hydroelectric

[Oneshot]

Has anyone had any dealings with small hydroelectric power sources?

[Basil]

Small and hydroelectric don't usually go together. I've looked into it a little, mostly in the area of hydraulic rams and screw pumps to move water for livestock. It might be easier to get an answer if you define "small"

[rreidnauer]

Ehhhh, I'll disagree with that to some degree. If you are the lucky person who has the privledge of decent amount of water, which drops a decent distance, on your property, then that makes you a candidate for a nice amount of potential electric.

The basic formula is 20 foot drop (or head) and 100 gallons per minute, will yield 200 watts. (it works the other way too, 100 ft and 20 gpm, or any combination thereof) Double either, you double the power. Double both and you quadruple the power!

OK, so say your water supply can only yield maybe 2, 3, 400 watts. What you must consider is, unlike that of solar or wind, it's going to be pumping out power around the clock. So, even a 200 watt generater will be making close to 5 kWhr of power every day. That's comparable to 1000 watts of solar for a typical day, since the solar panels would only average rated output about 5 hours a day. And what about those cloudy days? The total kWhrs at the month will add up significantly in comparison.

If I had a decent stream, I'd be using it.

[Oneshot]

I've been reading about micro hydoelectric. However I'm no electrician so I'm not sure what the potential for this would be. Maybe backup to the power company or are we talking whole house potential?

[dbtoo]

If you are the lucky person who has the privledge of decent amount of water, which drops a decent distance, on your property, ... And it does not freeze over during the winter....

[rreidnauer]

And it does not freeze over during the winter....

Well, true enough, a lot would depend on the installation.

Anyhow, Oneshot's question. (and a bit of a loaded one at that) For some, that's enough power, and for others, not even close. It all depends on your situation. The easiest way to see what you'd need is take a look at your electric bill. It will tell you what you use (in kWh's) for the month. Dividing the total by 30 will roughly give you your daily kWh's.

Now mind you, a typical home isn't configured for efficient use of electricity. Grid electric is generally cheap enough that folks don't mind wasting it. (here in my area, wholesale rate contracts expire in 2007 and costs are anticipated to go up 300%. Then we'll see if folks are still so extravagant in their power usage) For off grid folks, design of their homes and regulation of power usage extremely lowers the amount of power used, and still live comfortably. Though, self generation costs more than grid power. (well, at least for now) I doubt you'd ever break even generating you're own power. Depending if you'd use a battery bank or grid tied system, the related costs or maintenance will probably always keep you on the negative side.

So what kind of money are we talking? Well, let's look at that 200 watt hydro generator example. Running continuous, it would generate 144 kWh a month. At say, $0.09/kWh, that's a whopping $12.96 of power for the month. Not much of a dent in that electric bill, eh? But many grid tied folks are happy just cutting their electric bill by 30, 50, 70%. The easiest way to cut your bill is simply to conserve electric.

But most folks aren't in it for the money. It's usually a case of either ethical reasons, (Green power!! Save the Earth!!) or because the cost of tying into the grid is prohibitively expensive.

So Oneshot, what kind of water you got there? What's you're climate like? And, how many kWh's you using a month?

[Basil]

Another consideration with water is that it rises and falls. I've got two streams and a (sometimes) large creek on my farm. They fluctuate a lot, which means there's all kinds of things that can go wrong like connections being washed out, strength of attachment methods, and of course, the tree/limb/cow/whatever that floats down the stream and crashes into your system...dislodging or jamming it.

although i've got a lot of water on my place, I've just never (personally) considered it viable for me. Besides, my creek is a "navigable" waterway, which means rednecks in canoes are floating down stream smoking pot, drinking beer, catching fish and I'm sure wouldn't have any problem messing with my gear if noone else is around.

