Tips on building with cedar please.

[eddienpk]

I Will be building our home this year, and I have access to all the logs I need, and have a choice of straight pine trees, or red cedar. I was thinking of buiding a verticle hme ,but have decided to go with piece en piece. I know the cedar is more resistant to insects, but the pines have sooooo much less taper.
Tips please !

[StressMan79]

I wouldn't worry about taper on your short sections. I might be tempted to go with a hybrid: pine for the uprights, and cedar for the horizongal logs. This way the logs most prone to rot would be cedar, and the longest logs (I'm assuming ~12') would have the least taper. Plus as they weather differently I'll bet the contrast would look pretty cool.

just an idea.

[eddienpk]

As I mentioned before I have a sawmill and will saw flat the two sides that stack, and two sides on the verticles will be sawn flat, so the log wall sections will be accurate to accomidate top plate. The taper on the short logs will be no issue. I can saw my logs to be flat and seal good in any case.

[2 cents]

Another good reason to take Peter's suggestion, is that cedar is not the best for structural columns-- fir is typically better for that, and stronger than cedar.
so I'd agree with using cedar for walls but not for posts.

[StressMan79]

be careful. Cutting into a log that will be in the elements for the next 200 years is not generally a great idea. The one place I saw that did this was for some good reasons, and he could get away with it, since he is in a semiarid climate. I would NEVER do that in the PNW or SE USA. Anyway, you have likely heard the rants that you should take the class. This is a good idea even if you don't plan on doing exactly what is recommended (they offer no Edicts, just advice). Anyway, if you spend $800 on the class, you will save > 8000 on the building. I know, I already have (and I am not doing what is recommended with regards to the foundation or roof, but because I know the principles of the structure, I am confident that these mods will work in my case.

-Peter

[eddienpk]

Am I understanding that you suggest that pine is a better building log than cedar, as the two species is what I have to work with. I am a rustic furniture builder by trade and I would never concider using pine for my outdoor furniture as opposed to cedar, because of the rot and insect resistance of cedar as opposed to pine. Termites attact the pine sawdust and don't touch the cedar sawdust from my piles of waste before burning them. I would love to use the pine for the roundness, but think I'll sacrifice that for the rot resistance from cedar. Cedar will just outlast the pine and shrink less as well. Research has proven this. ( www.txcabin.com)

[mlr1968]

Attended Class March 25th/26th of 2006.
If you are gonna be dumb, you better be TOUGH!
Yes, cedar is extremly rot resistant, but in strength test pine is much stronger then cedar(species of pine will vary in this I am sure). I wish I had a link to site where different species of wood is tested in wieght bearing test. If building a log house with pine proper measures must be taken for it to be a long lasting home, elaveted off the ground at least 18" and good overhangs on both gable and eaves. This will protect the logs from the elements and is pleasing to the eye IMHO. Also, using a peserative like borats, which are natural and safe for humans but not pests like termites is another solution. There is tradeoffs in different species of logs so this must be weighed in all your overall desgin. Personaly I like both pine and cedar ( Doug Fir is out of the question in West Tn!) I have some cedar on my property but not enough to build a structure with, but to use as accents like post for proches and such. Just my 2 cents! ( sorry 2 cents lol).

[eddienpk]

Don't get me wrong, I love the look of a pine log home, and have access to all the pine needed to build with, but I am not getting younger and don't want to spend my remaining days fixing or replacing logs. I love the straightness of pine, and it's smoothness as well, but I know that it will probably require more maintenance. Cedar has such beauty, and I don't think it will require as much maintenance in years to come. I am planning 6ft overhang on the gable ends and 4 ft on the sides with proper bracing of course, and I have decided on building verticle for strength with cedar. I can use larger diameter logs in 8ft lengths standing up with 4 x 8 top plates.

[GENE13]

I also would recommend using the pine, two reasons why:

1. You may not be able to handle the smell that the cedar will give off.

2. The pine as a rule is stronger than cedar. Rot should not even come into play if your logs are treated, the structure is built with the proper over hangs, and the home is setting on the correct foundation up off the ground, as described in CLASS.

hint: TAKE THE CLASS !!!!! ............................ :-)

[eddienpk]

Is it offered in Texas?

