Water treatment

[rocklock]

My well puts out water that has 6 problems.
1. Iron - about 10 times to much
2. Manganese - about 18 times to much
3. pH of about 6.
4. Dissolved Sulfur - it smells.
5. Lots of dissolved solids. It turns orange after a while.
6. Something else but I forget what it was.
I had a free test by the Culligan Man... And he said no problem, for about $8,000 bucks we can fix you right up.
I have a friend who wants me to do some kind of slow sand filter that has some kind of slime layer that will fix me right up.
To make things even more complex, I have been reading about stuff that deer and raccoons carry that are some kind of incurable disease.
Then there are things that will take care of one problem but not the other... and then the pH becomes a problem...
In general, it seems that everyone has a product to sell that will solve something...
Evidently this is not an uncommon problem, but I have always used city water...
I just don't have a clue...
I do know that the first problem is to define the problem. I need to get an accurate water sample.
Does anyone have clue what to do next?
Thanks

[Cruiser]

Dave, sorry to hear about your water woes. I wish I had some info that would help, but all I can give is moral support. We are really lucky in our area and blessed with some of the best water in the country. My boss just moved from the LA area and he told me had to put in a whole-house filtration system. He said the water was terrible, but the system did help, but I'm not sure what type of issues he was having. I do know he was on city water, so I don't think the problem would be as severe as what you have. I'll ask him tomorrow. Good luck.

[Blondie]

Rocklock,

Have you looked into a reverse osmosis system? They used them in dialysis units to remove everything and I mean "everything" from water.

Blondie

[BillnChristi]

We had alot of reverse-osmosis systems in Florida, due to so many pools I think. They seem to help with the high iron/sulfur water down there. Don't care much for regular water softeners that use the salt. Always felt slimy after a shower. :(

[StressMan79]

water softeners replace the calcium ions with sodium ions. all compounds with sodium are soluble in water, so it prevents "scale"

RO systems squeeze water through a semipermeable membrane that the ion's can't pass through. Great for drinking, but the flow rate is not capable of making enough for a shower (at least with normal sized systems).

regular filters use a mesh to catch particulates (say 1 micron, or so). These do nothing for "hardness" or Dave's problem with iron/sulfur.

sand filters use biological "slime" to digest much of offending stuff.

UV "filters" don't filter anything with the UV. They kill bacteria/etc.

knowing this: My plan (I also have offending sulfur levels):

use one or two cascading sand filters to remove as much sulfur as possible (the slime will turn it into sulfur dioxide).

for the drinking water, I'll run the water through an RO then a UV filter. Hopefully the sulfur levels will be low enough for showers/washing. If not, I suppose I'll add another sand filter.

[Timberwolf]

In the house we just sold we had pretty bad water from a shallow surface well. Sulfur, iron, hard as hell and bacterial issues in the spring sometimes.

The iron/sulphur issue is easily solved. One filtration system (whole house) will take care of both and is self-regenerating (although you flush alot of water out). No need to add anything. We rented ours, but they can be bought new for around $800. The orange color could be from the iron/sulphur and some bacteria that likes the stuff.

We also had a softner, actually loved that part for showering, although it feels slimy, you just have to change to different soap, the most basic kind you can find, like Ivory or something. Hated adding salt though, plus you dump alot of water out with the regen.

For the bacteria, UV sterilizer. PITA, about $400, but you need a new bulb about once a year as well.

Also had a point of use RO system, used this mainly to remove the salt from the water for drinking (our water was so hard, you could actually taste the frikin salt left by the softner. About another $500.

The water at the RO tap was the best I've ever drank. Before all the crap was installed, you couldn't even shower without being sick from the smell.

My experience with Culligan (we have them here too) is that they are completely door to door salesmen. They over spec and over charge for everything. I've seen them scare seniors into getting UV/RO systems and they were on town water!

I was lucky, I got to know the installer guy really well (when we bought the house, the softner was already rented) and he told me flat out what a rip off they were (independant contractor, lol) and told me how cheap you could buy their kit from the plumbing supply house (they quoted me $5000 for a tricked out water softner) a quality (albeit analog) unit costs: $800. Oh, but we have really easy finance terms and blah blah blah... (boy am I wiser than I once was... lol).

[panderson03]

wow, thanks for the tips you guys. sand filters and RO for point of use. will have to research both of those.
thanks!!

