Vertical posts in an exterior log wall

[braewood]

My first post here. FYI I posted this same thread on the loghomeu.com forum. If that is bad manners I apologize in advance. I am in the design phase of my first log home. I'm working with an online log home designer. The logs are 8" thick, flat on inside/outside with chinking between logs and dovetail corners. The designer has proposed banking two 9' X 6' 6" windows and one 3' X 6' 8" door together on one wall (unfortunately the system will not allow me to post photos of this concept but I'd be happy to send/post photos if anyone is interested). Since spanning all three of these openings would amount to a 21ft span he has proposed two 8' X 8" vertical posts on either side of the door on order to reduce the span. These posts would go from floor to the top of the door frame. There would be a gap of about 3" between the top of the door frame and the log above to allow for settling. Jack screws would be mounted on the top of each post to control settling of logs and access would be via removable trim. Fiberglass insulation would fill the gap. The door would be installed as per conventional stick framing methods but with the additional settling space above. The windows would be installed using the key and buck system into the butt end of the logs plus allowance for settling above. The logs butting up to the post would be keyed into both butt end and vertical post. I am not concerned about the engineering aspect. I am concerned about the complexity of this detail, the potential air leakage ....in particular sealing the gap that contains the jack screws above the door.....and whether I should just forget the idea and separate windows from door with stacked logs. I would welcome all comments and suggestions.

[jrdavis]

Braewood,

Welcome and do some clicking around on this site.
You will find that we don't do gaps, jack screws or settling.
The Butt and Pass method that we use is way stronger as we use logs much larger than what you are engineering with.
I have my logs coming from the logger in 3 weeks and they are 24-26 inch logs. Untouched until I peel them and build with them.
we "pin them" with 1/2 inch rebar.
Check out this site and find the pic where he compares the 8" log you speak of and the 20 inch log he built with.
it will freak you out!!!. http://www.wileyloghomes.com/

Read all you can and we will help guide you too.
take the class and it could save you 10,000 or more even if you DON'T build it our way.

Best regards,

JD
also, check out out student homes.
http://www.loghomebuilders.org/image/tid/3

[loghousenut]

Braewood,
Nothing wrong with posting on the competition's forum They will most likely be more familiar with this specific question. The answer will always be "your engineer will specify".

Like JD siad, if you read up a bit, you'll see that we are proponents of a different style of log home building. If you're not completely commited to the system that you are considering, you might consider what we do here on this site. We are the folks who build our own log homes with our own hands. Give it some thought and get back to us. You'd be welcome here.

[braewood]

I have been following this forum for about 6 months and I'm familiar with the butt & pass system. I know this site is dedicated to that method. However, I ended up going with the dovetail system when I met a young log builder who agreed to build my 24' X 30' for $15,000......including the logs and milling up board & batten material for gable ends with left over material. He's only doing the log, beam and post portion of the house. I will still have to do chinking and stick frame floor, gables and roof. The reason I posted on this site was that I thought I might be able get feedback (regardless of which method I'm using) on this window & door combination that I would like to use. Even if I take out the settling issue it still requires some careful thought on how to assemble and I was hoping to tap into the knowledge this site seems to provide. If the recommendation is that I should discontinue posting, I will stop.

[Timberwolf]

Braewood,

As long as things don't get controversial, I doubt anyone would ask you to leave. ;)

Many people here have a wealth of building experience, and enjoy discussing alternative forms of log contruction other than the LHBA perscribed way. Heck, for 15K, you'd have been crazy not to take that offer!

Some pictures/drawing would be a big help in visualizing what you are planning. I'm sure then, more people will chime in.

Good luck.

[blane]

Braewood,

Like Timber says, for 15k I woulda done it too. Is that with him doing all the labour? It does seem like a complicated solution from your description tough. But you do need to break that span down for sure. You may be able to send a photo to someone willing to load it up here other than me, "technically challenged" and they could upload a picture so we could get our minds around your description better.

[rocklock]

braewood - Mike Braden
I really didn't follow all that stuff... cause I don't care about jacks, lowering roofs (it seems really dumb to me!!!) putting crush-able stuff above your doors and windows when its possible to build a wall that doesn't settle at all... but if you want to do that, knock your self out...

I recently (last year) went to a yard sale where a guy had a log home. He is a professional stair builder. He had to rebuild his stairs about 5 years ago, because of settling, that lead to his second floor... guess what, the log home was built 38 years ago... That's right 38 years ago... I have reported this before...

But if you want to build a wall that settles far be it from me to try to dissuade you... Try looking at this discussion...
http://www.loghomeu.com/forum/topics/non-settling-log-homes You might find me some where there...

Just a note about your post "Vertical posts in an exterior log wall"... Wood (logs, etc..) shrink around their center (about 10 %) but almost negligible at all in their length... Why do stick frame houses don't shrink, cause they employ wood that is almost all vertical... but they do shrink a little cause of the small amount of horizontal wood... So listen up... combining elements that shrink with elements that don't will cause problems!!! especially if those vertical elements are employed as structural elements tied into shrinking horizontal elements...

About your young guy that will do your shell for 15K with dove tailed logs... There is a devise (a tinplate) that can be used with a chain saw that will allow perfectly fitting dove tails. Then the wood shrinks....

Best of luck... I think you will need it... OBTW, if I had 15k for a shell and liked to build stuff, I would attend the next LHBA class that will change your life...

[Timberwolf]

Braewood,

I keep coming back to your post, since there have been some comments. I tried to draw out your senario on paper. I assume these windows and doors are going to be placed on the 30ft wall. That is a lot of glass and openings. Not sure how/where you are building (with or without permits and wet stamps) but I would definately run things by a local reputable engineer. I'm not an engineer, but your local codes may dictate (for very good reason) what you can and cannot get away with. While many, myself included do not agree with all the code rules, many are there to keep people safe so a house doesn't fall on them in their sleep.

If this is a non gable wall, and the roof is framed in a traditional manner, where the roof load is bearing completely on the outside walls, you are effectively removing most of the wall. You definately need the vertical members in place to break up the span, but you need to consider the attachment of the bottom of those posts to the foundation, as well as the tie in of the walls to the corners. I can just imagine these posts buckling out, taking the wall with them.

The other thing to consider is how windows are manufactured. Because the material is shipped in even lengths, to go from an 8ft window to a 9ft window effectively bumps the cost up to a 10ft or 12ft size. That is one of the reasons all the windows in my house fall into a specific size category. The savings are significant. I have 3, 8ft windows and an 8ft custom door in one wall of my log house. This is on the gable end, where there is much less load on the wall.

Addtionally, with the LHBA prescribed way, my non gable walls only hold 50% of the roof load (which, incidently, weighs 40,000lbs alone). To cap it off, my 4x12 windows bucks, are effectively vertical supports and the lag bolts that attach them to the logs, further support the log openings from horizontal shifting.

All that is to say, I would definately want an engineer to veto the design, before it was built, and see what else might be required to build as described.

[edkemper]

Braewood,

Now you're starting to hear from the brainiacs.

Remember something about this site, most of us are not builders. Most of us are everything but builders. So straying off from our limited knowledge is difficult on most of us. Some drive Chevys and some drive Fords. But we can still tow you home if you need some help.

Now you're starting to get more detailed information from a few members that are much more knowledgeable than the rest of us.

Stick around.