Thread on LHOTI.com

[fishandfly]

There has been a thread going on at LHOTI.com concerning the butt and pass. An issue that has come up is concerning the load that is being placed on the rebar. http://www.lhoti.com/board/showthread.php?t=2036 Half way through, a discussion started on an engineering forum as well: http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002067;p=1#000 011 I'm looking forward to the class and have signed up for the email alert, but I would like to hear an answer to this issue. Simply put it is that the engineers have calculated out that the bottom course of rebar is receiving 3000lbs of force each when spaced at 2ft. A LHBA guy who is an engineer posted that it was capable of 500 lbs per rebar, but seems to have backed off that once it was calculated that it is receiving 3000+lbs per stick. Rockengineer (who I've read numerous posts of on this forum) posted that it is capable of way more than that, but didn't give a number. Does anyone know?

[rreidnauer]

Yes, the topic of this discussion has been going on in the member's section. To be perfectly frank, I don't even know why it's being discussed. (over and over again) The LHBA butt & pass method is a time proven design. It's not something that's just come to be last week/month/year. As I said in the member's area thread, "proof is in the pudding." Take a look at the students' log home pages, ask around to those who have built and are living in their homes, what they think.

I too am just a student. I have nothing to gain by defending the LHBA method, unlike the many kithome contractors at LH0T1 that have nothing to loose by trying to get potential customers to turn away from considering building their own homes.

[fishandfly]

I don't see it that way at all.

If you are building a 4 foot retaining wall it needs to be engineered.

The fact that I can show an inspector dozens or hundreds of retaining walls built the same way (via pictures or in person) does not take away the requirement to have the wall engineered. Now, I understand that it is likely that an engineer will draw up a very overbuilt wall, sign it and hand it to you, but I believe he would also be willing to provide the mathematical backing for his design being legit.

Is there no mathematical backing for the rebar?

Can you build a ten-story building with this method? Likely not because the load bearing down on the bottom course of rebar would be more than it could handle. So what math backs up the point where the load is more than it can bear?

[StressMan79]

I am an aerospace (stress) engineer, and not well versed in the mild steel rebar is composed of, but a conservative estimate for the yeild strength of rebar steel is ~30ksi. The area (of 1/2 inch rebar) is just under .2 in square. The lengths are so short as not to be buckling critical, but are more like short struts, so are gross yeilding critical. That gives a per rebar capability of 5900 lbf. This is more than accepatable.

Finally--note that IF the rebar did yeild, and the logs settled on the bottom courses or two, the bar would still be connected, just yeilded. Mild steel has a very large yeild curve. The lateral movement between rows would still be constrained, and the home, though the box may be fractions of an inch shorter, would not be catastrophically lost, and no further reductions would then be possible, as the logs would be completely seasoned and resting on each other, with the rebar still in place.

This is mute, as I showed above, the capability is roughly tice the required amount.

I have seen many B&P homes and if they had a glaring structural issue, they would have fallen down by now. As they are, they have not. "As Rod says above, the proof is in the pudding."

-Peter

[GT.]

There are hundreds of beautiful log home building systems, and all of them live in peace together....
I think the problem is not in building system itself, but mostly because LHBA opposes kit building practices - one is building a kit, onother is selling it, and third is building a log home. If any problem happens, no one wants to be accountable and point finger at each other.
They just cant't bear with it ...

[Kola]

Hmmm. I can't say I actually know the numbers you are looking for, fishandfly...than again I am not a numbers guy anyways.

Honestly, I do not care how many pounds are exerted on the rebar nor do I care how cosine angles are applied when spitting watermelon seeds. The majority of LHBA loghomes are built with wet stamped engineered plans and have stood up to the county code requirements all over the world without the numbers you are looking for.

To my knowledge, there has not been one LHBA loghome that couldn't pass building requirements. LHBA homes are probally one of the strongest structures built. Compare them to a "permit and code compliant" traditional stick home and its no match. With or without "the numbers" LHBA homes are structually sound...end of story.

If anyone has pictures and proof of a LHBA loghome that collapsed or any info on a LHBA loghome blueprint that was rejected, I would love to see them.

btw, I am still a bit leery about this so-called "Montana Mike" from Georgia.

I am not going to comment on this topic anymore as it will only lead to disharmony on the LHBA Forum and invite the lhoti folks over here. I have no use for them. Their game is to question something, then demand that it be proven. When any info is presented to them, they either reject it (for no apparent reason) or jump onto another topic. It is a one-sided "jump-thru-the hoop" game . They have no real interest and no real intention to be enlightened. Their ONLY intention is to discourage people from building their own loghomes. It's an insecurity issue on their part and it is quite easy to see...yet they continue their silly anticswhich directly hurts them and their business members... and more importantly, sends the truely interested folks back our way. :)

People have a choice: to become slaves of a 30 year mortgage and have "professional" log builders build them a home or you can DIY. LHBA folks have built..and will continue to build their own loghomes...and it really doesn't matter what the clowns and "experts" say. "Stecklers Sticklers" and his Lhoti Traveling Circus are nothing but a little group of folks who talk nonsense about "exploding rebar" and "buying engineer stamps."

To be brutally honest, I hope this thread is locked or deleted.

Kola

[Klapton]

Before there were codes, or people who profited from them (ICC), people built lots of homes.



The people who built them either built it for themselves, or to sell to others. Those who built for themselves were motivated to build strong buildings for their own safety.



?People who built to seel to others had their professional reputations to uphold. As a result, houses were usually STRONGER back then than they are now.



Now that we have codes, we have a minimum standard of "barely fit to live in" that nearly everyone builds to. So we have "McMansions" that have all the bells and whistles to make them look nice, but underneath they are the same minimum-standard junk. They are essentially Yugos with leather seats and chrome trim.



It's true that most places require engineer stamps for log homes. Those engineers who stamp them, like professional builders of old, stake their professional reputations on those numbers being accurate.



And yes, Richard Rock could post his numbers over at LHOTI or ICC if he wanted to. He chooses not to.? Engineers are extremely nitpicky folks (rightfully and necessarily so). So why would he want to post his work in a hostile environment and invite other nitpickers to criticize his work? If you are not comfortable building a retaining wall without hiring an engineer, but all means, hire one. I'll just build mine "the right way" and probably over-build it, just to be sure, and save the money.



I'm still looking for land, but one of my high priorities in my search are places that have minimal or non-existant building codes. Why? Because I don't need them. Everything I build will be FAR above code, so why should I pay for someone to come nitpick my work? And what gives them the right to tell me what to do with my own body / land / safety anyway? No... I'll take freedom and liberty, and trust myself rather than trust government bureaucrats. But most likely, should you choose to take the LHBA course and/or build a butt and pass log home, the choice of whether or not to have your home engineered will probably be made for you. So, no worries. Assuming you build it correctly, your butt and pass log home will be around LONG after you and I are both dead.

[kyle]

Can you build a ten-story building with this method? Likely not because the load bearing down on the bottom course of rebar would be more than it could handle. So what math backs up the point where the load is more than it can bear?

Can you show me any 10 story tall log home using any method???

