Seminar versus 12 week course

[JohnW]

Hi everyone. My wife and I live in central Texas and are planning to build our first log home. The seminar sounds great and I want to attend the one in September, but, honestly, I'm still unconvinced that a two-day seminar, texts and a forum can truly help you build a home.

I'm a retired Army officer and I know that I've never learned anything (tactics, maintenance or working with people) without significant hands-on practice. Yes, i realize I'll get that when building my home - but i also see the advantage of making my mistakes elsewhere and developing true technical knowledge and even a little skill before I build mine.

I've read about many of the problems - expensive tuition, having to buy tools, hotel, drudgery, repetitive manual labor, building a house the instructor will later sell, etc. They're all valid points.

I've also read the argument for using the butt and pass approach and that sounds like a brilliant and effective solution to simplifying an age-long problem.

But I know my weaknesses when it comes to home building are issues like: building a roof (never have), building a second story (never have), building foundations (never have), installing windows (did it once and did a lousy job), hanging a door (still sticks) and so on.

Can these things and other basic carpentry skills be adequately covered in a two-day seminar? Honestly - right now I'm dubious.

So, I'm hoping some of you were at the same decision point. I'd appreciate hearing how you weighed various factors and reached a decision.

Respectfully,

John

[loghousenut]

You won't learn this stuff in no 12 week seminar!!!


http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Wow/Rafters9-2010131.jpg



John and Mrs. W,

You said it yourself, "a brilliant and effective solution to simplifying an age-long problem". This course teaches a method of building that allows a family to build their own home with their own hands. Once you and your wife have taken the class you'll have access to the LHBA members side of the forum. Those of us who are farther along in our build (got the roof on our log home) will keep you on track as much as we can. You'll do the same for other members as you proceed through your build. You won't fail unless you really want to.

It's nuts and bolts, hammers and nails, drills and rebar. It's simple. It's not always easy but it is certainly doable by folks with your limited experience. Heck, it's actually fun most of the time. There are skillions of satisfied customers out there who have succeeded using this system of building. Most of them did it without a mortgage. Every one of the dozens (maybe hundreds) of them that I have ever spoken with are thankful for the freedom and the lifestyle change that the LHBA class afforded them.

You seem to worry that you'll catch yourself in a mistake or two. Please consider this as you look at your mistakes in a slightly different light. Instead of taking a 12 week course to learn how to build a complicated log home, take the short weekend course offered by LHBA and learn the simple, strong way to build your log home. Assume that you'll make a mistake or two along the way and that it'll take some extra time to go back and redo things to fix your mistakes. If you made SIX WEEKS worth of mistakes (trust me it'll be more like 2 days) you could fix all of those mistakes and still have six weeks left over to take the wife on a cruise to Alaska. Alaska can be a lot of fun.

Speaking of mistakes, you'll be amazed at how few there are to make. Sure there'll be times when you say "Next time I'll do this or that some other way". I guarantee you'll NOT say "I think my next home will be a saddle notched house".

I can only think of one real mistake that we have made so far in our home. It is one of those "I thought you said to measure from that side of that beam" mistakes. It is not structural and I can't find anyone who can see the problem even after I point it out to them. In anything but a log home it would stick out like a sore thumb. Relax and take the class.

[Tom Featherstone]

John,

Welcome to the LHBA forums. The biggest mistake we made was by not attending the class a lot sooner. We took the leap of faith a little over 3yrs ago. Went to the class with a bit of healthy skeptisisim, and after about an hour into it I realized it was all for real then had to refocus to try to become a sponge and absorb as much as possible during the time there. Having my wife attend was also a big bonus. She is an excellent note taker, and I could focus on listening. She is also quite confidant that if anything was to happen to me, she has the resources to complete a build with the help available here, and she doesn't even know what end of a hammer to hang onto.

Some things you may decide to not do, such as your roof or foundation, but I also know that people that are no more skilled in building practices are living in their log home today after taking the class.

There is no such thing as a "perfect" house, it is not possible by human hands. But the proof is in the pudding, look to the "student log home pictures" on the web page. Read as much as you can here, then take that leap!

I hope this helps. We hope to start our build next season, which will be a BnP Skip style log home. Thank you for your service to our country and good luck.

