What is a sounder plan?

[t.shank2]

I'm planning my future (I'm about to go off to college) around living in an affordable log house after college, and I want to know which is a better plan:

To build a small, conservative, cheaper cabin and expand it over time as I accumulate more money over the years and my family grows, or build a house that will accommodate all future needs from the start, and suffer the extra cost?

From what I've heard most people build everything they want right away, and I'm wondering if the 1st plan ever practiced.

Remember I plan on having almost no money to start with, plus a large college debt, and I want to take out as few loans as possible.

Forgive me if this seems to be a naive or uninformed question, but I'm new to these forums, and this is a genuine concern of mine.

-Shank

[rreidnauer]

I'm going to say neither choice!!

OK, calm down, I'll explain my unexpected answer. :-)

If you don't have the cash, don't build a big place. It'd be a plan likely to fail in one fashion or another. Don't risk it.

Building a small place, and adding addition after addition is a royal pain as well. Just ask ClaireNJ about additions!! Not fun.

OK, so don't build big, don't build small and add on, what the heck do I suggest? I suggest building BOTH!!!!

Whaaaa?????

Yes, build them both if the property can support it. Just don't do it at the same time. For now, build a small place, but plan a location for the future large home. Building the small home will provide you a place to live, as well as gaining great experience for the tasks of a larger home. Then, when you are ready, build your larger home. You'll still have a wonderful guest/in-law house, or you could rent it for additional income.

What do ya think?

[StressMan79]

That's what I am doing... building a small !500 sf home this summer, then finishing it next year. in a few years, maybe I'll start the "main cabin"... or maybe I'll put my money in building/buying a place in Thailand... where you really are free ("Thai" means "free", the country used to be called "Siam" (pronounced "see-am"). Anyway, I would very much agree with Rod. There are things I am doing in my starter cabin that I would not do in my "larger place." BTW, I will have some 3d renders soon of the 17x17 + 200 sf loft home... all solar soon.

[Basil]

The smaller building could be a garage, workshop, or whatever when you build the big house. Wish I'd built small first, I would have done the large house a lot faster if I'd started small!

[WNYcabinplannin]

i've been wondering about all this too. I know I'll learn more at the class this month, but trying to understand pros/cons on size. I have access to big long logs (35' 12"+ tip) and while I originally thought I'd go 25x25, 30x30 doesn't seem like it'd cost that much more (roof expense mostly, a few grand more for larger basement) that would justify it. But i've also considered smaller foot print, additional story- 2 story + small loft. smaller concrete bill, smaller roof, etc and finish loft after inspector assesses sq. ft'g.? But a 25x25 with a full walkout basement +2 stories +loft would be taller than wide and sounds like a log-tower not cabin...
If I was planning to sell my 1st one after 2-5 years and build 2nd bigger one- what size would sell best?

[Basil]

If you are building just to sell, the main rule in my area of the country (KY) is to build three bedrooms, two baths. Anything less and you won't have a buyer. Anything more and you are aiming at higher economic families and generally lessening the potential # of buyers. Generally you get less per square foot above 2000 feet anyway. Should check with builders/contractors in your area about this.

[2 cents]

WNYcabinplannin,
Since you have the logs, I'd go 30x30. Seems to me it'd be approximately the same amount of effort as a 25x25. I look at it this way. It is going to be back-breaking work either way. I'd hate to go through all that and at the end say, gee, I love this house, but I really wish I had just a little more storage space... or whatever. Make sure you decide what is important to YOU. Space is important to me. Another thing to note, if you do a smaller pitch roof you will use the same amount of materials that a smaller size house would use. For instance I'm doing a 4/12 pitch roof on a 40x40 and my rafters will be approximately the same length as rocklock's, who did a 30x30 with 6/12 pitch roof.

t.shank,
Right now we are building a 14x14 "toolshed", which we can build without having to get a permit..... it is an invaluable learning experience. It will be big enough to stay in when it's done, and it is helping us learn what will really be involved in building the house, and to be ready for it, have time to think about how we're going to do it, etc. The logs are about 1/3 the size of what we'll be building the house with, so easier to handle, and I don't feel so bad if it's not perfect... this is the practice structure, and I'll get it perfect next time, when it really counts.

