Self-Sustained Living

[BarstowRat]

So my wife and I have been discussing life in our cabin, that is when ever we get around to building it. And we were thinking about how nice it would be to live a totally self-sustained life, ideally having no bills (no job ;-)), and really not being dependant on society like gas and electricity and such. We figure that people have been doing it for thousands of years, so why can't we? But aside from farming crops/animals, what is a good way to go about other essentials like power and water. A fridge would be nice for longevity of foods and waterfront property is usually very expensive, so how about running water without the city? I don't mind doing things myself and I am quite crafty and actually enjoy making things instead of buying them, just need to be lead in the right direction. I know my thoughts are random and discombobulated, but that's how my crazy brain works. Thanks in advance.

[rocklock]

Just to start, you need land.. How much depends on lots of stuff... Some place like Southern Oregon or Northern California (North of Sacramento) you might need less than some place like Montana where there are serious cold temps.
You need time to learn all the stuff you need to know about being sustained. Just a note, it ain't easy. Also, its just plain hard work.
You need some personal infrastructure, like relatives, friends or something like that, or lots of money.
You will need stuff to last while you are learning.
IMHO, you need a focus of what you will try... like organic _____, or hydroponic ____, or doing hunting and gathering.
I am not into being Self-Sustained, but I want to concentrate on Berries and developing an entire line of sugar free jams and other food stuffs. I want to grow my own garlic (I planted about 30 bucks worth of bulbs last October).
So, there are a few starting points. Its too bad that you don't have a relative or friend that has some kind of farm, but the owner is getting too old to do the work. Maybe you could advertise or do a search on the internet. I did see one opportunity on Craig's List that wanted help to work on Whidbey Island, Washington, but that was last year.
Just a note... I have been to Fort Irwin. Barstow is not the place to start this journey.
Note two, we have a member whose wife made soap so well that a major retailer bought her out. Then she has a cow and has sold shares to her neighbors, bakes bread, runs chickens has a hog or two and a bunch of other stuff that still amazes me. I think they have about five acres here in Washington.
Note three, in addition, being prepared is necessary. I just ordered one years supply of food, that I hope to turn into a new kind of lifestyle that has fishing, hunting and bartering.

[Mark OBrien]

Start simply and keep it simple. One of the most important aspects of self sustenance is growing your own food. Start a garden, do your homework and see how much food you get out of your garden. Learn to cellar, can foods and other methods of preservation. It is hard work, as Dave says, and it is tedious and monotonous, but it is essential if you are going to live the lifestyle. If you can, raise a cow or a hog and when the time comes, butcher it yourself. See if you can handle the blood and guts of an animal you were tending to yesterday. That cute calf is now a pile of steaming guts and meat and body parts on your butchers table. That is a big test to see if you can self sustain.

[Mosseyme]

for the tenderhearted or vegetarian beans grow well store well in many locations, and no blood and guts.lol. just saying.

[BarstowRat]

I have no issues with hunting and had intended on raising animals for feed. Butchering doesn't bother me, and neither does the hard work. The dream of this is that I would not be stuck in this "american dream" bust my hump working, making someone else rich so I can barely provide for my own. I know it will be hard work, but I think it will be so much more gratifying to know that all my effort is for my family. My biggest hurdle is finding out how to do it effectively and inexpensively. With luck water is high enough I can dig a well, wind to power a pump and maybe even some electricity. Like these cabins, people have been doing it for little moeny and no contractors so I feel this too can be done the same way.

[rreidnauer]

It's getting harder and harder to live self sustaining. Why? Let me give you a few examples. I just started researching what it takes to get a house number assigned to a property. While it may not apply to my state, I was reading where one state issues a house number when you apply to have electric connected to it. So, what happens if you build off-grid? Hmmmm.
Another example which will apply to me. My state now requires fire sprinkler systems. So, if I don't have city water, I have to have a holding tank, pump and power to run it. Will the state tell me my solar equipment is insufficient to run the pump? Hmmmm.
Speaking of requiring power, the septic must be a pressure type system. No gravity feed systems are allowed in PA anymore. I haven't even tested the waters yet (pun intended) about rainwater catchment. The state may demand I use public water or drill a well. (and back to the power thing)
For heat, they won't allow only a wood burning heating device. (the one true independent heating source) I have to install something that will require it's energy from an outside supplier, whether that be gas, oil, or electric. (though, the law doesn't say I have to use it)
I also know they are running public water and sewer by my property, and wonder how long until it will be required that I'd be tied into it.

It's sad to say, but true, independent, self-sustaining lifestyles will be phased out whether we like it or not. I don't see any way this will be avoided. There simply aren't enough people willing to live such a lifestyle to oppose the loss of independence's being forced upon us. The best we can do is get built ASAP and grandfathered in before it's no longer possible.

[StressMan79]

indeed, or tell the inspectors to come back with a warrant. That is what I intend to do.

[edkemper]

It's all about what the government wants to know. It's illegal to keep more than a certain amount of cash on hand. Why? Because the government is unable to track your activities. The claim is that it's all about the illegal drugs. Yet few of us are part of that system and yet we've lost our privacy because drugs are the excuse. As I'm learning about Canada, I can never get away from U.S. Taxes. Even if I move to Canada, work in Canada, invest in Canada, I still have to file U.S. Taxes. Living off-grid, how are they going to charge you for being here and using the U.S. owned sun? A recent trial proved that anything you buy with your credit card is public information available for use to file criminal charges for anything they find.

It's getting harder and harder to remove yourself from the hustle and costs of government.

[BoFuller]

It's getting harder and harder to live self sustaining. Why? Let me give you a few examples. I just started researching what it takes to get a house number assigned to a property. While it may not apply to my state, I was reading where one state issues a house number when you apply to have electric connected to it. So, what happens if you build off-grid? Hmmmm.
Another example which will apply to me. My state now requires fire sprinkler systems. So, if I don't have city water, I have to have a holding tank, pump and power to run it. Will the state tell me my solar equipment is insufficient to run the pump? Hmmmm.
Speaking of requiring power, the septic must be a pressure type system. No gravity feed systems are allowed in PA anymore. I haven't even tested the waters yet (pun intended) about rainwater catchment. The state may demand I use public water or drill a well. (and back to the power thing)
For heat, they won't allow only a wood burning heating device. (the one true independent heating source) I have to install something that will require it's energy from an outside supplier, whether that be gas, oil, or electric. (though, the law doesn't say I have to use it)
I also know they are running public water and sewer by my property, and wonder how long until it will be required that I'd be tied into it.

It's sad to say, but true, independent, self-sustaining lifestyles will be phased out whether we like it or not. I don't see any way this will be avoided. There simply aren't enough people willing to live such a lifestyle to oppose the loss of independence's being forced upon us. The best we can do is get built ASAP and grandfathered in before it's no longer possible.

We have every intention of being self-sustaining and off-grid. I have a rented propane tank for now to heat the trailer and run the refrig, but as we build the log home, we will add solar power and a wood-burning stove. We should start well-drilling in another month (when it's not too muddy to get in and out) and will go with a solar water pump. We are planning on 2 or 3 green houses as well as a garden and at least 2 root cellars. Probably 3, as one will be for storing fuel. Like food, fuel keeps longer at cooler temperatures and we can hit in the 90's in the summer. Eventually we will have a wood stove to heat the green houses so we can extend our growing season. I think AZ is getting picky, but compared to CA and PA, it sounds like a breeze.

[edkemper]

I've considered being grid tied while producing my own power but am rethinking being connected. Even if I produce as much power as I use and have no power bill, I will still be charged fees. Monthly service charges, extra taxes and such. So independent power is looking better all the time. I'm hoping the only regular fees I'll have to pay are the property taxes.

Bo, consider a good area away from the house for an extreme compost pile. You may be able to arrange others to "donate" compostable materials. Instead of paying to have it hauled off and disposed of, maybe a free place to dump it would be of interest in these tight financial times. Black compost will help growing crops and far cheaper and friendlier than pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Imagine every square inch of your dirt being black, fertile and full of bugs, worms and beneficial bacteria.

[BoFuller]

Bo, consider a good area away from the house for an extreme compost pile. You may be able to arrange others to "donate" compostable materials. Instead of paying to have it hauled off and disposed of, maybe a free place to dump it would be of interest in these tight financial times. Black compost will help growing crops and far cheaper and friendlier than pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Imagine every square inch of your dirt being black, fertile and full of bugs, worms and beneficial bacteria.