[Klapton]

Norwegian stave kirches are timber structures, built without engineering or building codes, that approach 10 stories.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcel-more/236905522/

Russian churches like this one were built with logs, and most of them didn't even use nails! (Oh yeah... and no building codes or engineer stamps either).

http://www.uoregon.edu/~kimball/images/kiji.transfiguration.jpg

[kyle]

Yes I knew of them but they are post and beam construction. I was referencing a true log home structure. And a kit home where they build a stick frame home with log accents as siding doesnt count either.

Edit...sorry Klapton I didn't see your second photo of the church. Thats what I'm talking about...a true log structure standing after all those years 10 stories tall!

[rreidnauer]

I don't see it that way at all.

Is there no mathematical backing for the rebar?

Can you build a ten-story building with this method? Likely not because the load bearing down on the bottom course of rebar would be more than it could handle. So what math backs up the point where the load is more than it can bear?
I can understand your concerns. And I'm sure the numbers do exist. (I personally don't have them, but you can be fairly certain an engineer isn't going to put his stamp on the plans without them) From the way I understand it, Richard Rock was flamed for defending the building method. I can not blame him for walking away from the mob, nor not providing them with his numbers. It's exactly what they want over there. Something, anything to attack, no matter what is presented.

You're probably right, ten stories isn't likely possible with two foot spacing. But then I doubt a kithome could either, not that anyone would even want to build something like that. Realistically, nobody is building much higher than 25 feet. Most codes prevent you from going higher than 30~35 feet. It's a mute point suggesting 10 stories, but I understood the purpose of your example, never the less. I know there are several approved plans for high seismic areas that did require closer spacing for the first floor. It's all part of the engineering, but I can't blame anyone for not sharing their numbers, only to have someone try to use it against them.

[fishandfly]

For those of you who could care less about ever having numbers back up the most basic assumption of your home, you are simply a different personality from mine. An engineers stamp is great, but I would not hire an engineer who would tell me he winged it. Nor would I pay someone to fix my car without understanding what was wrong with it and what they did to fix it.

Stressman,
Thank you very much for posting the number. Am I correct that it is a very dynamic equation? For instance, if the span increases does the strength significantly decrease?

I have searched the internet high and low for an equation or test examples. I couldn't find any concerning compression.

[rreidnauer]

For those of you who could care less about ever having numbers back up the most basic assumption of your home, you are simply a different personality from mine. An engineers stamp is great, but I would not hire an engineer who would tell me he winged it. Nor would I pay someone to fix my car without understanding what was wrong with it and what they did to fix it.
I don't know why you would assume an engineer is "winging it." That simply doesn't make sense. Even if an engineer told the average person the numbers he/she used, it wouldn't mean much anyhow. Taking your example, it'd be like asking the mechanic fixing the car, what is the tensile strength of the bolt holding in the part. Nobody does that. I believe this is the primary reason you received responses that they are not interested in the numbers themselves, it's not just a blind ignorance. It's the whole reason we pay for an engineer. (or any other person of specialized expertise for that matter)

[Kola]

I deleted my response. IMO, this is a waste of time and energy. I got better things to do. :)


Kola

[Yuhjn]

Me thinks Mister fishandfly is just trolling. (maybe time to check IP addy)

Kola

Yup he's a troll. Kola has smelled him out.

I'm actually shocked that Ellsworth has let this thread go for this long.

[Kola]

Craig!!!

LOL!

[StressMan79]

Once the columns become buckling critical (say at roughly 10-20 L/D (slenderness ratio)) they are no longer struts, but columns. Euler derived the column buckling (elastic) equations several thousand years back, and the final answer for the Euler curve gives that the critical load is proportional to the inverse of the length, squared. (you can look this up in Shigley, or online).

Oh, finally, the Euler curve is only good for long columns. Short columns/struts are governed by the johnson portion of the "johnson-euler" curve. My equation was a simplfication but is fairly accurate for these 2 inch (or less) gaps.

However, the equation is for columns acting alone. They certainly do not. They also tend to counteract eachother, once any buckling occurs. Therefore the analysis I gave before was a first order conservative simplifcation. In short, I would say (in the aerospace stress community) that the rebar is good by inspection, so long as the installation was done correctly. In this case, that would only mean that the gaps were't outrageously large or the lower log was counterdrilled, or the rebar was pointy. These things are all warned against in the class, so I would say that the course teaches the "approved installation procedure" and that anyone interested in building thier own house tends to do so as taught.

"Good by inspection" is often done in aerospace. For instance "Lee Plugs" which hold in hydraulc pressure are never analyzed, but just used and installed as they have always been done. This is only allowed, b/c Lee made his plugs before they were regulated out of existence. They could not be certified as the regs are now. In short, I am an engineer, and have absolutely no qualms about building with this method. I'll leave it at that.

Peter Andersen
Boeing 787 Systems Stress Analyst

[Yuhjn]

Sorry Kola I've got the "I cant edit my post" bug or I would follow your lead and remove my last post :)

Had I seen you change your mind I would not have responded. Heh, I hate that bug it's burnt me a few times now :)

[Kola]

Peter,
and all this time I thought your username was selected because you were stressed out!

Craig, no prob, some things are meant to be!

Kola

[clairenj]

well, thanks for the comic relief after a very stupid day! And Klapton, awesome comeback with those photos. I have used several like them myself when I need to explain( again)
Rod, you're trying too hard. I think it's deaf ears. now to get a real belly laugh I would love to hear Dave on all this.

[rreidnauer]

Rod, you're trying too hard. I think it's deaf ears.
Well, I like to take the benefit of doubt, and give all a fair chance. I much rather counter concerns than taking it down a notch. (there's already a log home website for that) ;o) Like I said, I have nothing to gain. I'm just making conversation.

[Kola]

Rod, on the avatar pic, you keep missing the dang rebar!!!!!

Focus, brother, FOCUS!

Kola :)

[rreidnauer]

That's why it never goes in any further. I'm just working on building up my biceps. 8^P

[fishandfly]

What is wrong with those of you who consider a question to be trolling? Asking valid questions and being responded to by a bunch of people eager to utilize their cocky internet personality firmly grounded in complete anonymity is laughable.

I asked a legit question. It was a question about a specific issue. All but one of the responders have simply responded by saying either that they don't care or don't know and don't need to know.

Thank you to the ONE and only person who actually added to this thread, making it worthwhile reading.

It is not my intent to solely attend a 2 day class and build a house step by step the way that they tell me to without understanding the reason, logic, and engineering behind each step.

-----

[Timber]

fishandfly wrote:
Can you build a ten-story building with this method? Likely not because the load bearing down on the bottom course of rebar would be more than it could handle. So what math backs up the point where the load is more than it can bear?
kyle wrote:
Can you show me any 10 story tall log home using any method???
Timber writes
Sounds like a Fish story to me LOL How did you guys know i wanted a 10 story log home? Rock engineer ing is working on it as i speak-cause he knows i want one too lol

[rreidnauer]

Well, I'm glad you found the information you were seeking fishandfly, but also a bit miffed that my explanation as to why many of us don't have the specific answer you sought, was received as cocky and worthless. But enough about that. If you are seeking these specific numbers, you must be an engineer, yes? I'll assume you want to calculate for yourself, the structural integrity obtainable with this building method. I look forward to your findings and hope you'll post them here. Please keep in mind, I'm not interested in mathematical equations and formulas. Much simpler findings like "able to withstand loads XX percent above design" is good enough for the majority of us.

