Hydro power from small streams?

[hammerhead 67]

There is a year round creek/stream on the back side of the property we hope to build on.

Its a long way from the build site but we could use a power supply on that end of the property to run irrigation pumps.

Has anyone seen a small/affordable hydro system that would work on a creek/stream to generate enough juice to run an irrigation pump?

Thanks.

[BoFuller]

I haven't spent too much time on it since we have no creeks or streams, but I heard it can be pretty economical. I believe the return is way better than solar or wind.

[StressMan79]

streams have the advantage of not needing it to be sunny or windy to operate if you are lucky enough to have a creek with enough drop, then USE IT. You can live pretty much like you do now off the grid with a 4" PVC and a Pelton Turbine (provided ~20' of fall). You can buy some 1/0 gauge wire and bring in split phase 220, and run your house off of it, pretty cheaply (I estimate ~5-10k) for the whole setup. I'd combine some solar with that and crank up the toaster/blow dryer/home theatre.

I don't have that option... :(

[Mosseyme]

We are that lucky. We plan to do a hydro system of some sort. We have 2,000 feet of mountain stream running the entire length of the valley of our place. We just have to figure where to take the water out and back in to get the most fall in the least distance. Of course that will naturally be at the waterfalls so an old fashion water wheel would be nice to look at but not so practical. A friends says he can make it work but I'm not really convinced that we won't need more that that. Since there will be 3 cabins at some distance from each other we may need to each have our own setup at the cabin and have battery banks on wheels to park in a charge station close to where the power is being generated or some such set up. I don't know if sharing the generator and charging separate battery banks would be feasible or not. A lot of trouble I'm sure, probably better to figure something else out. There will be at least 1200' between the highest cabin and the lowest cabin. All will be within a 100' of the creek. If we put the generator station in the middle it would be 500'-600' to the other two cabins to run electric line if we tried to just wire it and I know you lose a lot with distance so I just don't know which is best. We might be the only full time residents so I'm thinking we put it close to us and let the others figure out how to get some to them. Ha.

[loghousenut]

We lived off of a small pelton wheel for years. It was great! You'll need this to start and go from there.

http://homepower.com/home/

Lots to learn. There is power to be gotten from flowing, nearly level, water (low head hydro) and there is power to be gotten from falling water (high head hydro). Lots of fall can use a small pelton wheel to make a lot of cheap power.

You'll also need to consider your State's water rights laws and permitting.

[jrdavis]

<cut>...that will naturally be at the waterfalls so an old fashion water wheel would be nice to look at but not so practical. A friends says he can make it work but I'm not really convinced that we won't need more that that.

Mosseyme --
You can look at a Tesla wheel -- basically looks like a computer harddrive turned sideways.
Tesla built his first one around age 6-7, I think. Less friction and water restriction.
go for it... then let us know :)
JD

[Mosseyme]

Since the water will go come out and back in all several hundred feet within our property bounderys do water rights and usage really come into it?

[lilbluehonda]

Water Wheel here's the spot this guy's got it figured out
http://www.waterwheelplace.com/main.html

[exsailor]

The biggest issues concerning water rights and usage involve depriving someone downstream of water, or flooding caused by a dam you built rupturing. Dams are looked at closely for that reason and often require all sorts of legal hoops to jump through.

[Mosseyme]

lilbluehonda
thanks for the link. very interesting, I'll keep that on file.

[Will Dye]

You might want to join the yahoo microhydro group. The guru on there is a guy that goes by Nando and he really knows his stuff. The first thing they are going to tell you is that you need to know your head and flow. Head is the drop in feet from where you plan on starting your water collecting pipe (penstock) to where it will be used to spin the turbine. Flow is simply the volume of water that flows through your streambed in a given amount of time. There are some really smart guys on there and I've seen them suggest all kinds of things to solve problems I've never dreamed of. From what I know of your situation I think an A/C setup might be the way to go for you. You can't really even begin to come up with ideas though without knowing your head and flow.

[Christofori]

We are that lucky. We plan to do a hydro system of some sort. We have 2,000 feet of mountain stream running the entire length of the valley of our place.

With a 2,000' drop you could put in 3 separate intakes, generators and return flows.

With a 400' head on the drop, you could use a small individual turbine and generator near to each homestead, with a bypass valve, for maintenance or repair of the turbine and generator, this could also be used to reduce the system if you are not resident, but be back up to full power with the turn of a valve.

2,000' / 400 would give the ability to run a couple of additional systems.

[spiralsands]

The biggest issues concerning water rights and usage involve depriving someone downstream of water, or flooding caused by a dam you built rupturing. Dams are looked at closely for that reason and often require all sorts of legal hoops to jump through.

True. I have 2 streams that the state rep told me were both unregulated but if I did anything to either of them, like built a bridge over or dredged them to fix the banks, someone downsteam watering his cows might notice sediment or a change in flow rate. I might have complaints on my hands.

