"guesstimate" of simple system

[LogLover]

Looking for some very general costs on what it might be to get some minimal power to operate say a fridge, freezer, stove (? Energy pig I know), and such by solar power. I know it can be a skys the limit thing but someone here likely has done it reasonable and right w/o securing a mortgage to do so. lol

Just playing around with numbers here - the bride would like some rough ideas as to what we might need to budget for. Helps us in getting a time frame or general window ahead.
Any recs on reading mats - the fuser screen is hard on my eyes for days on end here. I love books.....something about the feel of them
Thanks for any and all info

[loghousenut]

Answer: How big is a ball of string?

Get a subscription to "Home Power" magazine. The beauty of alternative power is that you can start off as cheaply as you have to and add on. There is more than one way to power a stove and solar power is not it. Lights, computers, even a clothes washer are certain candidates and there are ways to solar power the fridge and freezer also. Living off grid is a process but it is doable and it is fun. We did it for years.

[lilbluehonda]

Yeah the neat thing about solar Panels it's one of the few things that have gotten way cheaper the bad part is batteries have doubled in price

[LogLover]

Thanks - will pick up the Home Power sub soon as I can locate it then.
I been hearing the cost per watt has really been dropping. Didn't realize the battery thing was up and up

We have the ability to access a power line - at a $18K cost to get it just to building site. That's kinda why I was searching for a rough guesstimate - the closest neighbor down the way is having a long line run in to their place next month and it might be more cost effective for him-us if we piggybacked in with him. So I was just looking at attempting to get a feel which way was the way to go cost wise.
nothing in life is cheap --- just looking for ways to make this dream happen sooner as the age thing is being felt. lol

[loghousenut]

Gonna live there forever? It is much easier to sell a property that is connected to power lines. There are plenty of folks who are looking for a place to live that is remote enough to have no power. There are many more people who are willing to put their life's savings into a home that will accommodate a toaster.

My point is that if you are selling and moving on in 5 years, the extra $20,000 or so for grid power will probably seem like chump change to the folks who want to sell their place in San Jose to buy your little chunk of paradise. If you are building a home to die in you oughta power it however you want to and love it for your own reasons.

In the real world $18,000 is not a rare cost to run power from the main road to the nearest corner of a remote piece of ground. It is not the end of the spending either.

[rocklock]

the closest neighbor down the way is having a long line run in to their place next month
I believe the power company will want to use the same line if possible. I used my neighbors line (rather the power company owns the line and spliced into their own line.) and I paid a prorated cost of the line to the splice, which part was returned to my neighbor, plus the cost of a transformer and concrete pad, plus the cost of installation. Total was about 5K. I only own the line leading to the transformer, the rest is owned by the power company.

[rreidnauer]

You say "stove" LogLover. Do you mean electric range with an off-grid solar application? If so, huge problem. Anything which heats with electric is too hungry to justify cost of equipment needed to power it.

If you want a real scare, dig up your electric bills and find the Kwhs for every month last year, and your location. I'll work up a a cost sheet for your current consumption. I think I've shocked a few people in the past. (Never even got a thank you from one person I worked up the numbers for)

[LogLover]

Okay - so now I will have to re-sell the bride on this being a relative "low cost" affair. Maybe if I can find free logs, free labor and free everything else .... lol
In this area power outages are fairly common in the winter and sometimes srping during storms. Somein area have said they've been down 2-3 weeks a year as the utility companies in northern MN get sent to more populated areas to the south when storms hit. I still think (chaaaaching) solar will have a place in this whole thing - as a backup if nothing else. Maybe I'll bite the dust and get it put in to lot and then work thru a cheaper "emergency" solar back up. The area is not viable for wind nor water options.
There's so stinkin' much material to read on solar ..... if only I was mega wealthy I'd hire all out and sip a cold one in the background

[edkemper]

Loglover,

The cost of a back-up generator would likely be far cheaper for those times when the power goes down. Just a thought.

