Log Home, Will it Float?

[dancingsea]

Aloha,

You seem like a very friendly group! I've been plotting to move off the grid for over 10 years. Have the Solar Living Source Book, Finding and Buying Your Place in the Country, Mortgage Free!, One Man's Wilderness etc, and most recently, Logs Wind and Sun. Have studied about all sorts of building techniques, yurts, earthships, straw bale, cordwood masonry, passive solar design, etc. I live on Maui, an already expensive place that has gone through the roof for normal people, and I'm planning my escape to a forest somewhere on the mainland.

I will have more time than money, thus a do it yourself technique is appealing. A friend and I plan on taking 6 months to year off to build the home, around 1200 sq ft + a detached 400 sq ft (or so) art studio/ workshop. I've become very attracted to Log Homes (vs. the other more alternative techniques) because I feel the resale value will be higher with a much larger pool of potential buyers.

Here are a few questions, I'm sure more will follow:

1) We have very little building experience, actually, none beyond some renovation work. In that regard, our confidence level is a bit low, and hence the idea of a kit is on some levels attractive. I can accept that some kit makers are deadbeats, as this website well documents. But isn't it a bit extreme to paint a picture that all kit makers are a nightmare waiting to happen? Is it just as possible that a nightmare could unfold for very inexperienced do it yourselfers (like me) building a home from scratch using what they learn from this class?

2) The testimonials on this website are all very rosy, it would be nice to hear about some of the less positive experiences and how those circumstances were resolved. When I read "it's all so easy, two 70 lb midgets can do it" (ok, I'm paraphrasing (g)) I can't help but be skeptical. Is it really as easy as this website suggests? Especially for 2 people with virtually no building experience? I freely admit, I may be brainwashed by society into believing I have to pay "a professional" in order to have a decent home.

3) This website states something to the effect that a log home with an insulated roof is as, or more, energy efficient than a standard framed house. But how do log homes built using Skip's techniques compare to the straw bale, earthship, etc crowd in terms of efficiency? I know logs don't have near the R value of straw bale, do logs make up for it with thermal mass and are thus good for passive solar?

Thanks for your time!
John

[salinamatt]

I can answer one part of your questions. My husband and I have no experience with any type of construction but we are currently building a log home. We even logged the trees out ourselves and although the process was long and hard, we were able to do it.
We have had many people doubt us and tell us we were crazy but we kept on going and now we will be raising our walls within a couple of weeks.
Don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something. The only reason they tell you that is because they can't do it and they want to bring you down to thier level.
Have you taken the class? There are alot of people who took the class that would come and help you with your project or be available to give advice on any aspect of it.
You can do anything you set your mind to!

[dancingsea]

Thanks for the reply!

I haven't taken the class. It sounds good, almost too good, if you know what I mean. I do not get the sense at all that's it's a scam or anything, but it's just hard to believe that a 2 day class can teach a beginner most of what they need to know. I'm also leary of the "get rich by building a bunch of cabins" tone of the website, the tone is not professional in many regards. Skip's site is the only log building school site I could find that seems to diss the competition, and do so with gusto. I'm all for straight talk, but the website seems to often cross a line.

I've been researching different schools on the net. Take Pat Wolfe's www.logbuildingschool.net for instance. They offer a 1, 4 or 10 week course that cover all the facets of building a log cabin. Their 1 week course doesn't cost much more than Skip's 2 day class. I'm open minded, perhaps it can all be taught in 2 days. But my good sense suggests there's a lot more involved than can be covered in 2 days, especially for beginners like myself.

Other log building schools have similiar offerings in terms of time frames for classes. This causes great concern about Skip's approach. Why is his class so much shorter than the industry standard?

I know, I could just take Skip's class and ask for a refund if I wasn't satisfied. But the problem with that is that I'm inexperience and lacking in knowledge. I don't know enough to judge whether or not what Skip's class teaches is good teaching or not. The only way I could really find out if Skip's teachings are good would be to actually build a log home using his techniques. But that can't be done in a mere 3 months, thus the money back gurantee doesn't really offer much.

I'm not a troll, I promise! Just trying to sort through the various school options.

Also, why does Skip's school not allow the taking of photos during the class? If I'm spending $400 per day for a class in which the info is coming fast and furious, shouldn't I be able to take photos? It seems like such an innocent thing.

Other schools, like B. Allen Mackie, sell videos of their teachings. Being able to have a video seems like such a valuable learning tool. The air of secrecy surrounding loghomebuilders gives me pause.

Those are some of my concerns. Thanks for your feedback.

