthwhile, to me.

rckclmbr428

01-30-2010, 08:04 AM

if Scientest like suprises, the would LOVE my 7month old, she makes me suprises 3-4 times a day!

rreidnauer

01-30-2010, 08:21 AM

. . . . . . . . but the serious drop in output for a modest drop in wind speed is the one that would bother me. I am all for wind power, where's there's enough wind. But everywhere I've lived (MO, SE TX, AR, NC, SC, and VA), the wind is just not sufficient to be worthwhile, to me.
Yup, that is usually the case. The only option is to increase the collection area (i.e. rotor size) hence why commercial wind turbines are so huge. Pretty much any small home use wind turbine is going to be of little good for producing reasonable power unless you lived in a VERY windy location. That also includes those rooftop vertical axis turbines which brag they are so much better in low wind areas.

davemcd

01-30-2010, 02:59 PM

Brilliant explanation Rod...you to DonJ

Rod wrote-

"If a windmill is rated at 300 watts as you mention, that is the value it can produce in an instance. (think of it like the windmill could light three 100w bulbs if connected to it)"

This enabled me to stay with the rest of your scenario (after reading the rest of your post 3 to 4 more times).

I am looking at building Otherpowers 10' model at some point, after alot more research. Still trying to decide on a 12, 24 or 48 volt system. Rod are you going to resume building your turbine?

Thanks again,

David

fossten

01-30-2010, 03:31 PM

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/01/30/minnesota-wind-turbines-wont-work-in-cold-weather/

rreidnauer

01-30-2010, 06:28 PM

Yea, I'll continue with my project again, now that I know I won't have a hydro option on the property. (I had considered using the generator head for a Pelton turbine application) So, I'll have to make a new stator for the 48 volt system I intend on using now. At least I have the winding jig and casting mold. I just got to figure out when I'll have time to work on it.

Fossten, that's interesting about the MN wind turbines. I can't imagine there isn't a transmission fluid available that doesn't coagulate in cold temperatures. I can't help but think the story is written by someone with a anti-turbine agenda.

Yuhjn

01-30-2010, 07:24 PM

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/01/30/minnesota-wind-turbines-wont-work-in-cold-weather/

I would strongly advise against using sites like hotair.com to get scientific and engineering information. That site is nothing more than political propaganda.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with their political agenda, it would be unwise to base your home's electrical system on political rhetoric.

fossten

01-30-2010, 08:33 PM

Yuhjn, you are poisoning the well, and clearly you didn't read the article. Ad hominem attacks, really...

I thought it was an interesting article about a current event that relates to this topic, not an article with scientific and engineering information or political propaganda.

WTH...

Yuhjn

01-30-2010, 09:17 PM

Yuhjn, you are poisoning the well, and clearly you didn't read the article.

Of course I read the article, all 4 paragraphs. I didn't watch the little video of the talking head though...

I've never heard a political word come out of Rod's mouth but even he told you that article is biased.

fossten, have you ever read hotair.com outside of this 1 article? If so, how can you say you didn't think it was an article with political propaganda? Every article on that site is political propaganda.

If, on the other hand, you stumbled on that article with a lucky google search without knowing it's source, well then, sorry if my response seemed harsh. I'm pretty sensitive about such things, ESPECIALLY when it concerns the public's knowledge about how to sustain itself.

The idea that "You NEED our big coal-fired power plants to survive" is pervasive in this country, thanks mainly to the mainstream media. It's also completely false, just like the fact that wind turbines don't work in cold weather, so we should all just let them "drill baby drill".

So I suppose what I'm saying is, whether you knew it or not, what you posted was just more of the horrible lie we're force fed about our dependence on the government. I take that subject very seriously.

Sorry if my response seemed harsh.

fossten

01-30-2010, 09:32 PM

Sorry if my response seemed harsh.
I seriously doubt that. I've seen other political posts by you in the past, and I've also seen a post where you stormed off in a huff and promised never to come back, all over a political discussion.

The very fact that you resorted to an ad hominem attack indicates that you're not someone who discusses politics in good faith.

If you actually read all four paragraphs, then you deliberately misrepresented the article, as it doesn't advocate for dependence on the government. In fact, since our current government is pushing 'alternative' energy and trying to crush oil, coal, and natural gas, the article was blatantly taking the opposite tack.

