Size of a log home built using this method

[Brendan]

I have not taken the class yet but hope to next year.

Could someone please give me the scoop on how big of a log home you can build using the butt and pass method? If I want to build a two story 2000sqft per story home, can I do that? Are there logs available that size (about 45feet long I would think)? And can you buy the logs easily if you do not have your own source?

[RockEngineer]

Yes.
Depends on your area.
Yes.

Skip Ellsworth's house where the class use to be held was 50'x50' with parts three stories high but I wouldn't recommend trying to go that big. Many people have been building 30'x30', 35'x35' and 40'x40'. Bigger than 40'x40' you end up with a more complicated design. You can't get your rafters or floor joists to the center so you have to provide additional supports and purlins.

[dgc]

Rock,

I posted a comment earlier (I thought), but it didn't show up. I'm posting again....

Have you had any experience with folks in or around MS using southern yellow pine finding logs at 45 feet? I'm looking at some various areas around where I'm planning to buy land for trees of that size, and most of the ones I see aren't quite that big. There is one area I know of with some MONSTER trees, and I've mentioned that in another thread. What I'm hoping is that 45-footers are fairly easy to come by, and that I'm just not seeing them from my windshield evaluations.

DGC

[bmurphy96]

I don't think Mister Rock gets out of Washington and Oregon very much..I could be mistaken but just my impression :)
I believe you will find what you are looking for if you just take some time. It's good that you have started looking even now before you have taken the class.
?Perhaps wwwlivin has some thoughts on this? He is building/has built in central MS if I recall correctly.
keith?
http://www.paragon-cs.com/shiloh

[dgc]

Thanks for that, Keith. I don't doubt that Rock Engineering has a limited geographical range. But he frequently assists LHBA members, as I understand it. I just wondered if he was aware of anyone whose designs have used logs that length and whether they had any trouble finding them.

I was out today with my son on an exploration/excursion. I am encouraged to see many trees that are the diameter I would like (20-30 inches). I just wonder now if they're quite tall enough to get 45 feet of usable (low-taper) log length out of them. I think a lot of them are, and I'll verify that with some cruising stick work down the road. I'm just thinking out loud about the availability of logs that type.

WWlivin definitely has some nice logs at his place. I've been watching his Photobucket with regularity. The ridgepole on his place is 56 feet in length. After cutting off the stump and the crown, that tree must have been TALL!

I expect I won't have any trouble finding logs in 45-foot lengths. Comparing the roadside trees to the utility poles along the highway (approx. 25 feet of length above ground), I've seen several stands of trees that come close to where I need them to be. I just like having peace of mind.

DGC

[bmurphy96]

Just to be clear...I was not saying that Mr. Rock doesn't help. He is a huge help quite frequently and one of the big reasons this forum is so successful. My doubt was that he had been to MS looking at trees :) I am stepping out on a very thin limb saying that but its just my conjecture. ?Anyways, I would think he would chime in if he does know anything. I think it's time for me to be quiet now on the subject of Mr. Rock and his travels. I am just digging a very deep hole now...
Be encouraged..you will have plenty of answers when you go to the class. I know it's frustrating. I certainly was frustrated before I went to the class last year. The good news is October will be here soon!
http://www.paragon-cs.com/shiloh

[dgc]

No worries, Keith. I'm not frustrated or impatient; nor did I think you were implying that Mr. Rock didn't offer assistance. I just figured if he helped folks design their houses, he might have heard them talk about how easy (or difficult) it was for them to find logs for that size.

No biggie!

I look forward to the class and to getting my hands dirty at your place afterward!

DGC

[RockEngineer]

Just to be clear...I was not saying that Mr. Rock doesn't help. He is a huge help quite frequently and one of the big reasons this forum is so successful. My doubt was that he had been to MS looking at trees :) I am stepping out on a very thin limb saying that but its just my conjecture. ?Anyways, I would think he would chime in if he does know anything. I think it's time for me to be quiet now on the subject of Mr. Rock and his travels. I am just digging a very deep hole now...
Be encouraged..you will have plenty of answers when you go to the class.

I haven't been to MS looking for trees and without going back through all the designs I've done I don't remember if anyone in MS had problems getting 45 ft Southern Yellow Pine. When I don't have much to add I just sit back and wait for those building in an area to answer. Thanks for all the compliments. My overall knowledge is pretty small compared to the collective knowledge in these forums.