[salinamatt]

I completely understand your concerns about taking the class. My husband and I had all of the same thoughts and I researched many many classes. I also did some extensive research on kit homes because I wasn't confident enough to build my own (even though it is something I have always wanted to do).
The classes that are two weeks or so in length basically do a couple day introduction where they go through everything you need to know to build your own log cabin and then you spend the rest of the time actually building one. That sounded fun to me except that I was thinking that if I was going to spend two weeks building a log home, I wanted to be getting paid for it!!!
Skip's class is very intense and you learn alot in the two days. They basically go through building a home from beginning to end. When I took the class, I had to take notes of what they were saying but now they have a manual that they hand out with all of the diagrams and information. I still go back to my notes to remind myself of something or I post a question on this forum.
Building a log home is really not as difficult as everyone thinks. Especially considering that the logs make up just about the whole structure and those can be raised in a matter of days. Plus you can see all of the peoples sites who have taken the class and had success building their own homes with the knowledge they learned from it.
The class is very informative, but it also gives you the drive and the feeling that you really can build your own log home. More then anything, we gained confidence from learning the building technique and having such a large support group.
There is actually a kit home that went up down the road from where we're building. We were depressed because the thing went up in one day while we were still peeling our logs. But then we went down and inspected the structure and were reminded of why we didn't do a kit home. The place looks like a doll house. The logs are all small and perfectly round. Theres a lot of little pieces of log throughout that are just for looks when they really should be there for structural support. I couldn't figure out what was even holding the roof up. We see problems all the time with log homes out here. We looked at alot when we thought we would just buy them and the leakage problems, sagging roofs and floors just really turned me off. Then the kit homes will have all of these special bolts that you have to tighten all the time to keep your roof from sagging and your floors from caving in.
Anyways, I'll quit rambling on about it.
Just know that everyone here understands your reluctantness about the class. I think we all had them at some point or another.
Oh yeah, and the reason that you can't take pictures is because the class is held in a log home that was used on a tv show so theres some kind of exclusive rights thing going on with that.

[rreidnauer]

I would like to add that your $800 dollars buys more than the two days of classes. You also gain access to the members' section of the forum, which is brimming with invaluable information. Also loghome gurus, Ellsworth and Steve field questions cast by students, rather than just offering a forum for students to talk amongst themselves. They also continuously work on making things easier for students, such as the previously mentioned manual they have recently offered, which has no doubt required many hours (and hours and hours :lol: ) to develop.


Is it really as easy as this website suggests?

To quell any such misconceptions, don't mistake the term "easy" with a walk in the park. Though the concept of construction is easy, and the class is taught to construct in the most basic of methods, there still is a great deal of physical doing required. Not that anything is insurmountably difficult, rather, there is just a lot of physical things that need to be done. With that said, Yes, it really is that easy. All you really need is to have the ambition to do it, and the drive to follow through to the end. The biggest challenge seems to be fighting the torrent of people who seem to try to discourage you from doing so. Paraphrasing, I believe Skip had a line that basically said you have to go into it demanding you succeed, and not let others tell you that you can't.

I believe the brutal honesty is a "rub off" of when Skip was teaching the class, and I think it's a trait of theirs that you can come to appreciate. I strongly recommend taking the class and acquiring a new perspective that I, and many others, have gained by doing so.

[ChrisAndWendy]

I was on another forum where a very similar question was posted. I found that those who had been to the class, as myself, had nothing but good things to say about Skip & Company and those who had not taken the class said "it is a sham". It was funny that the biggest critics had never been to the class were builders of log homes. I took the class and found that it was fast and jam packed with info but the most important thing you will get out of the class is that "You Can Do It". With just a little thought and a whole lot of hard work you can do it. The system taught in class is a very simple sound construction technique. It in many ways is nothing more than the technique our forefathers used to build their log homes. Its a traditional style of building that can be customized to your taste. I was very happy that I made the trip to Seattle except for the hill (if you take the class you will know what I am talking about). Good Luck to you. Chris.

[dave]

Take the class, you don't like it, get your money back. Is that simple enough? I realize you're on Maui, but I flew over from Maui to do it; no big deal. And since you want to build on the mainland anyway, what the hey? In my opinion, even if I build another style of home, the class was well worth it. In my opinion, people who can't make up their minds to take a simple 2 day class, AND GET THEIR MONEY BACK IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT are perhaps not suited to build anything themselves.
carpe diem

[rreidnauer]

I was very happy that I made the trip to Seattle except for the hill (if you take the class you will know what I am talking about). Good Luck to you. Chris.

LOL, I liked the hill, but then, I was always the first to the top. Gets the blood pumping for the rest of the day! :P And, I did so the day after hiking to the top of middle Wallace Falls (6 miles round trip, 1500 ft elevation to climb in 2 1/4 hrs) Beautiful hike but I'm an East coast flat-lander, so my lower legs were sore for about a week. :lol:

[Rumble]

There is certainly no doubt that 22 hours of instruction (a 2-day workshop) will not compare to the 4+ week courses that are available. Also spending $2000 (course fee + filght + extras) may be a bit pricey but compared to building a house, the investment in a course of any kind should reward itself if, for the simple fact, that you make fewer mistakes.

I am looking at courses right now for next year. One consideration I have is that I cannot get 4 weeks time off to take a lengthy course somewhere so a 2-day intensive instruction period is probably best suited for me.

The way I see it, a 2-day course combined with some books and videos, hopefully, will get me on the right path.

[hawkiye]

Skips been teaching the class for 30 some years and the web is full of students who have successfully built log homes. I can't find a single student who took the class and regreted it or a single case where a student used Skips methods and it didn't work. The very few who bash it have no expereince with it and are usually kit builders.

