Hello from Canada

[Free Ranger]

Hello all - I've been coming back to this website for over a year now so I figured I would finally sign up and make some posts !

I'm a 27 year old from Ontario, Canada. I am married and my wife and I own a 100 acre hobby farm w/ horses. We have a red pine plantation that we hope to use from to build various log buildings (trees are only 8-10 inches at the butt). Our dream is to build a scandanavian scribe log home in the next 2-3 years. We are getting a reputable log home builder to make the shell for us out of 20 inch logs. I've read in other posts the arguments over Butt&Pass vs. SaddleNotch/Scribe. I don't particularily think one is better than the other (even though both have advantages) but I do think it's up to one's taste in how they want their log house to look.

I am getting a lot of great ideas with all these student built log homes. There seems to be a lot of talented people on this site.

Oh, and I am like some of the people on this site where I hate working for the man. My dream is to 'retire' from 9-5 as early as possible (mid 40's?) and hope to continue bringing in income with my building/construction skills.

[Shark]

Welcome!
I'm a canuck as well, from SK, but living in the US.

I agree with you, it's your $ & your time, so definitely build the house you want to build. I'll bet that just reading through the site here you found alot of info that would apply to any log home, not just one certain style, that will help with the life of your future home.

That's another reason why alot of folks here are building the B&P style, the more work you can do yourself, then the more cash you save, & the quicker you retire. We're planning to build a second one someday (1st is getting close to done), & we should be mortgage-free, all thanks to the LHBA, it's really cool.

Anyways, welcome to the forum :)

[Timberwolf]

Marc,

Where in Ontario are you located?

Jason.

[Free Ranger]

Hello Jason,

[Free Ranger]

Wicked house Shark. I know how good it feels to build on your own land. Keep up the good work.

I guess it would have been hard builing a log house in SK, baring no trees around ! Mind you , you would have been close to BC.

[Yuhjn]

I'm sure you've anticipated this response, especially if you've spent much time on this site, but I would strongly recommend against a full scribe home. I know many people think they look nice, but they dont hold up nearly as well as a butt and pass. They are much more vulnerable to water damage and insect damage.

The rule of thumb is, the more you cut into your logs, the more damage you've done to them.

So when you say they each have their own advantages and disadvantages I would argue that is not true, BnP has many advantages over full scribe but I would challenge anyone to find an advantage of full scribe over BnP with the two possible exceptions of "it takes less chinking" and "I think it looks cooler". In my view, trading some chinking for having every single one of my logs have a huge groove cut down the entire length and then every corner be saddlenotched (this is where your home will rot first) is not even close to worth it.

My advice is take the class. After spending two days in Skip's house learning why BnP is so much better, it's extremely unlikely you'll want to build anything but BnP.

[Free Ranger]

Haha yes, I was somewhat expecting a response like yours. I appreciate your concern on the matter. My wife and I have alot of decisions to make in the next 2 years. We also want to go off-the-grid w/ geothermal heating-cooling and woodstove. Perhaps a decent sized windmill as well.
This also, is the first website I have stumbled upon where log rot is talked about religiously. Nowhere on a scandanavian website have I read about log rot, only about insect infestiation. The course will not simply be $700 or $800 in my case as I would have to fly from Canada and stay in hotel and such. So if I am not able to retrieve enough free information in regards to building a B&P log homes, I will have to shell out the $2,000 it would cost for me to attend a seminar. I already have the knowledge on building subfloors and roofing structures and porches w/decks.

[StressMan79]

Belange,

2k is not that much, when you consider the entire cost of your home and what you can save if you take the class (I expect to save >10x that), however, if you have made up your mind not to take the course and to build SC, then more power to you. Make sure the custom builder" is doing a scandinavian chinkless, not some modified method which is popular and faster. I don't know how much the custom builder gets, but it won't be cheap.

More important than what you build is the quality with which it is built. Any (good) method will last until you are dead. If you hate chinking, no amount of savings will make up for hating the home you live in. I have seen "canadian" chinkless homes that were ready to fall down in less than 10 years. I have seen 30 year old BP homes that show no wear with almost no maintenance. Just be careful.

I'll be happy to answer your questions about alternative energy, etc. I will also be "off the grid" and am on the steep part of the learning curve.

-Peter

[Free Ranger]

Yeah I know I would be saving 10X more than the 2k invested in the seminar. To be honest, at first when I scrolled upon this website over a year ago, I didnt find the B&P that pleasing. But, I am starting the turn around. There are many huge advantages to B&P in regards with building the house myself. Our dream to go off the grid seemed to be impossible when adding those costs to a mortgage. I need to invest in a full concrete basement too, being up here in Canada with our cold winters. (no igloos around here tho ! just to clarify).

I will definitely search through more of this website to know more about the Butt & Pass method, because it is farely knew to me.

I am welcome to everyones suggestions and comments.

Peter, if you have any information/links in regards to geothermal, please send it to me.

