Solar Power for dummies...off grid hook up.

[Timber]

http://tinhatranch.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-diy-off-grid-solar-power/

Supposed to be a good video...someone...maybe Rod can verify it...I dunno...was told was good...thought I would share.

Simple...basic solar theory...its about charging...not anything else

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15XMyuq4rP4

[Timber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjGrpbnJ4fY
Another good video...control panel

Solar..hillbilly style
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzdCA0PxRY

[StressMan79]

Didn't like the tin hat vid. They interchanged power units with energy units.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner

[StressMan79]

Liked the hillbilly vid. That's exactly how I (would) do it.

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[Timber]

Well I watched them all..the Tin Hat has some great information..like where to place your solar panels...the roof might not be your best bet.

Esp. In the winter (if you get lots of snow) or if your roof is older.

I called the other one hillbilly because of all the exposed wires running outside. Must be Arkansas eh?

[rreidnauer]

Who you callin' hillbilly?

http://i1169.photobucket.com/albums/r519/Liberty_Acres/IMG_20150519_090707.jpg

[Timber]

Didn't like the tin hat vid. They interchanged power units with energy units.

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Forum Runner
Can you expound your complaint...I don't know what you excatly mean.

[loghousenut]

Peter doesn't know what he means either... he's an engineer.

[Timber]

And I guess that's why your in the backwoods.

I post Solar power for dummies and I get the top bunch?

[donjuedo]

Can you expound your complaint...I don't know what you excatly mean.

I can't speak for StressMan, but I think the careless use of power and energy in place of each other takes away from credibility of someone explaining the topic, because power and energy are different things.

Energy: Think of the gasoline in your tank. It's useful, and you can use it quickly or slowly, as you like. Eventually, you'll use it up and have to get more.
Power: Think of the horsepower of your engine. It's a capability. It's how fast the engine can deliver energy. It's not a quantity you buy and use up, and go buy more of.

See how they're different?

In a solar set up, power is measured in watts or kilowatts. It's how fast you're burning energy, or making it. Energy is usually measured in kilowatt-hours, and is the amount of energy made when producing a kilowatt for an hour. Since a kilowatt is 1,000 watts, a kilowatt-hour is the same energy as producing one watt for a thousand hours.

I have a vague recollection that the tin hat video guy said something about kilowatts produced in a day, which makes no more sense than horsepower in a day. He probably meant kilowatt-hours in a day.

[rreidnauer]

Technically, one *could* express energy as kilowatt-days, and be correct. It just isn't a good way to express it due to the time scale.

Just sayin' cuz it's fun to be a pita.

[StressMan79]

Indeed, I think it is the same as "my grill puts out 100,000btu." No it doesn't! Btu is a unit of energy. They mean "btu/hr." Misuse has been so rampant that it has become accepted practice.

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[loghousenut]

Misuse has been so rampant that it has become accepted practice.


Now that it is acceptable to interchange power and energy, I will commit a comment about Tin Hat and his video. I think he did a fairly professional outline for an amateur. It didn't appear that his target audience would be MIT students, but rather a bunch of normal burger flippers and truck drivers who wanted to know if they were too stupid to figure out solar power (energy).

Over the years I have pieced together two solar energy (power) setups and several microhydroelectric systems, and it all seemed to happen with nothing more than hippie/farmer/trucker engineering skills on my part. This technology has made that possible. A person could still get in over her/his head and make a mess of things, but I think it is totally reasonable to think that a normal ole non-metric bumpkin can go off-grid without candles and kerosene. It IS rocket science but seems to be a technology that can be exploited, just like it is possible for a shade tree mechanic to muddle though OBD II and keep the old Dodge on the road.

I watched the whole Tin Hat video and caught a few parts that I would have worded differently, but that happens all the time with me. I just wish I could learn to word differently some of the carp that comes out of my mouth. I think I need an editor.

Didn't really like the hippie video... Too close to home.



PS... Not meaning to offend the engineers here. I admire that thought process which you possess and I never will. Just pointing out that some of us seem to be able to make a life of it all even if we can't figure out what you folks is talking about.