[Timberwolf]

water softeners replace the calcium ions with sodium ions. all compounds with sodium are soluble in water, so it prevents "scale"

RO systems squeeze water through a semipermeable membrane that the ion's can't pass through. Great for drinking, but the flow rate is not capable of making enough for a shower (at least with normal sized systems).

regular filters use a mesh to catch particulates (say 1 micron, or so). These do nothing for "hardness" or Dave's problem with iron/sulfur.

sand filters use biological "slime" to digest much of offending stuff.

UV "filters" don't filter anything with the UV. They kill bacteria/etc.

knowing this: My plan (I also have offending sulfur levels):

use one or two cascading sand filters to remove as much sulfur as possible (the slime will turn it into sulfur dioxide).

for the drinking water, I'll run the water through an RO then a UV filter. Hopefully the sulfur levels will be low enough for showers/washing. If not, I suppose I'll add another sand filter.

HIGHLY recommend you put your water thru the UV first, before the RO system. You do not want to contaminate your RO with bacteria. Bad bad bad.

If you have water with solids that might interfere with the UV sterilization, particulate these out in front of the UV by all means, but clean the water before the RO.

[rocklock]

My partial plan so far... Here are the problems.
1. Iron - about 10 times to much
2. Manganese - about 18 times to much. When oxidized turns everything orange and brown. Also caused my neighbor's finger nails to darken and crack.
3. pH of about 6.
4. Dissolved Sulfur - it smells.
5. Lots of dissolved solids and tannins.
6. Iron fixing bacteria. Not good for children....
I know part of the solution is a green sand filter which will filter the high Manganese. The problem is the water contains the iron fixing bacteria. So I need to kill the bacteria using chlorine which will oxidize the iron which will come out of solution in a pre-filter with the dead bacteria. The first thing is a fart-tank that causes the sulfur to com out of solution into a small tube which is piped outside. All of the water will be held in a 500 gal holding tank in my well shed. The water will be piped into my log home where a system of carbon filter with a Reverse Osmosis will be in place for my drinking water.
This is a basic outline to start with. I know that a back flush system needs to be involved as well as something to raise the pH.

So there it is. Five things to fix the water. There is also a significant amount of maintenance involved in any case - unless i go with the 8 grand Culligan Systems...
Does any of this stuff make sense? Comments please!

references
http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/dw/publications/ontap/2009_tb/how_to_manganese_greensand.pdf

[Bowhunter]

I am very green when it comes to wells, never lived on a piece of property with a well, always had city water. This issue of Rocklock's has me concerned about going and purchasing land to build on. Can the water be tested before I purchase the land?

[donjuedo]

Bowhunter,

While on the topic of purchase contracts, I'll share a bit of experience. In South Carolina, the custom is for a buyer to have a real estate agent write up an offer, which goes back and forth with the seller until accepted. Only then does that contract go to the attorney. This is the norm. This is stupid.

The offer ought to be written up, run past the attorney, then presented to the seller, and so on. Real problems could be prevented by including that attorney early on, and in most cases free, since the same attorney will close the deal.

If the land you want has a well, you can easily have the water tested as a contingency of the land purchase contract. It is very routine to have a perk test included as a contingency of the purchase agreement. But if there is no well, somebody's got to gamble.


Peter

[jrdavis]

Bowhunter --

We wrote our own contract up for the land with "contingency to find water, pass nitrite tests and perks..." but that was at OUR expense.
better $2-3000 bucks than $65,000 for useless land. IMHO

[rreidnauer]

Rocklock, have you considered abandoning the well altogether? You get plenty of rainfall where you've built, why not rainwater-catchment cistern? (you could probably even reuse the well pump in the tank) That solves most of your problems, though you'll still want to run through a filter and UV before domestic use.

[rocklock]

Rod,
Fortunately or unfortunately, Camano Island is in a transition zone. Don't tell any one but we only receive about 16 inches (Tucson, Arizona get about 12 inches) of rain a year. During the months of August, Sept and Oct. is is not unusual to go months with out any measurable rain. During these occasions there are fogs that get the leaves of the trees wet but little rain. I have heard that its rains up, which is a weird concept.

I also have a 10 plus acre fresh water pond, but every critter in the area uses it.

I am going to use a catchment barrels, but I really need to use my well... It has wonderful water, it just it has way tooooo much stuff in it...

Just like The Rime of the Ancient Mariner ->
Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink.

[rreidnauer]

Oh wow. Yea, 16" per year is low. I had no idea.

