Any micro-hydro experts around?

[Will Dye]

LOL... I'd settle for someone with some stray thoughts. From what I've been reading at otherpower.com and other places it seems like you could get by running a DC system capable of powering a home on a tiny stream. There's just not much out there on small DC systems that I have been able to find. I'm kinda fixated on the DC systems right now because it seems to require alot less head and flow which opens up more possible building sites. I may be dreaming but I'm gettin the idea that with a permanent magnet alternator, an old forklift battery, an inverter, and a few other small details I left out that I can make my own power. Where has my thought process taken a wrong turn?

[rreidnauer]

It can be tough getting sizeable amounts of power from a small stream. If you've done some research on Otherpower, then you already know that a micro hydro turbine's power is determined by pressure (head) and volume (flow) There is no way to get more power from less water or from a transmission (belt & pulleys, gears, etc.) So, to get the most out of what you can get from the available water you have, you must design for efficiency. Wherever possible, direct drive the turbine to the alternator/generator. Transmissions rob some percentage of power. Use a permanent magnet alternator/generator. Car alternators, though cheap, are far too inefficient. If using something like a Pelton design, use the largest pipe practical, to keep friction losses low. Keep electric lines as short a feasibly possible, and go with the larges gauge wire you can afford. This will keep line losses to a minimum. I recommend transmitting your power via AC until you get to the batteries, then convert to DC via rectifiers. AC can be transmitted a bit more efficiently, and it also gives you the ability to remotely turn off your turbine. (by shorting the lines to the PMA on the AC side of the rectifier(s))

Now for some good news. A micro hydro turbine doesn't need to produce nearly as much wattage as solar or wind generators. Reason being, while solar and wind may only produce a few houras a day on average, hydro runs 24/7. Potentially, a hydro can be only 1/10th the size of a solar/wind system, and still make the same amount of power over a given year.

I'm not sure about the following specs, so check into it, but I believe the alternator's rated output should probably be sized between 10 and 30 percent of the rated amp hours of the battery bank. Too small, and the batteries will fall below the 80% charge and begin to sulfate. Too large, and you'll be boiling electrolyte and shortening service life.

Hope some of this helps.

[Will Dye]

Hey Rod. I have learned one way to keep from overcharging your battery bank is to have a control unit that switches the juice over to another load when the batteries are charged. One good suggestion I read is to run the load to a heating element in your hot water heater. I was also picturing a small power house close to the stream to house the turbine, batteries, inverter and control module. That would cut down on the loss of power from transmission to the house cause I'd been sending conditioned AC through the lines. I've seen pictures of those permanent magnet alternators mounted to a housing with two, three, or even four jet nozzles that spin a pelton style wheel. That Lil' Otto set up puts out 150 watts an hour on I think they said as little as five gallons a minute with about five feet of head. I guess that'd be OK for a weekend cabin but a guy with a wife sure couldn't live on that little power. I'd just like to see some systems and hear how much success people have had with them. Electrical is one of my weakest areas but the whole thing doesn't sound that complicated. I just really think these set ups can give you alot of juice for a long time with low maintenance if you build it right.

[rreidnauer]

Yes, diverting to a "dump load" is mandatory for hydro systems. To simply disconnect the batteries from the charging source will damage the turbine. (overspeed)

I wasn't talking about overcharging (exceeding the full charge state) but rather over (or under) charging rate (how quickly you replenish the battery's charge) Say you had a 24 v, 200 Ah battery bank, and you had a 500 watt generator. (20.8 amps) That would be about right. (10.4% charge ratio, or 2.4 hrs from 75% to full) But say you put a 50 Ah battery in there instead. That would be charged way too fast, (41.6% charge ratio, or 0.6 hrs from 75% to full) and would heat up the battery, gas off some electrolyte, and overall shorten the life of the battery. At the same time, you wouldn't want to put a 1000 Ah battery bank in, (2.1% charge ratio, or 12.0 hrs from 75% to full) since the generator wouldn't be able to get it replenished in a reasonable amount of time, especially if you have other loads turned on.

there's a lot to think about.