Regardless, I've learned from this experience. I'll be sure to email you whenever I find an article, and get approval in advance, so I don't get excoriated and called a 'propagandist' in public.

staff

02-05-2010, 01:10 PM

This thread has been unlocked.

Please stay on topic.? Please avoid both political arguing and personal criticisms.

rocklock

02-05-2010, 01:11 PM

Much of the US was with out electric power before the 1930 and rural electrification. In the mid west you could still get 32 volt system washer and toasters... There was a company call Wind Charger - I believe. The three blades of the fan were counter weighted and had a variable pitch. So the faster they went the less bite it took of the air. I think at about 35 M/R they would do something so they would not injure them selves.
OK fast forward to Hawaii in the 1980's. Our electric company bought the biggest wind turbine in the world, installed it in one of the windiest places in the world and it did not even last two years. According to some the turbine had an over-speed event or there was corrosion on the Douglas fir - composite blade that was about 100 feet long.... So, I believe that folks in Minnesota can't figure out how to use antifreeze.
Anyway, before rural electrification living off the grid was how many lived. In fact, I believe that most of the folks on this planet do not have indoor electric power.
About turbine power, when the speed doubles, the wattage goes up by a factor of eight. So running these sucker fast is very necessary.

Tom Featherstone

02-06-2010, 08:51 AM

Anybody see this? Though I'd share.

Tom
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

andrew mason

04-25-2010, 09:34 PM

hey rreidnauer, do you have any more info on winding coils? im interested in learning more about building a wind mill...
also, it appears that the stator is placed between the 2 rotors... is this correct?

rreidnauer

04-26-2010, 04:23 PM

Ohhhh, where to begin . . . . Such a short question requires a very long answer, and very complicated that this instruction may do little good. What I learned came from no single source. I recommend you stick with a previous design unless you are exceptionally intuitive to this stuff. Hugh Piggott's books are a great resource to copy from. But should you dare to blaze a trail, read on.
Alright, first thing before you can even think about winding the coils is, you need to have your rotors picked out. Once you do that, you can start to figure out the size and shape of the coils. The "legs" of the coil which radiate out from the center of rotation need to be the size of the magnets on the rotors. Making the legs shorter will induce less electrical current, as a magnet passing parallel to the coils generates no current. Making the legs longer increases overall coil length, thereby increasing electrical resistance which in turn converts to heat and lost energy. Best way to describe it is, you should just be able to fit the magnet through the hole in the coil. You also need to decide on a coil thickness. 3/4" is a good compromise, but anything from 1/2" to 1" will work. Any smaller, and you run out of room for the windings, any bigger, and you start to separate the magnets too much, and magnetic flux drops off exponentially. The best way to figure out the coil shapes are to draw it out as you've seen in my pics in earlier postings. With your rotor size determined, draw an arc of the magnet's reach closest and furthest from center. That's the distance your coils' legs need to be. You then have the challenge of drawing nine equally spaced, radiating lines from center. This represents the space allowed for the nine coils. Then referring back to the magnets, you should mark on either side of those radiating lines, half the diameter (or width if not using round magnets) of the magnet. This will be the leg width. With this information, you should now be able to draw you coils. The "perfect" stator will have a magnet's diameter/width cover one leg each of two adjacent coils AND the hole in a coil should be the same width as the diameter/width of a magnet. Note the picture below, and you'll see I came very close to perfect, as you can see I have both legs of #2 and #3 coils fully covered, while the magnet nearly fits in the hole of #1 coils.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/coil_magnet_arrangement.JPG
OK, so that's determining coil size. Next up is calculating windings, but I'm gonna take a typing break.

andrew mason

04-26-2010, 05:23 PM

hey, im looking into making a generator, but i am not 100% on how to wind the coils... do you have any info on that?

rreidnauer

04-27-2010, 03:49 AM

andrew mason

04-27-2010, 09:21 PM

yea. thats kinda what i was looking for, but you mentioned paralell wires, ore something like that.

wht do you do with the ends, dose one end just sit idle at the inside of the coil? i thought it fed back to the studs.
now, for the more complex question...how do i calcuate the number of windings, wire gauge, type of wire ect ect... or at least what site do i go to, to find out?
these magnets look like they would make an awsome generator.
<a href="http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_15&products_id=792">http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_15&products_id=792</a>

andrew mason

06-04-2010, 09:06 PM

bump..... any help?