Yes exactly. I plan on visiting a cattle farm down the road aways (next weekend when I go up there) and see if he would like to get rid of several tons of manure. I know my soil needs a lot of help to get to the point of a garden. I don't intend on using any pesticides. Trying for organic. Might even get to where I can sell a little maybe. My uncle had a worm farm when I was a kid, so I know the value of having good worms.

[BoFuller]

So my wife and I have been discussing life in our cabin, that is when ever we get around to building it. And we were thinking about how nice it would be to live a totally self-sustained life, ideally having no bills (no job ;-)), and really not being dependant on society like gas and electricity and such. We figure that people have been doing it for thousands of years, so why can't we? But aside from farming crops/animals, what is a good way to go about other essentials like power and water. A fridge would be nice for longevity of foods and waterfront property is usually very expensive, so how about running water without the city? I don't mind doing things myself and I am quite crafty and actually enjoy making things instead of buying them, just need to be lead in the right direction. I know my thoughts are random and discombobulated, but that's how my crazy brain works. Thanks in advance.

My wife and I spent this weekend at a Sustainable Preparedness seminar. It was exactly what you talked about. Alternative power systems, like solar. Energy efficient appliances that run cheaply on solar and/or propane. Solar water pump for the well. Gardening year-around, root cellars, heating with wood, healing with herbs, choosing land, useful tools and maintenance, you name it, they covered it. You might check out their book, "Sustainable Preparedness" by Mountain Media Ministries.

[spiralsands]

In NY, I was able to get a "house" number, really called a "911" number, with no house on property and not living there.

Also, don't buy land if you know there's no water on it. Water was my number 1 priority during my land search. You NEED it for survival.

[lilbluehonda]

I've considered being grid tied while producing my own power but am rethinking being connected. Even if I produce as much power as I use and have no power bill, I will still be charged fees. Monthly service charges, extra taxes and such. So independent power is looking better all the time. I'm hoping the only regular fees I'll have to pay are the property taxes.

Bo, consider a good area away from the house for an extreme compost pile. You may be able to arrange others to "donate" compostable materials. Instead of paying to have it hauled off and disposed of, maybe a free place to dump it would be of interest in these tight financial times. Black compost will help growing crops and far cheaper and friendlier than pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Imagine every square inch of your dirt being black, fertile and full of bugs, worms and beneficial bacteria.

Yes but the price and hassle of batteries would cost way more than any fee's ,a grid connect would be far cheaper,panels have come way down in price and Batteries have gone way up a good sized Battery bank can run 4 to 10 thousand dollars then they need to be replace every 5 to 8 years

[BoFuller]

Yes but the price and hassle of batteries would cost way more than any fee's ,a grid connect would be far cheaper,panels have come way down in price and Batteries have gone way up a good sized Battery bank can run 4 to 10 thousand dollars then they need to be replace every 5 to 8 years

Solar power is not competitive with the grid. With the cost of equipment, it can cost 5X more or even more. But I have two things to consider.
First, When the SHTF, and the grid goes down, I don't want to be affected. It is worth the money to me to be independent of the public utilities.
Second, in my case there is no grid for about 10 miles, so this is one case where it would cost me WAY more to have a line brought in than 50 years worth of batteries. I picked the property because it is so remote.
Also, when I make my final solar system for the completed home, I will go with a forklift battery, that is currently costing about $2500 and will last for over 20 years and take care of all my needs.

[stamic55]

It's sad to say, but true, independent, self-sustaining lifestyles will be phased out whether we like it or not. I don't see any way this will be avoided. There simply aren't enough people willing to live such a lifestyle to oppose the loss of independence's being forced upon us. The best we can do is get built ASAP and grandfathered in before it's no longer possible.

I know the Amish will never be "connected." I'd be curious to learn if they have to build to the same guidelines you talked about here in PA. There may be a loophole. I know a few Amish. I'll have to ask them next time I see them.

[loghousenut]

Bo, We lived off the grid for a bunch of years. You'll think you are gonna do it to escape technology but there's a lot of modern technology that has made it much easier for folks in the sticks. You can pick and choose your level of technological involvement and have a much easier life, in a lot of ways, than or Grandad had.

Heck, you'll fall right into the routine and love it.

[Kick Forward]

I will go with a forklift battery, that is currently costing about $2500 and will last for over 20 years and take care of all my needs.

Hi Bo, I never heard of using a forklift battery before. I use more electric than the average person (I assume) being that I work with computers and other gadgets and work from home so I never thought I could depend on solar without spending 10's of thousands. I'd like to learn more though if it may be a possibility with land I purchase to build on. So do you think solar power can be a possibility for someone who uses a lot of electricity? I'm planning on building in Kentucky for reference. My bills are all over the place, from 261 KWH to 1,200+ KWH some months.

[edkemper]

lilbluehanda,

> Yes but the price and hassle of batteries would cost way more than any fee's,

I don't know about you but in my location we pay these fees monthly:
$ 10.00 (System Infrastructure Fixed Charge)
$ .83 (Solar Surcharge)
$ .18 (State Surcharge)

Those are fees paid before you even turn on one light switch. Total over 5 years=$660 - over 8 years=$1057

> a grid connect would be far cheaper,

How many grid connections have you hooked up in the country? The fees are extremely expensive unless you already have power poles on your property. These fees can amount to many thousands easily.

> panels have come way down in price and Batteries have gone way up

Being a regular consumer over the last 15 years, I haven't noticed huge price increases in batteries. However high tech batteries have. But they are not what we use for our systems.

> a good sized Battery bank can run 4 to 10 thousand dollars

How many batteries in this system?

> then they need to be replace every 5 to 8 years

Being we have a major push for battery powered vehicles, better batteries are being designed and built as we speak. Over the next 10 years, I would expect batteries will be far different than what we have now.

If you pay for the system without financing, your cost to set up the system is fixed. So to speak, every year the average cost of the power goes down to longer you have it.

Then there's the issue of keeping our personal information in almost every government computer in the country.

[sdart]

So do you think solar power can be a possibility for someone who uses a lot of electricity?

Judging from our experience off the grid both in this country and in Europe, I would say that it is not the computers that would be the problem. Anything that uses electricity to heat is where you really get high levels. Irons (probably not a problem for most people these days), electric heaters and hair dryers. In France all washing machines have to heat up the water with electricity, rather than using the hot water from the water heater, so that is a problem and we have ours connected directly to the generator for that reason. When we have guests we have to make a point of telling them that they can't just casually plug in their hair dryers and blow-dry their hair...

But we're both on computers a good part of the day with no problems.

Sarah

[edkemper]

Doing a little research on the net.

In an article I found they refer to Trojan T-105 batteries as a newer standard. They say they are priced at $220 a piece. They talk of two banks of 12 batteries each. 24 total.

From the article: 24 T-105 batteries x $220 = $5280


However looking on the internet, I can buy the T-105 batties for $125 a piece.


24 batteries x $125 = $3000


If I have to replace all of them every 8-10 years, I'm betting I could do a little traveling for what I could save by being off grid. That would cost average to just $25 per month. Not including all the (free - sort of) power you stored and used over that same period.

The more research I do the better this looks.

[Kick Forward]

I would say that it is not the computers that would be the problem. Anything that uses electricity to heat is where you really get high levels.

Thanks Sarah. Yes I realize I (we) aren't currently of the mindset of conserving electricity and would have to buy appliances and plan to live off energy we produce, but I just mean I will need constant electric and I will not be able to conserve as much as other people. I'll keep looking into it. People typically lose me when they show off a diagram... :p

Josh

[BoFuller]

Hi Bo, I never heard of using a forklift battery before. I use more electric than the average person (I assume) being that I work with computers and other gadgets and work from home so I never thought I could depend on solar without spending 10's of thousands. I'd like to learn more though if it may be a possibility with land I purchase to build on. So do you think solar power can be a possibility for someone who uses a lot of electricity? I'm planning on building in Kentucky for reference. My bills are all over the place, from 261 KWH to 1,200+ KWH some months.

As Sarah mentioned, as long as you are not using electric for heating, you will have no problem off the grid. I have a neighbor who has a system that produces over 10K per day and he is not really into cutting back. He wants to be able to use his arc welder while his wife is doing the laundry and has the big screen on.