[Timber]

Is texas near Seattle?

[llgabie]

to mlr1968

Check out this link for strength of wood by species. It even tells you the relative strengths of green vs. dry (i.e., 12% moisture). You probably need only page 4-12, but there is lots of other information there.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf

[eddienpk]

Thanks for that Larry. It helped me a lot. I would love to take the class , but Seatle is not in my budget, as I am a not able to afford the trip, but I will continue to ask questions, and look at pics here. I would love to take the class, but it is what it is. This is one of the major reasons I am going to build our home from logs and be mortgage free. We currently live in a 6 bedroom log sided home that we enjoy, but don't enjoy the mortgage. Joy does come in the morning, and the sun is on the rise. We will prevail. I know there are not many post here on verticle log constructio, but I do learn a lot anyways. Verticle construction is only a really beefed up stick build construction that is also Very Strong as well.

[edkemper]

eddienpk,

You are now, where many of us have been in the recent past. If Seattle can't be part of your budget, your home build will be substantially more cost and less a thing to last for generations.

You will save by far more than it will cost to go to the class. The most valuable thing that comes with the class is membership and the member's only section. That is where the details are contained and the real help starts.

Figure out a way and bring your wife. If it's important enough, you'll figure out a way.

[rocklock]

If you have free pine and cedar I would think about a timber framed home with pine timbers and cedar or pine panels in the timber frame... I would not use cedar for anything structural if I had good pine.
check out
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/woodworking/4213580.html
good luck

[Curt Hicks]

this is the way they still build houses in japan...even though ceder is abandent where i live all the houses are made from pine for stucture!!! and all is joint fitted stucture for strenght to with stand the frequent eathquakes...

[Basil]

You are too hung up on rot resistance. It is a misconception that all log homes rot. All improperly built log homes will rot. A properly built log home will stand as long as the roof does. As far as insect resistance goes, cedar has advantages but, having used cedar for all the porch posts on my wrap-around porch, I've cut a lot of cedar too. I've seen several that had colonies of carpenter ants in them. I've seen carpenter bees colonize them as well. And I concur with the the others who posted about spending the money to take the class. If you can't afford to take the class you won't be able to afford the expense of building a home. Further, you will be saving a penny now so that you can spend many dollars later. I've been living in my B&P house since October and after four years of building I can tell you the class is more than a bargain.

[Yuhjn]

I Will be building our home this year, and I have access to all the logs I need, and have a choice of straight pine trees, or red cedar. I was thinking of buiding a verticle hme ,but have decided to go with piece en piece. I know the cedar is more resistant to insects, but the pines have sooooo much less taper.
Tips please !

Best advice I can give you is take the class.

Beyond that you dont want to build vertical unless you have to. You can also build with pine without issue.

But knowing what I know from taking the class, how much information it provides, and the amount of experience that went into that information, I have to say you'd be crazy to build without the class.

The class is the best investment you can make in your log home. Without it you will spend more money for an inferior home. Guarenteed.

[eddienpk]

I have yet to get concrete reason as to why building with vertical logs is so not good. Why is it that 2 x 4 framing is done vertical? As to not taking the class has nothing to do with not affording it. We have a budget for just about everything we do. I never said we didn't have the money, I stated it wasn't in the budget. We have a budget for what will go into the home as well as our kid's education, and so on and that is what we will spend out of the bank allowing a 15% overage. No bank needed. www.dorothyainsworth.com is a good place to disprove vertical log construction, so is stockadeloghome.com, ad there are several that use cedar as well as pine and still in business and demand. All I would like to see is one that collaspe or not hold up. I like traditional log construction as well. I can't knock what I can't prove to be bad. We are prepaired and able to build, but still are going to weigh all the options as well as build and live in a home we like.

[Yuhjn]

I have yet to get concrete reason as to why building with vertical logs is so not good. Why is it that 2 x 4 framing is done vertical? As to not taking the class has nothing to do with not affording it. We have a budget for just about everything we do. I never said we didn't have the money, I stated it wasn't in the budget. We have a budget for what will go into the home as well as our kid's education, and so on and that is what we will spend out of the bank allowing a 15% overage. No bank needed. www.dorothyainsworth.com is a good place to disprove vertical log construction, so is stockadeloghome.com, ad there are several that use cedar as well as pine and still in business and demand. All I would like to see is one that collaspe or not hold up. I like traditional log construction as well. I can't knock what I can't prove to be bad. We are prepaired and able to build, but still are going to weigh all the options as well as build and live in a home we like.