StressMan79

06-04-2010, 11:39 PM

. . . . . . . . . . oh. so you only want to know how to physically wind the coil, nevermind any of the details which would determine coil dimensions, wire gauge, number of turns, type of wire, etc. So the short answer you're looking for is simply to make a wood spool, like this.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1014/6INPARTS.JPG

[quote=andrewmason=
yea. thats kinda what i was looking for, but you mentioned paralell wires, ore something like that.

wht do you do with the ends, dose one end just sit idle at the inside of the coil? i thought it fed back to the studs.
now, for the more complex question...how do i calcuate the number of windings, wire gauge, type of wire ect ect... or at least what site do i go to, to find out?
these magnets look like they would make an awsome generator.
<a href="http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_15&products_id=792" style="color: #027ac6; text-decoration: none;">http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_15&products_id=792</a>
[\quote]sorry, but it looks like you (possibly inadvertently) were rude to Rod. I guess we'll all just have to wait for his "how to make linear flux alternators" book now...

Jo D

06-05-2010, 12:19 AM

I have been trying to fallow the making of your magnetic power generator. How is it coming along? I am interested in seeing completion and put into practice. Please continue this thread.
JO D

Captn

06-05-2010, 03:42 AM

I don't know what it is, but I've GOT to have one!

Please .... tell us the secret of making linear flux alternators Rod!

rreidnauer

06-05-2010, 09:24 AM

OK, I have simmered down :-) so I'll continue with the tutorial.
Alright, so now, you should know what size coils you can have, you can make a coil winder. The way I did it was to make cardboard template from my drawn coil layout. The winder is made of a 3 piece wood sandwich. The center piece is the shape of your coil hole. The outer pieces are larger than your wound coil, but should be marked where the coil shouldn't get any bigger, so you don't wind too much and make the coil too large. (I'll take a picture of mine when I'm back at work on Monday) There are also two cutout's in the winder that allow you to tape the coil legs once wound while still in the winder, so they don't spring apart when you go to remove them. Some people just have their wire start in the tape notch, but I prefer a separate hole. This allows for the transition between coil layers to happen at the outside of the coil, and keeps the legs perfectly parallel and dense. Here's a rough sketch of what it should look like:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/coil_winder.jpg
Now, you need to get into the really difficult mathematical portion of the build. This math will help determine your number of windings and wire size. So many things come together at this point. I'll try to work through them one at a time. First, you need to decide on several factors. What voltage will you be using? What maximum wattage from the windmill do you want? What size windmill do you wish to build? (which also effects windmill speed)
(Ugh, my head is spinning just trying to remember all the steps required. Bear with me)
OK, first. Go to this site: http://warlock.com.au/tools/bladecalc.htm Select imperial units if working here in the States, leave number of blades as 3, TSR as 7. Change blade efficiency to 0.35. Select a reasonable windspeed for where you'd like to reach maximum output. (I prefer 20 MPH, but you may like 15) Play with the blade radius numbers and hit calculate, and note the wattage. The wattage calculation shown is what is obtainable from the rotor, NOT necessarily what the generator will put out. Try different blade radius-es until you get your chosen wattage you'd like to produce. Now change the windspeed to 8. This is a good "cut in" speed, the speed at which a windmill's voltage rises to meet the voltage of your battery bank and begin charging. Much slower, and you risk stalling the rotor blades under a charging load. The RPM is what we are interested in. With this RPM, we can begin to calculate the number of winding turns per coil. OK, headache time. Knowing you battery bank voltage, you will use this calculation:
Target DC voltage + 1.4v rectifier loss + line loss x 0.7 AC to DC gain / 1.73 star gain / number coils in one phase = AC volts per coil. (LOL, I know what you're thinking)
Let's break it down. Let's say our Target battery bank voltage will be 24v. Add to that 1.4 volts. (that is the voltage that will be lost to the rectifier which converts AC to DC) Also add whatever your expected voltage drop will be between your windmill and batteries. Here's a calculator: http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html So for example let's say 24v system, 1000 watt generator, that's 41 amps (watts divided by volts) and lets say it's a 50 foot run of #8 cable. That's 3.1 volts line loss added to the above calculation. So we are up to 28.5 VDC. Now we get some benefits, converting AC to DC actually increases voltage, so we multiply our 28.5 by 0.7 for 19.95 VAC, and we divide by 1.73 for phase interaction within the generator, for a value of 11.53 and divide again by the number of coils in a phase, which in a three-phase, nine-coil generator is three, so that gives us 3.84 AC volts per coil. This is the required voltage of a single coil at the RPM generated at our windspeed cut in point of 8 MPH. (I told you it was going to be a headache!!)
At this point, you should really have your magnet rotors built, because you'll need to get data with a test coil, since magnet's flux strength will differ between shapes and sizes. You'll need a few things for the test. A test coil. (I simply used some inexpensive 20 ga "doorbell" wire) A tachometer (I used a cheap laser version I got off ebay) An analog (not digital) voltmeter, and something to rotate your rotor up to "cut in" RPM. (I used a battery drill and made a simple adapter to fit over the threaded rods) My first coil, I just wound like 50 turns and ran a test.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/test_coil_setup.JPG
From that test, I turned the rotor at cut in speed, and read the voltage coming off the coil. I took the voltage value, divided by the number of turns to get volts per turn. Now, knowing that our hypothetical target voltage per coil above was 3.84, you divide that by the volts per turn and wala, you have the required number of turns per coil.
Next, determining coil wire size and deciding between single or parallel conductors, but time for another typing break.

