Building home to sell

[BillnChristi]

Ok, I've read that we should build our home for ourselves, and then try to sell, as opposed to building it strictly for resale. And that we should build as small as we can afford, etc. But, if I am honest about this, that is our true intention...to sell the home for a profit (however small, OR large) and actually end up building several and HOPEFULLY being able to get out of this truck permanently (we are owner/operators of a tractor-trailer).

We do NOT see this as a get-rich-quick scheme, as building a quality log home will undoubtedly entail much more time, effort, expense than what we are doing now. And, if you divide the possible or expected profit by the amount of years required for building, we will net far less than we are now (I am thinking conservatively), but it is a question of which lifestyle is more desirable to us at this point in our lives. I won't get into details but truck drivers sacrifice many valuable aspects of their lives just for the almighty dollar, so have a little pity for the next one you see. :)

Anyway, we are struggling with what this first home should include. Our expectations for a home are much lower than what seems to be the standard for most homebuyers. We don't need nor want a McMansion, granite countertops, custom cabinetry, spa-like master bath, etc. But, our potential "customer" may expect that and more. But, perhaps the log home buyer is a different kind of customer and doesn't desire those things either? I guess we're having a hard time figuring out who our customer is in the first place. Is this market niche far different than the norm? Or will folks still want the same features they get in the cookie-cutter sub-division homes?

Who among you has sold homes for a profit? Was that your original intention? What did you learn in the process as far as what is deemed desirable by a log-home buyer? Are the buyers looking for 2nd home, vacation home, retirement home, or what? I wouldn't think they would include many first time home buyers, but I'm sure there are exceptions.

What features, at a minimum, should we plan on including? What is minimum square footage we should consider? Should we include energy efficiency features, such as ICF basement, SIP roof panels, etc? Or are those features lost on the general public? We would want OUR home to be energy efficient, so I kind of answered my question there, but maybe we are different.

We do hope to incorporate low cost, high value architectural details to our exterior to aid in curb appeal (would do that regardless if building for ourselves or not). As simple as unique fascia boards (if we even have those with this style).

Sorry for the lengthy post....just dreamin' and schemin' here while we wait for June. Probably a shorter way to ask the same questions, but I tend to write novels. Thanks for your patience!!

Christi

[rocklock]

With out going nuts... why not build something that you like... I'm nut sure what a McMansion is but I really like granite counter tops. The whole thing about under the counter sink really appeals to me.
The most important think to me is light. Log home always seem to be darker than they need to be. I like light. I like open design, as few wall as possible. But I am weird. I am not building to sell, but the next one I build will be as rental property... or as a bed and breakfast.
Again, I would build something you like, something that excites you.

[loghousenut]

An old hotrodder once told me....

To paint the car the color that I (or my Wife) wanted it to be. Don't try to second guess what color a future buyer will want it to be. It is your work of art and it follows your vision. If it doesn't turn out exactly like you thought it would, don't get discouraged... There will always be a market for quality.

I have never sold a building of any kind but I can tell you the way to cut costs and still end up with a beautiful, sellable product. Adhere to the LHBA teachings as much as possible. You will learn in class how to do it the simple, strong way and it'll work every time you do it if you stick to the system. Order the LHBA plan package and you'll be thousands of dollars ahead right from the get-go. Do it the way it is taught in class and it will be plenty grand and it'll have enough WOW factor to be appealling to someone else.

If it was me I would build a house to live in and if someone wanted to buy it I'd let them, but then I am not in that game so don't take my advice. I might also be inclined to build more than one small log house with the plan to rent anything that was vacant and let the tenants pay for each new one that I built. There I go again giving advice like I had the ability or the inclination. I don't.

However you do it, you are choosing a great time to do it. Nobody really knows what will happen to housing prices in the future, but it is sure a great time to BUILD a house and whatever you build will probably never be worth less than it is right now. At the least, you will end up with a home to live in.

Go for it and don't look back. I wish I had done it just after I took the class from Skip (but no regrets... I'm not looking back either).

[BillnChristi]

Thanks guys. Excellent advice..."build something that excites you" really hits home. As does "don't try to second guess what...future buyer will want it to be."

I do lean towards light colored logs (yet have seen some stained darker or left natural that are gorgeous too), lots of light via windows, and open spaces (not weird at all rocklock! lol). Might go with nice quartz countertops instead of granite, due to lower cost and maintenance, but quartz isn't a buzz-word in today's market. But they are still quite attractive, like granite. Trying to figure out cost-effective cabinetry too. Don't know if I could bring myself to spend 40k on just cabinets, even IF I could afford them. Def plan on incorporating a pantry to save on number of cabinets needed. Hubby has built cabinets of knotty pine in the past too, so that is always an option. Thinking out loud, as usual.

The thing in our case, well everyone's really, is balancing cost vs. time. I'm pretty confident that we have the skills to do 99% of the work ourselves. Hubby has done concrete, foundation, carpentry, roofing, minor plumbing and electric, and I'm a researching, organizing, documenting fool. haha We used to own a 100 yr old farmhouse that we did alot of renovation too, so I'm handy as well. Just out of shape due to 3 yrs on the truck. Yuk.

