Hi, my first question about green logs

[Valley]

Hi,
I'm new here and have a couple of questions to start with. Hope you can help. First, what is the general opinion on a post and log home? I've been studying James Mitchell's book on modular post and log. The entire construction concept works great for my budget and for the fact that I'll be building by myself, mortgage free.

Second, I want to work with green logs. Mitchell recommends a salt brine applied to the logs after peeling to ensure they don't dry too quick. Does the salt brine need to be applied more than once? Will rain wash off the salt? I'm assuming at some point I would need to wash the brine off prior to finishing the logs? Any thoughts or advice on that?

Thanks for any help you can offer and thanks very much for providing this forum.

[adubar]

Hello Valley,

The LHBA's preferred building method uses stacked logs rather than joining and pegging.
The issue of the drying time of the green logs are not of that great importance to our builders. As far as "salts," we use borates to treat logs, timber and lumber (green and/or dry). The borate treatment is mainly used as an anti-pest treatment from the onsent, after the logs are peeled and generally before they are decked.

The borate salts are the very thing that keep the bugs at bay, so we don't really want to remove them.
I believe most builders do not reaply once they've done the initial treatment, except to touch up if they feel the need.

As far as post and beam construction goes, it can result in some very handsome homes, but the learning curve for the methods employed might be out of reach of quite a few casual "DIYers." Some people have built these types of structures only referencing a book, but I would caution anyone on doing that. Those timbers can get very heavy and will not forgive an inept builder. Get an engineer involved that knows post and beam construction. And if you can afford it, take one of the many accredited courses on building using the method before attempting (there are several in North America and other parts of the world and most don't cost an arm and a leg to attend).

[Valley]

Thanks for the reply adubar. I don't think what I am doing is a true post and beam, or maybe it is, I'm still learning. Basically I will have a vertical logs about 8'-0" tall spaced about 8'-0" o/c with horizontal logs in between about 8'-0" long stacked to wall height. Yes, I will be consulting an engineer on this project as the local building inspector will require it and I need a few structural issues reviewed. I was wood truss designer for about 17 years so I have a lot of knowledge regarding structural design, basically I understand the importance of seeking qualified advice.

Thanks for the info on borates. That points me in the right direction on that subject.

Also, I was going to have the engineer design a timber roof truss for me. I don't believe I will be pegging the truss but rather will employ the use of steel gussets w/ lag bolted connections, or whatever the engineer will permit. He is reluctant to design me a truss with peg connections because he does not know how qualified I am to cut and peg those joints.

Thanks so much for you help.

This forum is awesome. I have been reading posts regarding living debt free which is part of our goal in the near future.

[adubar]

That sounds more like "piece en piece" construction.

I don't have one of Mitchell's books, but I assume he is pinning to the verticle logs, correct?

I believe we had at least one member that used a similar system due to the fact that they came into quite a few free logs that were too short to use in full butt and pass.

The main issue with piece en piece, if that is the method you are looking at, is mitigating moisture. Good roof overhangs as well las sealers for the logs can help.

Are you planning on chinking between the logs?

[akemt]

Here's the piece en piece he's talking about from the student log homes: http://www.loghomebuilders.org/image-galleries/student-log-homes/mark-lisa-sherrodd

[Valley]

The concept is similar to what I am planning to use. The difference being that my logs will extend to the top of the wall. I don't want any drywall on the exterior walls. One of my motivations in using logs was to avoid the expense required when building a convential stick frame home with drywall etc.

[Valley]

Thanks for the info on roof overhangs. The post and log system uses a spline connection every 8'-0". That is, the horizontal log has a vertical groove routed out at each end, which is 3/4" wide and about 1.5 inches deep. The vertical log/post would have the same groove size running the length of the log, that is top to bottom. One of my concerns is the shrinkage in the vertical log could amount to 1/2" which would give me a 1/4" gap on each side. Unless the vertical post/log was seasoned I guess I would have to seal the spline connection or chinking at that connection.

I do wish my logs were free, but alas, I must pay for them. The main reason I want to use this system is because I don't want to incur the cost of a boom truck which I assume is needed when using the butt and pass system. If not, please let me know. I may reconsider which log system I use. Basically, I'll be building alone, literally me all by myself. I may have help from time to time, but I need to be able to manage the logs by myself. My calcs at this point in time have me estimating a 12" x 8' log at about 220 lbs which I can manage.

BTW, what is/are las sealers?

[adubar]

With the LHBA's preferred building methods you don't need a boom truck. In the class there is a section on lifting mechanics and some pretty sound ideas on how to get things done without spending lots of money on rental machinery. In many areas that people build, booms and cranes, let alone excavation equipment are not practical--but, yet they build, often using methods thousands of years old to get heavy things from point "a" to point "b."