[Log Home Pioneer]

I hope the first thing they teach us in class is to make sure the water is good before you do ANYTHING else. As mentioned earlier go with RO water for drinking. You can even add pumps to increase the pressure for showers etc. Have you read of the benefits of alkaline water? You can alkalize your water with an extra filter. Here is the company I bought mine from. Cheaper than most and still a very good system. You may have to change your filters a bit more often depending on your water.

[Log Home Pioneer]

http://www.naturalsolutions1.com/cq_ro_reverse_osmosis2.htm

[WNYcabinplannin]

I'm needing to make my well water treatment system decision soon.
My well is great, and my neighbors on the same aquifer are happy. The guy up the hill from me just puts a small amount of bleach in his tank each week and he claims that's enough to get rid of the slight odor from the iron bacteria. I've drank straight from the bucket I've tested pumping into (with an AC pump temp. installed) I haven't installed the submersible pimp yet. My wife's desire is for the water to be perfect. We have city water at house now, with a culligan softener and a special filter for the side spigot at the kitchen sink.
That said, my local guy showed me his system he uses in his house. It's an all in one system that removes iron, hardness and kills iron bacteria all in one. http://water-right.com/residential/sanitizer_plus/sanitizer_plus.html
He said it's around $2500, and will take up a lot less space. I guess seeing that he installs all kinds of systems, but has this in his house impressed me.
Anyone have thoughts or experience with this kinds of system?
-Fletch

[rocklock]

the best answer is to ask a neighbor about the water. There are well driller that may have a clue, but I would not invest based on their opinion.
My problems were based on lack of knowledge, and using a driller that may not have all the power equipment that others had...
My well solution will cost 3500 bucks and be a self contained unit by EWS water treatement.
My big mistake was to install to small a hose for 400 feet of run and too small a power line to drive a pump. Its fixed now... Knock on wood...
So soon hot showers will take place...

[DnLHoops]

When I was going to build a log house in SD I was going to have to drill a shallow well unless I wanted to have one drilled to 3500'. I did quite a bit of research on RO systems and found one that incorporates fixes for the sulfer, bacteria , PH levels, iron, but I'm not sure about the Magnese or hard water issue. The only problem is that I am out of the country and my books are not with me. I do remember that it would produce 1000 GPD, it had in line UV, in line points of access to add chemicals of your choice, at rates that you choose, and carbon filters. I believe the system came with a 1000 gallon holding tank and was a whole house system. It was nearly 4 years ago that I found it and it was about $4000. My books should be be here in a couple of weeks and I could let you know what system it was if your interested. I just don't remember that much about it. My plans changed to building in Ohio in the next year or so when get back to the States and will have city water access if I should choose. I still like the Idea of being off the grid as much as possible. The property I just bought has 2 natural gas wells so I can heat, run appliances and use a natural gas generator to generate electric if I need. A well, some beef cattle, a couple deer a year, and a garden would take me completely off the grid, I'm just not sure how deep I will have to go in Ohio to get to the water. If all that fails there's always wal-mart, Home Depot and the electric company. Anyways, best of luck.......

Cheers,
Hoop

[Timberwolf]

I'm needing to make my well water treatment system decision soon.
My well is great, and my neighbors on the same aquifer are happy. The guy up the hill from me just puts a small amount of bleach in his tank each week and he claims that's enough to get rid of the slight odor from the iron bacteria. I've drank straight from the bucket I've tested pumping into (with an AC pump temp. installed) I haven't installed the submersible pimp yet. My wife's desire is for the water to be perfect. We have city water at house now, with a culligan softener and a special filter for the side spigot at the kitchen sink.
That said, my local guy showed me his system he uses in his house. It's an all in one system that removes iron, hardness and kills iron bacteria all in one. http://water-right.com/residential/sanitizer_plus/sanitizer_plus.html
He said it's around $2500, and will take up a lot less space. I guess seeing that he installs all kinds of systems, but has this in his house impressed me.
Anyone have thoughts or experience with this kinds of system?
-Fletch

I my last house, we had a shallow well (27ft) that had just about every water problem imaginable, yet once we got it to the point of use it was as good as bottled water (or better, no plastic taste that some of the cheaper crap has).

We treated each problem indivdually.

Iron/sulphur.
Had it's own filter. Self regenerating, zero maintenance. There was also an inline aerator in from of it which improves the performance. Cost installed is about $800. We rented, since we (I) knew we'd eventually sell the place. The sulpher smell would only appear in the summer (we bought in the winter, so didn't catch it before we bought it. Before installation, turning on the shower for the first time in May would make you vomint.