[JD]

Welcome to the forums, Marc. I completely understand your desire to learn as much as possible about B&P before committing to anything. Check out Paul Kahle's website, http://www.paulkahle.com/log.html . He documented every step of his build, and even his notes from class. I read through the entire build before I decided to take the class and I highly recommend the class. Even if you can digest everything on Paul's site, there are some construction details that have changed. In addition, by taking the class you can see up close and personal exactly what is possible with B&P construction when you are in Skip's huge home, and you get the opportunity to meet the instructors face-to-face and get straight answers to your questions. They don't get a commission to talk you into B&P. They have no agenda other than helping you do what you want.
In the end, it all comes down to what kind of house you want and if this isn't the style you want to live in, then it's not my place to change your mind. I will say that based on your stated goals, B&P would be the way to go, IMHO. The Skip style butt and pass method enables just about anyone, with little or no experience, to build a solid home with the least money. As with anything, there are tradeoffs between time and money. If you have plenty of one, you don't need much of the other. The Skip style B&P method can be used by anyone but is especially useful for an owner-builder who can do much of the labor him/herself and doesn't want to spend the next 30 years making payments to the bank.
Whatever you decide, we're happy to help you if we can.
JD

[Timberwolf]

Renfrew.

[Free Ranger]

Do you have an email address? When do you plan on building on your log home? I would be interested in lending a hand for sure.

[Free Ranger]

Thanks for the link JD.. I will have to spend my lunch hour reading all the small steps involved.
Hopefully this fall I will try and build a B&P chicken coop/garden shed.
I guess I have one big question. Even though the settling of the logs using the B&P methos doesnt affect the windows and doors, what happens to the chinking? Will there be small gaps above and below each line of chink?(after 1 years time?) ......

[Klapton]

You pound nails into the lower log, then bend them up to act as the backer for the mortar. As the logs shrink toward their centers, a gap may develop along the top of the chinking. Because there is unsulation stuffed in between the logs, this is usually just cosmetic -- it doesn't cause drafts. To touch it up, you make some runny mortar, and use a pastry bag to squirt it into the crack.

[Free Ranger]

You pound nails into the lower log, then bend them up to act as the backer for the mortar. As the logs shrink toward their centers, a gap may develop along the top of the chinking. Because there is unsulation stuffed in between the logs, this is usually just cosmetic -- it doesn't cause drafts. To touch it up, you make some runny mortar, and use a pastry bag to squirt it into the crack.

Excellent, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Does anyone have a link to some B&P homes that are 15-20 yrs old?

[Klapton]

When you take the class, you will be inside one of the best examples of a zero-maintenance butt and pass log home that is 31 years old -- Skip's house in Monroe. The classes are usually held during seasons when it's cold an yucky, so you'll be able to see some examples of untouched-up chinking in person, stick your finger in the crack, and see that there's no draft.

I'm afraid I can't direct you to any photos where I can confirm the age of the home at the time the picture was taken.

One thing that can help determine what you are looking at (some times) is how gray and weathered the logs are. If you do not stain / seal a butt and pass log home to protect the logs from UV, they will turn gray, like an old wood fence. Some people like this look, while others don't. If you don't, that means you get to do some more work periodically to keep it looking new. But again, this is purelly cosmetic. If the logs are hand-peeled to avoid cutting into the grain, high enough off the ground to preven splash-up during rain, and protected by large roof overhangs, then there is no need to apply any sealer of any kind to the logs. They will hold up well beyond either of our lifetimes.

EDIT: I just re-read the beginning of the thread. If you choose to go Scandinavian Chinkless, the same will apply about fading of color. As others have noted, one of the reasons why we believe that BnP is superior to SC is that breathable mortar chinking allows moisture to escape from between the logs.

Any time you have wood directly against wood, capillary action draws moisture into the crack, which can promote rot. The natural response to this threat is to seal the cracks, right? While this would seem to make sense, what ends up happenning in reality, is that it seals moisture IN. Water WILL get into nooks and crannys of anything on planet earth, in spite of any effort to stop it. That's how mountains get broken down. Better to simply plan for that moisture to exist, and give it a way to evaporate and escape.

[pbs7mm]

From talking with Skip years back, the construction of his home (which is a National treasure) was mid to late 80's. Funny thing was, he said he was not sure... :0) It is fairly obvious if you watch the first few pilot episodes of Northern Exposure, you will see the logs are still quite new and not silver yet. That was 1990. He also told me that a structural engineer stated if he never did anything to the home all, it would last over 1000+ years. Amazing. It is that well done and a testament to the man and his conviction to the butt and pass method he advocated above all others. He rammed the building with a massive dozer purposely during construction. Did not budge. Dug the treads into the ground. House 1, dozer zip.

Something else Skip said that I remember about SC style and otherwise similar construction methods. Be it a beautiful craftsmanship home, any nut that wants some firewood could cut the logs off at the corners and the structural integrity of the wall is shot. You will have an almost impossible task to fix it. Essentially he said you could not and the home would be hosed. He knew some folks that had this happen.

Moisture escape as Klapton stated is critical and he is absolutely correct. B&P is the way to go. Hope this helps.