The "spline" method is probably as old as the pinning method for Piece en Piece. Dovetails and a dovetail groove have been used as well.

I think you could get around any shrinking problems by looking at some different ways to cut your grooves and shapes of splines or other ways to attach the logs as well as incorporate chinking into your design, which would give you some leeway (Also, some joinery is intended for green wood--tricks learned in timberbraming where the connection gets tighter when the wood dries--some specialized dovetails I've seen come to mind).

Chinking could help in the moisture-vulnerable areas particularly where the horizontal logs will be meeting the posts.
.
There are many things in the LHBA's methods that would be relavent to what you are currently planning. But, then again, you might find the advantages of the LHBA's B& P method irresistible and go with that method....



"las sealers" is a typo on my part. The line should have been: "...as well as sealer." My keystrokes ran into each other.

The connections between logs should be caulked or sealed in some way to help protect the grooves of the logs from moisture penetration. With the LHBA's methodology this would not be a concern.

[Valley]

O.K., now you have captured my attention. Are LHBA's preferred building methods available in any format other than via the courses? Or can you recommend a good book. I don't believe I can wait until classes are available.

[StressMan79]

shoot paul an email. I don't want to give it out on here, but it is on his website. http://www.paulkahle.com/log.html. If you tab through his process, you can see his rope lifting scheme. This will be difficult with NO ONE to help. It could be done.

I have seen a cabin built with B&P that used 6' logs that had been slabbed. This is generally not a great idea, as you loose much of the rot inegrity of the log, but this guy built in semiarid forest with generous overhangs. He did it himself, with occaisional help from his wife. He said it had three advantages: 1-he could handle the logs by himself and it was safer, 2-less wasted wood in doors, windows, etc. and 3-he could use crooked trees from his property. I have been there, and they tended to grow straight for 10 feet or so, then make an abrupt kink of roughly 3-5 degrees. This made the tree unsuitable, unless he utillized this method.

Anyway, the Piece en piece thread above will give more info, and I usually refer to this type of construction as "slab on slab" since you have to slab the logs first.

-Peter

[Valley]

Pauls link was very helpful. I may be turned off modular post and log, no worries though, it's only the cost of a book.

But here is another question for you or anyone else that cares to reply. Why do you not scribe your logs? or do some do that?

[StressMan79]

1) we don't have to
2) cutting logs introduces pathways for rot and insects
3) it is difficult to do correctly

actually 1 and 3 kind of go together...

[Valley]

#2 is very logical. I like 1 and 3 as well.

[adubar]

Valley,

The class is the best way and quickest for getting good information on the building processes and methods preferred by the LBHA. I will say that the information is not secret, but the class is probably the only place that you will find all of the divergent information, sources and experience put together as a whole. On your own, you could easily spend many hours over years finding the information-- left to your own devises. My own experience was that quite a bit of the log building information presented in the class, I myself had stumbled upon in over 15 years of reading and researching on the subject (amassing a sizable library in the process). Compare that to a two day class, which shows you first hand and includes other information that is very important in getting your methodology down. After 15 years, there was quite a bit of information I was missing. If I had known what I now know 20 years ago, I would have taken the class back when Skip was still with the U.W. and saved the time and saved some of the expense of of the books I purchased during those years (I do love books, though!).

A major part of the "methodology" is to NOT rush into building. Patience and time are what allows most builders to save money and build the right way first time 'round.

You could look for local LHBA's members that are currently building to possibly lend your time and labor to see things first hand. But, the class will fill in details that you might miss along the way.

[Valley]

Thanks adubar. In a very short time I have realized that I do need the course and I will plan that into my schedule. Hopefully there will be one late this year or early next year. I have spoken to my log supplier and we have plans now to cut and deliver the logs around mid winter rather than late fall.

Should I continue with my design stage and plan my foundation and get it approved by my engineer or should I wait until after taking the course? How much of the course deals with the foundation?

Thanks again for your input.

[StressMan79]

valley,

the LHBA will recommend not starting for 2 years after the course to allow you to find deals on logs, building materials, builders, land, etc. The end of this year is pretty sporty. That being said, there are some differences between foundations for a log home and a stick frame. Most of it deals with the weight--for instance cinder block is not really a good choice. You can make piers yourself and save some $$. You could do a stem wall or even a full basement with the right engineering. That being said, you can always play around with floorplans (although you'll find some easier elements once you take the class) and I would not do any pouring, since you will want to know exactly what goes on top (how many RPSLs, for example). You may decide to just go with LHBA stock plans which have been looked over by a licensed PE (in WA and OR). I think you may get a discount on them. Even if you don't they are totally reasonable.

