Ridgepole extension?

[dgc]

OK, don't give me any construction details - I'm registered for class in Oct. in Vegas, and I can get the details there. I'm just wondering about something generally.

I have a general idea of the way I want the front of my home to look when I build it. The inspiration for the look is the New England floor plan made by Maple Island Log Homes and pictured at their website (go to the floorplans section, then look at the area greater than 4,000 sq. ft., then click on the pictures for the New England home). The picture I'm referring to is the one with the canoe tied up at the top of the entryway.

I don't know if I want the wings on the sides of the house. I just want the HUGE overhang in front for the lodge-style entry and sitting area outside. To keep with the proper scale (if I don't have the wings on the sides), it would have to be a little smaller than the one in the Maple Island home, but I still want that long overhang.

I may actually use the wings on the side after the class, if the class makes me think it works for me. I have anticipated one large room extended off the main house for the family play area (pool table, pinball machines, media room, etc.). That could be one of those wings. The wing on the other side could be a two-car garage and shop area. I could add those two structures AFTER the main house was built and for substantially less cost, since they would both require much less interior construction. If I did that, the overhang could be as big as the one in the Maple Island picture, since the scale would go back up again.

Here's my question.... If I want to do the long overhang, it starts bringing up issues with the ridgepole and cap logs. I want to build a 40x40, which means 42' logs (or slightly longer). I could get away with 36x36 or 38x38 if necessary, since I'm going up a second story (and maybe a loft!). Here's the problem - to have that LONG overhang, the top three poles (ridgpole and cap logs) would have to be REALLY long. For instance, with a 40' house, to get a 12' overhang for that front lodge-style entryway, I'm looking at 52' of ridgepole, NOT COUNTING THE OVERHANG ON THE BACK!!! For 8' on the back, we're talking about 60' pole. Now, that's a pretty long ridgepole, friends... So, is it possible to use a normal ridgepole and cap logs over the main house and have an extension of those supports on the front for the lodge-style front?

Again, I'm not asking for details about HOW to do it - I'll gladly ask about it in Vegas (read: please don't delete my post, moderators!). I'm just wondering if an extension is possible or if there are other ways to accomplish my idea.

Thanks in advance! You guys have been great already, and I really appreciate everyone's opinions/input!

DGC

[Shark]

Anything is possible :)
It's will come down to how easy or hard it would be to do, if it's worth it nor not, how much time & $$ it might be.

After taking the class, you may change your perspective of what you want to build :)

[Timberwolf]

I had no problem getting a company with a long load permit. Where I am, you can run 12' over the length of the back of the trailer (48' or bigger) plus 2 feet over in front. That gives you 62' right there, which was the length of most of my logs. If you can find a truck with a 52' deck, you're better still. Another option could be double RP's (but we'll save those details for when you hit the members section).

As Shark said, anything is possible, it's just how much time and money do you want to spend. Only you can answer that (I know I can't, I'm still building and still spending money).

[dgc]

Thanks for the comments. I'm glad to hear that there are possibilities that might make this idea a reality. Of course, I fully expect many of my ideas to change after the class, but I don't know if this one will. I've had my dream house pictured in my mind for many years, and no matter how the inside changes, the front has remained fairly consistent. Then, one day I stumbled on the Maple Island house photo and saw that someone had built almost exactly what I had pictured for so many years. So, my wife can tell me how she wants the floorplan to be (and I don't particularly care), and I'll hold tight to the lodge-style front entryway for evening sitting spells.

Thanks again!

DGC

[ragdump]

Ragdump
Here's what a 65 ft. ridge pole looks like,I cut myself and moved it with an axel strapped to it and thats a hitch on the end


http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/ragdump/cid_49BD32AAE8E011DDBF47DBCB72BCCC4.jpg

[loghousenut]

Not trying to get into a bigger ridgepole discussion here but we found our ridgepole standing dead by the freeway 7 miles from the building site. I cut it 53' long but, even with a lot of taper it was still 22" diameter at 70' and we coulda found a way to haul it. If you want a 2 piece ridgepole that is easy too. What's not easy is predicting what you'll want after taking the class. My longheld prejudices and ideas about what MY log house would be like all changed somewhere in the middle of class.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/P1000711.jpg

[ragdump]

Ragdump

Now I have ridge pole envy

[dgc]

Ragdump

Now I have ridge pole envy


LOL!