[lilbluehonda]

Yea by about a factor of five

[Timberwolf]

At least, i scored a 16kW for $750. Pto driven, but still.

[LogLover]

I thought about a generator for option but dread the noise of the things ... or at least the one I have now. It's a 8500w but OMG it splits the ear drums. It's a Honda and I thought they were fairly quiet per se - maybe I could enclose it in a shed at that. Definitely will keep the bears far away when it's running so that part is the plus.
The one I have also sucks fuel like I have a tanker too --- how efficient are the ones you guys run when it comes to fuel? Maybe mine is a lemon. lol

[LogLover]

Holy crap - where'd you dig up them there logs? Wanna send some down to International Falls area?

Nice looking build there buddy....makes me envious:cool:

[lilbluehonda]

I thought about a generator for option but dread the noise of the things ... or at least the one I have now. It's a 8500w but OMG it splits the ear drums. It's a Honda and I thought they were fairly quiet per se - maybe I could enclose it in a shed at that. Definitely will keep the bears far away when it's running so that part is the plus.
The one I have also sucks fuel like I have a tanker too --- how efficient are the ones you guys run when it comes to fuel? Maybe mine is a lemon. lol

With out a big load you can hardly hear this run

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/modeldetail.aspx?page=modeldetail&section=P2GG&modelname=EU3000i%20Handi&modelid=EU3000iHAN

[Timberwolf]

Holy crap - where'd you dig up them there logs? Wanna send some down to International Falls area?

Nice looking build there buddy....makes me envious:cool:

Lol. We grow 'em big in Canada. ;)

For back up power, check out utterpower.com i would have went that route (still may) but since i had the tractor anyway, the PTO genset made alot of sense.

[rreidnauer]

Okay - so now I will have to re-sell the bride on this being a relative "low cost" affair.
I've said it time and time again. It's far easier and cheaper to conserve than it is to produce. Anyone who thinks they can continue to live the lifestyle of low-cost, unlimited power in a home with limited power and expensive equipment is in for a rude surprise. Conservation doesn't mean you have to live like a miser hermit either, but it does demand some alterations to your lifestyle to be practical. Search "conserve" on here, and I'm sure you'll find a thread listing examples. BTW, I'm building a system with only a mere 2,100 watts of solar. Way below what most home installations have, but I'll be thinking more conservative than your average family.

[lilbluehonda]

What are you doing for batteries ? I just bought 1300 watts of solar today

[rreidnauer]

Not sure if that question was directed at me, but I'll likely use Trojan T-105's. (probably, 4 strings of 8 batteries) That should give me a little over 10 kWh of power a day, while not discharging the battery bank below 75%SOC on a sunny day.

[hemlock77]

Rod;
What are you doing on the conservation side to get by with a 2100 watt system? I am only in the early stages of a plan but I am sure there are more conservation opportunities.
Stu

[lilbluehonda]

Rod;
What are you doing on the conservation side to get by with a 2100 watt system? I am only in the early stages of a plan but I am sure there are more conservation opportunities.
Stu
I was kinda wondering that myself 2100 watts is a good sized system I would have thought he'd go with the bigger L-16 batteries but you should be able to do pretty well with that much solar

[rreidnauer]

I might go with the L-16s. (would only need two strings of eight then) It'll all come down to which is the best price at the time of purchase.

Stu, assuming you think 2,100 watts is fairly small, (I guess Lilbluehonda thinks it's large) some of the steps I'll be taking to limit power use are:

Woodstove for heat
Small, unpowered direct vent propane for lower rooms
Solar domestic hot water
CFL / LED lighting
Clothes line
No dishwasher
Staber high efficiency washing machine
Gas range
Possibly converted deep freezer to refrigerator
Possibly Earth-Tube style air-conditioning

[lilbluehonda]

I found a place out in Calif. where I can get L-16's for 220 each of course they aren't Trojan's which around here are going for 335

[rocklock]

Rod,
My son has spent the winter in my log home. He has used the small wood stove for heating as well as cooking. He said that he prefers to cook on the stove because it humidifies as well as heats... Just a thought. Have you thought about propane freezer?