But the thing really i like about the shed is it is relatively cheap, no permit needed, relatively quick to put up (mostly because of not having to wait/pay for the dang permit), a great hands-on learning experience, and we could live in it for as long as we needed to (if TSHTF, or whatever)...... with a 10x14 sleeping loft it will be about 330 sq ft.....not really big enough to raise a few kids like we are planning (hoping), at least not comfortably.... but certainly fine for a couple of people. Later it can be used as a guest house, or play house, or, maybe we could actually use it as a tool shed, lol.

Hey, I get to use my name for a pun.....
Just my "2 cents", har har

[WNYcabinplannin]

$.02-
thanks for input. I was thinking the extra effort from 25sq to 30x30 would be modest. Roof pitch is surely a major design consideration. Here in western NY, we can get hammered with snow.
(I'm assuming we'll learn about snowload in class) 4/12 would be shallower than many would use, but you do see plenty around here on stickframed. I'm sure on a 30x30, with a 4/12 pitch I'd need a center RPSL and one BIG motha of a RP. Guy with a woodmizer saw is willing to cut 4x10s for .83 a linear foot, so roof joists (say 18 each side x2) 20' long 36x20x.83 is right b'low $600 for all the roof joists ( I can live with that!).

11 days til my class!
WNY CP

[StressMan79]

the stress on a beam goes up as the length squared. therefore the stress on the same 4x10 is 44% higher on 30 x 30 vs the 25x25. Anyway, if you were just good with the 4x on the smaller unit, you'd have to decrease SIGNIFICANLTY the spacing I see you are planning 2' OC (BTW, you'd need 26 per side for this spacing (25+7*2)/2+1=24.5+1, ~26.

Also, if you do the math, the pitch doesn't get you anything until the snow slides off. You can't (legally) take advantage of this until the pitch goes to 12/12 (although TJI's do give SLIGHT help for pitches over 6/12 (on the order of 1 inch additional span allowable). TJI's aren't to be used if you can help it. They cost me 2.58/lin ft (one bid was for 3.40!). I needed 35' rafters, so I was stuck.

Anyway, I think they will give you a copy of some engineered span tables in the class. If you don't feel comfortable using them, I would either get the help to get you up to speed or have your plans engineered (which may be required in your jurisdiction anyway)

-Peter

[WNYcabinplannin]

WOW- it's nice to get an engineer's perspective. Thanks Peter.
I'll have to see the span tables. I just figured 4x10's 2' OC would be drastically overkill from minimum. I've seen some 'kit homes' out here, that besides looking horrible, had 6 inch round log purlins every 3 feet on about a 6/12 pitch. Either they're horribly under-supported or I'm guessing way too high.
Dont even know what a TJI is yet ;)
Class time soon anyhow :
F

[StressMan79]

Truss Joist Incorporated (?), now owned by weyerhauser, an engineered I-beam, there are other brands as well.

Purlins support rafters, if there was rafter support every 3 ft, then your rafters would be OK. the problem is spanning 25/2=12.5 (or more) ft if they were purlins, they would likely be OK, so long as they were supported at center as well. They only would have a "tributary width" (the amount of width that they are actually supporting) of 3 ft, so the load would not be that great. Your ridgepole will have to be large, b/c if you build the LHBA recommended way, you will have to take 1/2 the roof load by the RP (no purlins).

Yes, you will learn LOTS in the class, and any time you are unsure of something, the members area is VERY helpful (the old posts alone will take you months to read).

-Peter

[WNYcabinplannin]

***Yes, you will learn LOTS in the class, and any time you are unsure of something, the members area is VERY helpful (the old posts alone will take you months to read)***

that's the key. (I'll save the remainder of my roof Q's to be answered in class for now... head popping)

I'm trying to figure if I can pull off a build this year!?!?
I know prep is a large part. I'm taking the class this month. i've got my property search down to a few sweet spots. I've found a logger I trust. I have enough cash to build.