Rocklock, McMansions are behemoth homes (guessing 5000 sf plus) that all look alike. We have TONS in the Omaha area. Not sure how, but there are alot of wealthy homeowners in our area. It would be expensive to market to those folks, but may have to. Omaha area is more hilly and treed than the rest of Nebraska, and outlying areas can be downright beautiful, although hardly comparing to the gorgeous Cascades! That area also was not hit very hard by the recession. Home values dropped negligibly (sp?) and unemployment is like 3rd lowest in the U.S. Plenty of large employers as well. Due to all of this, land in the area still goes for 10-20k/acre, which I think is ridiculous. Of course, those are listed prices by realtors. It's my understanding that once its listed by a realtor, it is already over-priced. They have to earn a living too, I guess. haha

Lots of decisions to make. But, lots of time to think about it too. Thanks for the input guys.

Christi

[dazedandconfused]

Christi try 40k an acre here so there is always worse situations out there, it is all perspective. What I have been told to try is ask farmers or anyone with a bunch of land if he wants to sell off a few acres, no extra realtor fees or anything and you may just get lucky, who knows

[loghousenut]

Why quartz countertops? It is a log home. Why not slab a log and use that for countertops. Just trying to keep your brain focused on things that won't be covered in class.

PS. Formica went out of style... Granite and quartz will go out of style... I'm gonna ride the crest of the log slab countertop wave.

[BillnChristi]

Those log slab countertops are gorgeous! I'm just concerned about staining and sealing. Refinished alot of windows and doors on our old place and I never could get them completely bubble-free. And, I researched the HECk out of it! Bubbles not so noticeable on those, but on a countertop? Plus, I was trying to make it more marketable with the quartz....cheaper than granite but with real similar look. I dunno...may decide to try that again when the time comes.

[pinewood]

Build it and they shall come. Though I am in the preliminary planning stages, I am convinced that a Skip LHBA built home is a very unique investment that would not be for everybody, but those who do come will be looking more at the structure than the "pretties". However, I recently sold my suburbia master planned community home and it seemed each and every looker headed straight to the kitchen to check out the counter tops to see if they were granite. I don't get it but I guess it must be some sort of status symbol. But I do plan to put it in my kitchen since it is so natural and belongs in a log home and adds a lot to the beauty of the kitchen. Quartz is nice too but I don't think for a log home. Other than that, my "pretties" will be simple and green. Forest green metal roof, forest green window trim, forest green front door, forest green cabinets, forest green dinner plates, forest green toilet seat (ha ha). You get the picture; my home will be in the mountains and forest green colors need to be in my log home. Drywall not allowed except for green board in the showers. I will build to please me, not a potential buyer. But I think they will be pleased anyway because they will be looking to buy a beautiful rustic mountain home that will last for generations.

~Dane~

[pinewood]

After reading my above post It sounds like I will be selling it. Farthest thing from the truth. If I ever finish this project and fulfill my dream, it will be mine until the time comes to pass it on to my daughter.

~Dane~

[BillnChristi]

Maybe I should reflect my environment in mine too.....corn plant green roof, soybean plant green cabinets, etc. LOL Or there's always wheat beige flooring. Oh, and we do have sunflowers in KS and SD, so bright sunflower yellow mouldings. haha Or, I could always go with tractor colors.

Don't take me wrong. I love your idea. I was just being a goofball (as my kids would say).

Hubby said something to the same effect about the structure itself being the main selling point, and I wondered that myself. I only want to add "goodies" that will be returned 100%+ in the market value of the home. Don't want to pay 5k plus for granite countertops if it will only increase my value by 3k (just for an example). I do like how granite looks, but I DON'T like being associated with status symbols because I'm surrounded by folks like that (friends and family, not fellow truck drivers), and it has never been a value of mine. And, I love finding low cost, high impact alternatives to costly things.

Have you seen some of the dyed and stamped concrete floors? Those look awesome in the log homes too...with big wool rugs, etc. Wonder if you could have that over a basement. I guess with a sturdy enough subfloor you could have pretty much anything.

Ok, I'm rambling all over the place. You made some excellent points, Dane. Thank you for your input.

I'm gonna try to post a pic of the quartz though. Some of it is very beautiful and looks very much like granite.

Well, crap...probably can't post the pic anyway due to copyright or whatever, look up Cambria countertops. In the meantime, I found some gorgeous colored copper panels that I can frame out on a couple of cabinet fronts, and some rock farmhouse sinks, rust-look metal roofing...I'll be busy today. :)

[rckclmbr428]

a few thoughts, I am living in the home I built to sell, after the 4th contract fell through on it, we moved in. I am starting my 4th home building for others, build small, build within your budget, if its not within your budget, it prob. wont be within your potential buyers budget. most log home buyers are older people who are downsizing and want everything on one floor. and most would rather have a smaller home with a garage then a bigger home without a garage. In this economy I would build to what you want, and move in and wait for things to turn around. I know alot of builders, (myself included) that arent building any spec homes. (homes purely to put on the market and sell) and the only one that I do know doing it is building small under $140k homes that first time home buyers would want. those are my thoughts, but I just do this for a living.

[pinewood]

Very surprised Christi. I thought RED was the state color. Will it not be your primary decorating color? My only experience with Nebraska was driving back from Missouri and at 2 A.M. was rear-ended by a drunk in downtown Lincoln. Out of no where pops a policeman holding a billy club. Do they have police cars yet? Seriously though, I have not seen a place in America that wasn't beautiful, even across the desserts of Nevada. But I am very happy with my Colorado mountains. BTW 3/5/12 CU Buffs over the BIG RED 67-57.