Hardness.
Standard water softner. The water was so hard, you could chew it. Something like 600ppm or something stupid. Another $800 (we rented again) but they can go up to $5K (insanity) for the digital whiz bang ones (KISS). Add salt. Great showers, and only about a 1/4C of soap to do laundry. Downside, water acutally tasted like salt because of the amount needed to soften the water. Plus it was noisey, wasted a ton of water on the regen cycle and you always had to add salt. AFAIK, this is still the ONLY proven way to soften water.

Fecal/Coliform.
Spring run-off caused this problem (I suspect the realtor and owner shocked the well before the water was tested) but it was winter when we bought. Installed a UV lamp as protection. $350. PITA. Leaked at fair amount. $100/year for bulbs. Put an inline sediment filter in front. The clearer the water, the more effective the UV is.


Salty Taste at tap.

Installed a point of use R/O system under the sink. Perfect drinking water. Another $350. Pretty low maintenace. Clean 1 per year. Filters every 2.

$2500 seems like a lot for just Sulphur.

[WNYcabinplannin]

Jason-
I agree I have a lot less wrong with my water than most-
the only reason I'm leaning towards that system is this:
Whatever I do, the sulfur(&bacteria) will need chlorine and if I don't use this on demand system, I'll need a large tank in the basement.
I don't 'need' a water softener, but my wife wants it. Like you said, the softener systems can be expensive, and it's one more tank in the basement.
I just think that all of these systems separately would cost me more than this $2500 all-in-one system and eat up a lot less footprint. My basement has radiant, like yours, and will eventually be living space. I'm hoping to enclose everything in my 'mechanical room' : water system including tankless water heater and the radiant manifold and controls, washer & dryer, a main electric panel (well away from H2O)
I'd be fine spending a few $ more than minimum for less footprint and maintenance. The only reason not to do a system like this would be price, you think?

[Timberwolf]

I'm not an expert, but we never used chlorine to treat the sulphur, that's why I suggested the simple Iron/Sulphur filter. You could always rent a system as a trial (I think ours was less than $30/month) and give it a whirl. Up here, the water treatment guys are/were churning out a huge business scaring people (especially seniors) after the Wakerton event. It lead to a bunch of competion, so you can wheel these guys into an open/no commitment 6th month trial or something similar. Then you'll have a better idea of what will work, for very little out of pocket.

[WNYcabinplannin]

I sent an email to the well pounder who put in my well, as he knows more about it than most. He replied:


Hi first talk with your neighbors. nothing at all appeals to me . we raised two kids on no filters at all they grew up healthy. hard water is not bad for you. The worst advice I ever got was from a salesman Jim
Maybe I'll just leave some extra valves in the main line in case I want to add a system later. Hook up the well pump and let it run for a while. I'm putting a temporary toilet into the future basement 1/2bath so we have a John operational.

[weedgnr]

If you haven't made a decision yet I suggest you research Easy Water. It's what I would use in place of the typical salt style water softener.

[nobleknight]

You may be surprised how much rain water you can collect. I have a garage/shop with 4500 sq. ft. of roof. The rain gutter people calculate in one significant storm 3500 gallons of rain water. Remember, the noble weather man collects rain in a test tube. I left a wheelbarrow outside, and it collected over 4 inches of rain. That day it was reported we received .135 inches. Where I live, we receive 16 inches of rain per year. I believe it is much higher, when applied to larger areas. You have pine trees all over your property, and they need plenty of water to survive.

There is a book called: "Rain Water Harvesting for Dry Lands and Beyond". This guy lives in Tucson, and has no city water. He relies only on the rain. He even has citrus planted all over his yard.

If you were to purify the rain water with RO, the rejection rate would be significantly lower than your well water. Your well water could possibly reject 5 gallons to make one good gallon. Some areas near me the rejection rate is 7 gallons. The down side of this is where does this bad water go. It can add up quickly, and may not be good for plants or your septic.

You may be able to save some expense of the household system, if you use the rain for your drinking water. Just remember to place the collected water into black tanks. You do not want light getting to this supply. Light causes growth in many forms.