[ponyboy]

Battery's
http://www.beutilityfree.com/nife.html

[rreidnauer]

Battery's
http://www.beutilityfree.com/nife.html
Yup, Nickel Iron batteries are quite good at surviving excessive discharge, (they don't sulfate) but they do have a fairly high idle self discharge rate of their own. Not a problem with a hydro system. You just have to take that factor into account.

I also wanted to mention about your comment of converting to 110 at/near the source. I too found myself coming to the same conclusion, mentioned in some thread in this section. It seems to be the best solution for maintaining affordable wiring and still efficient.

[GT.]

You can buy the batteries direct from manufacturer or his distributor in US

http://www.changhongbattery.com/english/cp/view.asp?id=129

[ponyboy]

I think that the "be utility free" web site is the exclusive North American distributor for that (changhong) battery.

[GT.]

Changhong has contact information on website:

North America
Tel:
+1 604 2667 186
Fax:
+1 604 2667 286
Email:
hon-au@shaw.ca

Maybe they sell it cheaper then "be utility free" guys
Hope it will be helpful for somebody else...

[GT.]

Battery's
http://www.beutilityfree.com/nife.html
Yup, Nickel Iron batteries are quite good at surviving excessive discharge, (they don't sulfate) but they do have a fairly high idle self discharge rate of their own. Not a problem with a hydro system. You just have to take that factor into account.


Rod, what you think about using of batteries of this type with solar panels and/or wind turbines ?

[rreidnauer]

Well, it depends on the situation. Like I said, they tend to self discharge a sizable portion of their power, (discharging as much as 10% in the first day, and roughly 5% every 10 days thereafter) making them significantly less efficient than a typical lead-acid battery. But, for certain cases, the nearly indestructible nature of the battery would make it a perfect candidate for places like an unattended cabin where the possibility of complete discharge could occur. (something that would kill a lead-acid battery in short order) The main advantage would be, it would likely be the last battery bank you'd ever have to buy, as they usually last a lifetime. (or longer) About the only thing you have to do is keep the electrolyte topped up and change the electrolyte ever 12~15 years. Being that they accept deep discharging far superiorly than a lead-acid, you can get away with a smaller bank of batteries. Lead-acid shouldn't be discharged below 75~80% capacity, as it will shorten it's life significantly if you do. A nickel-iron battery can be safely pulled down to 50% (and even lower) without harmful effects.

Comparison:
1000 amp/hour lead-acid bank, 75% discharge = 250Ahr or 25 amps for 10 hours.
500 amp/hour nickel-iron bank, 50% discharged = 250Ahr or 25 amps for 10 hours.
Half the capacity, same amount of available power. (technically more)

OK, another factor. Nickel-iron batteries have a lower cell voltage than lead-acid, (1.2v vs. 2.1v per cell) so more batteries will be required in a string to achieve the voltage needed. With their relatively higher price, it can make for a pricey battery bank, but when you consider that a lead-acid bank will get changed out several time in your lifetime, in the end, it's cheaper. (if you can absorb the high upfront cost)

So, if you can live with the upfront cost, (unless you're lucky enough to come across an old set for free) the lower efficiency, and a slightly different maintenance schedule, (more regular watering, but less equalizing charges) they are far superior to lead-acid. It's something each individual has to weigh for themselves.