[dgc]

Thanks for weighing in, Mr. Rock. I think I might have answered my own question today. I was driving through an area I hadn't been since I was a young'un, and I saw a stand of SYP (longleaf, I think) that was at LEAST twice as tall as the utility poles installed alongside them. The crowns were short, and the usable length of the tree had little taper until near the very top. I suspect that the trees were probably around 70 feet in height, and probably only 10 feet of that was unusable crown. I would estimate that there were 200-300 trees of comparable age and size in that stand.

I stopped. I drooled. I would have taken pictures, but I didn't have the camera. Next time I get by that part of the state, I'll make sure to take my camera with me and post a pic. The trees were impressive, particularly in those large numbers.

Thanks to all for the comments.

DGC

[Tennessee Outdoorsman]

My wife and I are looking at a 70X60 home in Morgan County TN. This is what she wants, I have talked her down to a 60X40 but thats as low as she will go. I am planning to have an upstairs area of at least one room for an office. The shell is pretty much rectangular but here is my question.

I want some of my inner walls to be log so should they but against the outer wall or should they be butt and pass just like the outer shell? I know the design will probably get complicated but that's how she wants it.

In the roof we want the ridgepole then we want at least two log beams coming down from the ridge pole to the upper level of the outer wall to be seen on the inside.

Am I looking at a nightmare with this size of a home?

[Timberwolf]

For your first house... yeah maybe.

I see you are not a member. 60x40 huh. You need to take your wife to the class. I suspect her perspective on that might change. 60x40 is a huge house... although on one level, it's not that big. I'm buiding that much square footage on a much smaller footprint. (30x40 with full basement).

When you get that big, everything get's bigger and harder. Huge logs are really hard to get (logs over 60 ft) not impossible, just hard, unless you have land with them. Lifiting them gets that much harder (picking up and moving a 60ft log, even with a telehandler, is no easy feat, and not just because of the weight).

You'll likely need purlins, and that adds another dimension also.
Costs get huge too, that much more concrete, rebar, roofing, flooring, etc etc.

Now, that's not to discourage you (or your wife) but definately consider taking the class, and see if you don't approach your dream a little differently.

[Timber]

home size. you ask a question that really is non answerable?for the non LHBA members. This would be covered in class. The?home in Washington was close to?7000 sq?ft a 50 x?50 3 story home.


??

[dgc]

I confess that I'm leaning toward a slightly larger home. I've got 40x40 on the brain, with a second story of about 25x40 (leaving some upper space open for the great room). I don't want a basement. So I might be limited a little with that configuration and may not feasibly have a small loft space, although I guess it's still possible.

My vision (which is very possibly going to change significantly after the class in a few weeks) is to have that as the main home, with two small "wings" coming off the house - one side building for a garage (and utility room) and one side building for a family room and media room. Both of those wings would be one-story, simple buildings with short halls/walkways between them and the great room of the main house.

I'd like to build all three at roughly the same time, but it might be too difficult a feat. So, if I can't do it all at once, I could concentrate first on the main house, and then build the first side building later, just sawing the doorway into the wall of the main house when I was ready to join them together. Then do the same on the other side of the house for the other side building...

It's a grandiose plan, and one I might never complete. But it's what I have in my head for a dream home.

DGC
[edited for typos]

[edkemper]

Your dreams might become nightmares after you take the class. It is so hard to explain to someone that hasn't taken the class yet what is in store for them. Glad you're here and will be taking the class soon. The member's only section is so helpful after you get your initial education through the class. On the cheap has no meaning until after your weekend class.

[dgc]

You may be right, Ed. I'm keeping a completely open mind. I've said in another thread that the only real detail that I'm firm on is the front of the house with a very large lodge-style overhang area. My wife has complete discretion (subject to LHBA guidance and common sense) on the internal floorplan. When I look inside my head (scary place), I see a separate living area for the kids to gather for movies, games (maybe a pool table or pinball machine). It just makes sense to me to put that in its own space. I would normally do that in a basement, but those don't really work well in south MS. So, the next best option is a side room off the main house. I figured for symmetry, I'd have an identical size building on the other side of the house for a garage/utility room/workshop. It just seems to work for me in my own mind.