Tom

[dazedandconfused]

John , I too am skeptical( taking the class in 3 weeks) that is normal, you know you both have the 100 money back guarantee, at the very worst case situation you would have spent two days in a classroom with your wife learning something about each other and yourselves. I am sure you wont be disappointed, take the plunge. On a side note I don't have any skills to speak of and I can see my 10 year old development home is not square and has flaws, nobody notices these, I believe this is more then just building a home but a lifestyle change, Good luck to you.

[Blondie]

John,

Okay, I am going to come clean. This association currently and historically made up primarily of individuals who have NOT had experience as house builders. We have Not been carpenters in a former career. We are Not all mechanically gifted. We ARE individuals who have just happened to find Skip's way of building. It is Not elaborate, it is not fancy. It is basic. It is designed for you and me. I have never, ever put a window in. But with the help of this blog and some basic logic, I KNOW that I can or at least direct someone else how to do it. ( I am 65 yr old Grandma.) The plans from this site help alot. Basic logic helps as well. Will our homes be perfect. I know that they will not be. But they will be Sturdy, pleasing to the eye and utimately something that you will be Proud to live in.

If you were to take the 12 wk course you would learn a way of building that is Inferior to Skip's way. I know that you an still argue that the 12 wk course will teach you more. But it isn't true. Skip's group teaches the Butt and Pass method that retains the integrity of the log preventing the rot and decay of the log. The 12 wk Class teahes Canadian scribe and saddle notching. These methods open the log to rot and splitting inspite of sealants.

Take your pick, build a home that your grand children can live in or one that you tear down in ten years.

Blondie

[LogLover]

I'll go out on a limb here and pray no one here fires up a saw and slices my head off. :D
I'm going this B&P route for various personal reasons.

I have a lot of friends who have gone the other route(s) and haven't heard any of them complain about a thing along the way so far. The test is in longevity I suppose and they are anywhere from 35-36 years ago to as recent as 5 summers ago in their completions. If they have had a complaint it's maybe been the cost of the classes I guess. Many appreciated the actual hand-on in class and for them it was what they wanted.

The B&P method has some mighty loyal folks here but you can see and read it for yourself by browsing all. I've logged prolly a hundred plus hours reading.
It seems to me to be the solution to hopefully avoid the dreaded rot issue. That said - my sister-in-law has a 120 plus year old scribe cabin in N. MN near Ely and it's stood the test of time and looks like another 100 easily attainable, barring fire I guess.
I'm not to concerned about working thru the actual building - I expect a mistake or 10 along the way. The power and water issues are what I am concerned with and I hope to be able to learn more, read more and pick the brains on the "other side" in the future
Good luck in whatever direction you elect to go and who knows - we may be knocking around ideas and questions in an upcoming class.

[ramblinman502]

whats so wrong with an instructor building a house to sell "later" ?????? you gain the knowledge you need. n hes the person WITH the knowledge that has the patience to teach you. plus hes the one taking the risk. do you feel hes taking advantage of YOU????????? dont go makin him out to be the bad guy. you need him..he doesnt need you. understanding that n leaving your ego at the door is a good place to start.

[edkemper]

JohnW,

First let me say welcome aboard and thank you for your service. I mean no disrespect here but you say you're a retired ARMY Officer, and you worry about building a LHBA B&P style log home? You make me smile. I have never met you but I'm betting the farm you could do this with your eyes closed and your marriage intact. You don't need anyone holding your hand for weeks in a class. It's like hammering a nail or cutting a 2x4. You can do it with little hands-on training but by the end of a build you're the expert that can do it with your eyes closed.

Please stick around and read every page you have access to on this site. Look through all the homes. They are almost all built by amateurs. Probably most of them were less capable than you when they started. We got some old codgers and women that do it. Why not you? This is nothing compared to what you've been through.

[travelin01]

The class will also teach you enough to understand how to hire work done that you are not comfortable doing yourself. Just like any other building project. I'm thinking there was a story of a lady who built a house over the Columbia River that did almost none of the work herself, but she learned how to teach others to do the work.

[JohnW]

whats so wrong with an instructor building a house to sell "later" ?????? you gain the knowledge you need. n hes the person WITH the knowledge that has the patience to teach you. plus hes the one taking the risk. do you feel hes taking advantage of YOU????????? dont go makin him out to be the bad guy. you need him..he doesnt need you. understanding that n leaving your ego at the door is a good place to start.

Mr 502,

This comment of mine:


I've read about many of the problems - expensive tuition, having to buy tools, hotel, drudgery, repetitive manual labor, building a house the instructor will later sell, etc. They're all valid points.

referred to various arguments made on this website. You've been a member since 2007 so you should be familiar with them.