[Klapton]

It is not my intent to solely attend a 2 day class and build a house step by step the way that they tell me to without understanding the reason, logic, and engineering behind each step.

Please don't misunderstand my position. Reason and Logic are two things that I am competent to evaluate. (I'm a database programmer, so I use these two all the time.) Engineering is something or which I have to trust someone else. Reason and Logic tell me that if I start with plans that have sound engineering (I purchased one of the LHBA "stock plans" which I will be tweaking to suit my needs) and build it correctly, that I will be safe -- VERY safe, actually. If I build somewhere where Big Brother requires documentation of that engineering, I will pay what I must, and provide it for them. (Mr. Rock has his calculations for the LHBA stock plans available at very reasonable prices for members).

But yes, his word, the quality and experience of the LHBA instructors, seeing Skip's house with my own eyes, and the evidence of hundreds or thousands of other homes built this way are sufficient for me. The two-day course does indeed show the Reason and the Logic of the building method. Specific engineering questions are often answered by Mr. Rock in the member's forum, when it is possible to answer a question without requiring calculations etc. And if one needs specific engineering work done, he does it at reasonable rates for members in states where his stamp is valid.

I'm sorry I cannot provide specific data about stresses on rebar. I apologize if my answers seemed flippant. If you should decide to take the course and become a member, all these services will be available. Otherwise, they are still available. The architect who did the LHBA stock plans sells his work in other places on the web. There are other engineers capable of doing the needed calculations for you. If you don't want to spend the cash to join LHBA and take the course, this would be another way to accquire the info you seek.

If you are indeed seriously interested in building a hand-crafted butt and pass log home in the "skip style" then you will avail yourself of one of those opportunities. If not, then you are indeed merely a troll who came here to start trouble. I hope that isn't the case. I hope your questions will be answered to your satisfaction, and you make the best decision for yourself.

Good luck in whatever project you undertake.

[greenthumb]

edit: Nevermind... just take the class my friend. ; )

[fishandfly]

Thanks again everyone for all the help. I believe I've seen the full scope of people, from those who think questions that involve numbers are evil ?? to the one person who actually had an answer to the question. 95% of the responders made the thread entertaining and 5% of the responders made it intelligent and informative.

Here's the informative response again:

rebar strength

I am an aerospace (stress) engineer, and not well versed in the mild steel rebar is composed of, but a conservative estimate for the yeild strength of rebar steel is ~30ksi. The area (of 1/2 inch rebar) is just under .2 in square. The lengths are so short as not to be buckling critical, but are more like short struts, so are gross yeilding critical. That gives a per rebar capability of 5900 lbf. This is more than accepatable.

Finally--note that IF the rebar did yeild, and the logs settled on the bottom courses or two, the bar would still be connected, just yeilded. Mild steel has a very large yield curve. The lateral movement between rows would still be constrained, and the home, though the box may be fractions of an inch shorter, would not be catastrophically lost, and no further reductions would then be possible, as the logs would be completely seasoned and resting on each other, with the rebar still in place.

This is mute, as I showed above, the capability is roughly twice the required amount.

I have seen many B&P homes and if they had a glaring structural issue, they would have fallen down by now. As they are, they have not. "As Rod says above, the proof is in the pudding."

-Peter


---

[loghomefun]

It makes perfect sense.



You want to understand the math involved, on a system that you do not even know how to build.



You want information for free, that the rest of us paid money to get.



You are listening to the kit builders over on that kit log home forum, as they talk trash about their competition.



You think a private Association has some duty to answer the biased questions of a bunch of whiney kit guys, and a self appointed Doctor-know-it-all.



Yeah, that all makes perfect sense.



And besides, butt and pass meets code or it would not be getting approved http://www.loghomebuilders.org/log-homes-and-building-codes Rod's the proof is in the pudding comment is not just about the fact that the homes are are all standing tall and proud, it is about the fact the plans are being approved all over the states.



The plans would not be approved if the system did not meet code, especially in places like Cali-forn-ia. The Association's engineer must know his stuff, or he would not be so successful at helping those home get approval. So I agree, I don't have to be an engineer to see that the proof is in the pudding.



Doug

[StressMan79]

I skimmed the LHOTI thread that led you (presubably) to ask here. LHOTI is definitely skewed towards "kit"/"professional" builders. There were some derogatory posts there as well. If you are indeed genuine, I will reiterate Yuhjn's plea: "Take the class."

Any/all questions are welcomed in the members section--we are sure that members aren't trying to "just stir things up."

However, I do think that some good came of this. We have seen the awe that Skip's ranch inspires. Once you see it for yourself, there is no chance you'd question if Rebar can be used as a structural (compressive) element. If you ever get out the the PacNW (possibly to take the class), I can point you towards many other examples of homes that successfully use this design. As I said before, if I were analyzing a home (I'm not a PE, full disclosure), I'd use similarity to sign off on the rebar detail. You can use previous use as reasoning for using a certain design. As I mentioned above, we do this all the time in Aerospace. This is important, as loss of two hydraulic systems could result in loss of an airplane. We don't take this lightly, and we use several elements in every valve manifold that are safety critical, and are not analyzed at all. I have not heard of any failures of Lee Plugs in service. This is similar to the rebar used in pinning. I plan on installing as taught and not thinking about it further.

Most members are satisfied with this approach. Like I said, skip's huge home kind of makes you a believer..

Oh one more thing, simply showing "better than code" IS acceptable. You don't need to quantify absolutely everything. For instance, if you have an aluminum bracket (of some unknown strength) that needs to be replaced by steel for some reason. Aerospace steel is generally 2.5x as strong as aluminum. You may not have access to the original analysis, but assuming that the aluminum bracket passed code (in my case, CFR part 25), the steel will be better, end of discussion.

Anyway, I hope that you were only a curious soul, not a "troll" as has been suggested by my peers. Oh, and paying for the class is not "necessary" as they don't teach you anything that couldn't be learned from places on the internet. However, you will not miss anything if you do take the class. If you miss something, you could end up spending much more at best or be dead under a pile o logs at worst. If you don't agree that the class is not worth it, just ask--you'll get your money back. No kit builder will make that guarantee.

[Yuhjn]

Fish if you are indeed interested then I appoligize for any negative comments I made. The LHBA is happy and excited to explain our techniques to anyone honestly interested.

On the other hand we're constantly assulted by kit manufactures who's business is being undermined by our superior techniques and do it yourself approach. As a result we get lots of posts here by people just trying to cause trouble.

In any event I'm glad you feel good about what you've learned here. Of course that's really just the beginning. Taking the class is the defining moment.

[Kola]

LHBA has rules.
Not everyone gets accepted to take the class.

Kola

[fishandfly]

LHBA has rules.
Not everyone gets accepted to take the class.

Kola

Are you suggesting that asking questions about the rebar's compressibility is grounds for not being accepted into the class?

Considering the fact that your previous posts have called for this thread to be deleted by moderators, that neither you nor anyone else should care about any numbers, as well as your general attitude of response I assume your answer is yes. Please expound on why you continue to feel that you are being attacked.