That is an awesome pair of ridgepoles. I'm intrigued by the two-piece ridgepole concept, and I look forward to learning about that in class. That kind of idea confirms in my mind that there are ways to accomplish the LONG ridgepole solution without having to find an 85-foot tree. Most of the pine trees here in MS for my use will be between 35 and 50 feet of useful length. I don't see many trees with enough height to give me a 65-foot or more ridgepole after trimming the crown and adjusting for taper.

Loghousenut - I don't have many preconceptions or prejudices about the house itself (interior, shape, one- vs. two-story, etc.), but rather about the front exterior. I am more interested in the space outside (transition from indoors to outdoors) and what I can do with that. I will be using the space for LOTS of entertaining and for many long hours of enjoying the view of my property and its critter residents (wherever I ultimately buy/build). I don't really care about anything else, and I welcome all fresh notions from the class. I just need my big front space with the large overhang! Other than that, I don't have any real "must haves" on my list.

DGC

[2 cents]

you are in the right place! LHBA loves long overhangs.

[dgc]

I love the process of learning about log homes...

I have been fretting over the length of the overhang on the front and the problem of finding poles long enough to run the full length of the house. I went back to look carefully at the magazine and online pictures of the original Maple Island house that serves as my inspiration, and I noticed something. In the front view of the house, the picture showing the two support poles extending out for the lodge-style front roof, one of those poles is resting on the gable-end log that is partially cut out for the top of the round center window. In another photograph of the interior of the home, which depicts the interior great room and shows that round window, if you follow that log - the one that is cut out for the top of the round window - all the way to the outer edge to see the support pole resting on that log, you can see that the roof support pole that rests on that log is ONLY resting on that log - that is, it does NOT extend on through the room and across the entire house. So, the only full-house-length poles appear to be the ridgelog and the caplogs - the other overhang support logs are partial logs that rest on the gable-end logs (the partial logs, not the full-length wall logs).

This was a HUGE relief to me to find a solution to this issue. The short logs stick out to help support the overhang roof, while the big truss and posts out front handle the weight of the overhang roof. This makes it possible to push the overhang way out away from the main front wall of the house without having to use multiple LONG logs. Now, if only I can find a way to extend the ridgepole and cap logs the same way, I could take the pressure off of trying to find such long logs for that overhang.

DGC

[dgc]

Another thing I have been fretting over is the size of the logs to use in my house. Here in MS, the southern yellow pine grows FAST in some species, and the rings per inch might not be ideal. I've been thinking about that issue, as well as my concept of scale and large logs.

A couple of weeks ago, I drove to an area where the pine trees were MASSIVE in diameter - probably some 4 or 5 feet in diameter. I still see these in isolated locations around the state (and in small numbers or single trees), but most of this kind of old growth has been cut down over the years. In the area I was in recently, those trees were quite common.

So, I started looking again at the houses in the student pictures gallery to see how the logs sized up there in terms of scale and diameter. Using the standard size door as a reference (6 feet, 8 inches), and counting the number of logs in the height of the front doors of many of the homes in the gallery, it seems that LHBA people are using 10- or 12-inch logs fairly regularly for wall logs (7 log heights per door is VERY common). Compare that to Rckclmbr's front door photo which shows 5 log heights for the door (appprox. 14-15 inch logs?). WWLivin's front door cutout shows roughly the same size logs (5 logs high for the front door).

So I've been thinking about the bigger logs and issues involved in using those. Would they be harder to use for the pinning (i.e., would they roll out more and bend the rebar)? Would it make more sense to use standard size (12-inch) logs because they are more common and easier to procure? Would larger logs (30-40 inchers) look "silly-big" in scale when stacked up?