[erisso]

Hi All ,
Well Rod Im one of the lucky that got a bank of 7, NIFE BATTERIES-REDDITCH metal cell. having 8 cell each + one of 4 cell?? total of 60 cell.
Thing is i cant find any info for them on the web as for the site posted in preveous message i cant find data sheet (http://www.changhongbattery.com/english/cp/view.asp?id=129) and im not quite shore what i really have as storage and power
Originally there was: 92 cell for a total of 120 Amp/Hours, Normal charge 24 amp for 7 hours, (battery #M2743, Type LR12 )

I have set up a 24V, 1200W turbine with a control unit switches.
according to what you said preveously, dont think the ratio is good,
but if not do you know what do i need to add
+ do these Bat. need special care as for charging (can they over heat)
+ can they safely be used and stored in my home
or could they produce harmful gas and therefor should not be in the house

Thanks for reading and any help or information would be appreciated

[rreidnauer]

Congratulations on your find. There's a good chance that the electrolyte hasn't been changed in a long time, and should be your first thing to do, but you can do some testing first and what they're worth. (actually, a before and after test would be interesting)

I didn't know there were NiFe batteries out there in combined cell cases, but so be it. Always something new for me to learn. :-) Ideally, for your 24v arrangement, you'd want 20 cells in a string. I don't know if you can break up individual cells, but if so, you could make up three strings of 20 cells. If you can, it'd look a bit like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/batteryarrangement.jpg

Note, the 7th eight cell battery is electrically split into two four cell units. Care must be taken to get the positive and negatives in the right order when splitting up the cells, because if you get one (or more) wrong, your overall string voltage will be lower.

Alright, if you gotten this far, you'll need to determine what your Amp-hour capacity is. To do this, you need to charge the battery bank up. They are considered fully charged when cell voltage is 1.4V (28V per string) at rest after 30 minutes from removing from charge. Keep an eye on electrolyte levels when charging, as air is the enemy of NiFe batteries. It's possible they may not come up to full voltage, so you just have to do what you can. Once you got the bank charged as best as you can, you need to do a timed discharge at a known amperage rate. You'll need to know the amperage of your (preferably resistive) test load, (series up two car headlights perhaps) and you'll need to watch the voltage. NiFes are considered discharged at 1.2V per cell, (24V per string) and will drop off rapidly after reaching that value. I prefer a small load, say 5 perhaps 10 amps. It's a much longer test, but the results will be more accurate. Car headlights are about 5 amps. (two in series will still be 5 amps, and two sets paralleled to two in series will give about 10 amps at 24V)

OK, so the test loads are hooked up, and you note beginning time and the amperage being drained from the bank. Also note the voltage and write it down. When you initially connect the load, there will probably be a slight drop in voltage, but it should stabilize. Check back ever 30~60 minutes and record the voltage. If you start to see a voltage drop, check back more often. When you start to see voltage dropping off rapidly, you've reached the discharge limit of the batteries. Note the time. So, now you have a know amperage at a known number of hours, you multiply hours by the amperage and you get the battery bank Amp-hours.

Depending on what you come up with, you'll know how well it will work with your turbine. One thing to note, it's likely the wind turbine won't be putting out a full 1200 watts very often, so it will probably be fine. You must have dump loads on a turbine, so they will absorb the extra power when you are at full power production. Some other things to take into consideration. Most charge controllers are designed for lead acid batteries, so you may have to work through some teething issues to get it working right. More expensive controllers should be more flexible in controlling charge rates and voltages. NiFes do like to be charged slower than Lead acid, so you will need to watch temperatures and electrolyte levels closely while you figure out what works, but the good news is they are much more tolerant to damage than lead acid, so that should ease some worries while you experiment. I believe they vent off a combination of hydrogen and oxygen, so they should be treated in the same fashion as lead acid. (preferably not in the house, or at very least, an airtight container vented outdoors) Nifes also have a wider voltage range than lead acid, so it might drive some inverters nuts on low/high voltage shutdowns.

[erisso]

Thanks for your reply Rod,
I can break up to individual cells so think i can manage building this as 24 Volt
But i was thinking of 12V installation as it would be easier for me to work with and keeping the 4 cell as spare
now you got me worried about fast charging!! as it will be charging with lower wattage input
What do you think about the 12V installation?
If eventually needed can i put other type of battery with these or i need to keep same type?
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/Battery1.jpg
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/Bat1.jpg

Eric

[rreidnauer]

OK, that's more like it. Eight single cells packed together. That tag is a great example of the lower efficiency of NiFe batteries. It says 120 Ahrs., but also says 24 amps for 7 hours, which is 168 Ahrs. That's 71.4% efficient. 48 Ahrs will disappear without ever getting to be used.
Since the tag doesn't give a bank voltage, there's no way to determine the original wiring configuration, and therefore the amp-hours of the existing cells you now have. In any case, it looks like your turbine will be too big for the bank, but you can use the excess power to heat water or something.