~Dane~

[tgb3]

pinewood,
Keep dreaming!!! Huskers rule, the Buffs just make buffalo chips and stink up the place :)

[pinewood]

OMG! Husker fans seem to show up everywhere! But I do love the passion you have for the BIG RED. We have taken our share of beatings but those days are happily over as my BUFFS head to the Pac 12 and the Huskers move on to the Little 10. I will end with the reminder of the Buff shellacking of the #2 ranked Big Red football team 11/23/01 62-36. Ha Ha, love teasing ya' tgb3!

[BillnChristi]

Lord, I can't escape the UNL fanaticism ANYWHERE!!! hahaha When I first moved to Nebraska (from FL no less - Go Gators!), I was SHOCKED by all the houses with big red "N's" painted on their garages, mailboxes, etc. I swore I'd NEVER be a Husker fan. What kind of a name is Cornhusker anyway??? But better than what they started out as - get this...the BUG-EATERS! I am NOT kidding!

Well, I maintained that stance for many years, until our youngest went away to school there. Even then it took till the end of his Sophomore year before we caved and became Big Red fans. But, I REFUSE to be fanatical about it. LOL I have had a red kitchen in the past, but barn red, not Husker red and that will be about the extent of red in MY house (but I LMAO over your remarks pinewood!) My husband on the other hand...he's really been enjoying the Huskers the last 2 years, so we'll see if he becomes a fanatic. :-/

[loghousenut]

Don't understand the sports thing...

But they make a great hand lotion!

[BillnChristi]

LHN...huh?? LOL Oh, nevermind...I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Comes in ol' timey looking bottle and contents are cornsilk colored. Can't recall name.

Rckclmbr248...love your website. Especially love the main home that is featured....was it Whispering Pines? Is that the one in the Gallery? What an adorable home. Love some of the touches you put in it too. The Skip-style Z doors, and the window sill board (can't remember what they call that un-planed edge stuff), the log girders and such. The home was small, but lovely. Love the bedroom photo. It just said "home." You can tell the home is small(ish), but it doesn't like it would "live small," if that makes sense. What footprint does that home have? I can tell I'm gonna be picking YOUR brain when I get to the other side. :)

[pinewood]

You are right LHN! And if the manufacturer was smart they would make it in red and it would be in every household in the State of Nebraska. Except Christi's I guess. Ha Ha!

~Dane~

[superloggy]

BillnChristi
If your building for speculative sale . The lhba or any dark/rough log heavy chinked style is the least popular with customers and buyers, only a small percent of house buyers want a log house and a very small percentage of those people want a rough old looking cabin.
You should try and include some architectural features like a trusess or outrigger logs. Peel the logs properly, smooth clean and bright showing the beautiful grain. Use a tight scribe building style. Put a clear finish on the inside and slightly darker finish on the exterior, It will darken over time guaranteed, especially with exposure to UV/sunlight. Unfinished the logs would be black/grey within a year. Do this and you will have a very valuable, desirable house on your hands that appeals to practically everybody.
Of course everyone has there preferences, somepeople paint the outside of their house pink! So take this free advise from someone with many, many years in log home building industry.
PS. Even tho machine cut log homes sell very well. I think because they are clean, smooth and uniform looking. I don't recommend them for the simple fact that even tho the first check you would have to sign might seem appealing compaired to other options. They have the most pitfalls, and expenses after that point of purchase.

[rocklock]

You implied that "lhba or any dark/rough log heavy chinked style" is what we do.
Why don't you look at a few pictures... We don't.
And how do you know what people want? Are you all knowing and all seeing?
I think you advise is worth exactly what we paid for it...

Again, I would build something you like, something that excites you.

[pinewood]

Sorry Christi. One last semi-serious thought. Where are you going to find your logs in Nebraska? Seriously don't think you will pass the "class" if you intend to build with corn stalks. I suggest you check out those giant REDwoods in California. Your home would look awesome sitting in a Nebraska cornfield! And you would probably only need a couple of rows and you would be done! Okay I promise I am done - please forgive me!

~Dane~

[rckclmbr428]

my little home is 3300 sq. ft, its a 35x35 on a full finished basement

[superloggy]

rocklock
I have seen the pictures. They are fine homes, I would rather live in one of them over say a mobile home. I wouldn't call them handcrafted log homes. Its got a trappers cabin look/feel to them. Its a building style/system that allows an unskilled person build a log house. I have built almost every stye possible in my travels, dictated by what the customers want.
Chinked styles are the least common/requested, and only really necessary if the notch style or workmanship or lack of, requires it. I gurantee I have built more log homes the anyone you will have come across. I have seen every new system/school that claims to be the best. They all have their sales pitch and propaganda.
billnchisti
If lhba style is what you want and fits your situation go for it. But if you want maximum return on a speculative build or future sale, it is almost the last way I would recommend but I'm sure others here will have other opinions and thats great. I'm not trying to force my personal preferences on you, just sharing facts I have learned over a life time in the log homes sales/building industry.