--

Next, Thank you to those of you who have addressed why there have been numerous comments which have not addressed the question I had. I have read through your entire (yes, entire) archive of threads in the general section. I've read every article and every FAQ. This issue was not addressed, and since it is logical to me that the entire force of the home does bear down on the bottom course of rebar, and the fact that no one seems to have any sign of settling, I was left wanting more information. I am quite glad that rebar has the ability to support 5000+ pounds.

I'm not one for blind trust in any system. I'm one for researching every potential issue and design element to death before I proceed. Next time I have a question I'll add a tag-line that says: Please don't respond unless you actually can bring information or lead me to better understanding the issue.

[Klapton]

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/who-not-allowed-join-association-and-attend-our-class


There are 3 groups of people are not allowed in our Association and classes:

1) Kit builders, 'handcrafters,' or anyone associated with the kit log home industry in any capacity, are not allowed to join our Association or attend our class. There are no exceptions.

2) Anyone who has already started building their log home. If someone has started building, by the time they get to the class they have usually already made many mistakes that can't be corrected.

3) Very specifically we do not allow building inspectors or planning department workers to take our class. At the class we explain perfectly legal tactics, techniques and loopholes that make the construction process easier and less expensive when it comes to permits and inspections -- we do not want to give the enemy any ammunition.

Anyone who belongs to one of the above groups, and tries to join our Association, will have their lifetime membership status revoked, member benefits will cease, no refunds will be issued, and the individual agrees to pay a $50,000 penalty.


I think Kola suspects that you might fit into one of these groups.

[Yuhjn]

and since it is logical to me that the entire force of the home does bear down on the bottom course of rebar,


Actually that's incorrect. The "entire weight of the home" does not rest on the lowest course of rebar. In fact 1/2 the weight of your roof is supported by the RPSL which sit flat on the foundation. Additionally the weight of the 3 or more RPSL's do not rest on rebar either. Also the ridgepole itself is not supported at all by the walls and therefore not the lowest course of rebar. Finally if you use purlins and purlin support columns even less of the roof rests on the walls.

[Klapton]

and since it is logical to me that the entire force of the home does bear down on the bottom course of rebar,


Actually that's incorrect. The "entire weight of the home" does not rest on the lowest course of rebar. In fact 1/2 the weight of your roof is supported by the RPSL which sit flat on the foundation. Additionally the weight of the 3 or more RPSL's do not rest on rebar either. Also the ridgepole itself is not supported at all by the walls and therefore not the lowest course of rebar. Finally if you use purlins and purlin support columns even less of the roof rests on the walls.
I would add that the bottom course of logs sits directly on the foundation (termite guard, builder's felt, and a pressure treated board in between, actually). The rebar that sticks up out of the foundation is there to prevent the log box from jumping off the foundation in case of earthquake. The downward load of the log walls is ordinary gravity (I don't know how engineers describe this.)

[adubar]

I'm looking forward to the class and have signed up for the email alert, but I would like to hear an answer to this issue. Simply put it is that the engineers have calculated out that the bottom course of rebar is receiving 3000lbs of force each when spaced at 2ft.

fishandfly,
I apologize if you feel frustrated by my fellow travelers.

So, to the heart of your last posting, in my experience all the members I know are rather empirical. None would take anything at face value. The designs have been fetted by professional engineers. And each builder to my knowledge that has either made their own designs or altered the offerings from the association have always had a professional engineer with experience in these types of structures review them.

In many ways, your question is like asking a stick frame builder what the deflection is for a specific joist supporting the floor of a second story. To build the house, they really don't need to know. The just need to know that they must use "X" type of material, with "x" dimensions, and cut it "X" long and support it with "x."
They deffinately will not, most likely, remotely know what the yield stength is for the joist, let alone ever heard of it. they trust that both the architect and PE were on the same page when the design was put up for sale in the new home plans catalog.

However, the calculations can be made, but first we need to know the type of structure, how the joist is attached or located, what the joist is made out of (material), its span, fixed or unfixed at ends, is there other support & etc. For me to quote out of "Strengths of materials" really doesn't tell me a whole lot about a specific application--all it can do is give me a general understanding about a material given preset variables. My understanding about the material alone can help me in deciding if I am going to use it in a simple application as can be deduced by a materials sheet, but I would need to do analysis of the specific more complex application to come up with a reasoned assumption. I would pay an engineer to do this for me(as it would take me quite a bit of time getting back into the math) and once he was done, I probably would not care what numbers he came up with so long as the design was engineered to accepted standards. To prove this, he/she puts his/her name on it and carries liability vouching for the soundness of the design.

Conversely, if I simply tell you what the deflection is without telling you about the application and systems supporting it, it really doesn't mean anything--other than if the joist could move 12" up or down and still be in code! I still would not have given information for you to fully understand the "why." In short, it would be quite meaningless.

I think you got a close answer to your general question, but if you really want to know what is going on with the rebar and the stresses involved, you really need to understand the systems and structure (design--application) in which it is being used. You can ask a qualified engineer (someone who has designed using LHBA's preferred methods and materials) or you can take the class and contact one of the PE's that members have worked with over the years.


Best of luck.

-Andrew

[GENE13]

There has been a thread going on at LHOTI.com concerning the butt and pass. An issue that has come up is concerning the load that is being placed on the rebar.
http://www.lhoti.com/board/showthread.php?t=2036

Half way through, a discussion started on an engineering forum as well:
http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002067;p=1#000 011

I'm looking forward to the class and have signed up for the email alert, but I would like to hear an answer to this issue. Simply put it is that the engineers have calculated out that the bottom course of rebar is receiving 3000lbs of force each when spaced at 2ft.

A LHBA guy who is an engineer posted that it was capable of 500 lbs per rebar, but seems to have backed off that once it was calculated that it is receiving 3000+lbs per stick. Rockengineer (who I've read numerous posts of on this forum) posted that it is capable of way more than that, but didn't give a number.

Does anyone know?

Fish, #4 rebar minimal ST "tensile strength" would be 4000 ksi (1000 psi). From the above statement (Simply put it is that the engineers have calculated out that the bottom course of rebar is receiving 3000lbs of force each when spaced at 2ft. ) In simple terms, then that's 25% stronger than needed, "MINIMAL". In reality there are many other factors as well, Ductility being a very important one, ductility is the extent to which materials can be deformed plastically without fracture. Rebar is capable of absorbing considerably greater energy when deformed, this would be very important during an earthquake for example.
Almost all strength test are done through a company called ASTM, "originally known as the American Society for Testing and Materials" they are the ones that set the standards that everyone follows in some degree or another. ASTM has a standard set for that bolt your mechanic is using that goes into your engine mount. The mechanic doesn't need to know every how or why he should use that particular bolt, it doesn't matter, he is following the guide "shop manual" that says this is what you must use. There is certain trust factor involved as you can see, unless you trust yourself to run all the test needed to meet every requirement out there. The rebar used in the building of our log homes have far exceeded its structural use, we have thousands of ducumented homes that have aged the test of time.

Also, the bottom logs are not absorbing all the weight, the foundation is. And as far as roll out or pitch causing the structure to fail, it would almost be impossible even if you tried, unless you was shooting to beat out the leaning tower of pizza, LOL.