I know it sounds a tad hurried and ambitious- but I'd really like to start right after the class. If the only reason NOT to build right after the class is resources- is there any reason to NOT build the same year as the class??

[Yuhjn]

. If the only reason NOT to build right after the class is resources- is there any reason to NOT build the same year as the class??

You'll save money, that's about it.

I understand how anxious you are to start, and I would not discourage you. But what I would say is dont focus on your completion. Just plan to work until it's done.

If you have cash, you can probalby start the day after you take the class.

[Kola]

Welcome WNY! I can definitely sense you already have your wheels spinning in the dirt. This is good.

I grew up in WNY. I spent a lot of time around Franklinville/Case Lake/Olean region and dated a great girl from Holland NY. Where abouts are you at or planning to build?

Kola

[WNYcabinplannin]

Kola:
I'm SE of Rochester, NY, which is an hour East of Buffalo/niagara falls. i'll be building in the Naples, NY area. The hills up there are amazing, jr. version of the Adirondacks... there's a wine region around the 'finger lakes' and a few ski resorts. My dream scenario would be to build 1st cabin, enjoy a few years, then sell it to some ski junkie for it's proximity to the slopes. THEN build better, after making the profit- if i'm lucky enough to make enough jack to build a cabin as nice as Pam's but with a Tulikivi soapstone masonry heater, and a wood fired hot tub. :)

Yuhjn- I'm encouraged. I'm happy if I can get the shell built, roof on, rough plumbing, electric and windows in this spring/summer/early fall. Then I can slow down, do 2 days a week in the winter inside with the woodstove going. I think roofed shell is realistic for this season, eh?

[t.shank2]

Thanks for the help. I still have several years to plan before I am out of college, but I think I understand what I need to think about. The engineering info was very enlightening as well.

Another question I have, (a little off topic) is how much location matters to the construction. For example: how does climate/geography come into play (outside of government/politics/law). Are there any natural barriers in certain parts of the country. I have family in Colorado, Wyoming, and Alaska, and want to build my cabin in one of these three. Is the land of one preferable to the land of another?

Right now it just seems to me to be a matter of cost and resources. If I build in Wyoming I doubt the land I will buy will have trees, so I'll have to buy my own logs. I've heard that some parts of Alaska are a pain to build on (water in the ground, etc.). In Wyoming, it is more probable that I'll have to buy actual trees to make a windshield to protect my cabin. Colorado has few natural barriers, its just that land is more expensive. (Damn rich folk from California building their winter retreats).

Do any of you have a preference between Wyoming, Alaska, and Colorado?

[Yuhjn]

I'm happy if I can get the shell built, roof on, rough plumbing, electric and windows in this spring/summer/early fall. Then I can slow down, do 2 days a week in the winter inside with the woodstove going. I think roofed shell is realistic for this season, eh?


And then here comes the boiler-plate answer. It depends! (you knew I was going to say that right). Really it depends on your motivation, cash, free time, construction experience, simplicity of your build plan, and access to helpers.

There is the story of the 9 week log home, which you've probably read. You're unlikely to build faster than that, but it's not an exageration that you can put up one of these houses almost overnight under the right circumstances.

Other people spend as long as 20 years building, which you are also unlikely to match.

On a more practical note: If you can live on your land, have friends and family to help, plenty of cash, good physical health, and lots of motivation, you can build the entire thing start to finish in a season.

But again the one thing I would suggest you try not to do is plan your completion dates beyond your next milestone. If you plan for dates too much and start missing your dates, you can have your plans really go up in smoke. Allow yourself as much time as it takes, no more no less.

Also your entire plan will change and re-arrange itself after you take the class. It will completely reset your priorities.

If you really take Skip's tips to heart, like Keep it Simple! It will go a long way toward getting your build complete and your house livable.