We're not going to get into a debate about the best ways to build log home with someone who hasnt taken the class. Our opinions are clearly stated on the site. The LHBA makes recommendations, which you are free to disregard if you like.

That said, there are LHBA members who have built vertically. And the LHBA did their best to support those people in their endevors.

The bottom line is not horizontal vs vertical, the bottom line is take the class. If you take it, we'll help you. If you dont, you'll be more or less on your own.

No one is going to spend their time trying to convince you to take the class beyond what's already been said. We've told you it will be the best investment you'll make in your log home, and we say this all the time in many of the public threads. If you choose not to take it, we certainly are not going to debate the finer points of log construction with you.

If, for example, we tell you that building with vertical logs is more difficult, you'll want to know why. Now we have to get into the logisits of log lifting and log stacking. From there you might start talking about what mechanized assistance can be used to life logs using vertical techniques. At that piont we'll have to start talking about driving rebard with vertical logs, and so on and so on. These are the finer points of log construction and beyond the scope of public threads.

[eddienpk]

I am by no means trying to start a debate, I was only responding to a reply sent to me, and I haven't decided not to take the class. I frequent this site to obtain info, and to admire the talent that your instructor has passed on to so many people, but I don't post here to debate. If a question can't be asked by an outsider, then does that mean we are to just follow orders and not wonder why? Could you direct me to those that you have helped build using the vertical method? Would like to see those as well. I read a post here dated 02 02 2002 on this method.

[Yuhjn]

The short answer really is just that it's more difficult and more labor. We recommend vertical construction on in cases where your available logs are not long enough or not straight enough for our standard techniques.

As to why they are more difficult, that's a very long answer. (see above post about getting into all this in public forums)

Personally I dont know if any of the active forum members have built vertically. Perhaps other members will see this post and can give you an email address or something.

[Basil]

Vertical building with logs isn't the "wrong" way; it's simply not the way most of us on this forum know. It's more difficult to stabilize, but it's not wrong and nobody should tell you it is. When using shorter logs, piece-en-piece construction is the first stop most of the people on this forum make on their way to deciding how to build. I'm guessing that, since many code people cringe at the idea of anything outside their realm of knowledge, it would be a tougher sell. If you don't have to worry about codes, that's great (since you are doing the mortgage free route).

[rocklock]

Ok lets start...
First, logs and wood shrink about 10% in diameter.
Second, they don't shrink very much if at all in length. See the below picture where boards butt. Almost no gap.
Third, even stick frame home shrink some even when using kiln dried lumber...
Forth, all real log home are built with green logs and will shrink. Some more than others.
I have a picture of what will happen to your lumber (logs) when built when green.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/flintlock1/100_0303.jpg
That stuff between the board is rope that was stuffed between the boards...
So if you guild with green logs, then your logs will shrink (like these green boards) and then you will need to stuff stuff between you logs until they stop shrinking.
So there... Build it and stuff away. Good luck.

[Loghomeguy]

THE primary reason log buildings are constructed with logs horizontally has to do with dominoes.

Stand ten up about 1/8th inch apart and tap the end one toward the others,,,,, bringgggging the house down with a slight breath

Now take those same ten and lay them flat end to end five on five,,,,, Texas can be tornado country, so vertical logs , not for me, My 30 years construction experience say no no no !

It is a stability issue period.

I find that people will do what they set out to do which is a good thing, it is and should be a free country. It does not affect me because I do not have to live in it, I cannot see it at night, or from my home :)

I also subscribe to the Darwinian theory that any house built so poorly that it falls in and sends the builder to his/her demise, well it's a really good thing for the human genetic pool !

Cedar can be good for wall logs ( as I have stated before_) It is NOT a viable structural span wood , you will need DF or Tamarack or western Hemlock for that!


Mikey Class of 1987