Good question Fish, when you go to class the instructors will be able to answer all your questions, and the hows and whys. When you leave there you'll see it's not rocket science, and you'll be glad you went................... :-)

[fishandfly]

Thanks for more good info.

By the way for anyone who is not watching the discussion at LHOTI, Rock Engineer just capstone'd the entire thread. Definitely worth a read.

[coastal1]

"It will get you back in long after you wish you weren't out there" - Old timers commenting on the seaworthiness of the Simmons Sea Skiff.


After reading this thread a thought comes to mind about a story Ellsworth told during my class. It was about Skip hitting his home with the bull dozer to prove a point about his structure. If I remember the story correctly it was where the sliding glass doors are used as windows. I know it wasn't a vertical load but it sure was a great side load and testament to the strength of this building process.

[RockEngineer]

Here is what I finally put on LHOTI to answer the question. For a non-problem it was getting way out of hand with misinformation.

When doing engineering there two areas of items that need to be accounted for.
1. Life/Safety. These are items that if they fail would cause a catastrophic failure of the structure. These must be accounted for and need to have the code defined factors of safety.
2. Serviceability. Items that will not make the structue fail but make it less attractive or are inconvienient. Bouncy floor, sticking doors, binding or cracked windows.

Ask the question, what happens IF the rebar didn't hold up the load as the logs shrink? You start out with logs touching logs. The only time the rebar takes vertical load is when the logs shrink. The worst that could happen is the structure would settle until your get wood touching wood again. No catastrophic failure. IF the wall settles you would start having serviceability problems with sticking doors, cracked windows and uneven floors. Just like the old hand crafted log homes had before the builders started using jacking screws, slip joints on window bucks and large spaces above the doors and windows. Serviceablity requirements are adopted to solve problems that have a history. There is no history of this method settling over the last 30 years thus no serviceability requirement.

All load paths are accounted for. All beams, girders, joists are sized per NDS standards. All horizontal loads are taken out in wood/rebar single shear calculated using NDS standards. If you have high loads, you are welcome to use rebar closer together or larger diameter. It all depends on what the engineer calculates is required due to the loads or is comfortable with.

The rebar is unsupported only for small distances which are too short to buckle as columns.

I know some of you still want numbers for the rebar. The closest numbers you will find published to use would be the withdrawl loads for 1/2" lag screws plus bearing on the end of the rebar. This number runs at about 2000 lb. Of course the withdrawl and bearing loads in NDS are based on minimums with factors of safety for life/safety. My personal experience is that the rebar holds more than 3500 lb before you get settling. Window and door bucks are also load bearing unlike the hand crafted. Accept that or not, that's your choice or do your own experiments. Like I said, since it is just a servicability and not a life/safety issue the rebar bearing strength number is not critical for the structural engineering.

[Susan]

Hmmm.
I am not going to comment on this topic anymore as it will only lead to disharmony on the LHBA Forum and invite the lhoti folks over here. I have no use for them. Their game is to question something, then demand that it be proven. When any info is presented to them, they either reject it (for no apparent reason) or jump onto another topic. It is a one-sided "jump-thru-the hoop" game . They have no real interest and no real intention to be enlightened. Their ONLY intention is to discourage people from building their own loghomes. It's an insecurity issue on their part and it is quite easy to see...yet they continue their silly anticswhich directly hurts them and their business members... and more importantly, sends the truely interested folks back our way. :)

People have a choice: to become slaves of a 30 year mortgage and have "professional" log builders build them a home or you can DIY. LHBA folks have built..and will continue to build their own loghomes...and it really doesn't matter what the clowns and "experts" say. "Stecklers Sticklers" and his Lhoti Traveling Circus are nothing but a little group of folks who talk nonsense about "exploding rebar" and "buying engineer stamps."

Kola





You truly are an 'amazing' personality.

[GENE13]

[quote=fishandfly]There has been a thread going on at LHOTI.com concerning the butt and pass. An issue that has come up is concerning the load that is being placed on the rebar.
http://www.lhoti.com/board/showthread.php?t=2036

Half way through, a discussion started on an engineering forum as well:
http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002067;p=1#000 011

I'm looking forward to the class and have signed up for the email alert, but I would like to hear an answer to this issue. Simply put it is that the engineers have calculated out that the bottom course of rebar is receiving 3000lbs of force each when spaced at 2ft.

A LHBA guy who is an engineer posted that it was capable of 500 lbs per rebar, but seems to have backed off that once it was calculated that it is receiving 3000+lbs per stick. Rockengineer (who I've read numerous posts of on this forum) posted that it is capable of way more than that, but didn't give a number.

Does anyone know?


ps. In my earlier thread above, which for some reason I can't edit??? Change the 4000 ksi to 4000 psi ,"4000 psi = 4 ksi" I meant to say 4000 psi as compared to the 3000 psi that you mentioned. My Old timers and the non-use of my glasses, in addition to doing this at work caused me to error, enough excuses? Sorry, but I think you understood all the same if I'm not mistaken. Hope to see ya as a regular here............. :-)

[rocklock]

I am the guy that stated the thing about 500 pounds per rebar.
I are a engineer (a poor joke) although not a structural engineer as is Mr. Rock.
I used the simple fact that if you apply 500 pounds of force down then it will resist that same force...
If you use 16 rebar then the combined resistance will be 8000 pounds and its not in psi at all...
In fact, Mr. Rock has a figure that a lag screw has something like 5600 pounds of resistance to being pulled out hence the same resistance going the other way... for each rebar. Doing the math you get about 90,000 pounds.
But Mr. Rock has a good point... There are many ways to question if you don't like something... Something like casting pearls among swine. Do I mean the comparison literately?, you guess.
I am reminded of the old joke, the first lier never wins.
I coud go on, but I have something to build and life is too short to deal with some folks...

[softorchestra]

I deleted my response. IMO, this is a waste of time and energy. I got better things to do. :)


KolaYes, you have better things to do that you might know how to do. But when you have to resort to belittling a person for asking about a valid engineering question, grasping for straws, yes you probably do have better things to do.

I have no dog in this fight, and was defending the style on LHOTI, but it seems the majority of folks here just do not have the actual numbers, and the answers in most of the responses are pretty childish, just like the FAQ that doesn't allow anyone involved in log home building to take the course. While I don't approve of the way the admins handle LHOTI, there is no reason that an intelligent conversation couldn't be held without all the sarcasm.

The bottom line is that I can't build in my area without having a engineer stamp the plans. Asking a simple question as to how the numbers are calculated for that purpose is not trolling, IMO.

I have seen very little actual data here, You certainly are not an engineer, nor are you even rational with your flippant answers. It is obvious you do not have the actual numbers yourself. In this case, it might be best to let someone who does have them, like Richard Rock, he has come the closest to providing actual numbers. Thank you Richard for providing those numbers in a rational, and professional manor.

The data which StessMan is providing is a "conservative estimate". My building department will not take a "conservative estimate" though, they want actual numbers, with the calculations to back it up.

There is nothing wrong with believing that this method of building is strong enough, but believing doesn't get anyone a building permit in my area. I do believe it is strong enough, and I believe an engineer will sign off on it, but that engineer will need to provide the building department the numbers. Your answer are telling me to seek out an engineer that does know the actual data, in this thread Richard Rock is the only person that seems to have the knowledge to answer fishandfly's question. You could have simply said you do NOT know, because clearly you do not know enough to convince a building department that the construction can pass their requirements.