I also admire folks who speak Canadian, even though I can't understand them.

(PLEASE DO NOT READ THAT LAST LINE)

[donjuedo]

Technically, one *could* express energy as kilowatt-days, and be correct. It just isn't a good way to express it due to the time scale.

Just sayin' cuz it's fun to be a pita.

:-D


Peter

[thoner7]

Is a smaller scale off gride system any more practical than a large one?

If I am on well water and the power goes out- I have no water. If I have a wood boiler and have no power I have no heat. Would having a small sstem that could power the above and maybe an LED bulb or two be cost effective?

[rreidnauer]

Well, strictly for emergency backup power, a large UPS system would make more sense, instead of a standby solar system.

[rawson]

Is a smaller scale off gride system any more practical than a large one?

If I am on well water and the power goes out- I have no water. If I have a wood boiler and have no power I have no heat. Would having a small sstem that could power the above and maybe an LED bulb or two be cost effective?


Pumping into a potable water storage tank is a good backup for drinking water. The Well I have pumps into a 3,000 gallon tank then a psi pump off of the tank if power is out or other failures occur you can always fill a bucket from the tank . Also with this setup the Well pump does not cycle on/off as much.

[thoner7]

how long is a UPS good for?

Even a small permanent generator would be 2-3 grand.

[edkemper]

Only if you wanted to power up every electrical appliance you have. A much smaller ginny for an emergency is enough. Well under a grand.

[rreidnauer]

Would depend greatly on how big a UPS you get and how much you are running on it, but if you don't mind a power disruption until a generator starts up, it's probably most cost effective way to go. Just be careful on rated/surge watt ratings. They are usually inflated from reality. I have a 3250w that has a hard time even running my septic pump, and usually isn't able to start my table saw, and thats even after running it through a 5kva transformer to take advantage of the full phase of the genny.

Cripes, last job I was at, we had three big UPS units lying around unused. (I disposed of 11,000 pounds of batteries from two of them) I think two were 80kva and one a 160kva. Probably could find one for free somewhere, and install fresh batteries.

[Timberwolf]

I also admire folks who speak Canadian, even though I can't understand them.

(PLEASE DO NOT READ THAT LAST LINE)


Hey! I resemble that remark eh!

[Timber]

My friend does solar systems...has been for several years. So i asked him about what he thought was the best panels. He said Solar World...great prices made in the US ..i think he said out of Oregon. Next panel he said was LG...the best maybe but 33% more$$$

He told me a good tax write off would be to do a garage after build...install a solar system and you can write off 33% off the entire project. (Check with your tax man first);)

[donjuedo]

I can't find prices on their site. Any idea how many dollars per watt for panels alone?

The federal government charges an import duty to raise prices to benefit US makers, but prices are falling anyway. Current panel market ($/watt):

$1+ is common
$0.80 is a nice discount, not hard to get
$0.50 can be had with a little patience
$0.25 is what I got with plenty of patience last October.

[donjuedo]

Also, this year's federal tax credit for solar systems is 30%, and for '17, '18, and '19. After that, it reduces significantly until it is expired. (maybe 3 years with some tax credit < 30%, but don't quote me on that one).

Labor is included in the system cost, so the tax credit covers that, too. Shipping is unstated, as far as I can find. I made an offer in one deal (4 pure sine wave inverters totaling just under $6,000), and free shipping was part of it. My offer was accepted, so that built-in shipping will definitely be applicable for the tax credit.

Structures whose purpose is to hold solar panels (or house batteries, etc.) count, too. Structures whose primary use is something else are excluded. They thought of that garage already. :-D

And remember, it's a tax credit, not a deduction. A deduction only reduces taxable income, and benefit trickles down to the bottom line. A tax credit is directly subtracted from your tax bill, a great thing.

[rreidnauer]

And remember, it's a tax credit, not a deduction. A deduction only reduces taxable income, and benefit trickles down to the bottom line. A tax credit is directly subtracted from your tax bill, a great thing.
I often wondered about this. I need to buy my whole-house inverters before that expires.