[BillnChristi]

Too funny, pinewood :) Nebraska actually has some very nice Ponderosa Pine/Black Hills Spruce forests in the north central and north west areas of the state. But, alas, they're not REDwoods, nor are they RED pine, RED cedar (oh wait! There IS Eastern RED cedar!!), there are probably some RED oak, but we'll probably use Ponderosa. We're yella. LOL Ouch....hubby just said we could always stain our logs RED....which is better than Buffalo Chip Brown. Ewwwww. hehehe

Wow, rckclmbr!! 3300 sq ft is HUGE in my mind (let's see...I live in a 8x8 padded cell currently LOL)! 35x35 with full finished basement is what we were thinking of building. Now I see what that size looks like, and some great ideas for front entry, interior, etc. Maybe it seemed smaller in comparison because part of your square footage is in the basement and alot of the LHBA homes in the Gallery don't seem to have basements (no tornadoes in Pacific NW). I hope I didn't offend you. It is a gorgeous home.

superloggy....you need to spend ALOT more time looking in the Student Gallery. I say that with the utmost sincerity and kindness. I was doing a comparison the other day of rustic vs non-rustic looking member homes and there are alot more of the non-rustic variety in there. One in particular that stands out is Pinecone Pam's. Very light, bright, polished, modern, and its quite obvious she is a very talented individual (but, hey, she IS an artist). There are many others too, but we keep going back to that one (hubby and I). But, I will keep in mind some of your suggestions. I trust that you do have alot of very valuable experience. But, I have to admit...I drank the kool-aid, man. No going back now. :)

rocklock...I think we will def aim for something that "excites US." I've found some pretty exciting ideas online that are not only very appealing to me, but I think would be very appealing to others as well. And, I think there are ways to accomplish some of those ideas in a more budget-conscious manner if we're creative about it. Like some of the architectural details that I mentioned previously, and I think superloggy did too. And, mixing expensive and non-expensive materials in the kitchen, etc.

This is so much fun! Just afraid I'll put too much of myself into this and not be able to part with it!! :)

C.

[jrdavis]

Superloggy --

I'm somewhere between LogHouseNuts cordial responses and Rocklock more definitive ones... (not that you arecn't cordial rocklock)

But YOU should truly remember that YOU are the guest here, its our home.

We've heard you speak of kits you have hand build "all over the world", etc and then tell us you'd live in one of the LHBA houses IF the other choice was a trailer. -- you may think we're stupid for "building the LHBA way" but, all we got with you is the air and letters you type. I would bet you dimes to dollars that YOU wouldn't sell the house that rckclmber built for what he built it for. NOR does anyone who's seen it, been in it and checked out the craftsmanship, think it a trappers cabin.

I would bet you $1000 cash. today, that you couldn't and wouldn't drive a CAT D into your freshly built house, because some "smart-aleck know-it-all" said it would probably fall down....let alone have the CAT stall out because the house didn't move. Skip Did!

FACTS that our founder has proof of... again all we got with you is the air and letters you type. Yes, Its getting real annoying that you continue to spout your own "brand of propaganda".

Many a home here has sold for more than 4 times what the builders have put in it without the problems that kit homes are LOADED with, including yours.

I've been in Skips home in Monroe more than once. Once after an earthquake where a few things fell off the wall, but no structural damage after 15 years. It also heats with a 1500 sq. ft heater and its 7500 sq ft. with no rot. any of your houses 30 years old? withno problems? if you say yes, then put up names & number and website. please.

but , keep reading and you may even com across the Kit home 2nd owners that ask questions.....at least 3 this year... on how to fix things... and we can't help them... maybe it will be an income boom for you.

I'm afraid the we'll keep doing the things we do and putting out happy, satisfied customers and leave the nay-sayers behind, as rocklock said "worth what we paid for it" here in the non-members side.

[Log Home Pioneer]

superlog,

My ears perk up when I hear someone going against the grain. So with all your years of experience please school us unskilled in the ways of log cabin building! Im sure you must have tons of pictures, please share them. One thing that I dont get is "Its a building style/system that allows an unskilled person build a log house." Sounds like you are talking down to the unskilled home builders trying to learn while attempting to get ahead. Not only that but also doing as the people who first stole this land from the native Americans did. Build log homes. I guess if you are in the log home kit business I could see why you seem so salty. People here building things for themselves is bad for people like you. Pretty straight forward, show us some of your multitudes of "log" homes you've built and I may listen, as of right now seems like your just blowing smoke....

[superloggy]

If you have ever looked at the inside of a log home magazine chances are you have seen my work. It is conceivably possible I'm blowing smoke, If thats what you want to believe thats fine with me I'm not to worried about it.
I fully understand the lhba style, has its intended purpose and it is genius for its purpose. But the topic of this thread is building a log house to sell. That is not where the lhba excels in my experience.
I'm only reservation to encouraging anyone to build a different way than laid out here is the chainsaw work/skill required, is extremely dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. So the lhba is the way to go in some circumstances, I will admit.
I have seen trappers cabins that were built with an axe, of different species of wood mixed in, the bark was still on the logs. It was still solid and livable but good luck selling it for large sum. The innovations in log building have come a long way and really can't be compared to the log building practices of the past but very few know and use these techniques.
And your are right Kit homes usually are terrible and a bear trap waiting to trap unsuspecting buyers trying to build their dream. Thats not what I do or sell. I do log home joinery. Be it timber frame, post and beam, full scribe, piece on piece, dovetail or some hybrid including several combined styles.

[dazedandconfused]

Super we here love to show pics, got any of your work?

[loghousenut]

Slippery slope....