There's a big difference in explaining this to a building department, rather than building models with dowels. I could build models all day long, and I could scribe and dovetail the joinery on that very model if I wanted. Your model is just that, a model. Rather I spent my time building a workbench using mortise and tenon joinery with drawbored pins holding it together. It is built out of solid hard maple and is stout, in fact it is stout enough that I believe I can build a home with it. Sure, it would be easier to find old cabinets that were ripped out of a home being demolished and use those, but I can handcraft those cabinets with hand cut joinery myself, on the very workbench I built. That's a skill you don't find in the recycle centers.

Again, thanks to Richard Rock for the info he provided here as well as on LHOTI. You are one of the only person that was respectable enough to provide a reasonable answer without having to insult the people asking the question. That goes a long way in establishing yourself as a creditable source of information, unlike most of the responses in this thread.

Cheers,
Alan

[Mark OBrien]

For someone not having a dog in this fight there sure seems to be a lot barking going on. This is why Ellsworth and others have recommended letting the people on LHOTI play by themselves and not join in. Somebody comes along who hasn't been exposed to the vitriol and BS that has been slung on that site and right away puffs out their chest and makes comments that are better left to theirself. There is freedom of expression allowed on this site, but it should be knowledgeable and informed, not shooting from the hip and the lip.

[StressMan79]

Alan,

The reason for the defensive replies is largely due to the collective feeling that the method is sound and the perception that the LHBA is under undue scrutiny from some members of LHOTI. Whether or not this perception is reality is the subject of some debate, but we tend to err on the side that it is.

I don't know where you live, but Richard can put you in touch with engineers in many locatcions that are familiar with B&P method of building and required analysis for their signature. Anyway, if you have ever seen Skip's ranch (a huge home built from huge logs--3 stories high) built on rebar that may be (I'm not exactly sure if it is or not) at 4' centers (rather than the 2'
that is recommended now), and you can appreciate that the method is sound. Skip's home has stood for ~30 years and besides some weathering, it is none the worse for wear. I expect it will still be standing long after my children are dead and gone. I also expect my future home to do the same.

Anyway, a "conservative estimate" is what the calculations that richard gives is based on. The exact strength is never known, and there are factors that reduce the strength to "spec minimums." Depending on your county, an owner builder permit which basically wants a septic design is all that is required. IF you are building high, or with 3' diameter logs, you can put the rebar closer, no one will stop you from doing that. However, as I stated earlier, for homes of general aspect ratios, the rebar spacing can be signed off as "good by inspection."

-Peter
P.S. I hope you will forgive mine and other's indignant replies and peruse the other threads on this site. They are quite informative, and the points of view expressed by members and nonmemebers alike are very refreshing.

[rreidnauer]

The bottom line is that I can't build in my area without having a engineer stamp the plans. Asking a simple question as to how the numbers are calculated for that purpose is not trolling, IMO.

There is nothing wrong with believing that this method of building is strong enough, but believing doesn't get anyone a building permit in my area. I do believe it is strong enough, and I believe an engineer will sign off on it, but that engineer will need to provide the building department the numbers. Your answer are telling me to seek out an engineer that does know the actual data, in this thread Richard Rock is the only person that seems to have the knowledge to answer fishandfly's question. You could have simply said you do NOT know, because clearly you do not know enough to convince a building department that the construction can pass their requirements.
I contemplated whether I even wanted to reply to this again, as I achieved little by doing so before, and basically been told my replies were cocky and worthless, yet, I am trying to make a valid point. Mainly, I want to address two of your statements above. But first, I will do a bit of defending for Kola and LHBA. First, LHOTI is heckbent on putting down LHBA at any opportunity. So when someone comes over to LHBA to start questioning things, it's almost a certainty that it's to data-mine, and later twist statements around to try to put down LHBA again. We're not too keen on helping out those who will only be trying to rub our faces in it, so you can hopefully see why some of us become offstandish or wary when a situation like this occurs. Some handle it better than others. If Fishandfly is truly sincere and not a data-miner for LHOTI, then I truly wish him the best at succeeding and hope to see more of him here. As for Kola, yea, he's a bit rough around the edges, strong willed, and isn't shy about speaking his mind. He too, was a bit of a "problem" when he first showed up on LHBA. He (and a few others) felt all information provided by LHBA should be freely available to the public. But with time, he found why that doesn't happen here, he ended up taking the course (wish I could have been in that class) and now defends what he first fought against. We have many personalities in this association, and 99% of the time, you'll see that forum discussions are exceptionally civil. In fact, this is the best behaved forum I ever seen on the net. (with a piece of the credit also going to the moderators defusing discussions that go off course and could potentially turn ugly)

Now, back to the two points I wanted to remark on. First, Fishandfly wasn't asking how the numbers are calculated, he wanted the actual numbers themselves. And as I was trying to explain, unless he is an engineer who will be putting his own stamp on his own plans, the numbers are of no value. What will he do with the numbers? Are the numbers satisfactory or not? How would he know? Again, that's the purpose of hiring the engineer. It's up to him to make the call if it is satisfactory or not. Even if you told your hired engineer the numbers, he's not going to take your word on it. Please understand, it's not ignorance, it's simply not of importance to the homeowner.

The second part I wanted to address is, with the numbers quoted, the building department isn't going to accept it. In fact, even Richard Rock's stamped plans may be of no value in states other than where he is licensed. The values will need to be calculated and stamped by a local engineer. Certainly, you can't believe that a number quoted on an internet forum is going to be accepted by any building department, nor can you expect to receive your engineering for free. So this again goes back to the point I was repetively trying to stress, that the actual numbers are of no value to the general individual.

Please don't mistake my reply as belittling. (which can be easily mistaken on a forum) I am truly trying to make an effort to provide "real world" rational input. There is a tendancy of folks to overcomplicate/overthink things that don't need to be. (myself included) It's human nature. LHBA really does strive to keep things realistic for the average builder. I am merely trying to do the same.

[softorchestra]

DISCLAIMER: I'm a bit new to this particular web interface, so am having some growing pains in the LHBA foras

I DO NOT represent LHOTI, or do my views even coincide with the administration. I do not like the lack of freedom exhibited by the LHOTI admin(s). In fact, while I have been painted as one of the folks that have attacked the SkipE style, I am not and try to look at this from a realistic standpoint. I was skeptical of this style to begin with, but it is mostly because it is so secretive. I wish this information was freely distributed, because many of the other styles are and craftsmen discuss them freely all the time.

Partially, I can't help but think Skip caused all of this. It was Skip that decided to take on all log home builders, with the outlandish poetry which flows freely to the public. Had all the data you speak of been available for all to evaluate and judge as a whole, that would change this equation entirely.

I completely support the free exchange of information, and have fought and been a part of making the inet what it is, and I continue to fight for free exchange of information. Most log home craftsmen are willing to talk about their particular style, yet the LHBA isn't, so this is a sticking point against them.

I am COMPLETELY for DIY, and like to build things, and have quite an assortment of tools, both hand a power for wood, metal, and leather. I also own my own land, and have a design, which does not incorporate log walls. It is round log timber frame using SIPs for the skin. Still, I am not ready just yet...I could consider using the LHBA style, as I say, I am DIY...as it is I plan to DIY no matter what I do. The shell is all seconday, it's the inside that really matters anyway...