[Timber]

My friend mostly does direct connect..not off grid...he says no maintenace. I am asking about the cost per watt-panel. Ill post it when i find out.

[donjuedo]

Good details here:

http://www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits

[donjuedo]

While you're thinking about solar, it might be good to pay attention to wind (comparatively cheap). I have noticed that when it's most clear and sunny, the wind is low. But when overcast, wind generally picks up. So a wind turbine can complement solar quite well. It's not as tight a fit as jigsaw puzzle pieces, but useful anyway.

I made a quick chart using my brother's solar power history, from the Enphase site. I wanted to see how much my planned battery bank would drain, given his real world production and my average daily consumption. I looked at last month and December before that, plus July, just for fun. In Summer, the battery would be "flat-lined" full the whole time. In Winter, the bank would drain noticeably, but never hit empty.

That was great to see, because it told me I could cut my battery bank in half from what I had planned, and only hit empty a few days a year. That's when I'd be running a generator to avoid empty, of course, and that's assuming no wind power (so far). With my new plan, I'm going to save a huge amount on batteries, the most expensive part of an off grid solar energy system.

[Timber]

Ok solar world $4.75 per watt...installed with plans and permits on standard roof. Ground mounts slighly more. Thats in CA. so im sure its beatable

[edkemper]

What would he sell per watt without installation?

[Timber]

I asked but no answer
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/brands/solarworld
Looks like Solar Worlds main location is Germany. They have been making panels since 1988.

[Timberwolf]

So I have a question for all the energy guru's amongst ya'll (frikin' 'merican speak).

Given where i live, there's a fair number of low sun days. A generator is a given.

Fuel costs aside, is there a downside to a small genset to charge a battery bank regularly (thinking possibly even a woodgas system) and foregoing solar, except for the summer time when plenty of sunlight is available?

I've run camps strictly on a generator for power, but without batteries it seems like such a waste, so much unused energy when the unit is running without any load/demand.

[StressMan79]

So I have a question for all the energy guru's amongst ya'll (frikin' 'merican speak).

Given where i live, there's a fair number of low sun days. A generator is a given.

Fuel costs aside, is there a downside to a small genset to charge a battery bank regularly (thinking possibly even a woodgas system) and foregoing solar, except for the summer time when plenty of sunlight is available?

I've run camps strictly on a generator for power, but without batteries it seems like such a waste, so much unused energy when the unit is running without any load/demand.

In college I optimized a solar system for Iowa city. Turned out that you were ahead
Running a generator, w/o any panels (or batteries) Panels have gotten a lot cheaper, batteries are about the same.

Sent from my VS986 using Forum Runner

[rreidnauer]

I actually run a generator a few hours daily, since my battery capacity is small on my temporary setup. Cost about $20 a week to run. It's a little on the big side, at 3250 watts, to handle the sewer pump if it needs to run. One of those 1800 watt Honda or Suzuki inverter generators would be way, way more fuel efficient. (and barely hear it when it is running)

[Timberwolf]

Even At $20/week that's still less than what i pay for hydro every month!

[sdart]

We have done that for over 20 years in our "other" house. Depending on how many people are here and charging their laptops, etc. we run the generator every other day or every third day for a couple of hours in the evening to charge up the (large) battery bank. It's a diesel generator and diesel is cheap where we are. Downsides are the noise and having to go out there and turn it on and off, fill up the tank... and the danger that if we are not here and someone else is using the house, they will run the batteries down too far. People who are not used to being off the grid have no conception of how much energy they are using. We're in the process of finally converting to solar, but this is a very sunny area and it makes the most sense. In the past we have only had one panel to top up the batteries when we are gone.

[Timberwolf]

Now, here's a loaded question, what is a good target (realistic) monthly power consumption amount? 500Kwh? 1000Kwh? I know this is a hugely variable number. I'd like to get an idea based on current on-grid consumption, vs what can be produced between solar and generator supplement.