Here we are, just two aggressive posts form an ugly knife fight and it's still civil. I love this forum. My Dad always said that you can't accidentally insult someone... Insult by it's very nature implies intent. I see no reason to doubt our Brother superloggy's experience level or accomplishments. I see no reason to think that his posts would peg him as a guy who sells or assembles kit houses and has no other experience in the industry. From his posts it would appear that he is someone who has experience and interest in the field of hand crafted log homes and has no need for our school and yet an interest in what we are doing here. I like that.

If you'll notice, he (sorry to talk like you can't here me superloggy) hasn't flooded our forum with nasty, sniping comments on every subject matter telling us what a bunch of loosers we are. On the contrary, he has responded to only a few threads and it has been civil. While I'll admit that most of his advice is contrary to the advice we woulda gotten from Skip, it is the advice that will come from most folks who have built a log home from scratch. That should come as no surprise. Did nobody ever tell any of us that we were doing it all differently from the rest of the world? Heck, I thought that was the attraction to our way of doing it. We oughta be HAPPY to hear that we are the only bunch of fanatics doing it this way, as long as it is working for us.

He is not saying that we can't do it. He is not saying that it won't pass inspection. He is not saying that the LHBA mission statement (do we have a mission statement?) isn't being followed. He has never said that my house is ugly, or weak, or lame, or a one-off fluke. He HAS said that our way of doing it seems to allow a relatively unskilled "lack of Craft"sman to build a home for his/her family. That shoe fits most of us like a glove.

Superloggy, Thanks for not taking offense when I said you were nuts for peeling logs with a drawknife. As for the "trapper cabin" comments... That's the look we were after and I hope we are succeeding. A 2,000 square foot trapper cabin.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Wow/1stsnowontheroof11-2010001.jpg

[BillnChristi]

The problem here is misperception due to marketing (follow the money trail), because if folks KNEW the intricacies of the different building methods they would no doubt prefer the Skip-style building method. Every single thing that LHBA members are instructed to do has a reason behind it and when explained it makes complete sense, even to the most LOGICAL and INTELLIGENT brains. You will see folks from all walks of life are LHBA members. That alone is a testament to the system.

I would surmise that most folks begin a search for a log home via the log home magazines, which are full of large, glossy, professionally produced photos of beautiful homes. And, the publishers of these magazines sell lots of ad space to log home builders (kit and handcrafted alike). And, I'm sure the relationship goes much deeper than that even, so of course they are motivated to "educate" consumers on certain aspects and present certain styles over others, in order to maintain that mutually beneficial relationship (again, follow the money).

Heck, we're all wasting our time here with superloggy. We know why he is here...certainly NOT for the same reasons we are (to help our fellow man or woman). Our system is an obvious insult to the many years he has spent perfecting his trade and he would rather be antagonistic and insert "digs" in his posts instead of engaging us in intellectual debate, so I would suggest that we simply refuse to engage him on his terms. If he wants to play nice though, then by all means respond in kind.

Just my honest opinion.

C.



I know is an insult to your ego and your many years spent perfecting your methods, but

[BillnChristi]

Oops....last sentence was re-worded (for civility purposes) but not deleted as I intended. But, that is how I see it, if I'm honest. And, had not seen LHN's post at that point either.

[loghousenut]

The problem here is misperception due to marketing (follow the money trail), because if folks KNEW the intricacies of the different building methods they would no doubt prefer the Skip-style building method. Every single thing that LHBA members are instructed to do has a reason behind it and when explained it makes complete sense, even to the most LOGICAL and INTELLIGENT brains. You will see folks from all walks of life are LHBA members. That alone is a testament to the system.

I would surmise that most folks begin a search for a log home via the log home magazines, which are full of large, glossy, professionally produced photos of beautiful homes. And, the publishers of these magazines sell lots of ad space to log home builders (kit and handcrafted alike). And, I'm sure the relationship goes much deeper than that even, so of course they are motivated to "educate" consumers on certain aspects and present certain styles over others, in order to maintain that mutually beneficial relationship (again, follow the money).

Heck, we're all wasting our time here with superloggy. We know why he is here...certainly NOT for the same reasons we are (to help our fellow man or woman). Our system is an obvious insult to the many years he has spent perfecting his trade and he would rather be antagonistic and insert "digs" in his posts instead of engaging us in intellectual debate, so I would suggest that we simply refuse to engage him on his terms. If he wants to play nice though, then by all means respond in kind.

Just my honest opinion.

C.


You know me well enough to know where my heart lies, so I know you won't question my motives. While every single thing that is taught in LHBA class has a reason behind it and makes complete sense, the LHBA way is not the only way to get a log home to stick onto a foundation.

It is the way I prefer to do it but I am comfortable recognizing that I/we are in the minority. Most folks who end up with what they call a log home, had it built by someone like superloggy and either had the financial fortitude to pay for it outright, or are still paying for it by the month. Be it a kit house or a scribed and notched hand-built mansion, they call it a log home and they might very well look askew at what we call a log home. Let 'em.

As for why superloggy (I do not capitalize his forum name out of respect for how he himself types it) is here, why not ask him? I would guess that he, like many of "us", has always loved the idea of building with logs. Perhaps he realizes that "we" build with logs. I don't know about the rest of you but as for me, I was "nuts about log houses" even before I became loghousenut.

Maybe he can't ad a thing to this forum... But then again, maybe he can.

Maybe we can help him along to whatever his next venture is. We don't know how many log homes he has built for himself. For all we know, maybe it's time for him to build his family a log home, of whatever style he chooses, and pay for it as he builds it. Heck, he might be a rich old fart with no heirs in his will.... Remember how it's spelled L O G H O U S E N U T !!!

