Oak logs

[crusherman]

I have chosen a building site on our farm in southern WV to build a log home. I would like to attend the seminar in Las Vegas and I have a few questions. I have 160 acres of timber to choose from in selecting my logs but do not have much white pine. I have lots of white oak as well as other hardwoods. Does anyone have any experience with using oak logs on butt and pass. I am looking to build between 2800 and 3500 sq. ft.. Also, I want to cut the logs in either a 8X8 square or possibly a 12X8. Air drying versus kiln drying. Let me know what you think. All input will be greatly appreciated.
David

[edkemper]

Take the class and have all your questions answered. The new questions you'll have will be covered in the Member's Only section.

[exsailor]

I think you?re missing the point. I haven?t taken the class, but I will. Until then I read the posts and study what information is available to me. I wondered why milled logs were so bad. After all uniform size would make building a cabin much easier. That is until I found the answer in a post. What you are talking about doing is essentially stacked beam construction, using the butt and pass system. I considered doing the same thing with 4x4?s a few years ago. Milled logs and sawn beams aren?t logs anymore, and subject to more advanced rates of decomposition. There is a startling simple example that made me understand this concept. Ever stepped on a perfectly good looking log lying on the ground in the woods, and ended up stepping through it? Why would a log that looks strong be that rotten on the inside? The answer is the Cambium layer of the wood acts as a protective shell. The rot came from the inside out through the ends of the log open to the environment. By milling off the Cambium layer of the wood making your perfectly round stick, you have defeated the log?s inherent strength. The same is true for sawing the log into beams. The only way to prevent the accelerated decomposition of the wood is through more frequent applications of paint or other preservative. I think another issue would be getting a uniform chink seal between the flats of the beam joints. Part of the butt and pass system is extra overhang to keep water off of the logs further enhancing the logs natural defense, which could be used in stacked beam construction. I don?t see any reason why a house built using stacked beam construction wouldn?t last well past your life span, if you spent the extra time and money applying a preservative. That is why people living in cut lumber house paint their house every so often. Of course I may have my facts wrong having gleaned the information from reading only, and not taking the class.

[luncheatr]

well, if stacked beam construction, it seems like there would be no gap between the beams. and is so, your creating a natural draw between the joints of the beams through capillary action. its not the getting water in thats the problem any more than once the water gets in between the joint, its tough to get out. I think i'm understanding right what your talking about, also the shape of the logs helps in bringing water away from seam between the logs, by rolling water away with the natural curve of the log as gravity brings the water down. If i understand correct, thats the best way i could describe what the class offered as far as an explanation to why this is ultimately a better more, and efficient approach, and also you dont have to spend that time milling, or finding someone else to mill the logs.

[Yuhjn]

Before you take the class you really need to try to drop all your preconceived beliefs about home construction and log home construction.

Milling your logs does NOT make building the home easier. Instead it makes it very vulnerable to water damage.

You also mention air drying vs kiln drying. Most LHBA homes are build with green logs, no drying required. Many members have had logs go up onto their walls the very same week they were cut down.

I dont know much about building LHBA style with oak but I would think you would need to put them up green. Driving rebar into seasoned oak is going to be like driving rebar into granite.

[logguy]

Wow--that answers many of my questions.

Someone tell me whether this is correct:

I can use oak with the butt and pass method as long as they are straight, and they don't have to be kiln or air dried--I can cut them down, debark them, and stack them as fast as I can. Period.

Is this right?

[edkemper]

Yes. You are going to have so much fun at the class. Bring eyedrops. Smile My property is in South Central Oregon and I will build with Lodge Pole Pine. Long and straight with little taper.

[Yuhjn]

Wow--that answers many of my questions.

Someone tell me whether this is correct:

I can use oak with the butt and pass method as long as they are straight, and they don't have to be kiln or air dried--I can cut them down, debark them, and stack them as fast as I can. Period.

Is this right?


Yes you can cut them, peel them, and stack them the same day, if that was possible from a labor point of view.

This is a critical part of the LHBA methods. But if you do that, you MUST take the class and learn the entire LHBA process. Trying to mix other methods with the "use them green" can cause catastropic problems.

You must use butt and pass, tight pinned method or you must season your logs. If you try to notch or do any kind of chinkless or scribe type methods with green logs you'll have major problems.

[JeffandSara]

About the original question re: oak logs...

Yes, there are members on this site who have built with hardwood logs (I don't recall oak specifically, but I'm pretty sure one of our international members used eucalyptus or something equally dense). I don't know about comparative strength or rot-resistance (both of which can be compensated for to some extent with up-sizing log diameter and careful design to limit soil/water exposure of the logs respectively), but probably the biggest initial possible drawback of hardwood is that it's hard.