[rreidnauer]

Yes, I am considering a propane refrigerator/freezer. From years of RVing, I know they use fuel quite efficiently. However, I also know residential size units are quite spendy, and typically not made as well as their ancestral counterparts. (many of which are still in operation today)

On the other hand, the converted deep-freezer, using such low amounts of power, would have minuscule effect on my daily energy usage, that it's practically free to operate, but then I loose having a freezer.

That said, my kitchen layout is laid out where the refrigerator is on an exterior wall, should I end up going with propane. There is always something to weigh when it comes to these decisions.

So, LogLover. Is any of this conversation working in favor of your case, or do you find it discouraging?

[lilbluehonda]

The other thing I worry about with using propane is the cost,with whats happening with gas prices propane will follow ,propane refrigeration cost a lot more than elect. to buy and if they don't last as long and the price of propane goes way up and the cost of solar is going down,the solar powered make more sense .I plan on keeping my main units in a none heated area so in the winter it shouldn't take much to run

[hemlock77]

The chest fridge is one thing I am looking at, still don't have the boss sold on that one yet. I did some temp readings in the basement last summer on 95+ degree day, it was only 64 degrees in the basement. So ac may not even be needed. I will be looking at those lighting numbers again and also the high efficiency washer. I was already planning to run all heat appliances on propane.
Stu

[lilbluehonda]

Just received my panels this afternoon Backwoods Solar had some blems that were slightly under spec they are 220 watt Schott panels they call them 202 watt because some didn't make it up to 220 Watts but they were only 1.70 a watt based on the 202 anyway I got really close to 1300 watts for 2200

[rreidnauer]

That was a good deal you found for polycrystalline panels. Yea, so what if they are out of spec. The only disadvantage to that would be a lower watts-to-collector area ratio, and that only matters if you were trying to fit a system on a home's roof, and you wanted to get every possible watt for that given area.

Were these your first pieces to the puzzle lilbluehonda?

[lilbluehonda]

I do have a smaller system for my travel trailer,a few years back I bought some used Arco panels that came from a solar project,I latter found out they weren't very good,they had been basically cooked, they had used reflectors to concentrate more sun on them so it takes a bunch of them to get a little power. The panels I got yesterday is the start of my new system,also got an outback MPPT charge controller because I'm going to run 72V to my 12V battery bank and I'm going about 260 ft. got all the cables to connect everything and a combiner box to hook them together still need to find a deal on about 600 ft of 4 Ga. wire get a bigger inverter and more batteries

[Mosseyme]

I'd love it if one of you guys would put together a mix and match sort of blueprint that combined Solar, wind, microhydro, backup generator, wood, ect. into a simple form with alternative selections for the parts involved and basic wattages possible. It could include how to use each type for primary and how to tie in back up systems and overload protection and some of the basics that we would need to get started. I'm sure you could do an alternative power for dummies plan in 10 easy steps, RIGHT!! I'll stand in line to buy it!!!!

[rreidnauer]

The problem of trying to do that is, there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to this stuff. Every system is tailored to the home. Too small, and you don't have enough power. Too large and you are just wasting money and resources. Additionally, changes to the system can be problematic. For example, I was originally going to build a 24 volt system, but as I decided to increase my solar panel array size, I was forced to go to 48 volts to circumvent the amperage limitation of my charge controller. But by doing so, my generator head for the wind turbine is now sized wrong, so I'll either have to make a new stator for it, or find a work around to deal with it.

That said, I do have a basic wiring diagram of my system showing interaction for a combo solar and wind arrangement. I'll post it tonight when I get home.