Frances

[exsailor]

I have often thought of hydro power. I have considered a floating generation platform. That would eliminate damming the stream. I would use an undershot paddle wheel constructed using bycicle wheels. Light construction coupled with commonly availabe materials that free turn with little resistance. The only problems with this that I can see are debris issues and getting enough RPM to effectively turn a permanent magnet dc motor for power generation. Where you have fall but not enough water you could build a holding pond then slowly fill it so that downstream flow wouldn't be impacted a great deal. Once the pond is filled then open it to the water source. You could probably drive a small pelton wheel. You would still have to monitor water flow in the stream to keep form impacting down stream. A silt fence or a couple in series in the water might keep downstream neighbors from complaining about sediment coming from any bank modification, pond building or bridges building. Mind you all this is brain storming from reading and wild mental meandering. I don't have a streeam availalble to test any of this.

[rreidnauer]

With a 2,000' drop you could put in 3 separate intakes, generators and return flows.

With a 400' head on the drop, you could use a small individual turbine and generator near to each homestead, with a bypass valve, for maintenance or repair of the turbine and generator, this could also be used to reduce the system if you are not resident, but be back up to full power with the turn of a valve.

2,000' / 400 would give the ability to run a couple of additional systems.

I don't believe she meant a 2000' drop. Rather, 2000' of stream transiting across her property.

[rckclmbr428]

Ive been thinking about a small steam powered generator lately, alot of people around here run outdoor woodstoves all year, I reckon it would be easy to create steam off of it.

[rreidnauer]

Stick to building houses! Those types of boilers don't boil water, and if you're even considering modifying for steam, DON'T! You'd be messing with a whole new animal, and it don't play nice if you screw up. Super-heated water is incredibly dangerous if a homebuilt/modified boiler looses containment.

[rckclmbr428]

I'm not even close to fooling with it, just thinking theres got to be a way to do it, my brother runs a nuclear reactor, he said its possible, I've even seen some small ones for sell online. I just had the thought driving home late last night.

[spiralsands]

Stick to building houses! Those types of boilers don't boil water, and if you're even considering modifying for steam, DON'T! You'd be messing with a whole new animal, and it don't play nice if you screw up. Super-heated water is incredibly dangerous if a homebuilt/modified boiler looses containment.

Good advice Rod. I worked in a high pressure, high temperature steam generator power plant when I was in the military. Dangerous stuff!

[edkemper]

A friend was killed by a steam accident at our now closed Nuclear Power Plant. Even with experts and professionals, it can be dangerous.

[Grey Knight NFO]

There is a year round creek/stream on the back side of the property we hope to build on.

Its a long way from the build site but we could use a power supply on that end of the property to run irrigation pumps.

Has anyone seen a small/affordable hydro system that would work on a creek/stream to generate enough juice to run an irrigation pump?

Thanks.

The easiest way to reduce electrical losses between the generator and your build sites is to use high voltage AC. This also allows for smaller gauge wires, because the current is minimized. Use a regulated AC generator on the hydro, send it through a transformer to up the voltage and then use another transformer at the house to drop the voltage to 220 or 110 as needed. The beauty of using HV is that the power (Volt-Amps), is higher with less current, reducing the effect of resistive line losses. Furthermore, AC has inherently less line loss than does DC. (For more on that, refer to the Tesla vs Edison battle of the 1880s and 1890s.) Just be very careful with it, because electricity can kill. (Avoid high amperage lines, they are much more deadly than high voltage lines.) BTW, at 5kV, 0.11A delivers the same amount of power as 5 Amps at 110V. If your line from your generator has a resistance of 1 ohm per 100 feet, and you have 500 ft of line, at 5 amps, your loss will be (5 ohm)*(5 Amp)^2 = 125 Watts, whereas, on the same line, if you run it at 5kV, your loss will be (5 ohm)*(0.11 Amp)^2 = 0.0605 Watts. This is why they run million volt HV lines from commercial power generators. However, if you plan to use HV, you will need to keep it very well insulated to avoid shorting.

Steve

[donjuedo]

That's all true. What would be a good estimate of the losses in the two added transformers?


Peter

[project]

I can't comment on the loss through the transformers but I can tell you that they can get expensive. I have a cb radio that has a HV power supply and just the transformer cost over $1000. If you have a good water supply that runs year round then it could be worth it but might get expensive to experiment.

[StressMan79]

you can look up a lot of stuff here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer

looks like you will generally be running "no load" and then
Winding resistanceCurrent flowing through the windings causes resistive heating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistive_heating) of the conductors. At higher frequencies, skin effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect) and proximity effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_%28electromagnetism%29) create additional winding resistance and losses.
will dominate. There are lots of other loss mechanisms you can look at too.

but as a compromise, you may look at running @ 220 Vac, 50Hz, and use European stuff. half the current and losses, and no expensive transformers.

anyway, unless you live more than a mile from the Hydro, I would think that the losses would be small, in relation to the use.

Oh yeah, I'd run a battery bank, so you could have a 220 V or even 440 VAC input, running a 48 VDC bank. Run 1 amp through your charge controller into your batteries, then invert them to whatever you need at the house. That is 440W, or 3.4amps out your inverter @ 110VAC, that is not enough for a whole house, but on average, 440*24*.85=9 kw-hr/day. That would prolly do it, and you would have minimal losses (very small losses through any copper @ 1 amp).

-Peter