The scale question is the one that seems to bother me most. Enter Punch! Home Design and some experimentation. I had laid out many electronic 15-foot, 12-inch diameter logs for my first effort at using Punch! to construct a butt-pass guesthouse. I wanted to see what the overall appearance of the building was in the software stage. While some of the logs were lying on the ground, I changed a few of them to 30-inch logs and left them lying next to the 12-inch logs - the difference was dramatic. The visual effect isn't just a matter of being 2.5 times bigger than the smaller logs. It's considerably different in appearance and scale. So, now I'm wondering if that would translate into a better visual appearance on 40-foot walls with larger logs, as opposed to using 12-inch logs.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience on this? Anyone know of an LHBA home with pictures that uses those larger sized logs? Hopefully someone has some pictures for comparison. I'd like to see what 40-foot walls look like side by side, one with 12-inch logs and one with 30-inch logs. I just don't know if anyone (other than Skip!) has used large logs like that.

DGC

[bmurphy96]

??I think you will find most people use logs in the range of 12" - 16" diameter. I wouldn't go much bigger than that myself...maybe 18" or even 20" but no bigger. They just get too difficult to work with and IN MY OPINION it doesn't look right unless its a really big house (others feel differently which is cool too). If I were building a really huge lodge I might to a great room area in big 2 ft diameter logs but I would still go with smaller 18 - 20" logs on the rest of the house. And if you the logs are bigger they do require more work to get in place and rebarred in..but there are few logs so it would probably be faster overall.
?Conversely I would never build with logs smaller than 12 inches. To me they look like toys. But hey, if it's what you have and you don't have other resources it can be done.?
?We are building our guest house out of 12 - 14" loblolly with a 15" ridgepole/caplogs.
?keith?
land bought clearing begun well dug

[dgc]

Thanks for that comment, Keith. Loblolly is so abundant here in MS, that I'm glad to hear others feeling comfortable with average diameter trees of that species. The BIG trees I saw really opened my eyes. I had been looking casually at trees along Highway 49 here in MS during my commutes and noting things about the roadside trees - "That won't work - too thin. That might work, but I don't know if it's long enough to be a ridgepole.", etc. Then, when I went on that recent drive and saw the monster trees, it reminded me of just how big some of the older growth pines got down here. It's been many years since I saw that number of trees in that size, and it made me start looking at the roadside trees a little differently.

I agree with you that the larger logs will make a substantially different look in the house. I plan to make mine 40x40 interior, so I'll be looking for 45-foot logs for the four walls. At that size, and planning to go up two stories (maybe a little more for a loft), the larger diameter trees start making more sense. But I still think there's a limit. Even at two- to three-stories tall, if I use 42-inch trees, it's going to look strange, I think. Plus, the number of those trees available will be smaller, and the costs of moving them to the site will go up quickly. Add to that the headache of trying to lift those monsters up in the air and drill rebar holes that deep, and it starts sounding more like an industrial construction site instead of a residential BNP home.

I like the idea of bigger logs to make the visual impact. But I think "bigger" for my house will probably have a limit of 24-inch logs. Any more than that, and I think we start running into those problems we've already mentioned.

DGC

[bmurphy96]

yeah, we live in pensacola. I have seen the trees over there. I would love to be getting some but I can get some cheaper ones here. ?
?Any size logs are going to be hard to lift without the proper equipment. Your best bet in my humble opinion is to get ahold of a telescoping forklift. You can rent one for 2 - 3k for a month and those monsters can pick up a log and place it 30' up in the air like it's nothing. And some of them will slide sideways (I think they call it "crabbing") so when you miss by 6 inches you just bump over. (if you don't know what I am talking about..trust me..when you start laying logs you will find out REALLY quick!!). Beats block and tackle or pulles or winches or whatever any day of the week.?
?When I grow up I want to buy one. But for this time around it looks like I rent.?
?Save me some trees over there ok? I have to build the main house after the guest house and I am not going to have the right ones from my current source it looks like.?
keith?
land bought clearing begun well dug

[loghousenut]

No question about it, big logs weigh more and are tougher to move. They are harder to get next to the foundation and they take more work to hoist. They are also harder to roll with a cant hook for peeling or lining up on the wall before you pin em.

And they are so COOOOOOOOLLLL. I was married on the porch of a B&P log structure that I built out of logs that were small enough that I hoisted each on into place by myself. I wish I'da used 12"ers on that one. Don't be put off by the thought of 36" logs. You'll have to find a way to push them around and make them do what you want them to and you'll have to solve other problems like window bucks and door bucks. It'll all turn out fine if it doesn't kill you and the wow factor will be just fine. You'll beef up the foundation and use larger rebar and, by the way did anybody mention.... big chainsaws are really cool too.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/2009021_spruce_tree_blog_02.jpg

[edkemper]

The need for a saw that size is even cooler.

