Loblolly pines

[blueadept]

Hey guys,
My brother and I just bought 12 acres of land; I'm on the waiting list for January's class and if I can't get in because no one cancels, I'll go to the next class that's available.
Here's my dilemma: the land is planted in loblolly pines, I think they're about 12-15 years old or so; they're about 9-10" diameter at the base and 20-30' tall and with quite a bit of taper, I think. I want to sell most or all of the timber this winter (that's when I can get the best price and I want to start planting an orchard in the spring), but am wondering whether it's worth leaving some of the trees for logs for a home to be built in the next 2-5 years or whether I should just go ahead and cut them down and buy logs that would be better.
I know the advice is to take the class before buying logs, but I have these trees on my property and need to know whether I should cut them down for sale or not. Can anyone help?
Thanks!
Alex

[rreidnauer]

Too small for a proper log home, so I'd sell them off. Of course, I wouldn't cut them until your sure they are sold. Last thing you want to do is find yourself with a pile of logs, no buyer, and a stopwatch starting to count off the minutes. That would put the bargaining leverage in the hands of the buyer.

They could be used for a shed or something smaller, but for a home, I'd want something in the 10"+ on the small end.

[blueadept]

Thanks, that's what I figured but I wanted to be sure. The forestry guy in the area said I could get a few thousand for the trees as chip and saw, mainly to burn at a local power generation plant; I'll be talking to buyers in the coming month or so.

[ivanshayka]

I would save at least some of them to build a shed or two, you will need the shed for orchard and tools while you are building log home. But, that is just my 2 cent.
Ivan

[blueadept]

I'm going to save some for a shed, but I'm planting a small bamboo grove too. Bamboo will be really easy to build with for things that don't need a whole lot of insulation like sheds and raised bed boxes a la square foot gardening. I've got an idea for how to build an insulated structure with bamboo too (build double walls and fill the space inside with plastic bags full of compost, similar to earthbags, as insulation) but that might be harder to get through the code people than a log home.
I'm going over there in a week and a half to walk the property and mark trees I might want to save, so if I find some bigger trees that could actually be worth using as logs for a home, I'll mark them so the loggers don't take them. I'm also going to mark some trees around the outside of the property so I can attach deer fencing to them instead of having to put in fence posts.

[melissahimes]

Hi blueadept,
Have you ever built with bamboo before? I did part of a house out of bamboo several years ago. One word of warning...insects! You need to treat your bamboo for a good month before using it. Where I lived they recommended keeping it under water for a month. I've also heard you can rest it for a month in a stand of young bamboo. These insect voraciously ate away at my bamboo, leaving crazy piles of dust everywhere, but worst of all, making it very weak and easy to pull down. Bamboo roof rafters look pretty sweet though. :)
Cheers/Melissa

[blueadept]

Hi Melissa!
I haven't built with ANYTHING before, which is why I'm exploring lots of alternatives. From what I understand, you can cut down the 3-6 year old bamboo culms in the spring when all the starches go to the new and growing culms, and then dry them during the summer on a rock in the grove. I also read that you can treat them with borate at the same time - leave the leaves on the top of bamboo to increase transpiration and set the bottoms of the culms in a borate solution so that transpiration and capillary action draw the borate through the culm. That's what I was going to do to make it last a long time. If you have any other tips, I'd love to hear them as I'm planning on building chicken coops and square foot gardening boxes with it, too!
Thanks,
Alex

[melissahimes]

Hey Alex,
Well, I didn't do much of the building process (I am like you, even though I've piddled with small projects I am in no way a builder! :)). I did split a bunch of the bamboo to make the slats for my walls, and I did a bit of the nailing. Nailing bamboo can also be tricky as it can split the slat if the slat has turned brittle...creating joints and things the same. The roof rafters of my house, which were whole pieces of bamboo, were actually tied down to the structure of the house with wire as it was impossible to nail them securely. The corrugated tin roof was nailed (of course!) to the bamboo though. I will say that once a section of the roof blew off during a very bad storm!
Using bamboo for chicken coops, garden boxes, fencing, etc. would be fine, but honestly I wouldn't recommend it for a structure you live in unless you're really skilled at working with it.
Also remember that once you plant bamboo it will take over! Maybe there are North American varieties that are not like this...but I'd keep it awayyyy from your house and gardens. :)
The borate solution sounds interesting. If that kills the bugs...woo hoo!
Sounds like you're going to be having a lot of fun down the road. :)Cheers/Melissa

[blueadept]