[Kick Forward]

Great, thanks Bo. It seems that a lot of you are very knowledgable on the subject so I will try and tackle it. I was already going to use gas for cooking, wood as single source of heat, energy efficient appliances - but didn't think you could build a 2k+ square foot home and be solely dependent on solar.

[lilbluehonda]

I live of the grid along ways off the grid and Ed your numbers aren't even close to reality,if your running a entire house you usually use L-16 Batteries or fork lift Batteries ,good Trojan L-16's are 360.00 ea. if you run a entire house you'll probably need 12 or more and a lot of battery interconnects and a stand by generator for overcast days which would double your price,I live off batteries I know it cost alot just gas for the battery charging generator is around 100.00 a month in the winter

[StressMan79]

Modern electronics are sippers of power, the biggest loss comes from your inverter--which is largely unneeded (technically) here's why:

Anything that runs off a computer runs on 12VDC. Even some computers that require more still require DC. AC is only good for converting between voltages (transformers work fairly well), but you could provide DC at say 12V from a 120 VDC source(or really anything down to ~36V). Anyway, most electronics have different transformers that run different parts (like a motor and controller might run ~ 120VDC/12VDC) of the same unit.

Thus it is easier to get a tru sine inverter, but not strictly required. For instance, hair dryers have 2 parts: A fan and heating coil. The heating coil will of course work just fine on DC. What surprises many is that the motor is a DC motor. There is just a bridge rectifier before it, so it would work fine on 12VDC too.

Actually many low power motors are DC motors. Fans, ETC would work fine on DC.

They have CFLs that work on lower voltage, but they cost much more, but what most people don't know is that CFLs rectify the input first, then do stuff do it...So 120VDC would work fine for that too.

LCD backlighting is 120VDC, LED is 12 VDC...but either is DC. You could engineer it to run on DC as well...

FWIW

[BoFuller]

I live of the grid along ways off the grid and Ed your numbers aren't even close to reality,if your running a entire house you usually use L-16 Batteries or fork lift Batteries ,good Trojan L-16's are 360.00 ea. if you run a entire house you'll probably need 12 or more and a lot of battery interconnects and a stand by generator for overcast days which would double your price,I live off batteries I know it cost alot just gas for the battery charging generator is around 100.00 a month in the winter

I know people who don't even own a generator. If you have enough panels, and have your charger set to where it actually tops off your batteries instead of going into float at 85%. Most equipment is set extremely conservatively and needs tweaking to maximize results. But you're correct, a forklift battery is the way t go if you can swing it. More upfront cash and not exactly convenient to put in your trunk. :)

[BoFuller]

Great, thanks Bo. It seems that a lot of you are very knowledgable on the subject so I will try and tackle it. I was already going to use gas for cooking, wood as single source of heat, energy efficient appliances - but didn't think you could build a 2k+ square foot home and be solely dependent on solar.

Yes that can be done. You need to learn about conserving though. Simple things like putting your TV on a power bar and turning the bar off when you are not watching. Many appliances have a large phantom load - they pull a lot of juice even when you think they are off.

[BoFuller]

I live of the grid along ways off the grid and Ed your numbers aren't even close to reality,if your running a entire house you usually use L-16 Batteries or fork lift Batteries ,good Trojan L-16's are 360.00 ea. if you run a entire house you'll probably need 12 or more and a lot of battery interconnects and a stand by generator for overcast days which would double your price,I live off batteries I know it cost alot just gas for the battery charging generator is around 100.00 a month in the winter

Whoa there. I would be a little more cautious in challenging Ed. What is it that you think is way off? I see T-105's for $139, so the price is right on. And 24 of them is plenty to power a good size home as long as you don't have an electric dryer, an electric oven, an electric water heater, electric heaters, or 100W incandescent bulbs all over the house. If you have adequate solar panels, you can run things with heavier usage during the day and be a little more conservative after sundown.
I don't see where he is way off.

[StressMan79]

Yes that can be done. You need to learn about conserving though. Simple things like putting your TV on a power bar and turning the bar off when you are not watching. Many appliances have a large phantom load - they pull a lot of juice even when you think they are off.

The biggest problem with phantom loads, in off-grid applications is ANY current requirement will make your inverter come off standby and take ~5% of it's RATED POWER. That is if you have a 2400 W inverter and you plug in a 5W cell phone charger, You'll draw 120+5 W. A very unuseful waste of electricity. Now if you are having movie night, you can prolly run a 700W microwave off that inverter and have enough left for LED lighting, a LED big screen and a surround sound System. Just don't leave it plugged in when you go to bed (I suggest a battery shutoff to make sure you have no problems)

-Peter

[lilbluehonda]

If you don't have a generator what do you do in the winter when you don't see the sun for a week,what do you do in Jan. when the suns so low in the sky your lucky if you get a couple of hours of good sun especially like me I've got large tree's (150 ft.+) that get in the way in the winter but are fine in the summer,in the summer I can make enough power to run a refrigerator and small freezer. Living in Az. is a lot different than living further north,you guys probably get two or three times the sun people in the north get,if you have a stream with drop you can take care of all of that with Hydro power but not that many people have that,if it's not sunny it doesn't matter how many panels you have

[lilbluehonda]

I was wondering do any of you actually live off grid in the North I mean right now my panels are covered with snow and I'm on the computer and watching TV both Satellite I couldn't be doing it with out a generator,I live in a remote area probably the most remote person in the entire county but I want all the modern conveyances. I don't run a full sized gen. I have a 5.5 HP Honda motor running an alt. but I still go threw over 5 gal. of gas a week in the winter

[BoFuller]

When I said that I know people who don't have a generator, I was just saying that it can be done in many places. Some places it can't. Obviously with your trees and northern latitude, a generator is a MUST. My trees are less than 40 ft and I can't remember the last time we had more than 2 days without sunshine. That said, I think I might prefer to need a generator and have those big trees than all the sun we have, but oh well. Actually I have 3 generators, for a variety of reasons. 1K, 5K, and 17.5K

Each situation is different. I'm just saying that for where Ed lives, his numbers were okay. Where you live, your experience is different.

[lilbluehonda]

Only thing is Ed doesn't live that far from me,I just live up higher

[edkemper]

If you don't mind sharing, where do you live? Your profile doesn't say.

My property is 35 miles from the nearest town with services. 16 miles to the closest restaurant. About 5 miles past the last mailboxes. I'm about 85 miles from Costco Muffins. No government services or help nearby.

[lilbluehonda]

Way above Paradise Ca.only I'm 8 miles past the last mail box and Neighbor

[edkemper]

Being that you're in CA, I totally understand how expensive it'd be. Fortunately, I'm getting out where I can live cheaper.

[lilbluehonda]

I'm from the Bay Area I moved up here so I could afford to retire besides 400 dollars a year for property tax it's pretty cheap living in the middle of no where

[BoFuller]

I was from the Ventura County area (between L.A. and Santa Barbara. We left there 7 years ago just to get out of CA. I love AZ. I can walk into the grocery store with my Glock holstered on my hip and nobody freaks out.

[BarstowRat]

So is it possible to have reliable power, year round for "free", and by that I mean nature provided, no generators or grid. Even if you live near water, micro-hydro is not great in the summer months when the water drops, not to mention that many places hold mineral rights of the water so it may be a legal issue. That said, is it possible to harness the sun and wind, year round? If so, would that require such an operation both in set up and maintenance that it would be more costly then then simple generator?

[BoFuller]

So is it possible to have reliable power, year round for "free", and by that I mean nature provided, no generators or grid. Even if you live near water, micro-hydro is not great in the summer months when the water drops, not to mention that many places hold mineral rights of the water so it may be a legal issue. That said, is it possible to harness the sun and wind, year round? If so, would that require such an operation both in set up and maintenance that it would be more costly then then simple generator?

Yes it will cost more than a generator setup for sure. The question is how long do you want to buy fuel. Or as I tend to think, how long will you be able to buy fuel.
If you go renewable, then you WILL have a sizable outlay for panels, batteries, inverters, charge controllers, cabling, and such. I wouldn't count on wind as a primary source, unless you are out on the plains or on the edge of a bluff. You need more wind than you think, and it should be straight undisturbed wind, not the type that winds around trees. Water power I'm not very knowledgable about, but I understand it can be a good supplement. And you are not taking the water, just using its power, so it should not affect anyone's rights.