You can do a 12 volt system, and it will double your amp-hours, but it still requires all your cells. (six strings of ten in series) Since you said your wind turbine is 24 volts, you'd have to deal with that. Stepping down the voltage will induce some additional losses. Also, 12 volt in general is going to be less efficient, and requires larger cables. (exponentially as amperage increases) But, it's easier to find affordable 12 volt inverters, appliances, and charging equipment, so it's a balance you'll have to find for yourself.

In either case, 12 or 24 volt arrangement, your wattage input/output is the same. Cut volts in half and you double your amps. If you were to step down your wind turbiine, you'd only increase the amperage coming from it, and the same concern you have of over rate charging still exists. There's no way to determine what your total amp-hours will be without a test, but the battery tag does suggest a good charge rate, (20% of capacity) though, being what they are, they should tolerate a higher rate. (I still think 30% is plenty safe) You just got to do like I mentioned before, and watch your temps and fluid levels if you much higher. You really need to make up those batteries in the configuration you plan to use, and find your amp-hours so you can better plan your charging profile.

You can not mix lead acid batteries with Nife batteries. Also, mixing cells of different Ahr capacities will lead to uneven charging. The bank should consist of all the same size and type cells.

On a side note, I originally planned on a 24V system, but I since decided to bump up to a 48V system. It allows me to get more watts though my charge controller, and keep my wire sizes down to manageable costs. Had I stuck with 24V, I'd been forced to get a second charge controller ($$$) and much larger cabling ($$$) The battery bank size doesn't change for the same wattage, just the battery wiring configuration, so there's no additional cost there. 48V inverters are pricier, but I believe it's worth the efficiency gains.

[erisso]

THANKS AGAIN,
Well to bad i call little late and the guy sold the 4 other battery's for 50$ peace
ok now i will do the testing as soon as find electrolyte and battery pack is mounted
ill be starting 12v as i have a 3000w/6000w 110v converter sitting here
as for wires i have 10 feet from bank to converter
Turbine is already 40 feet up in the air ( it cant turn I locked it)
and wired with 60 feet of #6 to were ill be placing my battery bank

Idd appreciate if you could take a look at my idea of battery configuration in fallowing link

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/configuration2.jpg http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/CONfiguration.jpg

as i cant add battery to my bank
i thot of adding a bank that would help in 2 ways,
absorbing extra watt that my bank cant take from turbine and giving me extra storage without changing all batterys
both are showing 12v but as said any of them could be converted to 24v easily as both banks are independent.


im maybe off route so any comment is appreciated


In your "On a side note" you mention "I'd been forced to get a second charge controller "
I know from an other post that you intend to install a 3 phase turbine,
is this "charge controller" the same as "battery dump regulator" or an other thing thats required for
your installation or for all installations,
(please understand that im French speaking and some times same thing with 2 names gets me confused)

Eric

[erisso]

an addition
if my batterys are 12v for 8 cells this is 1.5V each
if im putting 2 extra cell to the line adding 3V to it for total of 15V per line
will not that drive my inverter crazy as it has hi/low protection
Eric

[rreidnauer]

THANKS AGAIN,
Well to bad i call little late and the guy sold the 4 other battery's for 50$ peace
ok now i will do the testing as soon as find electrolyte and battery pack is mounted
ill be starting 12v as i have a 3000w/6000w 110v converter sitting here
as for wires i have 10 feet from bank to converter
Turbine is already 40 feet up in the air ( it cant turn I locked it)
and wired with 60 feet of #6 to were ill be placing my battery bank