The reason it can be taught in a weekend is the method is different then other log home building schools teach. It is a more sound building technique and more simple and renders a more stable structure.

I don't know about anyone else but I have a problem with any structure that needs to have gaps built above windows and doors and even screw jacks for lowering roofs to account for settling of logs. That is how others build and teach.

Skips method needs none of that and is proven. The flagship is Skips home itself where you will be taking the class. It is the most impressive log structure most will have the chance to ever enter. The proof is in the pudding. Take the class you will not regret it.

Blayne

[gregorama]

The reason it can be taught in a weekend is the method is different then other log home building schools teach. It is a more sound building technique and more simple and renders a more stable structure.

I don't know about anyone else but I have a problem with any structure that needs to have gaps built above windows and doors and even screw jacks for lowering roofs to account for settling of logs. That is how others build and teach.

Skips method needs none of that and is PROVEN. \Blayne

That's exactly what I wanted to say. I've lived through several Alaskan winters in 2 scrupulously constructed Swedish-cope homes, and although beautiful, the amount of work to construct them boggles me, after I learned what is required. I have studied at length those "conventional" methods, and they require a LOT of planning, and a LOT of math, and the possibility of wasting a whole log if you screw up a notch. I have quite a bit of remodeling and construction experience, and notching seems like an art I'd rather not learn. I prefer to lay logs and move in. They're honest, round, pieces of wood that hold no pretense of complication. Just weight and beauty; and that will make me feel safe in my hand-built home. Just take the class; you'll see what I mean. Your questions are very valid and show wisdom about planning your future; on the other hand, I also say Carpe Diem.... I did, and have not regretted it one bit.

Greg

No animals were harmed in the creation of this message. Humiliated, maybe...
American Humane Society

[flcowgirl]

You said it Dave!

[Basil]

I took skip's last class (I think) in dec 03 and I remember the first thing he said once everybody sat down and class started.

"When I get done teaching this class, you are going to wonder why you had to pay somebody to teach you these things. It's all logical, common sense stuff that you've always been told you can't do."

He was right. I'm getting ready to roof my skip-style log home, starting this week.

[jbhoward]

I'm getting ready to roof my skip-style log home, starting this week.

And you're going to share pictures, right?

Blessings,
Jim Bob

[AndrewHenry]

I've seen lots of questions by people who haven't taken the class which address a basic concern: Is this too good to be true? and Can I really build my own log home? I haven't taken the class yet either, but I have done a lot of research so I think I have a pretty good idea of what's going on here. So here's my stab at this topic.

The butt and pass style of log home seems simple:
1: put in a foundation
2: stack up a bunch of logs and stick them together with rebar, cut out rectangles for doors and windows (avoid rebar), screw steel bars up the sides of the rectangular openings for additional support
3: put on a roof, attach a floor, and chink between the logs
4: finish the house out as you would any other

The main differences between this style and other building styles (that I can see) are steps 2 and 3. And how you perform these steps seems to be clearly illustrated in the photo journals that LHBA members have posted. So while it looks like hard work and you can probably make money doing it for a living (as many have in every aspect of real estate), it's neither a get-rich-quick scheme nor an impossibility.

For a good website on how it's done, check out http://www.wolfenet.com/~kahle/log.html.

I hope this post hasn't come across as impatient or rude, but I've seen the same question over and over and I thought I'd add my two cents as a non-Log Home Builders Association member.

[Basil]

This one is more up to date-

http://home.mindspring.com/~kahle11/log.html

[AndrewHenry]

Thanks for posting that???I was wondering when they would add more pics. :P

[adubar]

AndrewHenry,

Something additional that you get from the class is the understanding around other log building methods--their strengths and weaknesses. You can put that same type of analysis to other building methods, like stick frame.



Rumble,

Many of the multi-week and multi-month log building and timber framing classes are structured in a way that you do repetitive work---which may or may not increase your ability to do it. Once you've peeled logs, you don't need further instruction on it---the important thing is to be given the correct information on how to go about doing it in the first place--many schools don't do that but instead have you peel logs in a less than desireable manner--over and over and over....

In reality, you probably are not going to be a better sriber at three months than you were at one day---it takes more time than that--experience!---so many schools actually can waste a student's learning time. I am oversimplifying, but I think you get my drift.

So, even with long term log building training programs you really need to do your research before taking them.

The LHBA class compresses the information and delivers it in a manner that the average person can understand a huge amount of information in a short time.

This is possible. And I've seen this at work more than once. I was given the opportunity to sit in on an elder hostle class taught by a music professor from Harvard/Julliard, that happen to have an undergraduate degree at the school to which I was seeking a music degree. Mind you all of the audience, save me were complete novices in the area of music. In two and one-half hours, this professor was able to bring the audience's understanding of music from a toddler's vantage point to the most advanced areas of musical anaylysis, music history and political philosophy. They essentially got a graduate level understanding of music form and history in those two hours!!!! (we students took years to get there).

The LHBA instructors have similar gifts.