To Loft or not to loft?

[iffy]

We are empty nesters and are getting ready to build our log home. We have our own plan that fits well on our land. We like swedish cope, and our plan is to purchase random length logs with a specified number of saddle notches.
We have 2 plans. First one is main house, 30 x 36, with 16 x 24 ell off one end for bedroom/bath. Open loft over half of main house, open great room and dining room. Loft will have no partitions, just overflow area for grandkids. Fold away beds or futons. Main house roof is 9/12 or 10/12 so loft is useable. Second plan is same size, but with 6/12 pitch and loft area is now an attic for storage. Walk out basement with guest bedrooms and rec area for both plans.
We are in Kansas, so must have air conditioning, which means central hvac. Looking seriously at geothermal with a heat pump, and gas fireplace auxiliary. We really want a loft, but not at the expense of horrendous heating bills. In a few years we will be on fixed income, so need to watch our recurring bills.
Anybody out there with experience and/or advice? Thanks.

[adubar]

Firstly, I would urge you to take the log building course that the association offers. It will answer your questions and many more you may or may not have thought of yet. However, I understand that it is not always practical for persons to make the journey out here to the Pacific Northwest.
With that in mind, I'll put in a few words about heating and cooling concerns. If you have already made up your mind on the actual design of the home (footprint, wall sizes, dimensions, & etc.) then you are limited to the heating and cooling characteristics of the design you have settled upon, regardless if you use the upper story for a loft or unheated storage. Deciding to limit the living space is usually a reaction to a poor design from an energy standpoint.

A well planed and energy efficient home can have a loft. In fact, in some designs lofts are preferred due to natural air currents (natural convection) afforded by the structure's design, which moves heat and/or cooling air for free!

If you have had the house designed by an architect, you might enquire about the heating and cooling characteristics of their design. If you are designing the house yourself, you might want to reference books on efficient home design--be prepared to not be too wed to your current design.


One thing to keep in mind is that the more intricate your home design the more engergy inneficient if will mostly likely be. This is not always the case, however, simple proven efficient designs are easier to build and cheaper to maintain in the long run.


--Regards

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Don't want to sound like a broken record, but adubar is right.
So many questions and so many dollars can be saved by taking
the class. Your needs and design ideas are addressed in the
class and I can see where you could save a substancial amount
of money.
Way back when I took the class Skip told a story of a man who
was ready to build and then for some reason called about the
class. Skip said to fly out first class, stay in the finest hotels,
and only eat at the finest restaurants. If you don't think the
class was worth the trouble I will pay for all your expenses.
Long story short, the man and his wife took the class and were
thrilled with all the money and the heartache Skip had saved him.
If I remember right I believe back then the amount was something
like $60,000.

Yes, the class is expensive, but really, only expensive if you are
just curious and then never use the information. I am so greatful
to Skip's forfathers for passing along this otherwise lost information,
and to Skip and then Ellsworth and Steve for keeping the information
from being lost.

The cash savings are only the tip of the iceberg of what the class
and the association have done for me. My savings will be at least
$150,000. It's like I have said in the past; "Hey, triple the price of
the class and people will still be getting the bargain of a lifetime!"

I too will soon be an empty nester. I'm using the stock plans with
a few modifications and we should do just fine. We'll have a loft,
but wide stairs so when the day comes when we can no longer
climb the stairs we can install a lift chair and still have room to
walk up to the loft. Our weather is -40F to 105F, and the design
should greatly help cool the house in the summer, and the heating
costs should be minimal.

Just my opinion and your mileage may of course vary.

-Rick

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Guess I should have mentioned this....

When (if?) you take the class, stay out of the kitchen! I
have seen people in the kitchen talking, and drinking coffee
when critical construction details were being taught. The
best advice I can give is sit still, pay attention, write down
you questions (most will be answered during the teaching),
take a lot of notes (think I had 23 pages) and look at the
construction details of the house. The class is now offered
with a workbook so you will be writing a lot less than I did.

My advice is that before a person takes the class:

*don't worry about drawing plans. Guarantee they will change.
*Don't make a model. That too will change.

During the class:

*Listen, listen, listen!
*Pay attention
*ask questions after the class. Hey, suck their brains dry!
*Observe! Look at the rafters, look at the girders, look at
everything!
*Remember, the methods and recommendations being
taught are not the only way to build, but it is the easiest
way with the least headaches. Build as taught, don't
reinvent the wheel and you will be much happier in the end.

Just my miscellanous ramblings....

-Rick

[sparky]

Just my miscellanous ramblings....

I think not! Concise, to the point and right on target :!:
Great advice Rick.

[RockEngineer]

The proper use of fans and placement of air returns if you are using central air can be made efficient with a loft.

The largest loss of heat in log homes is by having too many air leaks not the heat loss through the logs. All miscellaneous openings need to be sealed. A properly built log home will qualify as a "super good sense" home and be very energy efficient. Before you pick a log system or builder talk to some people who have used that log system or builder and find out how energy efficient their houses are. Many of the energy loss problems are hard to fix after the fact. They are part of the system. Each builder or building system has their own methods of solving the problems. Some work much better than others but there are way to many variations to address here. The LHBAs butt and pass system with chinking and tightly packed insulation between the logs can be sealed very tight and be energy efficient. If you don't like chinking there are other efficient systems out there if you take the time to check them out.

I personally like the idea of the loft as a place for guests and grandkids. :lol:

[JeffandSara]

Hi, "Iffy"--

We built a two-and-a-half story house in a hot summer, cool/cold winter area of California. Our home is easy to heat and cool (or it was once we got the logs, joists/ wood flooring initially heated up the first winter from the about 32 degrees it had been) without central heat/cooling.

Some of that is because we have fairly large logs (up to 24" on the butt ends) which provide beneficial thermal mass, and some is because of our site selection and passive solar considerations (protection with trees and wide overhangs from hottest summer sun, good exposures in living/open areas for southern winter sun, etc.) I believe some of the efficiency is also because our floors/ceilings are 2'x6' tongue and groove in all areas except the entry areas and the bathrooms, so that there's less compartmentalization of inside air. A really well-insulated roof is also a big help in keeping heating/cooling costs down, of course.

However, we also installed ceiling fans in each bedroom, the main living area, the loft, and one large ceiling fan at the top of the ceiling, hanging off the ridgepole, over where the floor plan is open from the entry area on the first floor all the way to the peak of the ceiling. That one fan over the open area is the one we use most. It's great in the winter to recirculate both the warmth from the southern windows and the heat from the single big woodstove on the ground floor that heats our entire house. And in the summer, it helps to average out the loft and other floor temperatures. We are fortunate because our site gives us a good breeze to the loft windows, too, but even without that breeze, I think that we wouldn't have too much trouble with summer heat between the windows and fans up there.

We've found with good "fan management"... knowing when and how long to run our ceiling fans, we can run them for minimum time and get very good results. We don't have quite the extremes you do where you are, of course, but it's been in the teens this month, and there's no problem keeping the house comfortable.

Oh, I also highly recommend in cold or hot weather, especially in a log house, a "cold room" concept with a closeable door. It's amazing how much cold AND heat I can keep out of the living areas of the house if I just close our mudroom door (the one we go in and out of most anyway.)

I'm with Richard, by the way... seems like a loft for living space is a lovely idea. I know that our loft is a very popular spot in our house. Seems like a shame to have that potentially fun space only for storage. We actually put "attics" on both sides of our loft in the areas too short to stand up in, and they're very handy.

Good luck to you with your building project!

Sara :D