Idd appreciate if you could take a look at my idea of battery configuration in fallowing link

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/configuration2.jpg http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff283/erisso/CONfiguration.jpg

as i cant add battery to my bank
i thot of adding a bank that would help in 2 ways,
absorbing extra watt that my bank cant take from turbine and giving me extra storage without changing all batterys
both are showing 12v but as said any of them could be converted to 24v easily as both banks are independent.


im maybe off route so any comment is appreciated


In your "On a side note" you mention "I'd been forced to get a second charge controller "
I know from an other post that you intend to install a 3 phase turbine,
is this "charge controller" the same as "battery dump regulator" or an other thing thats required for
your installation or for all installations,
(please understand that im French speaking and some times same thing with 2 names gets me confused)

an addition
if my batterys are 12v for 8 cells this is 1.5V each
if im putting 2 extra cell to the line adding 3V to it for total of 15V per line
will not that drive my inverter crazy as it has hi/low protection


Eric
Too bad those cells got away from you, but I guess you'll have to get by with what you have.

Your mutli battery bank arrangement has me a little concerned. It might work, but it's a little more tricky than it appears. Think of electric like water. The battery bank is like a lake. A battery dump regulator works like an overflow gate on a dam. When the lake is full from incoming water from the river dumping into it, the overflow gate allows what water is coming in to just spill out the other side. Now if you got another lake on the other side of the dam, especially if it's a little higher elevation, (higher bank voltage) the overflow gate won't perform it's job of shedding the extra water, and the first lake overflows.

The problem is, you need a certain amount of over-voltage to drive the amperage into the batteries. While the first bank should charge just fine, I don't think the second bank will. (at least not very well) The voltage will be held at the dump value by the first battery bank, and will probably spill through the second dump regulator, unless you increase the value on the second one. But then, that overcharges the first bank. The only solution is you'd have to set the first regulator at a slightly lower value than the second, basically undercharging the first bank, until the second bank is charged and dumping too. It's not a good way, but it crudely works. You'd want to assure that the voltages of either bank don't exceed the other's full charge state, so one of them is never going to be fully charged.

I think a better solution might be to get something like a 90 amp battery isolator and separate both bank's chargings independently from each other. There are some losses through the isolator, and I still wonder if both banks would receive their full charges.

Yea, especially for wind and hydro turbine applications, "charge controller" and "battery dump regulator" are the same thing, and I tend to use both terms for the same thing. There are differences when applied to solar applications. Actually, for my turbine, I plan on three dump regulators. Each coming on as wind (and current) increase, and to act as a redundant safety should one of the controllers or dump loads burn out.

Yea, as for voltages of the bank. You may need to add or subtract a cell to get the balance required to work with your inverter(s). On larger NiFe systems like 48 volt banks, I've even heard of people having knife switches inline to drop cells in and out depending on state of charge, to control voltage to the inverters. You shouldn't have to worry about that, but you want to shoot for a battery string that doesn't exceed the inverter's high voltage cutoff when the bank is fully charged. And you want to have enough voltage that doesn't trigger the low voltage cutoff before the battery bank is depleted. If you're getting 1.5 volts per cell, I'd be surprised, but even then, I'd want at least 9 cells in a string (13.5 volts) to prevent a low voltage cuttoff when you begin discharging the batteries. (also 9 cells would put a depleted NiFe at 10.8 volts. I think most inverters shut off close to that) But again, I doubt you got 1.5 volts per cell. (might look like that way after immediately removing it from charge though) Eight cells simply won't be enough, because as soon as you apply a load, they'll drop to about 1.3 volts per cell (10.4 volts) and will cause the inverter to drop out on low volts right away.

Oh, one last thing, you can make you own electrolyte by combining 30% potassium hydroxide by weight to distilled water. Supposedly, there is some lithium that can be added too, but I'm unable to find out exactly how much. Also, a small amount of mineral oil is added to the cells to form a "surface film" to block carbon dioxide from getting to the electrolyte and plates. But a web search will turn up manufactures of ready made solutions. If you do see voltages of 1.4 or higher, I wouldn't bother changing the electrolyte. (just yet anyhow)
EDIT: Be careful making up your own eletrolyte if you attempt this. From what I understand, there's quite a thermal reaction when the two ingredients are combined. Do you're homework!