But as you suggest, Ed, I might find my thoughts to be very different by the afternoon of Oct. 10. I'm willing to scrap/change almost all of it - well, except for the lodge-style front overhang and sitting area...

DGC

[Tennessee Outdoorsman]

Ok let me ask this for the sake of knowing a little more about what I am doing here before hand. For everyone looking a a large home, is it considered ok to have two logs butt against each other in the middle of a run? Say if you have an 60 foot run but only have 30ft logs. I am assuming its ok considering you are to tie them securely with rebar right? I would think that since they are staggered the one above would support the one below well enough.

[loghousenut]

We'll all say take the class. Logs have taper and you'll learn how to deal with that in class as well as the other main problems you're up against. On graph paper map out the wall you are talking about with the joints in the middle. As you draw the logs, extremely exaggerate the taper and work out how to make the top of the wall level after 8 or 10 courses. Then, using the same size drawn logs, map out the wall that will join it at the corner.

You have brought a problem to the table that you'd probably not consider for other reasons after class. Basically, if it is not easy to map out your house with exaggerated log, it will be really tough to make it work with real logs that are decidedly imperfect. The object is to make the job simple enough to be possible.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Arialphotos8-26-09016.jpg

[Timberwolf]

Ok let me ask this for the sake of knowing a little more about what I am doing here before hand. For everyone looking a a large home, is it considered ok to have two logs butt against each other in the middle of a run? Say if you have an 60 foot run but only have 30ft logs. I am assuming its ok considering you are to tie them securely with rebar right? I would think that since they are staggered the one above would support the one below well enough.

Ok, you DO NOT want to be doing this.

What you do NEED to do is take the class.

[Timber]

You could build 2 separte?boxes with a couple of walls connecting the 2. One member did this-not that long though-i don't think.


Splicing is something kit homes do and they do it cause its cheaper & saves them money and looks like hell in my opinion.


You could try and figure where your cut outs are(windows and doors)?and add logs in the cut out--also not recommended--because it can add to difficulty. If your ready to build then save your self some headaches and take the class--or don't and wish you had.


I took?the class-I already had my land-just not the funds to build.?I?could of waited to take the class--but i thought when i am ready to build the class wont be happening--so i got myself busy. I am good at putting things off and i made it my priority to not put the class off.


I am headed to my property next week and meeting my logger to check out my home on his log racks--meeting to get some bids on foundation too.


Bought land late 2006. Brought power 2007. Already had water piped to property 11.37 acres when i bought at owners cost to subdivision 250,000. Only 5 miles from town. Took class May/memorial 2008.? Bought all 3 sets of plans the bundle on sale 1/2 off December 2008


Just bought a reach lift 2009 June.


Timberwolf talks about the horror and pulling hair and pealing logs, but I guarantee he is loving it!


There are plenty who would love to be building right now and going through what he is horror or not!

[hemlock77]

There are Better ways to build long without splicing. You can connect two structures with a breezway or do a bump out half way down the wall. There will be opertunity at the end of the class to ask spaciffic questions. I am pretty sure Elsworth and Steve can explain these tecniques better then I can.
Stu
?<a href="http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/">http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/</a>

[RPM]

Hello everyone! We're in a tuff situation. We can't attend the next class and we just started harvesting timber on our ranch (douglas fir and cedar) for delivery to the mills. We want to be proactive and start setting some of the logs aside for our home. We have a lot to choose from. I know we're putting the cart before the horse, but the loggers are here, trees are being cut down and logs shipped to the mill. We'll be logging until the big rains hit (late October or November). We understand there is at least a 1 year drying time after the logs are peeled, right?, so we need to put logs aside now, but won't be taking a class until the next one comes available, which of course, we would have all the answers, so.....any pointers? advice? I know this is not a simple question, but we really don't want to wait until next summer to select logs......or should we?

[Timber]

first off winter cut is the best time to harvest- you are a little early?i think. there are lots you need to learn and do or your logs will go to waste. mill--no we don't recommend it-but yea you can do it if you like that look-but i would not think of it

[patrickandbianca]

long enough to build a home the size you want, elevate them off the ground, peel them and then take the class.

It sounds like you should have plenty of logs and it would be a shame to sell them to the mill and then have to buy logs when after the class.
What diameter are they? What length?