Safety is my primary concern for any log work, SkipE style included. Too many folks use poorly assembled gyn-poles trying to DIY.

(enough with the commentary/introductory, mainly wanted to point out that I do NOT speak for LHOTI or represent them, I have my own reasoning)

He too, was a bit of a "problem" when he first showed up on LHBA. He (and a few others) felt all information provided by LHBA should be freely available to the public.Oh, that gets him quite a bit of face with me, but I don't think I will change my position as he did. This information needs to be available and/or discussed in a rational manor, or it will continue to be plagued with the same "unknowns" forever. It is Skip's lashings at what appears to be ALL LOG CRAFTSMEN or anyone fabricating, milling, or even adding protection to a physical logs and/or timber, as EVIL. Then to retain the information and not allow them to attend the course is so humorous I just don't know what to say. Acting like a child is no excuse to act like a child.

Now, back to the two points I wanted to remark on. First, Fishandfly wasn't asking how the numbers are calculated, he wanted the actual numbers themselves. And as I was trying to explain, unless he is an engineer who will be putting his own stamp on his own plans, the numbers are of no value. What will he do with the numbers? Are the numbers satisfactory or not? How would he know?No, the numbers and/or how to derive them are important, to everyone, from an engineering aspect. Engineers as a whole need to sign off on their work. I don't have a choice, I need to get an engineer (NorCal, Kelseyville, CA to be exact) sign off. However it's valid to me that I be able to understand the numbers and/or that they make sense.

I agree the 10 story example doesn't make a lot of sense, However, it was also taken out of context in how fishandfly used it. Let's be fair to him, I have quite a bit of respect for him and he knows wood much better than any of you folks, in how it retains moisture, how it changes, and how to build with it...although he is not a log craftsman, he does build houses, so he knows and understands getting engineering stamps, both good and bad. I want to point out that he has earned a lot of credibility with me, the more I work wood and try to understand it. This is not just logs, this is all wood, this is building furniture, this is building cabinets, this is in deciding how to structure the floor and how to join it, so that I don't need to sand it in 3 years to get the warp out.

I can only build 35 feet max, and by adding a full basement I need to split that. Since I will use the basement as the shop/garage, I want it 10 feet tall. That means I need to deduct 5 feet from the max (half the basement height). It was difficult to get 3 stories (top is a lookout) and be able to fit it in 30 feet. But if you do the math, you only save minimal by making the basement 8', you can then build 31'. 8' ceiling are difficult to work with long timber, even 10' is limiting in some cases.

The second part I wanted to address is, with the numbers quoted, the building department isn't going to accept it. In fact, even Richard Rock's stamped plans may be of no value in states other than where he is licensed. The values will need to be calculated and stamped by a local engineer.Certainly, and I will tell you that myself. However, as the person who needs to get my plans engineered, it does matter to me that I can calculate how that is done so I can cover my own @$$. At the end of the day, I need to feel comfortable to live in it, not only for me but more importantly my family.

I am more than happy to discuss this stuff in a rational way, but the moment someone acts like a child I will be outta dodge so to speak, and I'll try to take as much content with me as I can. Because it is all of this information that matters, and the ability to share it is key for all of us. There is nothing wrong with being able to discuss something without a mob spiting all over 'ya...IMO, but what do I know...I've taken content off LHOTI on more than one occasion for the inability for the members to have the freedoms they deserve. It is about letting all folks voice their opinion, and a lot of folks still do not understand how the internet works, those dolts that just found computers a few years ago have given the biggest pains for all. This is especially true with tradesmen, like builders, most of whom never had computers until recent. Guys like me know how to use computers, but since I'm not a so-called "pro" I also have problems being accepted. I'm not looking for acceptance in all cases though, I just like to decide for myself what I do decide as being acceptable, and that is where the freedom 'thang kicks back in.

Cheers,
Alan

[Klapton]

There's a reason for "secrecy" when it comes to all those hard numbers, etc. You see, many of us here do NOT see building inspectors, the ICC folks, or other government bureaucrats as our friends. While they pass laws and code for our "safety", they also take away our freedom. Some of us sincerely believe that individuals have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies and property, as long as it harms no one else. And that includes making mistakes or doing dumb things. (It also includes stupid little things like how many electrical outlets I want in my bedroom, or how many inches from the floor they should be -- blah blah blah...)

This issue already bled over to ICC forums. Now, let me tell you MY interpretation of what ICC is, and how they operate. They write codes. They lobby governments to adopt those codes (and BUY them from ICC). By adopting those codes, they become law. Now individual citizens have to pay fees to their local government, basically to get ICC's permission to build what they want. And the individual citizen has NO CHOICE. They either build it THEIR way, or they don't get to build it. Isn't it nice to live in a "free country"?

So, the milled log folks divulged enough info to ICC for ICC to write codes for them now too. So now the kit builders have to pay protection money to build the way they see fit. I deliberately use mafia terms because it is NOT VOLUNTARY. If I build in a county where there are no building codes, I can still hire an engineer, use contractors who will exceed code (code is minimum standard junk anyway, right?)... I can do ALL those things without paying any fees to or getting permission from government or ICC. Isn't it nice to live in a free country?

So, there's the reason why government bureaucrats aren't allowed in LHBA. They are NOT our friends. They seek to control us, and take even more of our choices and property away from us by force. I know that sounds radical. But if you really think it through, that is exactly what they are doing.

As for information being freely available... There are countless places on the web where people have blogs describing how they built their BnP homes. Before I decided to take the class, this one ( http://www.paulkahle.com/logstep1.html ) was one of the ones that helped convince me this was legit. I emailed my brother in law, who has extensive construction experience, and asked his opinion as well. Paul shows most every step in his build. And it all made very good sense to me. (See my answer to Fishandfly earlier about "Logic and Reason").

Anyway... We have members who have built in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, so getting an engineers stamp for a butt and pass log home there is not a problem. And it is indeed legit engineering work with all the numbers any government bureaucrat there could possibly want. Your decision about BnP vs. other methods should be based on your own needs, wants, and desires. LHBA not only teaches how to build one right, but also helps people with the obligatory hoop-jumping required to get it done.

So, best of luck with whatever you decide. I do hope that, while my opinions are strong ones, and definitely NOT mainstream, I hope you don't interpret them as childish or rude. Like the great men who framed our Constitution, I have no love of government, nor do I trust it. If you REALLY want to read some rude, anti-government ranting, read Thomas Paine, hehe.

[StressMan79]

I'm glad that you don't represent any other parties, however, I'm done replying to you based on the following:


Partially, I can't help but think Skip caused all of this. It was Skip that decided to take on all log home builders, with the outlandish poetry which flows freely to the public. Had all the data you speak of been available for all to evaluate and judge as a whole, that would change this equation entirely.

I have quite a bit of respect for him and he knows wood much better than any of you folks, in how it retains moisture, how it changes, and how to build with it


1) Skip was the foremost proponent of feedom that I have ever encountered (indirectly as that may be)
2) I'm glad you respect fishandfly so highly. But you yourself stated that you are new to this forum. Therefore, comparing his skills to my comrades is a bit far fetched. I would not personally claim to be better/more knowledgable than him, but unless you are trying to use hyperbole I take issue with the group comparison. Anyway, I'm done commenting on your questions on this thread.