[erisso]

Well i did not receive my regulator yet
i thot the battery dump regulator was a ON/OFF relay sending or not to batterys

using first bank as primelary and dumping load to other bank wen first was full

ill be setting 10 cell per line and see what i get

ill have to rethink this with your 90 amp battery isolator and also like the idea of multiple battery dump regulator
ill be setting 10 cell per line and see what i get
what do you think of fork lift battery bank (other than high price LOL)

Rod, dont know you but im keeping you as friend you are strong in knowledge
this email was receive today from alkaline.co.za ,
witch i dont know were in the world there from as i email manufacturer but they replied

Eric

=====================================
Hello again,

* These batteries are normally used in railway (vibration) environment.
* They are pocket plate high performance cells
* The blocks are at least 30 years old
* Typically the battery will give in the region of 70% of original capacity (84AH)
* Apply this regime

Old battery that has been previously filled
1. The battery should be free of internal rusting (check if you are able)
2. filled with E22 electrolyte special mix with KOH and LiOH
3. Initial charged at 24A for 16 hours constant current
4. Discharge at 24A for 5 hrs
5. Recharge at 24A for 7hrs

* The cells then shall be at the best capacity that they are able to give

Tony Gordon
Project manager
Multi Power Systems
A division of Alstom Electrical SA (Pty) Ltd
Tel:- (+2711) 397-4861
Fax:-(+2711) 397-6094
(+27)(0) 82 373 6166

--
(???.? Eric Rivard ?.???)
(???.? Visit / Visitez ?.???)
http://www.preservation.ca

[rreidnauer]

Well, the dump regulator is an electronic relay. But, you are mistaken on the way the regulator is wired to the battery bank. The batteries are directly wired to the turbine. (well, actually though the rectifier) The regulator is wired in between the battery bank and the dump load. It is wired in this fashion to protect the turbine from a disconnect from load, which would result in overspeeding and damage to it. So you see, the dump load(s) must be at least or larger than the turbine's maximum output to use up it's power when the batteries are full. The cheapest regulators pretty much do just close on a preset high voltage, but the more sophisticated ones actually open and close many cycles per second, as the voltage approaches the set limit, it cycles open more than closed, but increasing voltage alters the ratio so it's closed more than open until the limit is reached, at which time the regulator is fully closed. The really fancy models even control the voltages at different levels to "condition" the batteries. I doubt they are really needed for Nife cells, since they are so tolerant.

As for a forklift battery pack, that's what I was hoping to do. (though, they are lead-acid) I was actually hoping to find a used pack that is still intact, but maybe a bit sulfated from discharge abuse. Using a combination of chemical and electrical desulfation, I'd try to restore the battery. Problem is, if it don't work, I got to dispose of the battery, and that can be pricey.

Looks like Tony's email reply has got a lot of good information in it. I wouldn't take his word on the amp-hours. That may be the rating of each 8 cell pack. (I kind of suspect it is) and if you have several paralleled together, you'll be multiplying that value with each set added to the bank. Again, I recommend doing the capacity test so you can definitively know the true value.

[erisso]

They installed some of this battery's in a ford f750 and seems it could run 160KM on a 10 minute charge

from a reply i got from them " To answer your question, at this time Altairnano only makes those batteries described in the following two attachments." "NanoSafe batteries is slightly above $2.00 USD per wh and the company is working effectively to reduce the cost per wh."
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/NanoSafeBackgrounder060920.pdf
http://www.altairnano.com/documents/NanoSafe_Datasheet.pdf


http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html
Innovative technology
Large configuration choices
No operational safety issues
Three times the power of existing batteries
A one-minute recharge
High cycle life?10,000 to 15,000 charges vs. 750 for existing batteries
The capability to operate in extreme temperatures:
-22? to 480? Fahrenheit


Eric

[Will Dye]

Hey Rod, or anybody. What voltage do you think would be adequate to power a 30 x 30 home? It seems to me you can go 12, 24 or 48 volt. I'd hate to get a good hydro system designed and working and then find out it can't put out what I am happy with.

