Rather than pay for solar panels, why not...

[Greg M.]

just turn the lights off?

I have been thinking a lot about solar. To prepare for our anticipated lifestyle, we have been doing little things like using an oil lamp rather than the overhead, 4-bulb ceiling light.

As I have thought more about this, I wondered about how my energy bill would be substantially impacted by these kinds of new habits as well as using a James Hand Washer, washing dishes buy hand, making coffee with a percolator, propane everything and a well-designed house.

I have to stay on the grid anyway because in South Texas, doing without AC is just not an option (for us). But I can easily imagine whole days of using electricity for nothing but AC, ceiling fans and power tools. So the question becomes why spend $$$ on solar panels when you can just turn everything off?

I would like to have a minimum amount of solar panel in the event of an emergency. That way I could have a few hours of power everyday while the grid is down.

I guess what I am arguing against is the use of so many solar panels to maintain a current on-grid lifestyle. Wouldn't the best of both worlds be to keep the $$$ in your pocket by being frugal with electricity rather than pay the utility company OR the solar panel manufacturer?

[chadfortman]

Greg this Chad i been living out in the mountains for a year next month.
I use a generator and wirless internet battries on the laptop.
On off time i got a wax lamp thats what they use allot now check it out at wallmart.
I miss electric full time and the other stuff but i got sacrfise some things to get my cabin built cheep.
I think you might want try it first before you do a plunge like i did.
Not allot people can take this way of living.
Tomarrow the electric guy come tell me where dig the hole it only took a year get the slugs here.
Permits are in some. I got work on my plans next with a friend to get them passed.
If you got qwestion send me a not on here seya :D

[dbtoo]

The cost of the panels in only part of the issue. The larger cost, IMHO, is the inverter. You need a pure sine wave inverter, don't even think about getting any other kind. Since you are on grid, get a pure sine wave inverter that can tie to the grid. Call your electric company and find out what their rules are. You can sell your power back to the electric company. Set it up with batteries, and when they drop power during a storm, you won't go without.

[ponyboy]

This got me thinking about oil lamps. Can you use Bio-diesel for the lamp oil? Or does it have to be refined a little bit more. I figure it would be a little bit thinner than pure vegetable oil. Would it burn clean enough?

[Greg M.]

This got me thinking about oil lamps. Can you use Bio-diesel for the lamp oil? Or does it have to be refined a little bit more. I figure it would be a little bit thinner than pure vegetable oil. Would it burn clean enough?

Bio-Diesel is a substitute for diesel, not lamp oil. I would not want to risk putting a burning match near anything like that. The only things I have seen these types of lamps run on is kerosene and lamp oil. And some work with only one or the other, but not both, depending on the type of burner and wick.

[rreidnauer]

just turn the lights off? . . . . . . . . Wouldn't the best of both worlds be to keep the $$$ in your pocket by being frugal with electricity rather than pay the utility company OR the solar panel manufacturer?

Yes, absolutely! Any person (and especially those fully off-grid) using RE sources of energy, will always put conservation at the top of their list. It's always the cheapest option. Guests to someone's home who is off-grid (and with limited energy capacity) are usually driven nuts by such guests, because when they walk out of the living room and to the kitchen to make a sandwich, they leave the lights and TV on. It may not sound like much, but there are only so many watts stored in those batteries, and just burning them up when nobody is there is just senseless. Unfortunately, the low cost of electricity, combined with the general nature of Americans being quite lazy, makes those who are energy conscious look a bit obsessive, but in reality, conservation is the proper choice.



This got me thinking about oil lamps. Can you use Bio-diesel for the lamp oil? Or does it have to be refined a little bit more. I figure it would be a little bit thinner than pure vegetable oil. Would it burn clean enough?Bio-Diesel is a substitute for diesel, not lamp oil. I would not want to risk putting a burning match near anything like that. The only things I have seen these types of lamps run on is kerosene and lamp oil. And some work with only one or the other, but not both, depending on the type of burner and wick.

I'm going to disagree with that. It's basicly nothing more than a thinned vegetable oil, and if anything, healthier than burning kerosene. (like I'm burning now) Anyhow, I have tried straight vegetable oil without success. I was using a new cotton wick, which seemed to work at first, but later it seemed that the oil couldn't be wicked fast enough to keep up with the flame's consumption. Perhaps some sort of really loose woven fiberglass wick might work. Anyhow, I got a gallon of biodiesel here just waiting for a test in a lamp. It's got the consistancy of kerosene or diesel, so it should work. I just need to pick up some new wicks for an accurate test. With things like corn stoves having low emmisions, I wonder how organic biodiesel will perform. (provided it will wick properly)

Anyhow, biodiesel isn't monetarily beneficial, unless you were to produce it yourself. (I know a person who's making high quality bio for $0.80 per gallon, but selling it for $2)

[Greg M.]

I understand why someone would go with solar panels if they were so remote that they had no option. Or idealogically opposed to paying a utility company. My question regards someone who is strictly concerned with economics. For someone that will use AC, isn't it more economically feasible to stay on-grid and be extremely frugal than buy solar panels and be extremely frugal?

I think the anwer is yes, but my knowledge is limited and my experience is nil. I just look at the cost of solar panels and think, "OUCH!"

[rreidnauer]

For someone that will use AC, isn't it more economically feasible to stay on-grid and be extremely frugal than buy solar panels and be extremely frugal?

I think the anwer is yes, but my knowledge is limited and my experience is nil. I just look at the cost of solar panels and think, "OUCH!"

