Choosing the right land?

[idreamofpines]

Hi,

I'm looking at buying 20 acres of timbered land in Idaho for 64,000. A well is already on site, power is nearby. What should I be looking into before buying this property? What should I look for in the trees to see if I could use any for the construction of the cabin? Determining building sites? I know these questions can be answered by taking the class, which I fully plan on doing. However, affordable land in this area is hard to come by and time is an issue so I may have to decide some things before I'm able to take the class.

Thanks!

[rreidnauer]

Welcome to LHBA.

The first and most important thing for any piece of land is water. You say you have a well. Make certain that there is sufficient water that can be obtained from it, and a water quality test wouldn't be a bad idea either. There should be a record of flow rates from the well driller. I wouldn't buy the land without these records.

Next important concern is the handling of septic. A perc test should be performed and a passing test should be a contingency of the sales agreement.

Access to the land. Do you have road frontage? How about a legal right-of-way or easement. Are there other easements/right-of-ways across the land you are looking at? Speaking of road frontage, determined if the public road is maintained or not.

Lay of the land. Is it flat, steep, in a floodplain? Steep and sloping land means more costly foundations and more work overall. Low lands and floodplains may mean issues with septics and risk of flooding. If you got trees big enough to use for your property, great! But keep in mind that what you remove is going to take a long time to be replaced. Will this ruin a million dollar view if you go that route? If sloping, which way does the land face? All too many properties I looked at were North facing. Not only was this bad for my solar goals, it puts your home in a nearly permanent shadow the entire Winter, which means more heating costs, deeper snow, and in my opinion, bad for one's psyche.

Finally, all the legal mumbo jumbo. Make sure there are no liens and all taxes are up to date. Title search and insurance is HIGHLY recommended. Make sure someone else doesn't own the timber rights.

Good luck with your decision.

[Yuhjn]

Rod is right that you should check out the well. Generally nothern ID is soggy as heck. So many lakes, rivers, streams, springs, and so on. From what I've seen water is rarely a problem in that area so you're probably in good shape, but make sure.

One thing to consider though with all the water is your perc test. Rod mentioned that as well, but be very sure your land can support a septic and find out what kind you'll need. Cost will vary considerably depending on what kind of system is required by your land.

And finally I would add that if your land is timbered, what kind and more importantly how big? This gets into information in the class, but if you are planning to use the timber to build your home with, you need to make sure it's suitable. It would obviously be an undesirable situation to buy land with the intent of using that timber to build, only to find out later that the trees are not suitable for house logs.

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Check for radon. Northern Idaho is near areas that are
well known to have high levels of uranium in the soil.

I did hear of a horror story from a realtor. The land was
only $29,000, but it wasn't disclosed that the land had
uranium in the soil and was leaching incredibly high levels
of radon.

-Rick

[StressMan79]

radon is a potential issue, not so bad if you don't have a basement (it comes from rocks and is heavier than air, so sinks to the low parts of the house). I might be tempted to build on piers (or put vents low in the crawlspace) to vent. Basements in such areas are bad news. I don't know how you check for radon in an open field/building site....

[mountains for me]

Definitely take the class, there are still 5 spots left in Vegas, which is pretty close to you. That is your best first investment. I know I thought I could do a lot of things without taking the class, but I have changed so many plans, because of things I learned in class, and comments and experiences of members here on the forum. Rod did a pretty thorough job of hitting many highlights, just one other thing I would add.

I was about to purchase a beautiful nicely timbered 10 acre lot in Colorado, for under 10K, but I checked with the local county planning and building commission, I noticed the legal description of the property was part of a patented mining claim. When I called planning and zoning at the county, they told me even though I could get clear title to the land, that I couldn't build on it, because it was in a mining district. Hopefully, this won't be your case, but in most western states, I would definitely check out US Forest service, BLM, county, tax liens, any other liens. Good Luck and welcome to the forum.

[idreamofpines]

How do you check for radon?

Thanks!

[StressMan79]

I don't know how you check for radon in an open field/building site....

http://www.epa.gov/radon/states/idaho.html#zone%20map

You can check for it in an existing house with a storebought radon detector, like this: http://www.radon.biz/proseriesiiiradonmonitor.aspx?gclid=CJSitbL1vp8CFQ MsawodCSUczw

*please note that I have no interest in which or even if you buy. I just googled "radon detector" and picked the first advertised hit.

-Peter

[ChainsawGrandpa]

I was told radon exists where uranium is present.
A gieger counter is used to detect uranium, and I
wonder if a large wooden box could be inverted
and a radon detector placed inside.

G'pa

[rreidnauer]

. . . . . or simply tarp off a large portion of ground.