There's lots of demanding physical work involved in the process of building a log home, and I think that a really dense, hard wood like oak (if white oak is anything like the oak we have in our area) just makes those parts of the process that much more demanding. Some members have overcome that, and it was worth it to be able to use the logs available to them. It's definitely one more thing to consider, however.

Best-- Sara : )

[chadfortman]

Things you will find hard with oaks there straight for about 20 some feet then after that they go all over the place.
Allot my oaks bow and are not straight and pretty looking.
There supper heavy and dont peal easy.
I think if i use them i gone have use a draw knife becuse there no way that barks gone come lose with some spud.
I might have do combo of both.
And you will have drill more in them becuse i am not try pound rebar in those things. Like the Class will say use what you got. Well i got mostly large oak so thats what i will use.
Roy in south afrcia used the hard wood did a great job his art form to make one the coolest looking log homes.
Not all of us have nice pretty trees like out west.
I dont think the settlers were picky on what they used.
My red and black oak smell very bad like some one at bar drank to much and lost there insides.
Come on over to Chad yack house. i will stain and seal mine inside.
When my oaks fall nebors in the area hear them.
Good luck

[ivanshayka]

I am originaly from Ukraine, but currently live in northern Michigan. Where I come from they use all kinds of wood to build thir houses. They are not as pretty as what you see from this association, but they do with what they can. So, my recomendation is same as Chad's: if you can lift them and drive rebar through, and if they are long and strait enough. I would say go ahead.

[chadfortman]

I been doing allot studing and going to old log home all kinds around the Va area and Ohio.
Do you got any family members ore friends that can take pictures of them over there.
It be very interesting to see them and what they look like over there.
Hey my brothers in Erie Michigan i cant stand it there its to cold for me i like the south it warmer here.
It would be interesting see what kinds log homes they built over there to live in ore use.
Seya

[mountains for me]

I am thinking about building 2 story cabin on top of concrete walkout basement. I have access to longer straighter cedar, 6 to 10 ft lengths, 4 to 8" in diameter, the live oak is not that straight or long, so I think that is out. Can you lap cedar or logs to make a longer wall, like you would brick, or are there too many complications. There is not a lot of long straight bigger diameter wood in South Texas. Any ideas on how to get wood that would work without paying a fortune in shipping? Thanks. Newbie

[StressMan79]

I have seen walls built with short logs, either between uprights, every 8-20 feet, or milled to be a constant thickness. The second option I would steer clear of for reasons of moisture, and that you need a metric sh!t ton of them to make a wall, as you end up milling all your logs to ~6 or maybe 8 inches thick. You make a wall higher much faster with a full 14" log.

The bottom line is, do your research. How did the settlers build? Maybe (heresy here) a strawbale home with log accents would be better for your situation. If you take the class, you can ask the instructors what to do to get your logs cheapest you can. They are knowledgeable on more than just the BnP method, although that is pushed heavily (for good reason).

Anyway there are options to your dilemma, keep looking and you will find one that works for you.

-Peter

[Timber]

It can be easy and difficult. I thought I found my logs but after looking at them I was not as pleased as?I thought I was going to?be.



Do not buy logs sight unseen--rules from?Skip.



The logs I went to look at were in a huge pile-over 12 feet high-lots of checks and some were not real straight and some were not as long as i need etc. These trees were standing dead beetle kill. I was told by more than 1 source that this was all that I would be able to buy(on my trip to my land last couple of?weeks ago)



Later I was ?talking to a log home builder near my land. He was very informative and told me some stuff about logs I never heard before. So much so I will start a thread on it.(later)



He was very knowledgeable-he did not put my method down and took time to show me spiral grain etc.



?This is what he told me about what he pays for green trees un harvested-he makes sure the trees are not left spiral only-and said its hereditary-or grows in bunches-one tree has it in a stand/chances are the whole lot of them does.



He said he is looking for the same as me, 40 foot logs with 12" tops. He told me -yes winter harvest is best but they just cant get to them when it snows-so fall harvest. Then he said he pays $5000 a truck load-delivered. If they got logs they want to sell shipping them is there problem he said. He also told me I would have a hard time finding 42' logs with min. 12" tops. I told him about the guy wanting to charge me $90 per hour to sort the stack so I could pick my logs and then $75 and hour travel to deliver. $2.50 a foot and my logger contact said he used to get $4.50 a foot when things were going strong. So the logger near my land said he could get me green trees-not beetle or fire kill for $5000 a truck load.