[rreidnauer]

90% of the time, higher is always better, especially in whole house applications. Despite inverters costing a bit more, the main reason for a high voltage system is lower cost wiring and equipment, and higher efficiency as wattage increases.

I'll give an example. I currently have twelve 175 watt panels. My charge controller is rated 60 amps. If I make it a 24 volt system, that's 2100 watts, divided by 24 volts, equals 87.5 amps. Too much for the controller, so I'd have to shell out another $500 for a second one. Also, I'd need to run 1/0 copper cable to run up to 70 feet!!!!

Now for 48 volt. Same equation equals 43.75 amps. Within one controller's limit. And I only need to run #6 to go the same distance.

So with the price of today's copper, you can see the added cost of an inverter can be quickly offset by the reduction of installation materials.

In case anyone is wondering, my controller (Outback MX-60) is very flexible for input/output voltages, so I can make decision changes like this, and not get penalized by having to buy new equipment.

[Will Dye]

Hey Rod! I'm bidding on one of those electric pallet jacks on Ebay right now. I've bid a whopping 75 dollars on it but it is still at 39 I think. Reserve isn't met on it but you never know they might just wanna get rid of it. It's got a 24 volt battery. Battery is said to be in good shape. Shouldn't that be more than enough battery capacity for a 30x 30 house? I know ther are alot more variables involved and I don't know anything about the battery and I am assuming it is lead acid. Another good thing is that the company I work at here in Louisville will let you bring in ANY battery to dispose of at work. LOL...would almost be fun to drop that one on them.

[rreidnauer]

Is it enough? Well, it still depends on several factors.

1. Type and amp-hours of the battery?
Good chance it's lead acid, and whatever the capacity, remember that you can only utilize 20~25% of that capacity. I think most them batteries run around 70~100 amp-hours

2. Type and rate of your charging source?
At the beginning of this thread, you said a hydro system. Have you determined the potential energy available? Timed the volume of the flow?

3. What will your average household Kwh usage be?
This is a biggy. You need to know your household usage. Depending on lifestyle, everything hinges on this. Myself, I'm comfortable to be flexible with my usage, and use only what's available, rather than trying to produce enough to meet my needs. (did that make sense?)

I doubt that battery (actually, it will be batteries) will be big enough for a whole home, unless your extremely frugal with your energy needs. I'm thinking something in the 1000 amp-hour range for a 24v system would be more realistic for whole home usage. (keep in mind a 48v system would be only half that, but because it takes twice as many batteries to make up a string, the number of batteries in the bank will be the same)

Final note on buying used batteries on Ebay or elsewhere. If the amp-hours are not listed, there's a very high chance the person selling them knows absolutely nothing about batteries. With the exemption of the bank voltage, it's the most important piece of information about the batteries. Anyone who knows batteries would know to list this info. So if someone is trying to tell you that they are reconditioned and in great shape, but doesn't know the capacity, then how can you take their word they know anything about the batteries state in the first place?

[Will Dye]

LOL...Rod I don't have land with a stream yet so it's kinda hard to tell you the head and flow. I may be going about this bass ackwards but I thought maybe I should start trying to collect some components of my system as I find a deal here and there. The auction says it's an electric pallet jack and that it charges and works fine. But you've already informed me yet again of something I didn't know as far as what it will be capable of. It's about a 600 pound battery and I am assuming it's lead acid also. I'm kinda like you, I'll use whatever power I can manage to produce and cut back to get by or use grid power. I'm gonna aim for about 400 watts an hour if I can. I was reading Home Power and they said that would power a "typical" house.
Another thing, what do you think of these Delco alternators that they are modifying with permanent magnets? I wonder what kind of head and flow it would take to get 400 watts an hour out of them and how dependable they are? Seems like it would be a cheap and plentiful source for a power plant if they work OK. I haven't been able to find any numbers on them.