[Timber]

Thought that was Rod there for a second

[Timberwolf]

I'm in the process of building a 30x40 (OC measure) and I definately wouldn't wan't logs any smaller than what I've got. Most of my tops are 14"-16" or bigger. 5 rows has me at the height of my second floor girders (100"). I have one smaller log on the wall (12" top) that was a partial mistake on my part, but also necessary to even out the walls (got me to within 1/4" on 3 of 4 corners) and it looks small against the rest of then. I've often lamented that I wish they were all the size of my RP (36" butt and 22" at 45') as it would make for way less stacking, pinning and chinking and look better too. I can't imagine a house looking weird with bigger logs, especially at that size.

That said, I think it's probably more important to have logs fairly uniform in size.

If I build another for resale, I would definately use logs as big, preferably bigger, like my RP. Getting the logs isn't a problem around here... paying the $$$ is.

As for moving these big monsters (I bought all my logs at 60' and cut them where I needed) I agree that heavy equipment helps emmensly, but I dont' agree that it's as simple some say. Picking up logs and balancing them takes some practice. You can't safely move the telehandler with a log at full extension (you will likely need the outriggers down to get up that high with a big log), especially if you are working on rough terrain, nor might you be able to lift your RP or even your last logs to the top, depending on your build site. And sometimes, it still takes forever to set a log in the right place) That said, I wouldn't want to build without one (or an excavator, which I used for the first 3 rows).

You definately need a big a$$ saw for big a$$ logs (especially if you cut every log like I am). I use a Stihl 660 Magnum with a 24" bar, just because I had one (for my mill). I wouldn't go lower than a Stihl 361 personnally.

[bmurphy96]

See dgc..i told you others would rather use bigger logs....you will find that there are always multiple ways to doing things, multiple opinions and nothing wrong with any of them .. well most of the time... :)?
?In FL we don't have mountains, valleys or even hills for the most part so I won't have as much trouble with the tele fork because of terrain. A bulldozer just pushed over the trees to clear the pad for the the guest house and he leveled things out at the same time. But a telescoping forklift isn't a panacea. Just the easiest way to do it in my opinion.
?And you should always be safe. Don't forget that even a small log weighs enough to flatten you into a little greasy spot.

[dgc]

I knew the Big Log Lovers Assoc. would make its appearance!

I think I'll find a compromise between the 10-12 inch logs which are so common and the monsters I've seen around here. anything from 18-24 inches would give me that "big log" look and still be manageable on the worksite. Plus, there are MANY more trees that size around MS than the bigger ones.

Thanks to everyone for the comments! And, by the way, that saw is awesome!

DGC

P.S.: Oct. 10 is getting closer and closer! I'm looking forward to hearing the meat and 'taters of the building philosophy and joining you nice folks in the members' area!

[bmurphy96]

After you head out for the class in October you can swing over my way if you would like for a day or two. I will hopefully be past the walls and working on the floors and roof at that point, but any help would be appreciated and its a great way to learn.



I know this from experience, I had about 400 questions answered when I helped Jay with some of his log courses. And bless his heart, he was patient with me beyond belief.















http://www.paragon-cs.com/shiloh

[dgc]

Dear moderators,

Please note that Keith invited me to visit his construction site, but that I did not solicit the invitiation!

Now that that's out of the way (I had a polite reminder from the LHBA staff a while back that I can't ask to visit a LHBA home until after becoming a member)... Without trying to violate the terms of the forum, after the class and after I'm a card-carrying (literally) member of LHBA, I'd love to come over and help out for a weekend. I'll follow up with you once I'm admitted to the members' area and we'll coordinate schedules.

Thanks, Keith!

DGC

[bmurphy96]

And that would be why I said "after the class". :)??



http://www.paragon-cs.com/shiloh

[dgc]

Hehehe...

No doubt! I look forward to meeting up with you after October 10-11. I definitely would like to offer up some free labor in exchange for experience and tips.

DGC