rreidnauer

06-05-2010, 08:14 PM

Alright, back to it.
So now you know how many turns you require, and you know the dimensions of your coils. Now you need to figure out how to pack the maximum amount of wire into your coils that the number of turns and dimensions allow. The reason is, you want to get the lowest resistance possible, because with higher resistance, not only are you loosing potential charging energy, but that resistance gets converted to heat, and yes, it's possible to burn up your generator. You'd think just going with the biggest gauge wire you can fit in the number of turns required would be best, but it's not, because the round cross-section of wire allows for a lot of wasted space between wires. The smaller the wire, the less wasted space. So if you can find a wire gauge with half the cross-section area and use two of them in parallel, you can get more copper in and less wasted space. (even 3 or 4 parallel strands are a possibility) So, with multiple conductors making up more copper and less wasted space for the same amount of turns, that can only mean you have less resistance in your coil. The down side is, they are more difficult to wind and keep in a neat, tight, parallel configuration. Referring back to my earlier sketch, I say your start lead(s) begin at the hole, you'd wind counter-clockwise. This is because as you complete one turn, the wire(s) move over to start the second turn. This action will force parallel strands to not lay together during this transition, and you end up with a wider coil in this spot. You can probably see in this pic that the outer portion of the coil is wider than the rest.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/Coil_closeup.JPG
Ideally, you'd want your coil winder just wide enough to fit "X" number of conductors per layer, plus one half conductor. This is because as you start the next layer, the wires will lay in between wires of the previous layer, filling the maximum amount of space. With the secondary layer of wires in between wires of the previous layer, you save about 7% in height, compared if they were stacked directly on top of one another. Another sketch to clarify.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/wire_lay.jpg
If your winder isn't quite right, you can sandwich in a bit of cardboard to get a width that makes it work out. Also, if winding multiple conductors, I found that while winding and reaching the end of one layer, the best way to get maximum fill is to put a half twist in the pair, so whichever conductor was the lead conductor in the first layer, will also be the lead conductor of the next layer. See if this animation helps visualize the concept.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/5348/wirelay.gif
So, what size conductors should you use? Well, that takes some figuring. The best place to start is finding out what the diameter of different gauge wires are, and figuring out how many conductors you can get in width and depth of your coil legs, and see if the total adds up to the number of turns you require. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge has a chart of wire diameters for various wire gauges. Keep in mind that epoxy coated magnet wire is going to be a little bigger than the bare wire figures given, so add approximately 0.002"
Next post, putting it all together.

rreidnauer

06-07-2010, 01:29 PM

Here are a few pictures of my winder. The long screw would get clamped in a vice or B&D Workmate bench. The removable end-plate allows you to remove the coil after winding and taping.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/winder1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/winder2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/winder3.jpg

