This Thread has disturbed my thinking!

[RJones]

TimberWolf, you are right! I am done waisting my energy on that subject, time to focus on the project at hand. Admins, please delete this thread!! I am sorry for the venting..

Randy

[StressMan79]

[quote] Skip's classes are for real. Actually it's the Log Home Builders Association of North America that we're talking about here. Skip founded it, but the classes are mostly being taught by Mike White these days. It's not magic. In two days, everyone gets a basic course in log cabin construction, plus the physical instruction of doing everything once. Raising up a log once, making one shake that sort of thing. After that, everyone is a member of LHBANA. Members are encouraged to go work on each others houses and particpate in monthly meetings. There's a newsletter and various chat forums and unlimited access to the instructors. It may not sound like much to you but it is a system that has worked very well for 35 years. I've known many members who went right out after the two day class and built a house. I've known many more who never built a house. I was somewhere in the middle, I've been a member since 1974 but it took me a couple of helping sessions and 20 years before I started on my own log house. The point is, other than the two day class, everything is free. These people aren't trying to sell you anything so it's a good group to go to for advice. They've been around for a long time, have seen just about every fly-by-night scheme for kit building cabins that there has ever been invented and they know a con job when they see one. I think that'swhy the LHBANA gets dumped on so badly whenever there is a discussion by "professional" builders.

you can visit Paul's site here: http://paulkahle.com/log.html

I actually read lots of LHOTI posts that claim that BnP cabins are the worst thing ever. We basically ignore it and keep to ourselves. You are of course free to consider it, but I can tell you, I have been in half a dozen very nice, warm, and extremely structurally sound cabins built the "Skippy" method. (BTW, anyone referring to it as the "skippy" method does not understand it, and has built in biases.

[RJones]

I have been in a few of the "Skippy" homes and there is no doubt in my mind how strong these home can be. I will use this method to build my home (with the freindly help of you guys as my consultants) lol It just bothers me how someone people can try to knock other people down just because they do things differently. I am glad that I do not see that type of attitude here! Stressman, your right, I will ignore it! So, they were claiming that using mortar for chinking is a bad idea, that it cracks, lets in water, falls out, promotes rotting. Another claim is that using rebar (which sweats according to the guy) causing rotting in the logs. Another claim was that hanging the floor on the first course of logs was alot of extra work and not good. Another claim was that the pier foundation method was not adequate. Can/will you guys respond to the claims? I want to learn as much as I can about the "Skippy" method because the ideas and methods are a perfect fit for me and my wife. We can do this with some hard work. I couldnt build a stick home nor would I want to. I am new to the log home building and trying to learn as much as possible before the class.
Peter, I enjoy reading your comments, your very knowledgeable about this stuff. Plus, I want to go off the grid and harvest my water and I know you are going there too if not already there. I am in the early stages right now, looking for land, collecting tools, and gathering materials. Its been a fun experience and I cant wait to start buillding the cabin!

[Timberwolf]

Trust me I mean no offense.
What has gone before...
No good came of it the last time. Ignore them, and let bygones be bygones.
Take the class, build your home.
Timberwolf.
Member since 2008, currently building my first log home.

[loghousenut]

Randy, If they ask, just tell 'em that my 18 year-old Son is the one on the ridgepole. This house will belong to his Grandkids some day. I am proud of him. It'll be owned free and clear by his parents when it is finished and he (and I) cherrish each day spent working on it. What more could you ask of a style of building?

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Wow/Rafters9-2010442.jpg

PS... Delete the thread if you want to but I really don't care what they call me. I'm building.... Maybe not building quickly, but building nonetheless. You know, we can't save everyone, but we saved me. Thank you Skip.

[StressMan79]

So, they were claiming that using mortar for chinking is a bad idea, that it cracks, lets in water, falls out, promotes rotting.
Mortar has been used for >100 yrs. The improvement is we use stuff to keep it from falling out.
It does crack, but the cracks are so small as to be almost invisible and are cosmetic only
Mortar lets in water, but more importantly, It lets it out. You will find that water occasionally touching your logs is not a real concern, but trapping moisture will result in the untimely demise of any wooden structure
I have never heard of mortar promoting rotting. At Bodie (ghost town not far from my place), there is (unsupported) mortar that is still between the logs. The logs are not rotting under it.
Another claim is that using rebar (which sweats according to the guy) causing rotting in the logs.

for something to "sweat" it needs to be exposed to the air (humid air) and be cold. Your rebar is in the middle of the log wall, so for the logs act as a big heat sink (and humidity sink--kind of a humidor). Any condensaation (which you COULD concievably get if you cooled the house to frigid temps and had a very hot/humid day, may cause a few droplets of water to bud on the rebar, but it would not roll down, as there is not enough air volume in between the logs to provide anything but a few grains of water. This condensation will evaporate before morning, and no harm will come to your logs. This argument is kind of like saying "don't use any metal in your construction, b/c it will sweat."
Another claim was that hanging the floor on the first course of logs was alot of extra work and not good.

You can lay 15000lb+ of logs on each side of your first floor, but I don't recommend it. It is not that hard, they show you the easiest way to do it in class.
Another claim was that the pier foundation method was not adequate.
It may not be for some reasons--you might have very poor soil in bearing. Like mine. I went with a stem wall for this very reason. This is an easy calculation to do and it will be reviewed by your engineer (if you have one) or you if you don't.
You may want to go with a basement if you have a low frost line.
They go through all the options and concerns in class.