Patrick

[JD]

The logs don't have to dry before you use them with this method. In theory, you can cut, peel and stack in one day if you had a bunch of people and about a 36 hour day. Without getting too deep, you want them as straight as possible, with minimum taper (no more than 1 inch per 10ft is the goal) and long enough for the size box you want to build. The larger the diameter, the fewer logs you'll need to get the desired wall height.
Normally, we would all just say "take the class" because we don't want to put out any inaccurate information. However, it sounds like you're in a unique situation. Hope this helps.

JD

[RPM]

JD! Thanks for the info. Wow, we don't have to let them dry first?.........I'm anxious to take the class and find out this method! We plan on building the home with douglas fir. We have some very large cedar on the ranch as well and thought of using them for ridge posts or at the entry or wherever? Anyway, your info helps..Thank you very much!

[RPM]

Patrick! Thanks for your reply! We have diameters from 6" all the way to 30"+ with some lengths up to 100'+. You're right, we don't want to sell them to the mill and then have to buy them back, so we want to set aside what we need while we're logging. I don't know what a safe number of "extra" logs we should have beyond what we think we need. Is there a standard reccomendation?

[RPM]

Hi Timber!
We're not sending the logs to the mill for the home, we are selling the logs to the mill as part of our logging operation on the ranch. We don't like the "milled" look either, plus all the maintainence issues with milled logs. I've heard winter is the best time to cut your logs, but we're in the middle of a timber harvest right now, and since the loggers and equipment are all here, now seems the right time for us.

[patrickandbianca]

than you think you would need + some for margin of error. Since yours are already on your land and the only thing you lose is what the mill would have paid you I would save like 50% more than you think you need. You can mill what you dont use for walls into beams and other lumber.

I am very envious of you. Most people on here have to search and search for what you seem to have readily available.

Patrick

[Timber]

Howdy, can you tell us what the mills are paying? That was one of the seek to find out for members looking to by-pass?the mills buying direct from loggers-paying a little more than the mills./houselogs of course.


Like one posted above our method you can use green logs?but-if you can wait yes-then rack and turn them for 2 years is best 1 is OK-2 better. You might peel them first however i am buying 2 year old harvested lodgepole pines from a logger in WY.?I am pretty sure they have yet to be peeled. Their is a borate you can make the recipe might be on here-run a search on top right of this page or go to Bearfort lodge (google it)?and get it there. You need to treat your logs after peeled.


I don't think harvesting now will be that bad-just??might have sap and more moisture?in the tree is all.


I might break ground this fall or next spring.

[RPM]

Hi Timber!
We're selling our timber to the mills by the board foot, not by the log. Here in Oregon, they purchase the timber in increments of 1,000 board feet. Price right now: $370-385 per 1,000 board feet for 5"-14" and $400 per 1,000 board feet for 15"+. It's definately not a good time to sell timber to the mills, but we don't see the economy turning around for a long, long time, especially in the building industry (just our opinion) so.......we've decided to sell some of our timber and start planning/building our log home. My oldest is 12 and by the time we actually make it in the house (2-3 years) she could be 15. I wish I could give you a price per log, but I can't. I don't know what the mills around here are selling logs for. Most loggers work for the land owners, so I don't know of any that are selling logs independently.

[RPM]

Thanks Patrick...that sounds like good advice! Milling the left over logs into boards and beams is another great idea! Just hadn't thought that far into the process yet. Learning everyday!

[loghousenut]

Ray, We're in Grants Pass. Are you anywhere near the Mt. that you share a last name with?

[2 cents]

Hi Ray,

20% extra generally recommended for number of house logs, but in your situation you could probably afford to pad that a little more.

Curious to know where you are too! I'm in Oregon but building in Washington.

[Basil]

60X40 sounds possible, but i doubt you could get the logs to do it in this area. I got 82 yellow poplars adn had them left tree-length, and the useable portion averaged about 45 -50 feet. I is possible, sure, to find longer, they aren't all that common tho. I don't have experience with other species.

My wife was convinced that our 36X36 would be too small, so i built a "bump out" for the master suite, which added about 800 square feet total. That, plus the upstairs on the house, got us up to about 3000 square feet. It was a beast to build by myself, i gotta tell ya.

Now, my wife just laughs about how she thought this house was going to be too small....