I just wonder how much heavier they will be etc. He also told me they pay peelers $2 dollars a foot to peel.



Try posting on craigslist--ask lots of questions-say you need houselogs in wanted section-its free-post your??price you are willing to pay and size you want.

[mountains for me]

I am also looking for logs for a cabin in the Ft. Garland, Colorado area. Has anyone built in that area, or are in the process of building, and where would be a good source of 12" logs? I keep reading about all of the millions of acres of dead pine in Colorado, how that many people are cutting them down, I know Skip's course is about using green trees, but what are the pros and cons of using these trees killed by pine beetles, if you can eradicate the beetles by smothering them or baking them with a thick mill plastic sheathing and the sun?

[Timber]

there is a couple members or 3 or 5 or 10--one for sure dvb search him on top right page. i believe he is using bettle kill also-not sure if he is near you-he is a helpful member like most are

[mountains for me]

Looks like someone else is burning the midnight oil.

[Timber]

<a href="/node/3177">http://loghomebuilders.org/node/3177</a>




Looks like someone else is burning the midnight oil.


so thats why i am so tired in the morning-

[patrickandbianca]

From the post about above, is this the logger in Dubois, Wy? I was really hoping this guy was going to work out so I could potentially buy from him also.

There are a lot of places with standing dead, beetle kill for sale around Missoula and north of that. I dont have any idea the quality or size, but it seems like most have logs with 10 inch tops.

Patrick

[Timber]

Yes this was about him-bettle kill harvested standing dead. He was about to go get some new stock-and did comment that the pile of logs had been picked through several times--cant reserver etc./first come first severed.


The logs i was looking at were checked pretty good-guess there dry alright-that is where i saw some spiral checks and he told me if it wraps around a log its no good but if there straight checks OK.


When i mentioned this to my maybe new supplier who builds log homes he showed me about left and right spiral grain and mentioned a good book on logs.


A tree when it starts out growing starts left--if it continues left its weak and no good-hopefully the tree will go straight or to the right. He showed me how to check this with a pencil.? My only concern with green logs is they will be very heavy and the shrinkage later.




When i mention left or right? or straight i am talking grain in wood-not tree sraight right left--just to clarify.



It makes sence if a grain only goes one direction its weak.



This guy knows his logs and takes it serious when commissioned to build. He will help me set my ridge pole if I need it. I told him about Log Home Builders Association?and Bearfort Lodge. I told him to google it. The log entrance gate to his yard was awesome looking. There are now 3? log home builders just on the road the leads to my property less than 2 miles away.



?I had to ask the log home builder if we got termites in the area. He said no but for monies sake?people say yes. He did say we got carperter ants-but keep the logs dry?because they attack wet wood.

[chadfortman]

I had to ask the log home builder if we got termites in the area. He said no but for monies sake people say yes. He did say we got carperter ants-but keep the logs dry because they attack wet wood.

I been out here Va for over 4 years they like dry pine wood also it easy chew threw and they make there little caves to have eggs layes in them. I had a pine tree down for more then a few years on my property it was full of carpenter ants.
They might like the green pine more but they like any pine it easy chew threw.
I never seen a bug destroy wood as fast the big black ants with in a week of large pine i had down.
I think they might like the green pine more also becuse its of full sap they love smell pine scent cleaner so do a expertment with it and find out.
seya

[Timber]

I?saw a map somewhere that showed termites make a detour around parts?of Wyoming. I am in that part.


As far as carpenter ants go?wont the borax after peeling mixed with some good old anti-freeze work??

[dvb]

We used beetle killed pine for our cabin. We will also use beetle killed pine tongue and groove for the ceiling, we like the blue stain. No problems with using it as long as you get the trees down, peeled & treated in a reasonable time. (less than 3 years) We don't have the problem with bugs as most people do due to the long winters and dry climate.
The beetles that kill the tree, leave after the tree dies.

[Timber]

found some :)


well he is to call me tonight or tomorrow


this was strange how i found these


strange story


I bought something off craigslist in another state.


Not log related-mentioned-(for some strange reason) i was going to build a log home.


I hit the main vein--you need to talk to my neighbor he supplies house logs in several states. bingo

[NM bound]

We have yet to find what we want in NM......so looking at other possibilities..
thanks.

[Timber]

not sure i want to disclose-i just got off the phone with him -- most everything he gets he sells one buyer/


bummer-but he said i could get a truckload of 10&quot; tops 45' long delivered for around $7,000


are you ready to buy now? my email <a href="mailto:going2chim@aol.com">going2chim@aol.com</a>


logs are in Colorado