[lilbluehonda]

There is a difference in quality of batteries Trojans are among best T-105's even Trojans last between 4 to 5 years they go for around 165.00 ea. I've gone threw two sets of T-105's in the last 8 years I've switched over to L-16's that are nearly twice as big and last nearly twice as long people don't usually use 24 T-105's the room they take up and the extra hassle with the up keep make it impractical ,I didn't start doing this stuff yesterday PS I would never move out of California for all it's faults it's still over all one of the best places in the world to live and I was born and raised here

[BoFuller]

With that many batteries I would move up from the T-105 for sure. Have you looked into a forklift battery? I've heard they last over 20 years, and you have less cables, connections, etc. That's what I'll be looking at when I finish the log home. For now the T-105's are sufficient. And when I finish the house, I'll move the T-105 setup out to the garage.
As for CA, you can have it. It's a great place to visit, but I'll never live there again. To each his own. I'm glad you like it. :)
May your L-16s last a long time!

[lilbluehonda]

I'd have to build an entire new power room and move everything and they not cheap

[rawson]

Any of you folks tried to make your own solar panels? I was tempted to purchase solar cells 1000 watts worth off of Ebay in the three hundred dollar range, but apprehension keeps me one click away. Have seen Web sites where folks do all the assembly, it doesn't appear to complex. As for self sufficiency I've wintered out well in my location, N.central Idaho. Am on the electric grid a plus and cheap, had 10 cords of firewood put up before Winter started still about seven remaining. Plenty of water also, catch snow melt/rain off of the roof, for washing clothes and flushing toilets, have a year round spring fed creek, plus a 200' well 10 gpm with a 3000 gallon concrete tank in a daylight basement. Temps in this basement range from 45 to 60 degrees years round without heat, it is ventilated. It sure does make a big difference it a person can afford it a basement is a good investment. Check out the nickel iron batteries, a life time battery expensive thou , and I am a bit long in the tooth for those at those prices.

[lilbluehonda]

Any of you folks tried to make your own solar panels? I was tempted to purchase solar cells 1000 watts worth off of Ebay in the three hundred dollar range, but apprehension keeps me one click away. Have seen Web sites where folks do all the assembly, it doesn't appear to complex. As for self sufficiency I've wintered out well in my location, N.central Idaho. Am on the electric grid a plus and cheap, had 10 cords of firewood put up before Winter started still about seven remaining. Plenty of water also, catch snow melt/rain off of the roof, for washing clothes and flushing toilets, have a year round spring fed creek, plus a 200' well 10 gpm with a 3000 gallon concrete tank in a daylight basement. Temps in this basement range from 45 to 60 degrees years round without heat, it is ventilated. It sure does make a big difference it a person can afford it a basement is a good investment. Check out the nickel iron batteries, a life time battery expensive thou , and I am a bit long in the tooth for those at those prices.

It isn't worth it when you can buy complete panels this cheap that will actually work
http://www.sunelec.com/

[BoFuller]

Ditto that. It's just not worth it when they are so cheap.

[exsailor]

We can make self sufficiency easier with power we generate, but conservation is the key to power self sufficiency. Granted LED lighting is easier to read by than candle light. Power with dependable availability comes from integrating multiple power generating sources, such as wind and solar. I have an idea that may smack of a perpetual motion machine, but it really isn’t. I have often wondered if you couldn't use a water ram to move water up into a tank. You could then use the fall from the tank to turn small water turbine for hydro power generation. You are using the kinetic energy of the moving water to “Ram Pump” the water into a tank. The water in the tank then has potential energy released through small water turbine which in turn rotates a generator head creating electricity.
I realize the hydro-system would empty the tank, and the ram pump couldn't keep up with the flow demand of the hydro system. It wouldn’t necessarily be a continuous run system but one that operates in cycles. One when the tank is full, you are generating power, and off when the tank is filling, the water turbine is in standby not generating power, so on and so forth. It would be run for "charging sessions" to keep a battery bank charged, as the water is discharged through the water turbine. You might even be able to make the charging sessions somewhat automated dependant on the tank levels. It seems like it would be free power because the inefficient ram pump would fill your tank and gravity could return the water through your hydro- system back into the feed stream, so you don't run afoul of downstream use, like you would if you made a dam. It also wouldn't cause a flood, because there would not be a damn to break. Well just some idle thoughts that I think would work. Does anybody have any ideas why this wouldn’t work?

[BoFuller]

I know a ram works and I know you can generate from a turbine, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't connect them.

[StressMan79]

sure it is possible, but

you have to conserve,

You have to be smart,

You have to match what you have to what you need, that is size your system correctly.

I would still recommend a small genny for emergencies.

You mention that MH is lacking during the summer. that may be true, but solar output is at its highest. If you have access to MH, I'd go for it, hands down.

[edkemper]

A generator isn't to run the house but to charge the batteries, right? Or are we speaking of a generator of a size to operate all your immediate needs?

[lilbluehonda]

You may need to do both,I have a small 5.5 HP Honda motor that runs a car alt. to charge the batteries when there's no sun then I have a 7000 Watt gen. that I run when I'm doing the wash Running a washer and dryer and a water pump take a lot of power and when I have to run the big gen. I have a couple of electric heaters I use also

[exsailor]

My Idea was to use a generator to charge batteries, not run a house. The hydro would also be a supplement to either a wing or solar system. I think think the beauty of my idea is as long as you have enough current flow to operate the ram pump it continues to maintain it's charge cycle on and off depending on water tank level. Obviously it would work day and night as long as you had water flow.

[BenB]

I won't even try to decipher all this stuff.

Easy question for someone maybe - who actually uses solar only, no juice from a power line, and thinks it's a viable deal.
I found 260 acres deep in the woods with just a US gubbermint Forestry road that can be used to access it from 3 sides. They actually do keep it open year round but may take them a day to do so.
It was logged in the early 30s so it's not true old growth timber but there are huge red pines everywhere. The real beauty - dirt cheap. I mean dang near free dirt cheap, under $17 an acre. There is another parcel on opposite side of the road and whoever it is started to build a big old coped bugger thats 40 x 45-48.... swiss cope! He's probably been on it for about 100 years. lol Beautiful home and wish he was around so I could sneak over. I got close but then he had posted no tresspassing about 100' feet from door. He has cleared for a drainfield recently it appears and a well is in with 2 hand pumps outside. I saw a few solar panels and suspect that is the only way he could be doing it unless he has generators stashed all over
No doubt there is stuff on the other side but after reading this thread I wonder how much on the net is good and how much is salesmanship.
So solar folks - share please. PLEASE

[lilbluehonda]

I've been living off the grid and I'm in the middle of the forest,in the winter I do have to use a generator to charge my batteries the sun just gets too low in the sky to get more than a couple of hours but it getting better like today it was sunny and there's a couple of feet of snow on the ground and at 3:00 my charge controller was cycling on and off so I won't have to run the gen. tonite and you do need a good sized area free of trees facing south and the further north you go the more panels you need to make up for the lack of sun,one good thing is the price of solar panels is really cheap right now,way cheaper than they've ever been and I've heard the price is suppose to go up so now would be the time to by

[BoFuller]

I won't even try to decipher all this stuff.

Easy question for someone maybe - who actually uses solar only, no juice from a power line, and thinks it's a viable deal.
I found 260 acres deep in the woods with just a US gubbermint Forestry road that can be used to access it from 3 sides. They actually do keep it open year round but may take them a day to do so.
It was logged in the early 30s so it's not true old growth timber but there are huge red pines everywhere. The real beauty - dirt cheap. I mean dang near free dirt cheap, under $17 an acre. There is another parcel on opposite side of the road and whoever it is started to build a big old coped bugger thats 40 x 45-48.... swiss cope! He's probably been on it for about 100 years. lol Beautiful home and wish he was around so I could sneak over. I got close but then he had posted no tresspassing about 100' feet from door. He has cleared for a drainfield recently it appears and a well is in with 2 hand pumps outside. I saw a few solar panels and suspect that is the only way he could be doing it unless he has generators stashed all over
No doubt there is stuff on the other side but after reading this thread I wonder how much on the net is good and how much is salesmanship.
So solar folks - share please. PLEASE

There's a couple sites that I think are very good. Backwoods Solar is one and the other is Northern Arizona Wind and Solar. The later has an excellent forum where you can ask questions.

[StressMan79]

BenB,

depends where you live. In arizona, solar is no problem. In GA, you'd hate life in the summer--it is hot and humid and you wouldn't be able to run a swamp cooler. (and they are basically the same latitude). southern exposure is required. a mild climate that doesn't take too much cooling is pretty good, and a good stove for wood burning is required too.