[superloggy]

Loghousenut the house looks great.
Your I enjoy your input and I can't argue with anything you post, I might sometimes have a different point of view. But your experience and approach is a solid ias anyone I have seen.
If I encounter something new to me I investigate, research and the odd debate comes up sometimes such debates lead to name calling sometimes they lead to a new way of doing things. I don't think I'm perfect but I have as much as experience one can obtain and there's more come I'm sure.
I'm not trying to change anyones mind that's their job if they want to. Also I think that from my experiences and what I have learned here, anyone would be best off doing the lhba style than a more complicated detailed style they don't fully understand or have the chainsaw skills for. A shrink to fit, four point saddle is finicky to build if your new and if missing one component is probably not as good as a lhba house. There are only a hand full of people that know how to build as I mentioned earlier and most are from Germany and Switzerland for the most part. I was lucky enough to work there for a spell and it was a great experience.
In my other post I have included links to some videos of some stuff going on around my place. I'm not selling or advertising anything here and I wouldn't post pics of customers houses, thats their option. Believe me or call me crazy or be interested in the other side of the fence, I'm fine with it either way.
BillnChristi your right the log home industry is full of problems most of the companies don't know how to build properly and theres so my many midde men, distributors, suppliers, deposits, bad engineering, architecture. And I never encouraged anyone to go that route. What I would end up building will often be marked up 3-4 times what I charge before it reachs the customer or build site if its built off site. If you have any questions on what goes on on the other side of the fence I would answer honestly I have nothing to gain or lose here.
If I told you I can build a 30 by 30 house with full scribed, notched, tight no chinking needed including walls, door and window opening details cut and roof system cut and in place, no rebar needed, smooth ready for stain in 4days (with a labourer helping). If it had a truss or two it would take an extra day. But that is hustling and there are people in the industry that will say that's not possible. Just a fact from the other side. I would love to here your guys experiences.
Anyhow, back to the thread topic. I would encourage you to try and include at least one truss in your design as It seems to be the most popular feature when it comes time to sell.

[BillnChristi]

superloggy...it's just not necessary to use derogatory terms when commenting on the style...it behooves us all to be thoughtful and word things as tactfully as possible...anything less is just pickin' a fight and serves no one. I think all of us here welcome alternate views, when presented as just that.

Thank you for the advice...I value everyone's input very much.

Christi

[Log Home Pioneer]

I like superloggy... I just wanted to see some pictures is all...Different strokes :)

[Log Home Pioneer]

Hey superL,

I cant find your links. Mind sending me them in a PM? Thanks

[rocklock]

Try below.

[commercial link deleted by admin]

[dazedandconfused]

Looks pretty good from my untrained eye loggy, well said loghousenut.

[edkemper]

superloggy,

> There are only a hand full of people that know how to build as I mentioned earlier and most are from Germany and Switzerland for the most part.

Sounds like a bunch of log home experts. Not exactly what most of us were or are looking for.

However, when looking at the member's log homes that have already been built, by totally (mostly) non-professional builders (amateurs), seems to me we might have something to teach even the professionals. After all, if a bunch of amateurs can build what we do, it seems that we might have found a better mousetrap.

I'm glad you're here and hope you stick around and get to know more about us.

[superloggy]

Thanks Ed.
I have seen many home owner built log houses of various style and hope that it keeps becoming a more popular trend. Myself and a friend built a 20 by 20 house in a couple weeks on evenings and weekends out of the logs a local log home company rejected and gave him to take away for free because the logs were to small for their program. It just took a couple more rounds to get to the desired wall height. It was a round notch, chinker not scribed tight which helps maximize wall height out of the available logs similiar to the lhba style. The whole project from land, excavation, sceptic field, finishing materiasl cost just under 20,000. And even tho he planned on lviing there he sold it to a German fellow who made him an offer he couldn't refuse. And he actually stayed in town and paid off his mortage with what he made in his and some of my spare time.

[Mosseyme]

superloggy
Much has been said here about pros and cons of building types. I have been holding my peace because my initial knee jerk reaction would not have been appropriate. I took a look at your video, very nice craftsmanship, I'm glad you are out there doing that thing that you do so well. There is probably not one of us at least on the member side that would want to be called the average log home customer. I dare say most of us have perused the log home mags for years but when we came across this we found our spot. The customers who choose the other styles of building are totally another breed from us or they just never found this other way. Most probably could and would not even conceive of doing what appeals so much to us. I am very grateful for the LHBA and the guidance found here. We were jumping into the log home building on our own with little guidance because we had the trees that had to come down and had been unable to find much useful info. Thankfully we came across this literally weeks before we would have been milling our trees into D logs.
After we took the class last year we took a few days to travel in the mountains of WA. We passed many a beautiful log home along the way. We admired them and went on. Then we saw one that made us both do double take and turn around and go back. We stopped and talked to the owner, builder, young man, 30is, with a family, 40x50 2 1/2 story LHBA log home. Beautiful thing it was, 4 foot ridge pole. Took the class I think in 2004. Took 4 years nights and weekends full time job with almost no help. They had just moved in. Radiant heat floors, just awesome. Said he would still have to have a mortgage of 125,000 because of purchase of land with cottage and work shop but hey, he has a 1/2 million plus home out of it. LHBA doesn't sell log homes, it sells a way to live your dream.