[loghousenut]

We have done that for over 20 years in our "other" house. Depending on how many people are here and charging their laptops, etc. we run the generator every other day or every third day for a couple of hours in the evening to charge up the (large) battery bank. It's a diesel generator and diesel is cheap where we are. Downsides are the noise and having to go out there and turn it on and off, fill up the tank... and the danger that if we are not here and someone else is using the house, they will run the batteries down too far. People who are not used to being off the grid have no conception of how much energy they are using. We're in the process of finally converting to solar, but this is a very sunny area and it makes the most sense. In the past we have only had one panel to top up the batteries when we are gone.



Our solution, in the old days, was a Honda 600w generator. Whisper quiet. It would run 4-1/2 hours on 1/2 gallon of gas (7.25 kg) and we'd fire it up to watch a movie tape and let it charge batteries til it ran out of gas.

We had a big generator for washing clothes or running the table saw.

[donjuedo]

Now, here's a loaded question, what is a good target (realistic) monthly power consumption amount? 500Kwh? 1000Kwh? I know this is a hugely variable number. I'd like to get an idea based on current on-grid consumption, vs what can be produced between solar and generator supplement.

You're right about the disclaimers.

I (often) average 10 KWH per day, so times 30, that's 300 KWH per month.

Now for my qualifiers:
1 guy
No AC
No heat (that's gas now)
Most light bulbs are LED (bought cheap, but good light)

So 500 KWH per person is generous, under the same conditions as me.

Have you checked you hydro bill? It should show you what you're paying for. Do be careful about meter readings. Numbers on the meter are often not KWH, but get multiplied by a "multiplier" (a scale factor) to tell you KWH. Also, you might get distracted by some of the billing figures. Specifically, in the US, many (all?) electric companies are now charging separately for energy and for distribution. This lowers the amount they pay for energy when a homeowner sells back, but it can also complicate the study of that bill. Just look for the KWH and ignore the rest of that distraction. You'll see what you're actually using already, with loads you already know.

Also, it's good to get to know specifics on those loads. I'd recommend a Kill-A-Watt meter, or a competitor with better display viewing angle. It can tell you power in use right now, and total energy used since power on. You could plug it into your fridge outlet, and your fridge into the meter, and measure over the course of a week or month, or however long you like. I'd check the washer and dryer, too.

[Timberwolf]

You're right about the disclaimers.

I (often) average 10 KWH per day, so times 30, that's 300 KWH per month.

Now for my qualifiers:
1 guy
No AC
No heat (that's gas now)
Most light bulbs are LED (bought cheap, but good light)

So 500 KWH per person is generous, under the same conditions as me.

Have you checked you hydro bill? It should show you what you're paying for. Do be careful about meter readings. Numbers on the meter are often not KWH, but get multiplied by a "multiplier" (a scale factor) to tell you KWH. Also, you might get distracted by some of the billing figures. Specifically, in the US, many (all?) electric companies are now charging separately for energy and for distribution. This lowers the amount they pay for energy when a homeowner sells back, but it can also complicate the study of that bill. Just look for the KWH and ignore the rest of that distraction. You'll see what you're actually using already, with loads you already know.

Also, it's good to get to know specifics on those loads. I'd recommend a Kill-A-Watt meter, or a competitor with better display viewing angle. It can tell you power in use right now, and total energy used since power on. You could plug it into your fridge outlet, and your fridge into the meter, and measure over the course of a week or month, or however long you like. I'd check the washer and dryer, too.

Oh trust me, as an Ontarian, I've been studying my electric bill since i've been receiving one. And i own a kill-a-watt.

2 months of usage = 1800Kwh.

Cost of electricity: $196.15
Delivery: $126.86
Regulatory charges: $12.25
Debit retirement charge: $0.00 (somehow qualified for an exemption this month, normally about $13)
Tax: $43.58

Total: $378.84

[donjuedo]

Ouch.
Where is it all going?
How many people?

[rreidnauer]

That's not really bad at all. Thats about 1.25kw average, for a grid tied home, probably about normal

[LowKey]

Oh trust me, as an Ontarian, I've been studying my electric bill since i've been receiving one. And i own a kill-a-watt.

2 months of usage = 1800Kwh.