The short answer is "Yes." Conservation is always best. Folks who use grid tied systems usually don't make there money back for a very long time. (if ever) But some view it as paying for your electric upfront, then having a reduced or no electric bill. (and with increasing energy costs, the payback accelerates) Then there is a whole other type of person who do it for "ethical" reasons. They believe they are helping to reduce pollution from fossil fuel based energy production, by casting clean energy to the grid. (which is accurate, though, the impact is probably quite small) Then there is a small radical group who does this illegally in the name of saving the planet. (by grid tying without obtaining permits and inspections) They are known as Guerrilla Solar. http://www.homepower.com/magazine/guerrilla.cfm

I guess it all comes down to what your personal views are.

[rreidnauer]

This got me thinking about oil lamps. Can you use Bio-diesel for the lamp oil? Or does it have to be refined a little bit more. I figure it would be a little bit thinner than pure vegetable oil. Would it burn clean enough?

So I started running some tests on this. I picked up a new lamp, so the results wouldn't be influenced by any residual dino juice. First test, to see how volatile biodiesel may be. I put about 0.2 cc of bio on a piece of slate, and put a match near it. It wouldn't burn that way, but placing the match directly in it cause the match to flare up. I had a small ash pile from some used trioxane fuel, so I added about 0.1 cc of bio to the ash. placing a match to it caused it to light, and it burned in a very controllable fashion. Dripping 0.05 cc every few seconds maintained the flame. OK, all looks good, on to the lamp. I filled it up, and gave the wick time to absorb the bio. Looked like everything was going to work. I lit the lamp and it was burning nice, (pic 1) but with a bit of time, the flame reduced down to what seems to be limited by the wicking rate of the cotton wick, (pic 2) and quite a bit dimmer. (as seen by the more opened irus on the camera)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/bio-oil_lamp.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/bio-oil_lamp2.jpg

So, conclusions. First, no smell, even when standing directly over the lamp. Burns very clean. Second, bio is still slightly too thick for the cotton wick. Something with a looser weave should work perfect. Third, the flame can be "run up" much higher than a kero flame, before it begins to smoke, generating additional light. (at higher consumption rates) Fourth, Light output seems identical to dino fuel when set to similar flame heights.

Next step: find a more compatible wick.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Follow up: Looks like someone has been working on this: http://www.wickstore.com/BioFuel_Wick.html

[ponyboy]

Have you tried Wickipedia... Hah! Get it! Wick... Wickipedia.. (wikipedia)... Hello? Is this thing on? :roll: Sheesh, tough crowd. :)

That's cool about the biodiesel Rod. Now for the zippo lighter...

[Mark OBrien]

Ponyboy, you are wicked. :mrgreen: Sawwy, couldn't resist.

[ponyboy]

:lol:

[dcbrewmeister]

If you are currently on-grid, buying solar panels and converting your house to run off the power generated by them will cost you more than ~10 years of electric bills.

I live in Texas also and have thought about doing some things to take advantage of the nearly continuous sun here. After carefull research and avoiding the "just jump in" method, I have found out converting a house from grid power to solar (or ANY other alternitive source) is probably not worth it. Oh and forget the 220v you will need for your A/C, you can't afford to generate that much power.

What I have found out is if you are building a new house, you're in luck. There are numerous ways to build a house that will use VERY LITTLE grid power. How about a washing machine that uses 165 watt-hours of power per load compared to nearly 1000+ for a standard washer. Forget the 220v dryer. 220v is what's killing your electric bill in the first place.

Other savings? Use a propane/natural gas stove with pilot lights or "clicker" type starters for the burners and the oven.

Tankless hot water heaters - why are storing hot water that cost you to make on the off chance someone will need hot water? One of the most wasteful appliances in your house, again (most likely) 220v.

All that most "cookie-cutter" builders care about is gettitng a house built and off their books.

You want to save money on your electric bills? Replace every bulb in the "living" part of your home to the "twisty" flourescent bulbs - less wattage - same output. Put rooms that the light gets "left on" on timers. Turn off lights when you leave a room. My friend you lives alone leaves every light on in the house and sits in the living room watching TV.

Selling power back to the grid is a pipe dream, you won't make enough to make it worth your time and effort not to mention your $$$$$ the system will cost you. And think about what you pay per kW, they are not going to buy if from you for more than you are paying for it.

Tax savings? Oh sure 30% of what it cost you with a yearly maximum of $2,000, so you had better seriously consider the $20,000 - $30,000 it's going to cost for the system in the first place.

I'm moving to Alaska. The land I am looking at is near a road, but no utilities are even close. I'm doing a combination of solar and wind generator for my power needs. Solar won't give you much in the winter, wind should be nearly a year round source. The house I have planned will be set up from the get-go for off-grid power - dc appliances, dc lighting, dc fans, dc water pump and preasure system. I'll be getting everything I need for less than $10,000 and doing most (if not all) of the work myself.

Building from the groud up is cheaper than trying to do it after the fact.

dcbrewmeister

[Handymantracy]

What if something like a floating candle was done. A floating platform that displaces enough surface to push liquid up into a center cone.

Or, maybe a floating object that makes a controlled small pool to burn from.

Some ancient oil lamps didn't have wicks. How did they burn? A supply tank and a flame burning in a spout?

I just looked up an old style lamp. (Argand Lamp). Below is a link. This looks cool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argand_lamp
Just a thought or two from the newbie.