[superloggy]

Thats great another success story.
I'm not selling anything here and I realize by the violent reaction from some people here I stand for everything evil and bad in the log home industry which I particpate in from time to time. I never ecouraged anyone to go that route. You really have no idea what goes on in the log home industry behind the scenes. Its to bad nobody wants to know anything about what goes on or how it works. And believe me there are a lot of misconceptions floating around here.
Believe it or not there are easier/quicker/cheaper ways to build a log home than the lhba style. Many in fact but they look a little different and a lot of them don't require chinking. But thats not what the class teaches you for the money you pay, and I'm fine with that. If someone isn't comfortable bulding in more than one way they shouldn't try.

[edkemper]

superloggy,

I think we've been very nice and welcoming to you here. However, it's starting to sound like you are here not to learn what and how we do things, you want us to get "into" the log home "industry." You're looking for buyers. If that's the case, this site isn't for you. You came here without knowing what and how we build and now, without knowing, you're claiming we do it wrong. That doesn't make sense or friends.

If you're looking for great people and individuals who want to build log homes "our way," I hope you'll stick around. We're kinda like vegetarians, nothing you can say will change our choices. Know what I mean?

[Mosseyme]

well said ed coming from one of those vegetarians. one that drank the cool aide. and it went down smooth.

[superloggy]

edkemper
I have never encouraged anyone to go the log home industry route. I know that is not what people are here for, and I certainly don't have any expectations of getting work/customers from this forum. I am here because I want to encourage people to build their log homes themselves.
But some here seem to be offended that I suggest there is more ways than one to do so.Tho you will find that on a regular basis I suggest that people stick with the lhba style if they don't feel confident or understand or have the skills required for a more complicated building system.
Hopefully your not purposing a world only consisting of housesbuilt lhba style. But more to thread topic if your building your log home for resale, would you build a style geared toward ease of use for an inexperienced first time builder?

[BillnChristi]

An LHBA home can be every bit as marketable as any other style. Depends on who designs it, the care they take in building it, and the size of their pocketbook, or more appropriately, how much they are willing to spend on building it. And, if the buyers are educated by the sellers on the pros and cons (?) of this style, it becomes even more valuable.

Spent most of the day with two tabs open on my browser...one looking for loads and the other on loghome.com. Was scanning their design gallery for design and decor ideas. Was VERY shocked that most of the homes had quite a bit of chinking and high levels of rusticity (trappers cabins, if you will). Matter of fact, only saw 2 or 3 that didn't include those features, on 13 pages of homes as a matter of fact. Also alot of king trusses and rock accents, etc. But, I really didn't think I would see so many chinked homes, because of what loggy said about customers preferring non-chinked. Also felt a LHBA home, based on appearance alone, was more beautiful than 90% of the homes on there (conservative estimate). Just my opinion and observation.

[superloggy]

BillnChristi
Yes you are right the beauty of a log home lays in the beholder.
I have noticed that there are reasons people use chinking in their house. One of them is they like the look of it, the dark logs and the light chinking makes a nice contrast. Luckily you can chink any house you want, there's nothing to stopping you. Or the house needs it. It's either built to require it or it hasn't aged well over time and the chinking seals up the leaks in the walls. Sometimes they only chink the outside and leave the interior because they like the look of the wood up close. In fact I think this combination is the most popular/common chinked outside/tight natural wood inside. Some people It allows the logs to breathe better with the fluctuations in the seasonal humidity. But what ever I think the use of fiberglass insulation is a bigger problem.
I find it funny when a client asks the log broker/distributor for a non chink scribe fit then plans to chink it. There is no need to chink a log house that has been to be scribed tight. But If they had asked for a chinker style house it could be built in about half the time and expense. Because you gain more height from the same logs because your not scribing an inch out of the top one to accomdate and seal to the one below. Also the don't require as much attention because if no chinking going to be used the notches don't have to be as straight to accomodare this sliding if you will.
Stranger yet is the log home companies charge the same for a chinker style house and a tight scribe house. Even tho the chinker takes less material and half the time. One guy was specializing in it around here and even said to my face "why would I do full scribe when I make twice as much money this way".
One reason the get a full scribe then chink it is it will take about half as much material because there's less of a void to fill.
I personally I don't like to see the chinking on the interior of the house and most people I have talked to agree. Seeing the courses of logs mesh perfectly to each others contours is a beautiful thing in my opinion. The exterior I could live with but I don't spend time sitting at the dinner table or on the couch a few feet from those walls that much. Also the chinking will require a fair amount of maintenance.
But there is a buyer for everything at the right price.

[edkemper]

superloggy,

> But some here seem to be offended that I suggest there is more ways than one to do so.

I believe most of us have been exposed to numerous different styles of log homes already. The way we build is why we become/became LHBA members.

> Tho you will find that on a regular basis I suggest that people stick with the lhba style if they don't feel confident or understand or have the skills required for a more complicated building system.

While you claim to support our way, you also feel that doing it our way is somehow juvenile compared to how you feel is the best way.

> Hopefully your not purposing a world only consisting of housesbuilt lhba style.

A world, no. But for our association, and what we call our family members, yes. We all know there are many ways of building homes, we've just decided this is the way we choose to do it, with our own personal touches thrown in.

> But more to thread topic if your building your log home for resale, would you build a style geared toward ease of use for an inexperienced first time builder?