I merely acknoledged the arguments against attending a 12-week course so members didn't waste time on those particular arguments in their responses to me.

I have never stated whether I agree with them or not, so I don't need you to lecture me on how to handle my ego.

If you have a problem with someone objecting to students building homes the instructor later sells - please take that up with the article's author.

[loghousenut]

John,

There's no need to take offense to Rambler's comments. Seven of us offered reasons why you should welcome the idea of the LHBA class. Ramblinman is a LHBA fanatic just like the rest of us but he chose to explain the motives of the 12 week class instructors. I don't see it as a lecture at all, but rather he was defending the principles of the competition. I have only met him as a fellow forum contributor but I can fairly confidently recommend him as a "person of interest" for you to interview for advice concerning your desired endeavors as spoken here. I can't imagine that he penned his answer to you maliciously and I think you should consider rereading his post in a different light.

PS... So whadyathink about what the rest of us had to say? You know, we are just a bunch of folks who get together on the forum and help each other with thoughts and ideas. None of the responders so far have any connection with LHBA other than as students.

[JohnW]

JohnW,

First let me say welcome aboard and thank you for your service. I mean no disrespect here but you say you're a retired ARMY Officer, and you worry about building a LHBA B&P style log home? You make me smile. I have never met you but I'm betting the farm you could do this with your eyes closed and your marriage intact. You don't need anyone holding your hand for weeks in a class. It's like hammering a nail or cutting a 2x4. You can do it with little hands-on training but by the end of a build you're the expert that can do it with your eyes closed.

Please stick around and read every page you have access to on this site. Look through all the homes. They are almost all built by amateurs. Probably most of them were less capable than you when they started. We got some old codgers and women that do it. Why not you? This is nothing compared to what you've been through.

You calling me an old codger?

LOL

Thanks for this response. It made me laugh out loud. :D

I appreciate all of you sharing your thoughts. I still have many questions but I have a lot more articles to read on this website and many of the answers are probably there. It really is an inspiring source - as are all of you.

Susan and I will decide today whether we will attend the seminar.

Thanks again,

John

[Timberwolf]

Oh, heck why not.

I'd rather spend 2 days in class, and 82 days working on my OWN log home, than 84 days working on someone elses.

[Cruiser]

John,

I know where you are...I found this site and read and read and read. I was skeptical as I think everyone is (or should be). The more I read the more comfortable I got. Don't get me wrong, when we made the decision to take the class and let go of the money for the class, airfare, hotel, etc., that little voice in my head was saying "I hope you were just "had"". I am happy to say that I wasn't...and neither has anyone else that has taken this course over the last 40+ years. That's right...40+ years. You will learn a lot reading what you can on this side and when you take the class it's like one of those "ah-ha" moments when everything starts coming together and you realize you really can do this. We just went to the class in Jan, are making our plans and getting our financial house in order and ready for the project. It is and will be an exciting journey. I have never been in any of the construction trades, but just had a little experience helping my Dad when I was young building sheds and stuff like that. There is an absolutely great bunch of folks on here that help guide each other along. That is what really makes this work so well. You have already met a couple of the "greats" on the forum, Loghousenut & Rambler. They are first class folks. I hope you enjoy your research on the site (I know I did) and if is what you want, I look forward to seeing you on the other side...and thank you for your service!

[JohnW]

There's no need to take offense to Rambler's comments. Seven of us offered reasons why you should welcome the idea of the LHBA class. Ramblinman is a LHBA fanatic just like the rest of us but he chose to explain the motives of the 12 week class instructors. I don't see it as a lecture at all, but rather he was defending the principles of the competition. I have only met him as a fellow forum contributor but I can fairly confidently recommend him as a "person of interest" for you to interview for advice concerning your desired endeavors as spoken here. I can't imagine that he penned his answer to you maliciously and I think you should consider rereading his post in a different light.

Thanks. I understand. I certainly don't want to instigate or carry bad feelings. I just want Ramblinman (and other thread readers) to be clear that I did not make those objections to Log Home Schools. They come from this website and some I agree with and some I don't. Personally, I agree with Ramblinman on that issue. I don't see that it makes any difference whether you work on a friend's house or a school's house. Practice is practice.