[rreidnauer]

Yea, I think we're thinking two different systems. Instead of a spillway design, I was thinking a buried piped system, which would receive it's water from a pool further upstream, and send it to a generator connected to a Pelton or Turgo impulse turbine which can be installed within a "powerhouse". This would allow for year round use, since the system is below the ice and other freeze factors.

With the exemption of the turbine wheel itself, the system can pretty much be homebuilt quite easily. The wheels themselve aren't all that pricey either. The biggest obsticle is having sufficient amount of water with head and flow. Most folks aren't so privledged. In your case, Basil, it sounds like you don't have sufficent head (or fall) to make power with, though river flow/tidal flow generators have been attempted with minimal results.

If there is still interest, this is a good place to start: http://www.homepower.com/education/comp_hydro.cfm

[Oneshot]

Thanks for the input. The creek on my land is fairly small. Not sure that it will be enough. I still may play with it for the little shack I plan to build later.

[adubar]

Oneshot,
depending upon your land and creek situation (laws) you can improve by use of a small dam or how the water is divereted.

Cost is relative to what you can build yourself and how much you must rely upon hired labor/expertise.

I know of small farmers that actually have pump-storage systems set up, which maximizes their yield of power from their water sources. They tend to use the grid for the off-peak hours to run the pumps. Some sell back to the utility company so the pump hours are a wash.


-A

[Oneshot]

I actually have a very nice pond site that is about 1 acre. So I'm planning on damming it in the future. Of coarse I will concetrait all my funds in the home first.

[greenthumb]

One thing to consider is whether the stream is able to maintain constant flow even in dry years. We've been in a drought this year and a lot of local ponds and lakes are so low they aren't even releasing water at all.

[Oneshot]

It ran all this summer. We were not in a drought year. Not sure what it will do then.

[ponyboy]

This sounds promising.

Waterwheel invention promises cheap electricity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=425665&in_page_id=1965

[Bronco]

ponyboy it's fun to see you push Rod's key board :P :twisted:

[ponyboy]

:twisted: Muuhahahah (evil laugh) :twisted:

:lol: Heh, I'm not trying to do it on purpose. I just like seeing all the new options in alternative power. Even if some of their claims are a little hard to swallow.

[rreidnauer]

I just feel bad when I cut down these manufacture's claims, because it looks like I'm putting down every message ponyboy posts. (NOT my intention)

Such the Grumpy Gus, I am. :D

But on the bright side, I really do like micro-hydro generation if one is lucky enough to have a year round streamflow that meets requirements. You can get by with a pretty small generator when your making power 24/7/365.

[ponyboy]

:D Don't feel bad Rod! I like the way you dissect the manufactures claims. I never had the feeling that you were putting down my posts. :)

[nobleknight]

01-03-07

Each of you guys should put your heads together, and comprise a list that all members can sink their teeth into. Ponyboy finds the wildest new things I would never think of. Rod seems to be able to see through the malarky.

I'm sure lots of us would love to be able to order and plan our new homes with this knowledge. The two of you could research and compare notes. In much the same way consumer reports used to be.

I know I would not want to waste my money on useless junk. Papa Joe is also very knowledgeable. Maybe you could recruit him. You guys could discuss a subject unknown to us, and post your well thought out findings.

The results could be then posted to the members section. Your results would benefit the entire group.

Tom
nobleknight
class 01-15-05

[ponyboy]

Here's the patent to that last water wheel I posted.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006082403&F=0

[adubar]

I'd have to see it operate. From the drawings I don't see how it actually uses more of the energy than some other wheel/track sytstems. I'd hate to have to defend his patent! I don't think there is much there.

for my money, I'd just get one of the low head impeller/turbine systems that have been around for the past 30 years.

Like Rod, I would rather use a pipe than an open spillway.

The project then becomes more of a plumbing one than civil engineering.


-A

P.S. I think Rod and Ponyboy should be given their own cable tv show for the owner-builder--- along the lines of the "Mythbusters" show that is currently running.

I think we'd get a great amount of information and a lot of amusement!!!!