We wouldn't build the "normal" way, that is why we're here. As for ease of use? I guess we'll have to disagree on what ease of use means. I think most of us would say this is the most simple way of building whether one is an experianced builder or not. We have plenty of members that have a history of being in the construction trade. Of those, they also feel that this way is the way for them. For those of us without any prior experience? As the member's photos will show, even amateurs can build homes that would sell well.

From another post:

> I have noticed that there are reasons people use chinking in their house. One of them is they like the look of it, the dark logs and the light chinking makes a nice contrast.

Actually, on this site, we like the chinking because that's the way we build. We are here because of the building style and affordability, not the chinking or lack thereof.

> It's . . . built to require it

It's our design.

> or it hasn't aged well over time and the chinking seals up the leaks in the walls.

Not the case here. We purposefully build them with chinking.

> Sometimes they only chink the outside and leave the interior because they like the look of the wood up close. In fact I think this combination is the most popular/common chinked outside/tight natural wood inside.

We are not interested in anything that is the most popular. If that were the case, we'd be building stick or kit homes. We've had our fill of "normal" housing.

> I find it funny when a client asks the log broker/distributor for a non chink scribe fit then plans to chink it.

We don't use log brokers/distributors that sell manufactured logs. We buy natural, un-altered logs. We find it entertaining that anyone here would want a non-chinked style log home.

> There is no need to chink a log house that has been to be scribed tight.

Since you haven't taken the class and don't know exactly what our style is, I understand your confusion.

> Also the don't require as much attention because if no chinking going to be used the notches don't have to be as straight to accomodare this sliding if you will.

Not sure what "sliding" you refer to. You don't seem to understand our way. I can't teach you the class here so again, I understand your confusion.

> Stranger yet is the log home companies charge the same for a chinker style house and a tight scribe house.

When you speak of log home companies, I'm assuming you're referring to what we call kit built home companies. Again, you know a lot about their style but lack the same knowledge of our particular style. So please understand if we can't see you as a credible source with respect to our way. I know of no kit built home style that is like ours.

> Even tho the chinker takes less material and half the time.

Only less manufactured material, then apparently only half the time for the builder. However, the cost is substantially more because of the manufacturing process that goes with manufactured material. Add the manufacturing time and expense, that's when things start adding up.

> One guy was specializing in it around here and even said to my face "why would I do full scribe when I make twice as much money this way".

Most of us aren't in this to "make money." Most of us are here to save money and improve the quality of our lives. Living without a mortgage and building our own homes is improving our lives, in our opinion.

> One reason they get a full scribe then chink it is it will take about half as much material because there's less of a void to fill.

We're not interested. If we were, we'd be on a full scribe site.

> I personally I don't like to see the chinking on the interior of the house and most people I have talked to agree.

This site and this association was never intended to be for everyone. We're also fairly well versed in what most people want and not interested in what that is. That is why we're here. Don't entertain the idea of changing us. It's not going to happen.

> Seeing the courses of logs mesh perfectly to each others contours is a beautiful thing in my opinion.

Perhaps you'd could find some links to that style of building? We find our way to be perfect for us. I'd love to see pictures of log homes you've built, but that doesn't mean I'd do it that way. We appreciate other forms of building. We here because we just prefer to do it our way.

I can't necessarily speak for anyone else here but I also wouldn't suggest you change your beliefs and preferences either. I'm not trying to get you to build our way. We're here because we like this way and offer encouragement to others that are like minded. I would suggest consider embracing your preferences and find like minded people that would be in your camp.

Respect is imbracing differences, not expecting all to be the same.

[rocklock]

This is an example of why log home people are not allowed in the class and as full members...

About self interest. I have been a member since day one... I have used this forum to solve many problems. Some times just writing about the problem has formed the solution. Rod's suggestion about using a my drill and a socket extension has saved many hours of difficult labor, for one example. I have many. I am trying to pay back what I have received. I don't receive one penny in return, even though I am amazed at the number of views on my photobucket site... over 154,000.

Here are a number of things that IMHO are disagreeable.

One thin strip removed with a draw knife after the bark is gone will remove this layer.
Some people use a high pressure washer to blast everything off but its slow leaves a fuzzy finish and is messy/wet work.
It takes some time to acquire that much experience but they are all simple variations of the basic concepts you would learn at a log building course.
There is many superior ways to build and no real speed advantage either way.
This would exceed the limits of any chinking I have seen or heard of.
I'm not trying to change anyones mind that's their job if they want to.
But if you want your house to be clean, smooth and see the beautiful grain of the logs and want it to stay that way for years peeling with a drawknife really is the only way to go.
But the system works together and that's a great thing.
The lhba or any dark/rough log heavy chinked style is the least popular with customers and buyers,
I would rather live in one of them over say a mobile home. I wouldn't call them handcrafted log homes.
I fully understand the lhba style, has its intended purpose and it is genius for its purpose.

I would reply to each of the above, if it were worth my time. Its not.

[Admin]

We tried to give this thread, and superloggy, a great deal of latitude.

Over time it became more and more apparent that superloggy was meeting the text book definition of internet troll. He repeatedly made comments with what seemed like the intent of provoking negative emotional responses in other members.

A backhanded compliment, no matter how politely you say it, is still an insult.

Superloggy will no longer be participating in this forum. This thread, having run past any sense of usefulness to the original topic, will be locked.

We appreciate your understanding with this matter.

Best regards,
-The Mgt.