My place is mainly for summer living as there is a mile of dirt road that is steep and gets snowed in.

But cheers, you have found a home that is not trying to sell you anything!

-Peter

[lilbluehonda]

If you do more research you will find you can do things like run a Swamp cooler on Solar Backwoods Solar has a few different sizes that take very little power to operate 50 to 80 watts

BenB,

depends where you live. In arizona, solar is no problem. In GA, you'd hate life in the summer--it is hot and humid and you wouldn't be able to run a swamp cooler. (and they are basically the same latitude). southern exposure is required. a mild climate that doesn't take too much cooling is pretty good, and a good stove for wood burning is required too.

My place is mainly for summer living as there is a mile of dirt road that is steep and gets snowed in.

But cheers, you have found a home that is not trying to sell you anything!

-Peter

[lilbluehonda]

We can make self sufficiency easier with power we generate, but conservation is the key to power self sufficiency. Granted LED lighting is easier to read by than candle light. Power with dependable availability comes from integrating multiple power generating sources, such as wind and solar. I have an idea that may smack of a perpetual motion machine, but it really isn’t. I have often wondered if you couldn't use a water ram to move water up into a tank. You could then use the fall from the tank to turn small water turbine for hydro power generation. You are using the kinetic energy of the moving water to “Ram Pump” the water into a tank. The water in the tank then has potential energy released through small water turbine which in turn rotates a generator head creating electricity.
I realize the hydro-system would empty the tank, and the ram pump couldn't keep up with the flow demand of the hydro system. It wouldn’t necessarily be a continuous run system but one that operates in cycles. One when the tank is full, you are generating power, and off when the tank is filling, the water turbine is in standby not generating power, so on and so forth. It would be run for "charging sessions" to keep a battery bank charged, as the water is discharged through the water turbine. You might even be able to make the charging sessions somewhat automated dependant on the tank levels. It seems like it would be free power because the inefficient ram pump would fill your tank and gravity could return the water through your hydro- system back into the feed stream, so you don't run afoul of downstream use, like you would if you made a dam. It also wouldn't cause a flood, because there would not be a damn to break. Well just some idle thoughts that I think would work. Does anybody have any ideas why this wouldn’t work?

The power company around here does something similar,they have a reservoir in the mountains during the day when power demand is high they run the water down hill to turbines at night when it's low they reverse the flow and pump the water back,if you have enough water to run a ram pump then you'd have enough to run a small hydro,ram pumps couldn't lift the water high enough to work,if you don't have a lot of fall from your water it take massive amounts to make any usable power,even a small low head hydro needs 500 gallons a minute,there are many small hydro sites on the net most of them have fall tables that show how much drop and volume you need to make power and there are also many ram pump sites that can show you what a ram pump can do,look it up you'll see whats possible

[StressMan79]

If you do more research you will find you can do things like run a Swamp cooler on Solar Backwoods Solar has a few different sizes that take very little power to operate 50 to 80 watts

I was saying that swamp coolers work well in arid climates. Not well at all in humid climes. so GA would not work, but AZ would. This is due to the psychometric chart of water.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm471/stressman79/summerpsy.jpg

-Peter

[BenB]

I quit - I will go without any power if necessary. lol
No way can I grasp all this "stuff" --- my summers will require not much at all to cool but winters are like -20 to - 40F around
This whole solar thing may be more than I want to bite off I am starting to sense. :confused:

[lilbluehonda]

I was saying that swamp coolers work well in arid climates. Not well at all in humid climes. so GA would not work, but AZ would. This is due to the psychometric chart of water.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm471/stressman79/summerpsy.jpg

-Peter
I here I thought it was just the dampness of the air but after looking at the charts and graphs I don't know what the hell it is

[edkemper]

Peter,

You'll understand if I say I love what you bring to this forum? ;)

[rreidnauer]

I here I thought it was just the dampness of the air but after looking at the charts and graphs I don't know what the hell it is

Now that's funny!

[StressMan79]

good thing you don't really have to know how to read it, you just need to know that dry air absorbs more water than wet air, and in doing so takes more heat. I included the psychometric chart cuz that is how I roll...

heat is heat, so if you are burning wood, you can still go solar, but with those temps, i suspect you live in Canada, eh? the problem is the further away from the equator you get, the bigger difference you get between summer and winter irradiation, so in order to have enough solar in the winter, you have to way outproduce in the summer. Luckily, in some locales, it gets windier in the winter, so you can offset the diminished solar with more wind--but you have to add a whole other system.

On an aside, if I lived in guatemala, I'd never think twice about going off grid.

[Mosseyme]

Being in the medical field Psyco was the only thing I got out of that. HA!

[loghousenut]

I was saying that swamp coolers work well in arid climates. Not well at all in humid climes. so GA would not work, but AZ would. This is due to the psychometric chart of water.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm471/stressman79/summerpsy.jpg

-Peter

Somehow Peter (Stressman) has used the load/reach capacity chart off of my Gradall 534C-9 telehandler to explain the relationship between sweat and cooling without air conditioning. I think he has pretty much nailed whatever it is and I'm pretty sure he's right. I agree with him on this one... Perhaps.


Remember, he's just climbed out from under his own GD car.

Haha.

[Bill LaCrosse]

LOL...you guys kill me! I use the old weather stone...
If the rock is wet, it's raining.
If the rock is swinging, the wind is blowing.
If the rock casts a shadow, the sun is shining.
If the rock does not cast a shadow and is not wet, the sky is cloudy.
If the rock is not visible, it is foggy.
If the rock is white, it is snowing.
If the rock is coated with ice, there is a frost.
If the ice is thick, it's a heavy frost.
If the rock is bouncing, there is an earthquake.
If the rock is under water, there is a flood.
If the rock is warm, it is sunny.
If the rock is missing, there was a tornado.
If the rock is wet and swinging violently, there is a hurricane.

[BoFuller]

Ed,

Another thing I read is that the floors of those containers are treated with some of the most powerful pesticides in the world. Ones that are not even legal in the U.S. Think about how they don't want bugs going from country to country, or destroying anything inside. One site recommends replacing the wood flooring if you use it as a place for food or making it into a living quarters. I just use mine for a garage for the tractor and the quads, so I think I'm okay. But I don't think I want one for food and supply storage.

[Timberwolf]

LOL...you guys kill me! I use the old weather stone...
If the rock is wet, it's raining.
If the rock is swinging, the wind is blowing.
If the rock casts a shadow, the sun is shining.
If the rock does not cast a shadow and is not wet, the sky is cloudy.
If the rock is not visible, it is foggy.
If the rock is white, it is snowing.
If the rock is coated with ice, there is a frost.
If the ice is thick, it's a heavy frost.
If the rock is bouncing, there is an earthquake.
If the rock is under water, there is a flood.
If the rock is warm, it is sunny.
If the rock is missing, there was a tornado.
If the rock is wet and swinging violently, there is a hurricane.

If the rock is missing... there are thieves around...

[BoFuller]

Ed,

Another thing I read is that the floors of those containers are treated with some of the most powerful pesticides in the world. Ones that are not even legal in the U.S. Think about how they don't want bugs going from country to country, or destroying anything inside. One site recommends replacing the wood flooring if you use it as a place for food or making it into a living quarters. I just use mine for a garage for the tractor and the quads, so I think I'm okay. But I don't think I want one for food and supply storage.

Okay, this was supposed to be in the 'log root cellar" thread. I forgot where I was. ;)

[edkemper]

Thanks Bo.

[ronwoodcraft]

It's getting harder and harder to live self sustaining. Why? Let me give you a few examples. I just started researching what it takes to get a house number assigned to a property. While it may not apply to my state, I was reading where one state issues a house number when you apply to have electric connected to it. So, what happens if you build off-grid? Hmmmm.
Another example which will apply to me. My state now requires fire sprinkler systems. So, if I don't have city water, I have to have a holding tank, pump and power to run it. Will the state tell me my solar equipment is insufficient to run the pump? Hmmmm.
Speaking of requiring power, the septic must be a pressure type system. No gravity feed systems are allowed in PA anymore. I haven't even tested the waters yet (pun intended) about rainwater catchment. The state may demand I use public water or drill a well. (and back to the power thing)
For heat, they won't allow only a wood burning heating device. (the one true independent heating source) I have to install something that will require it's energy from an outside supplier, whether that be gas, oil, or electric. (though, the law doesn't say I have to use it)
I also know they are running public water and sewer by my property, and wonder how long until it will be required that I'd be tied into it.