PS... So whadyathink about what the rest of us had to say? You know, we are just a bunch of folks who get together on the forum and help each other with thoughts and ideas. None of the responders so far have any connection with LHBA other than as students.

Well, I think the site is invaluable and the posters seem very sincere and willing to help and my wife and I both appreciate it. We have a good feeling about this forum.

I keep going back to the fact that early log building builders didn't have schools or seminars. If you were living near some Swedish fjord in May of 1411 and wanted to build a log home, you had family and you had friends. Perhaps, if you were lucky, you might have a master craftsman in the next village who might come by and teach you a few things. This website resembles that tradition.

I think ultimately, it is a very individual choice. By nature and training, I like planning and rehearsing everything before I do it. Others are much more comfortable shooting from the hip (Ready, Fire, Aim). Neither is right or wrong, you just have to understand your own comfort level.

One thing i do see is a repeated reference to "simplicity." Now, my wife and I, by nature, are frugal people and we conserve resources where possible. There's nothing ostentatious about us. But that doesn't mean that we're against building a "showy" log home - for example, something like this which I'm sure is a kit.

http://www.loghome.com/media/originals/summit_575.jpg

I'm not saying we would necessarily choose to live in this, but we might want to build something like this so we can resell it and earn the money to buy a nice piece of land.

So, at this point, I don't know how much training and experience i need. If something like that can be built with just a two-day seminar, it would make no sense to invest more. If on the other hand, that style requires a higher level of expertise, then a few weeks and a few thousand bucks does make sense because you'll get it back in profit.

Just some thoughts, but to answer your question, we're very glad to be forum members and are looking forward to a long association with this group.

John

[Timberwolf]

Pretty looking house.

Thought about building something like that before I found the LHBA. Now, I wouldn't touch it... unless I wanted to sell it to someone I didn't like very much. There are many reasons why, the class will change those ways of thinking. Yes I know that seems contrived... I don't want to seem arrogant. It's just the way things are for me now. Check my signature link, you will see my current house a 1000% shift away from your picture. You may disagree, you may see something different, that my friend is up to you. You get out what you put in.

Just maybe, we'll see you on the member side. ;-)

[Basil]

fact is, you can take the class, and if you don't believe it was worth it you can get your money back. I had trouble believing it too, but decided to try-if it didn't work out, I'd take one of those other classes anyway, I would only be out a weekend and a few hundred dollars.

personally, I have nothing against a class that teaches you the hands on work, you are building for someone else but they are also teaching you how to do those things, they are teaching shortcuts and code rules and best practice. This class is more of an outline, you get the tools to open the door but you have to fill in some blanks. It doesn't teach you how to build a stud wall, or how to step off a rafter. Those things are available on the internet, in books, etc. Taking the class is the start of the process, not the end.

[StressMan79]

holy crap, I don't believe that no one said anything about this:

YOU CAN COME TO MY PLACE FOR PRACTICE! I'll feed you well.

Of course, ToS requires me to only offer this to other members... but Heck, if you want repetitive work, I got some for ya!

[Mosseyme]

JohnW:
We are a bit different, but a lot the same as many of the awesome folks here. We were going full force on our own to harvest and use our Hemlock trees that were going to succumb to the Hemlock wooly bug. We were headed to what would have been a livable cabin with a lot of problems to deal with through the years. I had searched for info on DIY log building but was finding mostly kit and some stuff that would be doable if you had lots of time to become proficient at the techniques. When I found LHBA I knew instantly that this was exactly what we needed. Absolutely NO second thought or disappointment. We are moving forward doing this almost entirely on our own with the unmeasurable info and moral support of this group. We do not plan to hire out any part of this build with the understanding that if it appears necessary to do so we will. With the possible exception of hiring someone to take down and move those 4 trees that my husband described as "if it takes 30 min to walk around a tree, it is to big for us to handle". We did get one down last week that was 112" in circumference and 110' tall. BTW we are 60 + or- grandparents. All that being said this is certainly not for everyone. Many people look at you like are you nuts? My guess is that if you took the class even if you go another way you will find way more than your moneys worth in info and support. However, it will make you question a lot of what most other styles incorporate. Good luck whatever you do decide.

[JohnW]

Pretty looking house.

Thought about building something like that before I found the LHBA. Now, I wouldn't touch it... unless I wanted to sell it to someone I didn't like very much. There are many reasons why, the class will change those ways of thinking. Yes I know that seems contrived... I don't want to seem arrogant. It's just the way things are for me now. Check my signature link, you will see my current house a 1000% shift away from your picture. You may disagree, you may see something different, that my friend is up to you. You get out what you put in.