Cost of electricity: $196.15
Delivery: $126.86
Regulatory charges: $12.25
Debit retirement charge: $0.00 (somehow qualified for an exemption this month, normally about $13)
Tax: $43.58

Total: $378.84
https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth% 3Fid%3DOIP.M54ff8c20460c812a386e2f59844a8965o0%26p id%3D15.1%26f%3D1&sp=4380c9351789028e65e16b6378be2644

I....I don't know what to say.....for the love of all that is holy move somewhere where you can roll your own juice and escape that extortion racket!!! You're behind enemy lines, dammit!

[Timberwolf]

Thanks to no term limit, and institutionalized (read big city and union) voting, we now have the distinction of having the single largest debt of ANY state in the free world.

$300,000,000,000 (yup BILLION) for a population of 13.6 million.

No signs of stopping, in fact all signs point to MOAR MOAR MOAR govt excess and spending and waste.

[rreidnauer]

Oh, come on. Everybody's doing it. It's the cool thing to do. Like teenage drinking and driving. How can that be a bad thing?

[Timberwolf]

Cap and trade (aka carbon tax) is the next big thing on it's way. Right on the heals of having just finished selling off the last of the country's gold reserves.

[Timber]

Oh trust me, as an Ontarian, I've been studying my electric bill since i've been receiving one. And i own a kill-a-watt.

2 months of usage = 1800Kwh.

Cost of electricity: $196.15
Delivery: $126.86
Regulatory charges: $12.25
Debit retirement charge: $0.00 (somehow qualified for an exemption this month, normally about $13)
Tax: $43.58

Total: $378.84

Wow...delivery charge...is that pizza or fries?

[Timberwolf]

I believe that is for lube.

[wannabuild]

Oh come on Timberwolf, I thought it was all roses out in Ontario land.
How come the folks out there keep voting them Lieberals in...
Sorry..

[rreidnauer]

Wow...delivery charge...is that pizza or fries?
Transmission (delivery) and connection fees are pretty much the norm in the States. Sad part is, even if you don't use any power at all, you still get hit with those charges every month.

[edkemper]

Cap and trade (aka carbon tax) is the next big thing on it's way. Right on the heals of having just finished selling off the last of the country's gold reserves.

Sorry, but I have to laugh, well maybe snicker. Most of us, I'll bet, don't have a lot of money in gold. Far less in the younger generations. Mostly because over the last 35 years, all the jobs got trickled down to other countries. However, admittedly, those other countries are much better off.

[rreidnauer]

In the event of an EOTW scenario, gold is worthless anyhow. You can't eat it. You can't warm yourself with it. Heck, unless it's 24 carat, it doesn't even make for good bullets.

Making one as self-sufficient as possible is where true investment needs to be placed.

If you feel you still need a commodity for trading, then things like cigarettes, ammunition, (and especially primers) and alcohol will be much more attractive to someone, than a heavy lump of metal.

[LowKey]

In the event of an EOTW scenario, gold is worthless anyhow. You can't eat it. You can't warm yourself with it. Heck, unless it's 24 carat, it doesn't even make for good bullets.

Making one as self-sufficient as possible is where true investment needs to be placed.

If you feel you still need a commodity for trading, then things like cigarettes, ammunition, (and especially primers) and alcohol will be much more attractive to someone, than a heavy lump of metal.

They might find the ammo desirable, but I suggest not using it as a trade good. Ditto for anything else easily used against you.

Copper tubing might fetch a good price. Hand tools. Nails.

Better yet, set yourself up with a machine shop/blacksmiths shop.... they supply the metal.

Also....books.

[donjuedo]

I can't find prices on their site. Any idea how many dollars per watt for panels alone?

The federal government charges an import duty to raise prices to benefit US makers, but prices are falling anyway. Current panel market ($/watt):

$1+ is common
$0.80 is a nice discount, not hard to get
$0.50 can be had with a little patience
$0.25 is what I got with plenty of patience last October.

Today's email from SunElec.com brought another listing for Grade B panels (like I got), for 28 cents per watt. It is not advertised on their home page, though. If anyone is interested, I can provide more info.


Peter