StressMan79

06-07-2010, 05:01 PM

1 your "battery bank voltage" is nominal. my lead acid battery in my car charges @ 14.4 V, so 2 of them would be 28.8 V.
Aside from that, the charge/discharge voltage difference for Ni-Fe batteries are very large, I believe 1.71 V/cell for charge, and have a nominal voltage of 1.2 V. How do you deal with this very high disparity.
I like Ni-Fe, cuz I can get used cells super cheap, they are pretty easy to refurbish, and the high charging voltage allows you to simply hook up the cells to your solar array, without a charge controller (10 x 1.71 = 17.1V, so I won't overcharge them).
topping them off with a generator will be difficult, though, as most chargers operate at ~14.4V, which won't even touch the requirements of the bank. Also, I am a bit scared of burning out my 12V electronics @ 17-18V. I may use only 9 cells (I have a line on pallets of 80 AH cells), which would lower the charge voltage to 15.39V and would give a smaller nominal voltage of 10.8V. Anyway, I am thinking to make one of these specifically to run off a diesel genset to charge my batteries. Any thoughts?
-peter

rreidnauer

06-07-2010, 07:12 PM

Alright, first off, 14.4 volts is not a nominal voltage for a lead-acid "12 volt" battery. An at-rest fully charged 12v battery's voltage is 12.70v, and when discharged to 70% capacity, it's voltage is 12.36v (again, at-rest) OK, so what's with the 14.4 stuff then, right? Well, that is a case of overvoltage being delivered to the battery to drive the amperage into it. A battery is very similar to a water tower. With a water tower, you are going to need more PSI to pump water into the tower, than the tower is already pushing back with. And, the higher your pump pressure, the faster the water will go in. A battery is the same way, except its "electrical pressure" (voltage) instead of water pressure. Realistically, a car's regulator just working to maintain a constant 14.4 volts is actually quite hard on a battery (hence one reason car batteries usually don't last long) but it is the simplest solution in the automotive world. (hurry and get it charged up so it's ready for next use)
You're jumping ahead of me a little here, but a permanent magnet, axial flux generator's voltage increases linearly with RPMs. So if you reach a "cut-in" voltage of say 12.5 at 100 RPM, you then know that the generator will reach 25 volts at 200 RPM. (open circuit) Now, when the generator is directly connected to the battery, a phenomenon occurs, that the battery bank itself will regulate the voltage. (at least up until the battery reaches capacity, then voltage will rise quickly, heat up, and boil off electrolyte if left unchecked) So what happens, is the overvoltage being produced by the generator gets converted into amperage, and you see that case of higher voltage pressure, faster charging pattern. (I'll get into the math of how to calculate it in upcoming posts) This kind of answer's you second question. You really don't have to account to much for a voltage difference. If the bank voltage is a little higher (say near full charge) vs a low battery, the windmill will just start charging at a slightly higher RPM.
I'm not real well versed on the Nickle-Iron "Edison" batteries, but I do know they handle over-discharged states without damage. I can see your worries of sending too much voltage to your appliances while the windmill would be charging, driving your 12v Ni-Fe bank up to 17v (if that's what they really charge at) Sure, you can use 9 cells and simply account for the voltage difference when designing your cut-in speed voltage. Heck, if you have it wrong, it just means your cut-in will occur at a slightly higher or lower windspeed. (not a real big deal unless you get too slow a windspeed cut-in) So if you planned your windmill for 9 cells, but didn't like the voltage (say your 120v inverter drops out under load) and you added a 10th cell, your cut-in would occur at approx 1/10th more than the 9 cell cut-in speed, so say the original planned 15.4v at 8 MPH, it would now be 17.1v at 8.9 MPH. (15.4 / 8 * 8.9 = 17.1)
The thing with wind and hydro is, you don't have a way to throttle back the incoming power like you do in a car with induction magnetic field control regulators. And you can't just disconnect the battery from the generator either, as it will unload the generator, and without that electrical resistance the generator will run away and self destruct. You have only one option, and that is a dump-load controller which, when the battery is full and voltage begins to rise, the dump-load controller will have a voltage setpoint, where it will close a switch that is connected to a 12 volt load (heating elements?) of at least as much amperage that your windmill is capable of putting out. The controller is a little more complicated than that, but it's roughly how it functions.
I'm not sure about your diesel powered charging system for the Ni-Fe batteries. I have no idea how they'd respond to an automotive alternator. You'd have to play around with it and make sure it doesn't overcharge and boil your electrolyte. (shouldn't if 9 cells is 15.4v, but I don't know)