[Mosseyme]

Rod, so did you ever think you would like a working vacation in the beautiful Smoky Mountains? Maybe we could work something out down the road when we get that far. I guess there are microhydro consultants out there but I'd rather pay someone I know. Maybe we can talk about it sometime.

[hemlock77]

I'd love it if one of you guys would put together a mix and match sort of blueprint that combined Solar, wind, microhydro, backup generator, wood, ect. into a simple form with alternative selections for the parts involved and basic wattages possible. It could include how to use each type for primary and how to tie in back up systems and overload protection and some of the basics that we would need to get started. I'm sure you could do an alternative power for dummies plan in 10 easy steps, RIGHT!! I'll stand in line to buy it!!!!
Can I get in line right behind you?

[rreidnauer]

Oops. Forgot to upload the image yesterday. (you'll likely notice this is an older drawing showing a 24v system)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/Solar_Wind_Electric.jpg

It sounds like fun Mosseyme, but when I switch employers sometime this year, I know I'm going to loose a lot of vacation time. (13 years of seniority rolls back to zero, along with the vacation benefits)

[LogLover]

I believe I got something started here .... lol
I'm headed up to meet a guy from the electric coop that provides service in area so get some figures and make some decisions from there. Or not - I am feeling a wee bit over-whelmed on this power thing right now. Not a wee bit but a lot if I'm really honest

[ChainsawGrandpa]

You know, I haven't even read the other replies, but here's my quick answer....

Go to: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/05/the-four-mile-island-iceb.html for a fridge (leave the valve open longer and it becomes a freezer), or buy the book "Sunshine to dollars" for a six cent (operation cost for 28 lbs of ice) ice box or freezer. Stainless "trickle-down" feeder tubes and a large slow box fan should deliver enough of a cool blast to keep you comfortable in the worst of the summer heat with that same 28 lbs of ice.

As for cooking, I have a pair of gassifiers. You can build them for almost nothing, but I bought mine for about $79 each. Yes, I know. Not smart to pay that much money for a simple stove. You can also use propane or white gas but mine will run for a long, long time for just pennies a month. My rack for the gassifiers should be done in a week or so (depends on how much time my welder has to spend on my projects). This is just a 4" x 1/8" metal frame that surrounds the top of four 1" square tubing. A thick expanded metal grid is welded to the top of the frame. The gassifiers slide under the unit and it will boil a 1/2 gallon of water in less than ten minutes. If you want to cook indoors you might consider propane or CNG. Electric power for AC, fridge, freezer, and cooking just isn't practical with solar.

You might also consider a fresnel lens and mirror (greenpowerscience on youtube) for stove top or oven cooking. Focused 1" mirrors will also deliver more than enough heat for a solar oven ,but of course the sun must be shining for it to work.

You don't have to "give-up" anything to live in the country, or go solar, but most likely you will change you methods to maintain the city lifestyle.

G'pa

[StressMan79]

A/C

is not a necessity for many areas of the US. Where I am building in E. Washington, it is dry enough for a swamp cooler to work quite nicely. This coupled with the thermal mass of my house and floor should keep the inside temp in the 75 degree range even when it is 100 degrees outside.

P.S. never use a swamp cooler in a swamp. it won't work at all. the air needs to be dry for you to gain much at all. But I'll run mine off of 12VDC at only a couple amps, so I can run it off of solar.

P.P.S. Csaw, that is what I will use that big fan for, the one of which I gave you a twin...

[ChainsawGrandpa]

I sure appreciate the fan. I already have a DC motor for it ($5). I don't know the rated CFM of the fan, or the rpm I'll be running, but my guess is that when mounted in a temporary "pinned-in" pressure door it may only take a few minutes to exchange all my inside air. Of course it will take a while to remove all those BTUs from the structure.

I may never need AC, and I only have about three intolerable days in a year. The fan should do it all for me. A whole lot cheaper than AC.

G'pa