In short, I would put off my plans for at least 1 year to allow you all the goodness that the LHBA can give. I would not pour my foundation until I took the class and understand fully the process... don't want to be a spoil sport...

--Peter

[greenthumb]

Just my .02, for whatever its worth...

Hold off on the design phase for now... don't build anything yet. Take the class. I know how you feel on getting ready to get started, but you'll probably save way more in the long run by just waiting for a class. Adubar is right- you could acquire most of the information over the course of years by finding a few sources and by trial and error- which can be very costly. I've found a few sources that include some of the information taught in class- none of them are complete in comparison to what is taught in two days, and there is soooo much more available over in the members area of the forums.

Now... Just out of curiosity, what do you have in mind for a foundation, basement or crawlspace?

[Valley]

Crawlspace on piers.

[Valley]

Actually I have to a local engineer with Nova Scotia seal review, design the foundation and seal off on any plans I have(as per the local building department). I will be drawing my own plans, something that has been part of my 17 years as a designer. Although it may not hurt to consider using LHBA stock plans and just get my engineer to seal those.

For the life of me though I cannot imagine why I would need to wait two years to start building. I have one reliable supplier for logs, I have the land, I have the lot cleared and a driveway in and I have this terribly strong desire to get my family of 4 out of this shoebox rental we are in.....sigh!!....patience eh!.....I guess I'll be learning that too.

Now, if only I can get into a course.

Thanks for the input Peter.

[patrickandbianca]

The two years is just a recommendation. There are plenty of people that dont wait two years. It is recommended so that you have time to find deals on things you will need. I havent bought anything I need since the class (Feb 08), except the stock plans. If I wasnt going to have to move it all and I had somewhere to store it I could have picked up a lot of really nice things (Cabinets, flooring, dimensional lumber, woodstove, etc). As it stands now, i will probably end up in a situation similar to yours and not have the time to find as many deals as I would like. There are also a lot of people that dont wait for deals, and they still come out ahead of what they would have paid for someone else to build their place. I am sure that a class will open up in the fall. You never know. We had plans for two classes before we finally made it out there, and it was definitely worth it.

Patrick

[Valley]

I appreciate the input. I can certainly understand the value of waiting for 2 years. With the base concept being building debt free there obviously has to some time frames involved. But, again, we are living in a cramped environment. It's kind of difficult for the family at times, so that is what makes me anxious.

[StressMan79]

if you have lots of one, you don't need much of the other.

I agree with patrick, the 2 years is only a suggestion. In fact the entire class is only a bunch of suggestions. They never say "you must do it this way" they only tell you what has worked for them and what has reportedly worked for others. This forum gives you insight into works in progress and members freely giving of their experiences. Whatever you decide, I will attempt to help you (I expect many others will as well)

[Valley]

My supplier will be charging me $500/1000 for white or red pine logs not including delivery which will should be about $150 x 6 trips. So, my preliminary estimate is about $6000 in logs and $900 in delivery. How does that sound?

[Valley]

Thanks again Peter. You and others have been a huge help in the last 24 hours. If you recall I was about to order logs in a week or so. Well, that pressure is now gone. My wife is fully on board for me flying to the other coast to take this course, so that will be my focus for now. Hopefully there'll be a course in the late fall or early winter. Quite honestly the response I have recieved from this forum in such a short length of time speaks volumes to me about the integrity of the LHBA.

Thanks,
Jim

[Free Ranger]

What is the size of your floorplan ? And what size Pine logs are you getting?

I hope to build from Eastern White Pine and will prob get the logs from Quebec.

[Valley]

My entire thinking has changed in short order. So has my thinking on floor plans. I think I am limited to 30' long logs so I am contemplating a 26' x 26' or thereabouts and a 2 1/2 story. I'm basing that on what I've seen for Student Log Homes on this site. And I will be keeping the structure as simple as possible, likely a 6/12 gable roof. At this point I am assuming I will be getting 12"-14" logs. My logs will coming from a local logger about 30 miles from here. He told me it is difficult to find good straight White Pine and that straight Red Pine is much easier to find, so unless I am told otherwise I will likely order Red Pine, or maybe a mix of Red and White could be useful. But I've got til November before I need to order.

[adubar]

Straight is good. But, as is often quoted on these forums, "Use what you got or can get."

The prices you've quoted sound resonable. However, with current building being on the down side, it is a matter of time before the local loggers and sawmills will be reducing prices for timber/logs. In my local, a couple of the big boys are selling off logging/milling operations to weather out the down turn in new home construction. The logs are still there.....

One thing you might want to consider is if the source you currently have is the ONLY source available to you. As it sounds like you've been into this adventure for a short while now, you may have not tapped all the log sources immediately available to you in your area. The class provides some guides as to how to go about sourcing and finding the best deals.

-Andrew