StressMan79

06-07-2010, 09:34 PM

I have almost no wind at my land. Someday, I may build a 50m tower at the top of the mountain and get a bit of what wind there is, but the mountain is out of range of my current location. Anyway, I don't want to have an "automotive alternator" but a linear flux alternator (which I can tune myself), I will have to determine how to regulate the rpms.
Thanks again.
-Peter

andrew mason

06-12-2010, 06:01 PM

<a href="http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=792">http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=792</a>
it sounds logical that the more magnets i can put on my rotor, the more efeicent it will be (this is obvously up to a certain point, a magnet 1/2" wide wouldnt create a strong enough magnetic field across the stator gap to work effectively)
so using these wedge magnets i can get more magnets in the same space.... now, with this i would be going from your example using 12 magnets and 9 coils to my 16 magnets and 12 coils... still maintaning the 4;3 ratio. do you see any issues with this.
only thing i can think of is that coils are going to have to be on the small side.
and for number sake, i have thinking of doind a 15ft dia prop.... but i am also thinking of more than 3 blades, but i havent looked into it allot.

here is some monthly average wind speeds for where i currenly am in southern california.
it is broken down monthly, jan-dec, and the last is anually, a note, this data was collected from a automatic weather station from 1996-2006.
TWENTYNINE PALMS EAF |KNXP|1996-2006| 7.0 7.8 8.5 10.4 9.5 9.7 8.3 7.8 6.9 6.7 6.6 6.9 | 8.0

and for anyone interested here is the page.
<a href="http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westwind.final.html">http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westwind.final.html</a>

StressMan79

08-13-2010, 12:33 PM

to the series rod? You should seriously just write a book. I'd review it for you for the low low commission of a signed first edition.
-Peter

rreidnauer

08-13-2010, 01:27 PM

Oops, I forgot about this. Yea, I'll get back to it here shortly.

andrew mason

08-30-2010, 06:55 AM

bump

rreidnauer

08-30-2010, 04:48 PM

Ugh, yea, I know. I'm slacking. I've just been burried with al kinds of things. I just got in from 12 hours on the road, so I'm in no state of mind for another chapter. I'll try to fit one in here sooner or later.

StressMan79

11-08-2010, 01:21 PM

...I'm looking at you, Rod!

rreidnauer

11-24-2010, 08:26 AM

Here we go.
So now if all went well, you should have wound 9 identical coils, and now they need to be wired together. To do that please refer to the nightmare of a sketch below.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/coil_magnet_arrangement2.jpg
I color coded each phase in hopes it makes it easier to understand how it's wired. There are a few important points to note. Most important is that all the coils (at least on a three phase turbine) need to be wound in the same direction. Whether that's clockwise or counter-clockwise doesn't matter, just as long as they are all the same. If you had one coil wound opposite the other two, it would cancel out one of the correct coils, severly limiting output. In addition, all three groups of three coils must also be in the same wind direction, or you'll end up with interaction problems, also severly limiting output. So, just make sure all your coils are laid in the same direction, and you'll have no problems.
So tying coils together, you need to wire the "end" lead of the first coil, to the "start" lead of next coil in the proper phase. (that being every third as shown in the sketch above) and do the same from second coil to the third. When you get to the end lead on the third coil of a phase, you will be connecting it to the end leads of the third coils of the other two phases. (you don't need to take them to the center to terminate them. I just drew it that way to clarify) The start leads of the first coil in each phase are your output leads. (hopefully the sketch makes more sense than the explanation)
So to physically tie the leads together, I prefer an uninsulated crimp sleeve (or a piece of copper icemaker tubing if the wires are too big for common crimp sleeves) To do this requires a few steps for a long lasting, trouble-free connection. First, with the coils positioned as they will be in the stator, (and I prefer to do it right in the stator mold, but it's not necessary) trim the wires to length between coils. (if using icemaker line, have the wires overlap instead of butting together) You need to remove the epoxy insulation from the magnet wire, and the best way to do this is to take a torch and litterally burn it off where you'll be making the connections. Then take some sandpaper to remove residual epoxy and shine up the wire. Before placing the leads in the crimp sleeve, slide a piece of heat shrink tubing over one of the leads and slide out of the way. Put the leads in the crimp sleeve and crimp. I highly recommend soldering the connection as well, and it's best to use a silver solder. Afterwards, slip the heatshrink over the connection and heat it to shrink. Repeat for the rest of the connections, including the end leads of the three phases. There should be a total of seven connections to make.
How to handle the output leads is up to the individual. Most people would just have the wires exit the mold, and connect to a screw drilled through the stator's edge. I prefer to embed brass toilet bolts in the stator, and solder the leads to the bolts. Once you have the coils wired, now is a great time to find a way to temporarily secure them so you can move them as a group. An easy way to do this is to take pieces of fiberglass laying across the legs of two coils, and use CA glue to bond the two together. Do this to all nine places, then carefully flip the coils over, and do the same to the other side. At this point, the coils will be a pretty rigid, single mass.