Just maybe, we'll see you on the member side. ;-)


Timberwolf, great pictures. It's a real education just going through those.

Can you give me just a few points about the design I posted that make it undesirable. I'm not looking for seminar secrets, just very, very curious.

John

[Timberwolf]

Well, my house isn't anything special, but follows most of the lhba recomendations pretty much to the letter.

Compare these 4 things between my house, and your picture.

1. Roofline and roof in general.
2. Distance between the ground and my first log course.
3. The shape of the house.
4. The size/shape of my logs.

[JohnW]

Well, my house isn't anything special, but follows most of the lhba recomendations pretty much to the letter.

Compare these 4 things between my house, and your picture.

1. Roofline and roof in general.
2. Distance between the ground and my first log course.
3. The shape of the house.
4. The size/shape of my logs.


Right, yep I see all that.

a) I can see how you might have learned the basic principles from the seminar, but I'm seeing some pretty skill-intensive techniques. Did you have prior construction experience? (You make it look easy.)

b) Out of curiosity, what does it cost to rent the equipment used - not the hand-held stuff, I mean equipment to lift and handle big logs?

c) I like the walls you built to set your logs on. We have no basements in central Texas so that would be a terrific alternative.

d) What are we looking at in pic #260-261?

Where are you in Canada? I spent 6 months in Kingston, attending a Canadian staff college at Fort Frontenac, courtesy of the US Army. It's a six-month alcoholic haze in my life. Those boys could drink! LOL

[Timberwolf]

Ok,

a. No real skills here (believe me!) just a willingness to learn and do. Everything log related is completely covered in class, as is basic foundation, roof, etc. It would be impossible to cover every type of foundation type and contruction technique in detail, in any amount of time, nor would I think people would want that. There are many regional differences (Texas to say.. Canada, and where in Canada... West Coast, East Coast, Iqualit?). The class gets the concepts down of these items (square, plumb, level, bearing, etc), covers pros and cons, what to avoid, and then the forum helps will the next big steps. I would rather take the LHBA course, then maybe attend a cheap (or free) ICF foundation class from a local Texas company, which I could then apply to my build, than learn how to build 10 different foundations I might never use.

Same with the roof, basic concept is the same, but do you want Shingle? Shake? Tile? Steel? Aluminum? living? etc etc etc...

Now the instructors are more than willing and competent to talk about these, and if people bring them up, they absolutely will discuss them.

BTW, nothing there is necessarily easy... but if you can get out of bed and do PT in the morning, you can certainly do this.

I grew up on a farm, so the idea of picking up a tool and going to work has never been foreign to me, but I suspect the same for you.


b. It costs a lot, at least locally it did, because we were/are in an active contruction region, and telehandlers are in high demand. I should have bought the equipment instead of renting. That said, I've seen other members mention really cheap prices, and really smokin' deals on buying. Plus, there are many other ways to get your logs up, I just used one. Class covers this.

c. Yeah, ICF is great. Many advantages, again, depends on where you live.

d. Ah! Had to go look. That is the preparation of the in-floor Hydronic radiant heating for the basement slab just before it was poured. Probably not something you see alot of in Texas (I may be wrong). Good example though, was this covered in class... I beleive we talked about it, enough that I got the concepts, they showed how easy it was, then did some research, realized there were about a dozen ways to skin that cat (very regional), I talked to a local HVAC company, took their recommendations and experience, and by that time, I was confident I knew enough to due the basic set up and install myself (it's really dirt simple, hard on the back, but simple) and I went ahead and did it. First time, pretty good. Next time, I'll be better at it. ;)


I'm about 2 hours from Kingston, and yeah, we Canadians have a bit of a (deserved) reputation. ;)

[corax50]