Hey Melissa,
Really good points on everything! I wanted to share a few links I've found during my research:
<a href="http://www.bamboocentral.org/index1.htm">http://www.bamboocentral.org/index1.htm</a> - treatment manual and a lot of both general and specific information about building with bamboo. Meant for tropical bamboo for developing countries but I'm betting it'll work the same with the temperate bamboo I want to use.
<a href="http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/bamboohouse.htm">http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/bamboohouse.htm</a> - where I stole the original house design idea.
<a href="http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/the-9/FIBERGLASS,-CLOTH,CHOPPED,-STRAND,-MAT/Detail">http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/the-9/FIBERGLASS,-CLOTH,CHOPPED,-STRAND,-MAT/Detail</a> - I think this would make a good rhizome barrier even without epoxy or resin (except to join the ends) to prevent the bamboo from taking over; also since I'll be surrounding it with alder, it should get shaded out and be unable to compete for sun except where I give it dominance intentionally.
As far as nailing, my parents bought a bamboo bar for their deck and it looks like the kit bamboo culms were bolted together. I saw something on the web about how to connect bamboo that way but don't remember where exactly.
The species I'm planning on growing (and eventually using) is Phyllostachys bambusoides aka Madake, the Japanese timber bamboo. I'd rather use North American bamboo (which can be just as invasive) but apparently it's a lot tougher to get the grove established. It's definitely a running, invasive bamboo but from what I understand, the proper rhizome barrier (not to mention competition for light from alders and birches) should keep it from getting too far out of control.

[melissahimes]

When I opened up one of the links I thought - that looks like a house in SE Asia. And lo and behold that's what it was designed for! One of the other links had a picture of a house with woven bamboo mats which reminded me of something I also saw quite a bit - people pound the bamboo flat and then weave it to create these really sturdy walls. No idea how they pound it out...I'm sure you could find something.
Some former neighbors in Cambodia would be laughing if they saw this discussion. They couldn't wait to upgrade out of their bamboo hut/house to a proper wooden one! :) "You crazy Americans!" :)
Anyway, you sure have done your homework. I love experimenting and dreaming about all that kind of stuff. :)

[blueadept]

Yeah, I guess I'm a bit worried about the whole using-bamboo-for-housing thing, too. As much as I'd love to save money on the logs and grow my own house, I don't want to wait 5-6 years to start construction either, since that's how long it'll take the bamboo grove to start producing enough culms to build a nice size house. As long as I have enough for garden boxes and chicken coops to start with, I'll be happy.

[loghousenut]

Who woulda thunk that this thread would take off like it did. I am also a fan of bamboo, the tallest grass in the world. In the event that you decide to build a house of logs, all that bamboo won't have to go to waste. You'll still need scaffolding.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Wow/24706452HK80HighrisebambooscaffoldingJA.jpg

[blueadept]

My girlfriend calls me a ninja lumberjack. She has no idea...

[melissahimes]

I love seeing that bamboo scaffolding. Bamboo is such an interesting material. I'm still not convinced about it's longevity though. Most people I know who had bamboo houses had to do major replacement work on the bamboo portions every 3 or 4 years. Have either of you seen any research about this?

[blueadept]

I haven't seen anything on replacement frequency. I think at this point I've pretty much decided against bamboo and it's down to just logs, except of course the chicken coops and garden boxes and such. Maybe furniture, too. And I can always sell bamboo for profit...
Did the people with bamboo houses you're talking about treat their bamboo? 3-4 years seems about right for what I've heard about untreated bamboo poles used for fencing and staking.

[melissahimes]

Their places were definitely untreated. They used bamboo because it was free to cut and they didn't have the money for lumber (or chemicals or anything). You know what a lot of Cambodians use as a general piece of hangout furniture - a bamboo frame about the size and height of a double bed...with thin bamboo slats laid over the top with thin gaps in between. In a hot climate there is nothing better than taking a nap on one of those (or eating dinner or whatever). Bamboo is a really comfortable material to sit/lay on.

[blueadept]

I know these guys are offering prefab bamboo houses that are built to code:
<a href="http://www.bambooliving.com/">http://www.bambooliving.com/</a>
I assume they treat their bamboo somehow so that it lasts long enough for the code enforcement people to sign off on it. They're pretty expensive though, compared to building your own log home (or even building your own bamboo home from homegrown bamboo). They also use a tropical bamboo species as opposed to the temperate Madake I'll be growing, but the Japanese have used Madake in construction for a long time.
From the FAQ:
How long do your bamboo houses last?A: A Bamboo Living Home has a lifespan as long as or longer than any conventional wood framed building if it is properly installed &amp; maintained. In Japan, bamboo structures have a history of lasting 200 years.

[melissahimes]

Those are really cool houses...but yeah, really expensive!!!