Tom

[Thomas Pannell]

Growing up in the South, I've lived in 6 or 7 different places with wells. Never sampled city water until in high school. When I wanted a drink of water, I had to go out to the well, open the lid on the well box, and dip the bucket in the water (occasionally pushing a frog aside) and draw it up. When I lived in Georgia near the city of Brunswick, the sulphur was intense, but we simply got the water as cold as possible and drank it. I know there were risks involved, but fortunately I lived through them all. A couple of years ago I had a water softener system I purchased from Lowes installed in my mother's mobile home because the iron deposits in her hot water heater almost outweighed the water heater. The well they use has been in operation for all the life I can remember and I'm 63. I don't know if it has ever been tested, but it is highly unlikely my grandfather ever did so. However, I value the life I have remaining, so I will take what I have read here seriously and have my well water tested even though it will probably come from the same aquifer. I appreciate all the info you guys have put up here. Thanks, seriously.


http://s1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa451/steelcb/Log%20home%20on%20Angel%20Ridge/

[Thomas Pannell]

Growing up in the South, I've lived in 6 or 7 different places with wells. Never sampled city water until in high school. When I wanted a drink of water, I had to go out to the well, open the lid on the well box, and dip the bucket in the water (occasionally pushing a frog aside) and draw it up. When I lived in Georgia near the city of Brunswick, the sulphur was intense, but we simply got the water as cold as possible and drank it. I know there were risks involved, but fortunately I lived through them all. A couple of years ago I had a water softener system I purchased from Lowes installed in my mother's mobile home because the iron deposits in her hot water heater almost outweighed the water heater. The well they use has been in operation for all the life I can remember and I'm 63. I don't know if it has ever been tested, but it is highly unlikely my grandfather ever did so. However, I value the life I have remaining, so I will take what I have read here seriously and have my well water tested even though it will probably come from the same aquifer. I appreciate all the info you guys have put up here. Thanks, seriously.


http://s1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa451/steelcb/Log%20home%20on%20Angel%20Ridge/

[rocklock]

update...2013 November.
1. My well puts out .6 gallons of water per minute... That's right about 2 quarts... and its nasty.
2. I had to move my storage tank over to near my log home. This is because I need a bunch of water to backwash my filters. The old storage tank cut up and made into my garbage composer with a lid. The new storage tank (500 gal. and below ground to keep it warm during the winter) has a pump that keeps the house water pressure between 42 and 68 psi.
3. I now have two Big Blue water filters filtering out 50 and then 20 microns of stuff. They plug up about every three months.
4. I have a water softener (very expensive) with a big salt barrel that back washes into my septic.
5. I have a gigantic carbon (expensive) filter that back washes (about 120 gallons of chlorine free water) into my garden twice a week.
6. I have started to inject chlorine ($900) into my storage tank to try to keep it around 1 ppm. I installed it my self from a web site called Budget Water. If I had started with them I would have saved a bunch.
7. My water is not clear. It is slightly yellow or barely yellow. I believe it is from tannins but next year I will address this problem.

The piping for the back flushes is very complex but it works.

Now I have plumbed the two toilets and sinks on the first floor.

Hot water will be an on demand heater that I have no idea where the flue will go. I'm thinking about heating the two bathrooms and then exiting through the bird blocks. But more later...

[loghousenut]

Thanks Rocklock, I feel a lot better now. I only have 1/2 gallon per minute but it is sweet and clear and I have 1500 gallons of it just sitting there waiting for me.

[loghousenut]

Upon reflection it has occurred to me that you may be talking about your well in Hawaii... You're a lucky man Rocklock!

[rocklock]

This is the east wall of my utility room... Pex is in process as wall as the radiant heat and furnace.
Note the piping behind the softener...
The latest addition is the small tank (16 gal. that contains 15 to one bleach), that has a pump on it that is controlled by the meter on top of the piping to the outside storage tank. This yields about 1 ppm. chloride.

2092

[cooper]

So with all that gear do you finally have decent water or is it still bad?

[rocklock]

My water is clear and a faint yellow color. I need to test it for tannins. This is the same stuff that is in wine...
So the real answer is I don't know for sure... It may require a tannin machine or I may install a RO at the point of use. But its hard to fill a tub with yellow water and bathe. Since I haven't in 60 years, your conclusion is obvious.

[cooper]

I had my water tested because it was fellow and they told me tannins. Found out they aren't bad for you but I didn't like the color either. Luckily all I did was add a sediment and carbon filter and it took care of the clarity.

The water filter pros I was dealing with locally told me I had to buy a filter to remove the iron for $1500 before I could deal with the tannins because they attach to iron. I figured I'd try the cheap filter first and it took care of clarity and taste, so I haven't pursued it further.

During my research however, I found a guy called "the well guru" in Florida, who was the only person that seemed to me like the real deal. His systems are all custom to your well, and not cheap, but he didn't come off as a bullshitter, and I tend to have a pretty good sense of who's trying to burn me. Google it if you're interested.