John W
I took the course in '84. I've never built but believe me when I finished the course right up to this day I felt I could easily erect a cabin. I had over 40 pages of notes when I finished. Skip would say on the first day "if you can chew gum and tie your shoes you can build your home with logs". And he was right- it really is easy. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. If you take it one easy step at a time it will unfold before you real easy like. Trying to grasp the whole picture of how it will come together all at once can get you flustered.
I know it seems like such a short time to learn so much but there isn't a lot of hands on- there is just a lot of knowledge passed over. Skip showed us the different styles of building but all his focus was on butt & run(pass) for several reasons- to avoid moisture, for simplicity, to get more length out of the log, because many logs today are inferior to old growth timber and will rot if you don't build right. With his method you cut the log to length, peel and your ready to pin it on the wall. How simple is that? Sure racking them and allowing them to season or dry some is good but not necessary if your in a pinch.
Then there is the project of making a scale model of your log home- this allows you to work out 90% of the issues you will face when you make the larger one. And the forum is there to help you through any hard spots you might encounter. I have been recommending this course to all who would listen for the last 27 years. It was a life changing experience.
What part of central Texas are you in? All my relatives live around the Austin area. How are the building codes there? I would think if you head over to the east a few miles you should run into Davy Crockett country where pines abound and they would be a good tree to build with. James

[jasonfromutah]

You are talking about a small investment of less than $1000 to take the class. The pictures and countless success stories should be proof enough, of the value of the class.

Of course, you can do it. I started mine last fall. I just finished the roof. When I had questions, I asked. Building a log home is a journey. Take it step by step. Ambition, determination, and desire will take you far.

Just read the story of the ladies who built the cabin for 20K. They didn't have any building experience and built an AMAZING cabin. Buy yourself a large notebook and take the class.....

[rocklock]

John;
I did some research and heard some comments about a twelve week class. One day was spent on sharpening and caring for the axe. What happens if you dad showed you how to sharpen all kinds of stuff... mine did.
I can't believe the number and types of joints that were taught because they went through in a little timber frame stuff. We don't do joints.
The reality is I was a doubter as well. That was before this forum existed. I am finishing up my home.
Just check out the student built homes. If you into a lot of hard work, and are a problem solver, then this may be something that will appeal to you. You also need to have your wife and family one the same sheet of music... I would bet a large sum of cash that the guys that build these suckers are the ones that have a wife encouraging him at every turn...

[jpetrey]

Dear John,

I'm taking the plunge.. Lot of questions still unanswered, and very little construction knowledge. The money back guarantee and offer of post -class experience helping others, even if it is just peeling logs was enough to convince me. Now that my schedule is worked out, I'm going to Vegas in September. Hope to see you there and we can compare questions.

John Petrey

[loghousenut]

Dear John???

First time I ever heard of a "Dear John" letter from one John to another! Oh well, I guess it is the 21st century. I think both of you John's oughta go to the same class. It'll change your life.

[blane]

Hi John,
Before my son and I took the class back in 08 we had no building experience at all. We learned enough in those two days to build a log home and have at this point finished the log walls and are starting the roof now. There are still a lot of things I will have to figure out as I go but what we have accomplished so far has given us the confidence we need to do anything pertaining to finishing the house. I have friends who are more knowledgable than I am that will guide me along the way and forum on the other side will be a great tool as you are building. In reality, the two day class is only the beggining of the information available from this association. As you are building you will also have others who want hands on experience that have taken the course that will gladly leand a hand to help. And you can take a working vacation to help others to get some experience as well. The class will teach how to do everything yourself from the foundation to the roof. YOU CAN DO IT! If you are a retired army officer I am sure you are smarter than I am.
PS thanks for serving me and our country.

Hi everyone. My wife and I live in central Texas and are planning to build our first log home. The seminar sounds great and I want to attend the one in September, but, honestly, I'm still unconvinced that a two-day seminar, texts and a forum can truly help you build a home.

I'm a retired Army officer and I know that I've never learned anything (tactics, maintenance or working with people) without significant hands-on practice. Yes, i realize I'll get that when building my home - but i also see the advantage of making my mistakes elsewhere and developing true technical knowledge and even a little skill before I build mine.

I've read about many of the problems - expensive tuition, having to buy tools, hotel, drudgery, repetitive manual labor, building a house the instructor will later sell, etc. They're all valid points.

I've also read the argument for using the butt and pass approach and that sounds like a brilliant and effective solution to simplifying an age-long problem.

But I know my weaknesses when it comes to home building are issues like: building a roof (never have), building a second story (never have), building foundations (never have), installing windows (did it once and did a lousy job), hanging a door (still sticks) and so on.

Can these things and other basic carpentry skills be adequately covered in a two-day seminar? Honestly - right now I'm dubious.

So, I'm hoping some of you were at the same decision point. I'd appreciate hearing how you weighed various factors and reached a decision.

Respectfully,

John