[rreidnauer]

Yea, I think those Delco auto alternators being converted to PMA's is probably nearly ideal for Turgo or Pelton style hydro applications, since they are still going to need to turn a fairly high RPM, which they are capable of. Probably not so good for a spillway type hydro generator. Here's a good calculator for figuring potential power for a Pelton/Turgo style application for given water flow: http://nooutage.com/hydroele.htm#How%20much%20power

For spillway applications, you'd be better off building a slower turning axial flux alternator, like the one I've shown in the wind generation thread.

[erisso]

Im looking to get an 24V inverter ( ill be putting it 24V finaly)
was thinking what would be better have "Xantrex Grid Tie Interface" linked with the grid to send what ever it produce in to my line or just add an inverter to use it with a transfer switch box
Second would be lot cheaper but the problem i see with Inverter and switch box is if the switch goes on grid
then the inverter has no load, and if the batteries are full and inverter could produce electricity
it would not turn its self ON and reverse the switch as it has no demand
if anyone has an opinion on this
Just to have an idea, If i use year average of 3.1 kwh what would i need as battery pack it may sound lot but i have incubators and hatcher running 24H/day + my nursery
also what is average electricity cost for other folks i get it for .06KWH

Thanks Eric

[rreidnauer]

Although the grid tied systems are pricey, they sure do make life a whole lot easier. Automatic power routing and no batteries to maintain. Sweet. I find it hard not to recommend going that route, but it can make the homeowner "lazy" in the conservation aspect of being environmentally friendly, since you still have unlimited power always available. Just be sure your power supplier allows grid-ties.

OK, the battery question. I assume you mean an average of 3.1 Kw continuously over the course of a year. Really, a peak value and time of the year that occurs would make sizing much more accurate. So, I'll just figure 3.1 Kw each hour. (he he, I don't use that much in an entire day!) So a continuous drain of 3.1 KW over a 24 hr. period is 74.4 Kwh. At 24v, that's 3,100 Ahr. Given a lead-acid battery bank shouldn't be drained more than 25% of it's capacity, it means you'd require a bank of at least 12,400 Ahr!!!! Yes, that is a lot of battery, but it gets worse. The charging size will have to be massive. A 24/7 hydro system has to be about 4.2 Kw to provide sufficient charge just to keep up with demand, (including efficiency losses) But you can downsize the battery bank considerably with a hydro system, only required for power surges. Solar is even tougher, since you are limited to charging hours. How long can you run if you have a few stormy days? The battery bank will need to be increased for such days. Let's say you want to have sufficient battery charge for three days without charging. That's 9,300 Ahr, requiring a battery bank of 37,200 Ahr!!! YIKES!!! Solar panels required for simply keeping up with power usage alone would be on the range of 22.4 Kw, based on 4.5 hours of adequate sunlight per day, but for recharging for cloudy days would require more, like on the order of 33.5 Kw. At 24v, your talking about (you ready for this?) an amperage of 1,395 from the solar panels!!!! I'd hate to have to pay for the wiring for that!!! As you can see, 24 volts for such a high demand system is not reasonable. Even at 48 volts, that's a huge amperage demand. Really, solar isn't practical for commercial use unless your willing to dump a huge expense into it.

Oh, we run at $0.08 Kwh here in PP&L territory of SE Pennsylvania.

[erisso]

Let go crazy and for the best
37,200 Ahr NANOSAFE battery bank, that would total to 75,000$, solar panel run for +/- 3-4$/W= 78,000$, grid tie 5000$, 2/0awg cable 4$ feet ??? Total system for over 160,000$
in the event that no maintenance is required at .08$WH it would take 70years to get even
hummm need to fin the place to put all that,

[erisso]

Not shore of sorce