It's sad to say, but true, independent, self-sustaining lifestyles will be phased out whether we like it or not. I don't see any way this will be avoided. There simply aren't enough people willing to live such a lifestyle to oppose the loss of independence's being forced upon us. The best we can do is get built ASAP and grandfathered in before it's no longer possible.This is exactly why I don't know what to say when someone says "Don't forget to thank a vet for your FREEDOM."

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Ow, Peter! My brain hurts! Abbey had a hard time with those charts... Abby Normal.


The power in my area is so unreliable that people just shrug when it goes down for a while. I heard a noise last summer, it was the neighbor's generator. Didn't think I could hear it that far away. I had no idea the power had even been off. Gassifiers, and rocket stoves for cooking and heating water (it only sounds like deprivation. It's actually enjoyable but not as convenient as a microwave and electric hot water tank. Still, I don't mind), vacuum container for storing hot water. Propane heat w/ wood furnace (not yet installed) back-up. The propane is so cheap and has been working so well that the wood furnace is just for the propane furnace repair insurance. LED lighting. The LED lighting I have is great, but the new LED lighting is phenominal. Had my eye on a 22" LCD TV and 8 watt DVD player. The pair came to 38 watts @ 120Vac. "Sunshine to Dollars" show how to make ice for a few cents (ice, catch bucket, good insulation, and a Wal-Mart box fan will keep you cold when the temps go over 100F. Freeze the ice in a metal bucket with a catch bucket below it and blow air over the metal bucket. Automatic dehumidifier (ok in my northern climate, might be over powered by southern state humidity). Keep food cold with no power thanks to four mile island technology: http://fourmileisland.com/IceBox.htm (not yet installed) pumping water is not a concern, laundry is no problem, freezer is no problem. Really, my only concern is the blow dryer and table saw.

Somewhere I have a link for LiFe Po batteries. We now finally have batteries that cost less per Kwh than the good 'ol Trojans, however they come with a hefty up-front surcharge. My preference is still for the deep cycle AGM. My kindest treatment for wet cell batteries could easily be called abuse. They must be left in the cold, discharge from only occasional use, and be moved periodically. Sometimes they are discharged too deeply. AGM doesn't like those conditions either, but they can tolerate it a little bit better.

Also a big thanks for the solar panel link. I can build 70W @ 16Vdc for less than $125. At $1/W I can't begin to make my own.

G'pa

[rreidnauer]

Hey G'pa
That reminds me, I have a 19" LCD TV with built in DVD in the trailer. I was happy to see it draw just 34 watts when playing a DVD, but better still 0 watts when it's turned off.

I've been playing around with the idea of taking it apart to see if I can run it straight off 12 volts.

[lilbluehonda]

I did that with my computer speakers seems pretty stupid to have to take 12V convert it to 110 then transform back to 12V only problem is my speakers work but also hum
Hey G'pa
That reminds me, I have a 19" LCD TV with built in DVD in the trailer. I was happy to see it draw just 34 watts when playing a DVD, but better still 0 watts when it's turned off.

I've been playing around with the idea of taking it apart to see if I can run it straight off 12 volts.

[StressMan79]

I did that with my computer speakers seems pretty stupid to have to take 12V convert it to 110 then transform back to 12V only problem is my speakers work but also hum


you might try a "SEPIC" unit. You can build one for a couple bucks worth of parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter

I suspect that hum is from overvoltage on the electronic bits (a 12 V battery puts out >12 V at full charge). by running a controller on the voltage, you should be able to stop this.

[loghousenut]

Doesn't work that way Peter. Even when I'm hooked directly to the SEPTIC unit I hum. My Wife has tried for years and can't find a way to stop it. I think you just have to live with it.


http://www.musicmotion.com/product.htm?pid=621680

[HardmanGT]

Silly question, are you using sine wave inverters or modified sine? It's my understanding that the less expensive modified sine wave inverters are noisy and some electronics don't play nice together. I know that my laptop power supply always runs hot when using the mod inverter on my boat.

[BoFuller]

I have been looking for some 55 gal drums for storing anything and everything from fuel to food. New ones have been going for around $100 but I found a local guy that is selling the metal ones for $15 each and the food grade blue plastic ones for $25. Friday I picked up 4 of each. I'll use 2 metal ones for diesel and 2 for gasoline. The food ones will get stocked with large cans of dried food, paper goods, etc. Now I need to get those root cellars made so they don't cook in the sun this summer.

[StressMan79]

Silly question, are you using sine wave inverters or modified sine? It's my understanding that the less expensive modified sine wave inverters are noisy and some electronics don't play nice together. I know that my laptop power supply always runs hot when using the mod inverter on my boat.

that is true, but I think he was running speakers directly off batteries, so no inverter.

[StressMan79]

oh, and I think we all can agree that LHN is a rascal...

[stamic55]

you might try a "SEPIC" unit. You can build one for a couple bucks worth of parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-ended_primary-inductor_converter

I suspect that hum is from overvoltage on the electronic bits (a 12 V battery puts out >12 V at full charge). by running a controller on the voltage, you should be able to stop this.

Sorry to keep this highjack going, but you could use a 12VDC regulator from radioshack if you wanted to maintain 12V. It's less than $2.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062600

My laptop speakers hum and they get the power from the USB port. I haven't taken the time to worry about it though.

[lilbluehonda]

Sorry to keep this highjack going, but you could use a 12VDC regulator from radioshack if you wanted to maintain 12V. It's less than $2.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062600


My laptop speakers hum and they get the power from the USB port. I haven't taken the time to worry about it though.
That looks EZr than building one but how do you connect it?

[StressMan79]

unless I'm mistaken, you have Power voltage in, Power voltage out and Ground. Also, I suspect that this is a "shunt" converter. that means it dumps excess power to heat. it will stop your speakers from humming, but it will result in almost as much heat generated as if you used an inverter/transformer/rectifier...

And the power rating of this is for small electronics. it has a rating of 1A, but there were replies that said it crapped out at .1 A.

still waiting for an off the shelf solution that is cheap, scalable, and reliable.

oh I guess you have to look up the spec sheet online. Not good.

[blane]

We raise chickens and when we wound up with two roosters one had to go so we butchered one of them. It was not a problem for me or my son but two of my daughters really had a hard time with it. My 4 year old says(as she is eating the chicken we butchered) I will not eat Digory and please do not kill him again.:)[QUOTE=BarstowRat;59077]I have no issues with hunting and had intended on raising animals for feed. Butchering doesn't bother me, and neither does the hard work.

[jrdavis]

Blane,

I always tell people just starting out "that it don't matter to you, until the killing starts".
We had some friends that moved to the country for the Y2K scare and bought goats for meat.
When it came down to it.... they couldn't do it.
guess who was called? I love Blackened leg of lamb and goat :+)

I just ordered 25 chicks to start my egg raising again.
My aunt raises 2-3000 every year for butchering and eggs.
Can't wait to get "the ladies" to producing.....

JD

[StressMan79]

so as far as SEPIC design... check out this page. It is much more informative than Wilipedia.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt309/slyt309.pdf

-Peter

[Will Dye]

I'd google root cellars, microhydro, rocket stoves, aquaponics, join permies.com and all THAT ought to give you a headache by the time you read through half of what you find.

[jjohn]

I'd google root cellars, microhydro, rocket stoves, aquaponics, join permies.com and all THAT ought to give you a headache by the time you read through half of what you find.

Will, respectfully, sorry to disagree,but the purpose for joining permies is for a good laugh, not serious discussion, not for learning relevant info.
The last time I checked he claimed 6000 members, and I do believe he has had that many sign up, but if I had to estimate I would guess he has kicked at least 5000 off.
He doesnt delete their posts or membership just locks the account. He keeps them listed for what I suspect is economic interests ( claiming larger numbers for maybe adverti$ing reasons) Read through the posts, and topics, you will notice many bright articulate people who make a few posts, and then nothing more is heard from them.
What has happened is these people have asked for supporting data, questioned a premise,wanted to discuss a topic, the operator of the forum didnt want brought up. Sadly many good topics like you suggest, rocket stoves for example cant be discussed frankly, or in comparison with other types as a honest exchange of info is not incouraged, and will be stoped. Note the high post count individuals, they are the ones always agreeing with the forum operator, if you dont you will be band, he clearly states so himself, its his forurm,and if you do not support his opinion you will be band.
I suspect that forum has little more than a few hundered, of what I will be kind in suggesting are agreeable, followers.
Far more can be learned at otherpower.com, or better yet anotherpower.com, or microcogen.com . Places where data, facts, and rational thought hold the day. There are few such places, so please support, and give your energies, and contributions to them.