[RJones]

Loghouse nut....you and your son are an inspiration! I have looked at your pics many times. My son is 10 right now and wants to help me build the home. It will be a few years before I get started, though.
Stressman, thanks for helping me "see" through these false claims. I do not know alot about construction and engineering so my eyes are blind right now. It all makes sense to me now. From the responses on this thread, I am guessing that you guys hear about this website every now and then. Sorry to beat on the dead horse, I didnt know any better. I know one thing, I will steer clear of that site looking for knowledge of log homes! Can you guys recommend any other reading on the net, I have read this site like three or four times now!! haha

[edkemper]

You will be a valued member of the family. I look forward to you joining us on the other side.

[Basil]

Been living in mine two years now. Chinking isn't falling out, roof is still where it should be, windows haven't shattered from settling, doors open and close just fine, and I OWN IT. How's that for a recommendation? It's not easy, don't be lulled into thinking it is. but it can be done, and it's worth it.

[StressMan79]

so the "sweating" quandry got me re-studying my "psycometric chart" from thermodynamics in college. two cases: winter and summer. The midpoint of the wall will be assumed to be average temp and humidity.
1 grain = 1/7000 lbm
density of air@ STP=.074887lbm/ft3
the middle of the wall is assumed to remain constant, and not change temp due to condensation of water
the hot/humid air is assumed to traverse to the center of the wall. It turns out that the condensation depends only on the temp of the center of the wall, not the RH there (for this simple analysis).
1 winter (the critical case)
Inside Temp:80 deg/60%RH,
Outside Temp: 0 deg/30%RH,
middle of wall: 40deg/45%RH
http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm471/stressman79/winterpsy.jpg
There is 38 grains of H2O for every lb of dry air between the condensation pt @40 deg. so for every cu ft of dry air, there is roughly 4 ten thousanths of a lb of water that can possibly condense on your rebar per cu ft of hot air. The space between the mortar is maybe 3 inches high by 6 inches wide. There are 2 ft between rebars, or a volume of .25cf. that is roughly 1 ten thousanth of 1 lb of water on each stick of rebar. if there are 16 ounces/lb, that is 1.6 thousanths of an ounce, or ~46cubic mm.
That last number seems pretty high... How thick is that on our 1/2 inch rebar?
there are much more than 3040 mm2 on a stick of 1/2 inch rebar, 3 inches long (lots of knurls, rememeber), but that is a coating 1.5 hundredths of 1 mm thick, or roughly 1/6 the thickness of a human hair,
Not enough to bead, and definitely not enough to run, considering all of the knurls on a stick of rebar.

summer (for your reference)
http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm471/stressman79/summerpsy.jpg
Inside:65deg/40%RH
Outside: 100deg/80%RH
middle of wall82.5 deg/60%RH

[R_Cullen]

Wouldn't using a closed-cell foam combat this since it will block most moisture from entering between the logs?
A log wall will "absorb" heat, so I am lead to believe anyway(please correct my thinking if this is false), which will alter the temperature between your chinking and pushing the "dew point" closer to the outside of the wall and away from your rebar. Is this correct?

Just trying to understand

[loghousenut]

Speak English! What are you trying to say Stessman? Blink once for yes, squeeze my hand.... do SOMETHING that lets us know that you are trying to communicate with us. We love you Peter but you have to talk to us hahahhahahhahhaahhhahaha.

[StressMan79]

1: any time you try to "keep water out" by absolute means, you run the risk of keeping it in. For instance, at Boeing, we use tie rods (hollow tubes with lugs on both ends) to connect things. We used to prescribe sealants to keep the water out of the tubes. Turns out, you can't keep the water out of all the tubes all the time, so now we just vent the tubes. Having a few drops of water touch the metal doesn't hurt, but having even a drop sealed inside for months is a big problem.
2: If you look at the psychometric plots, it turns out that the humidity at the center of the wall does not affect the dew point. Each dry-bulb temp has only one temp where there is condensation (wet bulb), and this is irrespective of humidity level. I assumed it to be at the average of the two, but it really does not matter.
LHN, "Even if water condenses, there is no way that there will be enough to cause any damage to the house." This is especially true, as my analysis assumes all the air between rebar is mobile. In reality, it is stopped by fiberglass from moving around much.
-Peter

[edkemper]

Huh? Not such a backwoods kind of club we have here.

[Mosseyme]

Can we really truly do the roof with rigid foam with no venting and not get condensation? What about the open spacing with the skip decking?
Keep on getting feedback from sticker's that you gotta vent roofing to prevent rot. I know don't listen to them but sometimes it is hard.

[loghousenut]

So why not just vent and be done with it? I did. Can't hurt anything and it's not a tough or expensive job.

[R_Cullen]

unless it's SIPs panels or spray foam, you gotta vent. Heck, even with SIPS panels you need to vent in certain area's/situations.

[RJones]

Ok, now that just blows me away! I always love reading your comments, but man, you went out in left field this time! I did understand the conclusion, though! lol ..Ok, so you can crunch some numbers and write out fancy equations, but can you put a square peg in a round hole?
Keep it up, Stressman!
Randy

[rawson]

I'd almost be willing to book odds that the Stressman can put a square peg in a round hole or discuss the modifications, forces and adjustments needed to do so, a dollar to a dime probably a sure bet and easy money. You got to put a forth a challenge that might entail a calculation that involves stacking and the forces associated with it, such as, grains of sand to reach the Moon and the physics involved ie.. force of gravity, weight of sand, mortar or no mortar and other high tech terms and theories. He is probably all ready working on constructing cosmic synthetic log homes off the grid mind you without the need of rebar or chinking. I'm still waiting for the stock market IPO in this venture.