[davids]

Was wondering by all of everyone's past experience, what is the minimum acreage that is ideal to have to peel, store the logs and build on? Is an acre of flat ground enough to work with, or is 2 or 3 better? Thanks for your input. I'm doing a 30X30.

[ramblinman502]

someone just did those calculations...let me find em...ahh it was rmurphy..n heres what he says..

To directly answer your question (sorry about the philosophy), you need at least two feet per log for average diameter logs (mine are 12 - 17 inches at butt). If you had 20 logs on a rack I would allocate 45 feet in width and then whatever the length of your logs are plus at least 10 feet. that gives you room for the logs and some room to turn them as well. If you have 100 logs that is going to take up approximately 200 ft plus (I would say 220) and 40 or 50 feet in length. Sounds like that will take up most of your area unfortunately.

Think about the trees around this area as well. We have a half dozen trees lining our wood stacks and they are still causing heck when trying to move them to the build site, but I refuse to cut them down.

In addition to that you need to make sure that you have room for your log trucks to arrive and unload. I would have 15 feet in width for a truck and at least ..hmm..60 feet or so.

Don't forget the unloader!

Now for the house site itself. You need at least 40 feet on each side to work a forklift. And that is minimum. That is a lift with four wheel steering (which I HIGHLY recommend). As it is you are going to want to more space, but it is doable.

If I were you Pat, I would draw out my lot on paper and try and figure out how you are going to lay all this out. Without spending a huge amount of time thinking about it, I would say its going to be very tight for you. I am not sure how you an do it without practically clear cutting your site. The logs take up such a large area it's hard imagine without making some estimates as I did and laying it out. I will certainly do so next time if I don't have a clear lot (oh...and I won't have a clear log..as I am building on the other half of this lot next..darn :) mo

[rocklock]

.

[edkemper]

I am going to spray paint lines on the ground to orient myself. I need to lay out 4 buildings, some with covered porches. I'm a visual kind of guy. It never looks the same on paper.

[Cbear429]

Welcome to LHBA.

Next important concern is the handling of septic. A perc test should be performed and a passing test should be a contingency of the sales agreement.

Good luck with your decision.
-------------------------
We have looked at land in our area utilizing Google Earth, which shows elevations and a county website program that shows the area terrains types, ground /soil conditions and flooding areas. Over the years this test has come up a lot. One property we saw and love ?could not? be Perc?d. (A potential bargaining chip, I think, if the following applies). However we were informed that with recent technology a septic ?mound? could be built by adding soil for the septic tank? This makes no sense to me though. Can this be done? Maybe the class will go into this in more detail. I?ll add it to my list of questions.
We also go looking for property during moderate to heavy rains to make sure the property and surrounding area does not flood.
Thanks,
Cecil

[donjuedo]

I have been skeptical of a couple of explanations of septic fields. I do know they can work, and very well, too, so I plan to go this route when the time comes. One person told me you couldn't pave over a septic field, because if you did, the pavement would block the water evaporating. They said the water goes up, not down.

If blocking water from going up would lead to failure, how would septic fields work when covered in snow for a month or two at a time, or even more? Do they fail and I've just not heard of it?

Common sense tells me a septic field drains down into the earth, and also evaporates when it can. Someone chime in and correct me if I've off base on this one.

Also, here in Spotsylvania County, Virginia, I have been told that the county REQUIRES septic tanks to be pumped periodically, whether or not there is a problem. If dictating this expense is such a good thing, why aren't all the other counties in the country suffering from not requiring it? Obviously, I object to this one.

By the way, I have heard the system you described called a "cat box". I look forward to learning details about how it solves the perc problem (I hear it does).


Peter

[patrickandbianca]

I am by no means a septic expert but I can answer a few things.
Septic tanks need to be pumped every few years because not everything that gets put down a drain decomposes. That stuff builds up in a tank over time and eventually will flow out into your leach field, clogging it, requiring repair or replacement. Leach fields only last a finite amount of time (~25 years, depending on use), not pumping out the tank shortens this time.

Paving over a drain field. I think it depends on how deep your drain field is. In North Carolina we couldnt because the drain field was only buried 2 feet. The pavement wouldnt be bad, i dont think, but the prep for the pavement would be. Anything that compacts the soil is bad for a septic system.
Mound systems are fairly common in wet areas. They are more expensive (~2x), but better than having land you cant build on. If you have land that wont perc, you just haul in dirt that will to build up and area for you drain field. The problem with these is that when it comes time to replace them, there is not always room for another 1/2 acre mound. My nieghbor in Florida had to have his old mound removed and a new one put in. It was a royal pita.
Patrick

[Timberwolf]

You absolutley DO NOT WANT to pave over your septic. For one, the ashpalt would never be stable enough to use.