Skip had lots and lots of tips for us, but the most important one is dont have delusions of grandure. You'll hear this in class more than once. Keep it simple and it can be quite easy. But you can also make it impossible on yourself if you choose to.

[Klapton]

There are plenty of log homes in Colorado, Wyoming, and Alaska. Bear in mind that where you build in those states may affect the cost of your logs. Fuel prices to transport them will drive the price up.

You mention soggy soil in Alaska... With any parcel of land you consider, one of the most important things is going to be your septic system. The soil determines if you can have a septic system, and what type. "Gravity" or "Conventional" septic systems are the simplest and cheapest. Pressurized are more expensive, and sand mounds even more.

Before you make any offer on any land, make sure you talk with a realtor or someone who knows how this stuff works, and always make a CONTINGENT offer. The realtor should have premade forms for this. That way if the soils can't support the septic system you want (or just about any other reason you want to come up with) you can back out without losing your earnest money.

[StressMan79]

(I'll save the remainder of my roof Q's to be answered in class for now... head popping)
really?!

[WNYcabinplannin]

"Also your entire plan will change and re-arrange itself after you take the class. It will completely reset your priorities."
wuhjn- No doubt this is true, eminent and necessary! I fully expect my plan will evolve, picture to become more clear, time requirements will be further explained. Most important- despite having a friend who took the class in the early 80's and having had 1000's of hours around the campfire talking butt and pass- I still have concepts that are semi-greek to me.

Peter- really, the physics I roughly understand, but know that even with my mental picture of what I'd like my roof system to be, I can't calculate it all until I get the span tables and talk to a NY engineer. I feel pretty safe though that a 2 foot wide ridgepole with 4x10's 2' OC and 4/12 pitch could hold up 3 school buses.
cheers,
Fletcher

[edkemper]

Is a snow load of 30# high or not so much? I'd like to lower the pitch on my roof to take advantage of long extensions to cover my surrounding porch. Not exactly sure what the snow load means in a practical since but I need to learn and understand. How low of a pitch could I have with a 30# requirement? Or am I asking the right question?

edkemper

[ragdump]

Ragdump
That should mean 30 Lbs. per sq. ft.,of weight ,that's not too much my place is at 4000 ft. in Northern Calif. and my snow load is 110 Lbs. You need an engineer for snow load

[Will Dye]

I don't know how it goes around the rest of the country, but Basil has it right for Kentucky...3 bedroom 2 bath is what seems to bring the right combination of money brought in versus time on the market.

[StressMan79]

Ragdump
That should mean 30 Lbs. per sq. ft.,of weight ,that's not too much my place is at 4000 ft. in Northern Calif. and my snow load is 110 Lbs. You need an engineer for snow load

you don't need an engineer. You just need to be comfotable with some tables/equations. Call the county planning dept for the number to use. It may vary by elevation. You simply take the snow load (psf) and multiply by the rafter spacing (ft) to get the rafter snow load (lb/ft) engineers call this 'w'. if you need more load carrying capacity, you you can reduce w by decreasing the rafter spacing. Otherwise, you can decrease the span by adding purlins or making your house smaller. Alternatively, you can increase E/I or Fb by changing the species or the geometry (round logs vs. 4x10s vs 4x12s). However, depending on where you live, you may need your plans engineered anyway. My county told me no engineering was required for me, since I am a member of LHBA and seem to be quite knowledgable about it. That and I am building for myself.

-Peter

PS 30psf is pretty benign. Mine is 70 psf.

[edkemper]

My property is at 4600 ft and have a snow load of 30. Lucky me.

edkemper

[lisaandmark]

[quote=WNYcabinplannin]

I understand how anxious you are to start, and I would not discourage you. But what I would say is dont focus on your completion. Just plan to work until it's done.



Oh this had me laughing!!! We built in 2001 and we STILL aren't done! I'm talking about little things -- finishing some drywall, trim etc. We did just build a "box" and we've added on since then -- a sunroom on the South side -- and recently added a garage and a bonus room above that.