John

[exsailor]

I have been looking for some 55 gal drums for storing anything and everything from fuel to food. New ones have been going for around $100 but I found a local guy that is selling the metal ones for $15 each and the food grade blue plastic ones for $25. Friday I picked up 4 of each. I'll use 2 metal ones for diesel and 2 for gasoline. The food ones will get stocked with large cans of dried food, paper goods, etc. Now I need to get those root cellars made so they don't cook in the sun this summer.

Bo,
Are you going to use stabil or some other gasoline stabilizer, when you store gasoline? Have you given any thought to gasoline breaking down over time? Last I heard "real gas" without ethanol is good for 6 month to a year before it starts breaking down. I don't even want to get into what ethanol does to modern fuel pumps, carburetors, and any rubber in fuel lines.

[rreidnauer]

Gasoline/diesel/kerosene etc are great for when things are all fine and dandy or during a short-term crisis, but I wouldn't think you'd want to rely on such a thing for long term bug-out conditions. You need something which you can use for fuel, but without dependence of something you can't produce yourself. I'd have to say concentrate focus on wood gas. With that, you can do just about anything. Power a (larger) generator, a vehicle, make heat, etc. It's really the only option for a true, long-term, non-dependent, multi-use fuel source.

[StressMan79]

rod, we are waiting with bated breath for the reidnaur woodgas generator design. There are lots on the internet, some based on FEMA designs, some that claim to be better...But none that I'd "go with."

I have a genny that I plan on running off of woodgas, just waiting for your design, o renewable one.

-Peter

[Mosseyme]

and while you are at it throw a design to convert an old motorhome Onan gen to hydro/wood.

[BoFuller]

Bo,
Are you going to use stabil or some other gasoline stabilizer, when you store gasoline? Have you given any thought to gasoline breaking down over time? Last I heard "real gas" without ethanol is good for 6 month to a year before it starts breaking down. I don't even want to get into what ethanol does to modern fuel pumps, carburetors, and any rubber in fuel lines.

My friend who works in the petroleum industry said with the right additives, you can store gas and diesel for 10 years. I will keep rotating it, but plan to always have 100 gallons of each on hand. Primary reason for gas is for the chainsaws. You can't run that wood gasifier if you can't get wood!

[rreidnauer]

You got a plan "B" if/when the fuel is exhausted, right?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/crosscut_saws-1.jpg

Hey! It just hit me. I figured out how I can make my log splitter of doom people powered! Hope I never have to do that, but at least it's good to know I could.

[donjuedo]

Gasoline/diesel/kerosene etc are great for when things are all fine and dandy or during a short-term crisis, but I wouldn't think you'd want to rely on such a thing for long term bug-out conditions. You need something which you can use for fuel, but without dependence of something you can't produce yourself. I'd have to say concentrate focus on wood gas. With that, you can do just about anything. Power a (larger) generator, a vehicle, make heat, etc. It's really the only option for a true, long-term, non-dependent, multi-use fuel source.

Hi, Rod,

I looked into wood gas awhile back, and really like the idea. I joined a discussion list, read a lot, then posted. Here is a snippet and the reply:

> I see lots of experimentation here. How realistic would I be to hope
> for a low/no maintenance gasifier? Ideally, for me, getting a system
> working would be fun, and then I'd want to move on to other interests.
>
>
>> One of the big advantages of Gasification systems is that they
>> require attention on an ongoing basis, and will give you years of on-
>> going enjoyment.. ;-)


The reply is funny, and I haven't given up hope. You're good at researching and then taking the bull by the horns, coming up with a practical design. I'm betting you have the same perspective I have, too, "low/no maintenance". Any chance you'll be taking this on?


Peter (not the Stressman :-) )

[BoFuller]

You got a plan "B" if/when the fuel is exhausted, right?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/crosscut_saws-1.jpg


Yeah, I have that plan "B", but I hope I don't have to resort to it. :D

[rreidnauer]

Peter and Peter,

I just don't have the time or resources at my disposal to work on that experiment at the moment. Perhaps once I'm moved out to the property, I can start toying around with the concept on rainy days.


I don't see any way to have a low/no maintenance wood gasifier. There are two tasks that (with any wood burning device) need to be done. Load biomass and remove ash. Since the gasifier itself is airtight, you can't rig a conveyor system to handle those functions.

[donjuedo]

Peter and Peter,

I just don't have the time or resources at my disposal to work on that experiment at the moment. Perhaps once I'm moved out to the property, I can start toying around with the concept on rainy days.


I don't see any way to have a low/no maintenance wood gasifier. There are two tasks that (with any wood burning device) need to be done. Load biomass and remove ash. Since the gasifier itself is airtight, you can't rig a conveyor system to handle those functions.

The load and unload is no problem, in my opinion. The discussion list refers to much tweaking, adjusting, and general experimentation, and that's the sort of thing that seems like it should have been worked out by now.

I understand about time and resources, being especially short of both lately. Would you measure your time to move in months or years? Also, how far from York are you (or gonna be)? My brothers and I got together recently for the "Hit n Miss" engine show up there. Fun stuff.


Peter

[rreidnauer]

Yea, I've stepped up researching wood gasification. All the "tweaking and adjusting" comes from just as you say, general experimenting. Seems everyone is attempting to build their own unit, based loosely off the FEMA plans, and working through the maintenance and efficiency issues. I think when I get to the point where I'm ready to tackle practical woodgas operations, I think I'm going to leave all the trial-and-error part behind me, and purchase a proven design. I really been reading up and watching videos on the GEK gasifier. They sell everything from CAD drawings to turn-key power production units. I was considering buying their "you-weld-it" kit, ($1800) which provides all the hardware, and metal all precut, and all one has to do is weld and assemble. Then I watched the welding instructional video, and that changed my mind about buying the weld-it kit. For the immense amount of welding required, the extra cost is easily justified in buying a complete unit instead, ($3000) with the additional bonus that it is stainless steel when purchased complete. Then they have other options like the LOTTI, which is a combination gas cooler/biomass pre-dryer, (clever use of waste heat) and an electronic control unit for automation. But I'd have to leave those options off, as the prices start to get too much for me.

York is about two hours from where I'm currently at and the property. I've been to a large steam show out there, held every October. York seems to be an epicenter for antique power. But don't dismiss other remote places like Coolspring, PA. Big show/museum there, with some pretty big engines.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/IMG_0507.jpg

[fabincabin]

Another example which will apply to me. My state now requires fire sprinkler systems. So, if I don't have city water, I have to have a holding tank, pump and power to run it. Will the state tell me my solar equipment is insufficient to run the pump? Hmmmm.

The Home fire sprinkler mandate has been repealed in Pennsylvania. Chalk one up for freedom! Pa, where I also live, does not sit very high among freedom loving states.

[jrdavis]

Thats awesome.

I've wondered HOW that could have been passed 'statewide'.
I'm happy for you Pennsylvania-ites....

But I'm not sure if I'm happy or bewildered (or both).
Certainly a WIN for Liberty Minded ones.
Thanks for passing it on.

JD

[Peach1956]

It's all about what the government wants to know. It's illegal to keep more than a certain amount of cash on hand. Why? Because the government is unable to track your activities. The claim is that it's all about the illegal drugs. Yet few of us are part of that system and yet we've lost our privacy because drugs are the excuse. As I'm learning about Canada, I can never get away from U.S. Taxes. Even if I move to Canada, work in Canada, invest in Canada, I still have to file U.S. Taxes. Living off-grid, how are they going to charge you for being here and using the U.S. owned sun? A recent trial proved that anything you buy with your credit card is public information available for use to file criminal charges for anything they find.

It's getting harder and harder to remove yourself from the hustle and costs of government.