Next, stator mold construction.

rreidnauer

08-19-2011, 05:28 PM

The stator mold is pretty straight forward compared to everything mentioned previously. Size is simple to determine. The inside opening needs to be large enough to allow the rotor threaded rods to pass through, and the outside diameter needs to be large enough to allow drilling mounting holes in it, outside the area where the coils are embedded. Meanwhile, thickness is determined by the coils themselves, only making the stator slightly thicker than the coils themselves.

I just picked up a three 2'x2' pieces of particle-board for my mold, at the local big-box store, to build up a three layer sandwich. The top and bottom layers don't involve much work, but the middle layer does get significant modifications. OK, to each their own, the following is how I made mine. If you come up with another way to achieve similar results at reduced costs, great!

I found center of one of the boards, and took a makeshift circle compass to mark both the inside and outside diameters of where I was going to need to remove material for the coils. I then laid that piece on top of one of the other boards. I screwed the top board to the bottom board (countersinking the heads) and careful NOT to put any screws where I needed to remove material. I then drilled a 1/4" hole dead center in the board, and from the bottom up, placed a 1/4-20 bolt long enough to reach through three boards and still have enough length to put on a nut. At this point I was ready to route out my mold, but required two items. One was a circle jig. (you can buy these, but I just made my own from some 1/4" luan plywood) The other item was a tapered router bit, which allows easier extraction of your stator from the mold. A straight vertical raised-panel bit works perfectly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/routering_stator_mold.jpg
I set my circle jig to route out the inner diameter edge, and began to plunge cut the bit until it was as deep as the coil thickness. I cut all the way around, then did the same for the outer diameter. (in my case, my coils were a little thicker than the boards, so I ended up routing out a bit more in the lid. Don't do this, instead route deeper into the bottom board if need be. You'll have less problems with trapped air later)
What not to do: (domed lid)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/Mold_Lid.jpg
I finished up by drilling a 1/4" hole dead center in the top board, and also drilling holes where I want the power output lugs (the brass toilet bolts) to go, and coating the inside of the mold with mold release wax.

Next episode, finishing up the stator.

loghousenut

08-20-2011, 01:48 AM

Hey Rod, If that stator mold has got ya worried, I have a fungus nut who can identify it for you. Ha ha.

StressMan79

08-22-2011, 03:40 PM

LHN, your fungus is talking now? JK... Rod, great to see that the thread is back up and running!

StressMan79

12-10-2013, 02:33 PM

Ha, well, since this thread has become active again, I may as well share some of the progress I've been making. So here's some pics of the alternator construction.

Stator layout with magnet placement visualization. You can see I've been playing with different coil shapes. I've changed my mind at least three times already, including once today!

Magnets glued onto rotors, and template for setting magnets. At this point, the rotors are VERY dangerous to handle. Each magnet by itself has 87 lbs. of pull, together it's 1044 lbs, and with the flux conductance of the rotor, it's even higher to a value I'm unable to determine, but it could be as high as double, and that's only one rotor!!!! Needless to say, if you got your fingers between the rotor and some heavy steel, or the other rotor, you can kiss them fingers goodbye. It would squeeze them clean off!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

And this is cutting the mold that will make up the stator drawn in the first picture. You can see the hub assembly laying in the background.

That's about where I'm at. More to come.
Rod, why is one coil shaped differently on the bottom right?