Septic systems rely on microbes in the soil to break down and sterilize waste. They need O2 to do this. Paving = bad.

The septic at my place rarely has snow covering it (at least the tank). The heat from the breakdown of poo melts it. I know it's working. If it was covered, either we got a lot of snow, or it 's not working and I should be worried.

Pumping is required. Unless you want to replace your drain field more often. You'll know when it fails (or the tank is full) because if you flush the toilet upstairs, it will come out the toilet... downstairs.

This is not a lesson to be learned the hard way.

[donjuedo]

I agree with both of you, and do not wish to pave, nor avoid pumping. Actually, I do wish to avoid the NEED to pump, but do understand it and don't see how it could be avoided in any proper fashion.

I would have avoiding paving due to compaction, but also see the benefit of O2. Seeing evaporation as the primary means to get rid of water is what I have been doubting.

Pumping is OK by me, when needed. My big objection is being ordered to do it, without regard to system size/details/status/usage. In other words, being ordered to do it on a schedule seems excessive and unnecessarily costly to me.


Peter

[rreidnauer]

Agreed. But I understand why they want to enforce regularly scheduled pumpings, because people just don't know (or don't care) when they should. (just like turn signal laws, why do I need to turn it on if nobody else is there to see it?)

So, when does a tank need to be pumped? It all depends on what is, how much of, and how quickly stuff is introduced to the system. As previously mentioned, not everything is digestible by microbes. The holding tank will divide into three layers. When the indigestible top scum layer and bottom sludge layer exceed a point, it's time to pump out, before the middle clear layer which gets sent to the leechfield becomes contaminated by particulates from the other layers, clogging the leechfield and the system fails. The measurement of those layers which determine the point at which the tank should be pumped, I simply don't know.

My father once had a sign over the toilet in his RV that read, "Don't put it in here unless you've eaten it first." Good advice for an RV or any septic system. Other than septic safe toilet paper, nothing else should be flushed. That includes the use of garbage disposals.

[greenthumb]

I was just reading through my local septic requirements- one being that if you have a disposal, the capacity of the system should be increased 50%. Kleenex should not be thrown in a toilet, being made of cotton it does not break down the same, etc.

I'm looking into having a separate gray water system, possibly a bog design.

If anyone wants to read the documents I'm talking about, there is a thread on the members side. Interesting stuff....

[rawson]

Every once in a while I cannot resist a pitch-in with an ad lib or two. So much useful information on this site it boggles your mind. That comment about "if you cannot eat it don't flush it", are certainly words from very wise people, with the possibility that it might have it originated from the teachings of Confucius (could be a debate subject forum?). Most civilized constructed waste water systems are living planned out systems, some bacteria require free oxygen others can thrive without free oxygen present, a science all its own. Municipal waste-water treatment plants/lagoons are a science and an engineering force on its own merit and skill levels, with PHDs on the subject as a guiding force with their own lingo. One catching phrase in this field of study to the lay person is, "it might be crap to you but it is our "bread and butter".

On my own scale of survival on my recent home site/purchase, I am rigging up an elevated water storage system ( there is sufficient elevation for this to work a plus for having a hill side) to collect rain water/snow melt off of the home's roof into a series of 55 gallon barrels plus 275 gallon totes (which I have a good supply, free from my employer) plumbed together with bulk head fittings with PEX plumbing to two toilet tanks. I am hauling six barrels plus one tote this weekend. So for those still reading this, it is a free flush in progress with no anticipated monthly bill for sewer a thriving/living sustainable system and I figure to pump my own tank as needed in the future into a trench lined with quick lime then covered with earth material on an as needed basis (determined by, plug your nose inspections, oh almost forgot my waste don't stink).

On a closing note as far as waste water is concerned on the poker table, always remember that a clean successful flush always beats a "FULL HOUSE" unless your totally pure keep that drain field away from the drinking water well!

K. Rawson

[StressMan79]

makes some of the most sense to me. I have included a separate surge tank (to be filled 1/3 with course rock), and a 40' drain line. I did no calculations, however, the whole idea for a gray water system is to limit the flow requirements of your main system. I estimate that the gray water system will take a majority of the flow out of the house, which is already cleaner than septic effluent. allowing for a smaller tank, the bacteria given more than twice the time to work on the sewage prior to it moving to the trenches.

Just because it makes sense, the "code" does not really support them. You certainly get no credit to your drainfield or tank size. You can be like me and don't even pursue your CO, or you can build twice as big... sure your system will last forever, but it would last longer than you will with the system I have. It may also last forever, as I will only be in it a couple months per year.

Anyway, septic is only one way that code does not work for off-grid (minimalistic) living. It assumes we all live in suburbia. One member had to wire his whole house to code and he has no electricity for 3 miles.

-Peter