What the Govt don't know, won't hurt you

[Fred Penick]

This is exactly why I don't know what to say when someone says "Don't forget to thank a vet for your FREEDOM."
Read your post, looks like you are up against several Building code obstacles. One thing I can tell you about public water and sewer coming past your property; is that unfortunately or perhaps fortunately if you are still planning your build, The water and sewer authority is going to require that you connect to the system. If your build will take a few years this may be to your advantage.
Fred

[Jane Doe]

Don't know if anyone's read about the Stone Camp in PA. They've been living off grid for 36 years. I just stumbled on their book and found it encouraging.

I'm DIYing an indoor hydroponics garden next weekend to see how green my thumb is. Took a while to research it but I think I've got the gist of the process. Gonna start with salad stuffs until I get good enough to attempt real vegetables. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=362899297112290&l=14eabc8ce7

Was curious if any other log homers have tried hydropic-ing?

[edkemper]

I have a couple of hydroponic growing systems. I have stopped using them since I got married and don't have the space. But I won't sell off the systems because I will use them once I move. Great fast way to grow but you can't really do it organically.

[Jane Doe]

The setup I've rigged is a deep water culture system with two 34 quart bins that will each have an air stone and each air stone will have an airline out to one air pump with dual ports. I was able to drill 12 holes in each. The 24 net cups will enable me to attempt growing 7 salad stuffs (red leaf lettuce, green leaf lettuce, endives, spinach, sweet peppers, parsley, and cilantro). I might drill 2 more holes in each bin so that I can have flowers through the winter.

I was surprised that this simple setup was somewhat expensive, even though I purchased everything as cheap as I could find. But I suppose that's the case with any new hobby which requires all the startup materials. The grow light was the most costly and the PVC setup to hang the light was the second most costly, and so far the total cost is hovering around $400-ish. The education behind the dollar amount, however, has been priceless (and fun!).

Why can't you really do it organically, though?

[edkemper]

Hydroponics is without soil. Liquid provides all nutrient needs. Greenhouse hydroponics doesn't require grow lights.

[Christofori]

You can do a whole lot to reduce your reliance on "Da Man".

In most places if you connect to the grid but have your own photovoltaic system, you can feed that extra electricity into the grid, for which you get a credit against the electricity you pull from the grid, over night and in the winter, because you can hook the house without batteries, the system costs are way lower, and as long as the power grid continues to function you hill have little or no real bills for electricity, the last figures I have seen suggest that with a moderate solar array, you are at a full return on the investment in 6 - 7 years, considering federal, state and electricity company subsidies.

With a larger solar arrays, you could, (theoretically), make a profit.

If you are going with a battery bank, you can buy fork lift or golf cart batteries, to build up you battery bank, if you do this and add to the system on a 3 or 6 monthly cycle, so that at the 5 to 6 year mark you are maintaining the system by only adding one or two batteries on that same 3 or 6 month cycle, rotating a more constant lower number of batteries each cycle, rather than the whole battery bank in one hit.

With green systems for food production even to organic standards, take a look at aquaculture and hydroponics, (fish farming and water farming), there is now another system called aquaponics, it needs greenhouses for Northern Climates, and sun shading for Southern climes, but you feed the fish, the fish grow and excrete ammonia, friendly bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrogen enriched food for the plants, the plants take in the nutrients, and clean the water that then goes back to the fish.

If you include composting and worm farms to reduce wastage from the veg that is grown in the deep flow troughs, by looking at the system as a whole you get closer to what nature does, but in a more controlled environment!

It is showing good results, you can add in other live stock that eats the veg, the worms can be feed to the fish, the waste leaf and fruits from the veg farm side feeds the worms, and the compost heap, the worms feed the fish, the compost and additional worms can be sold to other people, the fish produce nutrients for the veg, and can be sold in their own right, and any leftover food and fish poop can make super rich nutrient "Tea", that can also be sold to other gardeners to help their flower growth.

[edkemper]

I can only speak to CA on producing power that you sell back to the power company.

Here's how it works.

Rule #1 - You are not a power company. You cannot sell power for a profit. (Can you say monopoly)

You can produce up to what you need per year for a zero balance with the power company. (Although you'd probably still have to pay the monthly fee for belonging to it). If you produce 101% of what you use, or 300% of what you use, the power company will say thank you. They would not have to pay for it. The good part is they pay you retail for the power you produce up to what you use.

So unless the laws change, we can't make a profit from excess power we produce. However, before you take this wrong, I agree something is very wrong with the present system. Why can't we produce as much as we want at a profit to help. It would seem to me that getting a little bit from a few hundred million private households would help stabilize the system as a whole.

[donjuedo]

In some, if not all, areas, power companies have split the price into energy and distribution (power lines, etc.). So if you buy electricity, the total is normal. But if you sell electricity to the power company, you only charge them for energy but you don't get to charge for the distribution, naturally. It is obviously in their best interest to charge less for energy, and more for distribution.

My brother in Purcellville, Virginia produces close to the amount he uses, and he sells back to the power company. I have not yet heard anything about a cap of any kind, though. He had to install a special meter that measures energy flow in each direction, separately. All in all, I don't think he has a cap of any kind. I will ask, though, and if I'm mistaken, I will post a follow up note.

By the way, you can see lots of good info on his own system here:

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/LkCY5698

Each of his many panels drive an MPPT inverter, which reports data to a centralized system. So when his chimney casts a shadow on a panel, it does not limit output of other panels (they're not connected in series). In the drawing on the page above, the big rectangle is the main house, the small rectangle to the right of that is the attached home office, and the diagonal strip is the barn. Those on the barn are particularly interesting because the "panels" come as a roll, maybe 2 feet in diameter, and unrolled, they fit between the standing seams of the metal roof of the barn.


Peter

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/38498_1226131711986_983387_n.jpg

[Christofori]

Thanks edkemper for the California clarification and the reminder why I don't much want to live there!

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/myhome/saveenergymoney/solarenergy/solar_consumer_guide.pdf some additional reading for the Californians around us.

Page 5 shows that the pay down credit does not include not production charges, but if you are connected to the grid at all, those charges are going to apply anyway.

I've not looked at a battery bank recently, but for my families wasteful lifestyle, I was looking at them a few years ago, and then I was told that I'd need between $6,000 and $7,000 of batteries, and to replace them on a regular cycle would be over $100 / month over 5 years, so grid attached costs are a whole lot less a month and if the rebates and allowances on installation can come close to 20% it should give 10 to 15 years productive life over recoup costs before it needs replacing, I'd hate to have to estimate electricity costs over the next couple of years, let alone 10 or 15 years down the line!

[edkemper]

Christo,

I hear ya. I plan on getting out as soon as I can.

By the way, I'm waiting for the technology to catch up to usability. I love the idea of one company I read about a while back. Each solar panel had it's own converter attached. (I think that was what was attached) It meant that one could buy say 10 panels and could add on more anytime you wanted to or needed to increase your power. A system that allowed one to grow as you choose.

It seems much more difficult for the consumer to decide from the start what you want and need without the ability to grow, without reinvesting in all new electronics.

But getting out of CA is my first step.

[donjuedo]

Christo,

By the way, I'm waiting for the technology to catch up to usability. I love the idea of one company I read about a while back. Each solar panel had it's own converter attached. (I think that was what was attached) It meant that one could buy say 10 panels and could add on more anytime you wanted to or needed to increase your power. A system that allowed one to grow as you choose.

Yup, that describes Enphase in my post above. There are likely others, too. The ones I've seen do seem kind of pricey to me, though.


Peter

[edkemper]

Peter,

By the time I get to that point, they might be better and cheaper. Seems a little more consumer friendly. Hopefully, the rules will change in the future "letting" us help out if we can afford to.

[donjuedo]

My brother in Purcellville, Virginia produces close to the amount he uses, and he sells back to the power company. I have not yet heard anything about a cap of any kind, though. He had to install a special meter that measures energy flow in each direction, separately. All in all, I don't think he has a cap of any kind. I will ask, though, and if I'm mistaken, I will post a follow up note.

OK, I asked. The answer is a tad more complicated than I said, but not much. Here's his reply:

"No cap that I know of. From month to month, any surplus carries over and we get full credit as we use it up. At the end of the year, they will pay us if we still have a surplus. That will never happen because our system is not that big. If it did happen, the payment would be no bargain. We all get billed a little for electricity and more for the distribution of electricity."


Peter

[Emailmicahsmith]

It depends on what you want powered. you can run 4 dc led lightbulb for 5 years with the solar panel and controler from harbor freight. just add a deep cycle marine battery to your attic.