[softorchestra]

There's a reason for "secrecy" when it comes to all those hard numbers, etc. You see, many of us here do NOT see building inspectors, the ICC folks, or other government bureaucrats as our friends. While they pass laws and code for our "safety", they also take away our freedom. Some of us sincerely believe that individuals have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies and property, as long as it harms no one else. And that includes making mistakes or doing dumb things. (It also includes stupid little things like how many electrical outlets I want in my bedroom, or how many inches from the floor they should be -- blah blah blah...)This is humorous, and in many ways it is exactly like Richard Stallman saying that applying restrictions on free software is to prevent it from not remaining free. At the end of the day, this type of hypocrisy doesn't survive the test of time. GPLv3 is a case in point, until v4 comes out, and then v5...

I already own my property, and was I to go about it again, I might do it differently. You see, I am all from the freedom to build anything we want, even if it is not to code, as long as you own the property there should not be reason you can't build on it. Isn't that a part of the American dream? My property is in a location where others are around, and if I do build, I will need to either cough up the plans with stamp, or tear it down. But I mention I would do it different, I might try to find a more secluded piece of property and just build whatever I want, if I was to choice again.

The building department in the city I live (San Jose) wants home owners to apply for permits for any work with a value of over $500 is done to the home. This is a crock, and people should not be prevented from working on their homes. And they shouldn't have to pay a tariff to do so, and taxes do that over the long term. Luckily we are not reassessed in my area, but I was reassessed for $2000 in value for an office I built in my backyard, which was a shed. If I had finished it as an office, they would have charged me much more...So, if you do remodel they can reassess you...

This issue already bled over to ICC forums. Now, let me tell you MY interpretation of what ICC is, and how they operate. They write codes. They lobby governments to adopt those codes (and BUY them from ICC). By adopting those codes, they become law. Now individual citizens have to pay fees to their local government, basically to get ICC's permission to build what they want. And the individual citizen has NO CHOICE. They either build it THEIR way, or they don't get to build it. Isn't it nice to live in a "free country"?This is not how I see it. I saw him as going to a forum where he thought some engineers would be able to suggest how to come up with the numbers. You build a conspiracy theory on how the ICC is out to get you as well. It sounds like they're coming in to get you and haul you away to the funny farm any day now... This type of claim doesn't add credit to your side of the story, should there be a side in any of this.

So, the milled log folks divulged enough info to ICC for ICC to write codes for them now too. So now the kit builders have to pay protection money to build the way they see fit. I deliberately use mafia terms because it is NOT VOLUNTARY. If I build in a county where there are no building codes, I can still hire an engineer, use contractors who will exceed code (code is minimum standard junk anyway, right?)... I can do ALL those things without paying any fees to or getting permission from government or ICC. Isn't it nice to live in a free country?Absolutely, I love the freedom we have, and I can honestly say I learned to love this country the honest way...by living outside of it. Maybe all should go do that, so they can understand what our country is about. Even with the problems associated with it, such as building departments and codes, it is the best country in the world. Let us not forget that the way most of those codes and regulations got put in place was from buildings falling down, people being injured, earthquakes and other natural disasters such as flooding, hurricanes, etc...and some of that was from people trying to DIY. DIY people are the most likely to make mistakes in miscalculating things.

Another point is that I can't imagine that all folks building in this style go through and have actual engineering done, it seems there are a fair amount of folks that might have done this with the assumption they saw it and it looked valid, or other. If numbers were available, why be so protective of them? Again, seems to discredit the LHBA, IMO.

On LHOTI I tried to offer another means of securing the logs, either pipe or something else that could be tied to an actual stress number, if they didn't like rebar. To me it doesn't matter, I want to understand the building style because it is the lack of performing scribes that make it attractive to the masses. For the record, I am fully capable of scribing and notching corners, and I can forge my own slicks and axes to do that if I want...so to me it's all moot in some ways. I just wanted to see an actual number that someone could tie to this construction that validates it for everyone. And that is all that fishandfly was trying to do.

So, there's the reason why government bureaucrats aren't allowed in LHBA. They are NOT our friends. They seek to control us, and take even more of our choices and property away from us by force. I know that sounds radical. But if you really think it through, that is exactly what they are doing.Whatever...it's not worth wasting time, there is much that we can't change and/or have to comply with for the area we select. Most all states do have some type of building codes that need to be met, albeit not all. Building a conspiracy around the government has been done many times over. Maybe the man behind the knoll was trying to see if Kennedy was thinking about building an LHBA home...

As for information being freely available... There are countless places on the web where people have blogs describing how they built their BnP homes.Right, but those folks are not qualified to decide if the style can be accepted by the building department in my area. I am confident it is, but that is besides the point. I am just saying that there's a lot of info on the web, so? There's a lot of info for folks that build homes based on Mackie's way, and he's taught a great deal of folks to build log homes and live debt free also. He sure didn't cause as much controversy as SkipE, but everyone is different. Calling those folks names by classifying them into a single one lump group of "kit homes" is way damaging to the LHBA's credibility, IMO. Some of these folks are true craftsmen, not just folks pounding rebar into timbers. I have quite a bit more respect for someone that can do mortise and tenon joinery than I do for someone with an 8# sledge. The same that I have more respect for someone that does hand cut dovetail joinery on their furniture rather than using a brads and glue.

http://www.paulkahle.com/logstep1.htmlI've seen that before, not bad, not the end all for me. Not taking anything away from him, a good job at a guy who was able to do it himself, and I support those folks no matter how they do it, even with a tent.

Anyway... We have members who have built in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, so getting an engineers stamp for a butt and pass log home there is not a problem.I look at it differently...any and every home is a problem. You have to prove that the home can meet the standards. You might not care for Cali at all, but I do like living here and so does my family. I want to retire here, at the lake my property is at most likely...that could change though.

So, best of luck with whatever you decide. I do hope that, while my opinions are strong ones, and definitely NOT mainstream, I hope you don't interpret them as childish or rude. Like the great men who framed our Constitution, I have no love of government, nor do I trust it. If you REALLY want to read some rude, anti-government ranting, read Thomas Paine, hehe.Likewise on the good luck, I try to be a realist about it. Many of those founding fathers did in fact shed blood to get where we are today, and it is the constitution that makes this such a great country. We have the freedom to speak out and voice our opinion, that is by far more than many countries allow. I am all for freedom, but freedom is a double edge sword in itself...if you find a better place, let me know, cause AFAIC this is the best country in the world and I'm not shy about telling my kids that very fact.

Cheers,
Alan

[softorchestra]

2) I'm glad you respect fishandfly so highly. But you yourself stated that you are new to this forum. Therefore, comparing his skills to my comrades is a bit far fetched. I would not personally claim to be better/more knowledgeable than him, but unless you are trying to use hyperbole I take issue with the group comparison.I should have prefaced it with IMO, which I tried to do as much as I can tolerate in a message, for hair splitting people like yourself. You don't need to get all snotty, but I'm starting to learn that stress might be doing that to you.

What I meant to say is that he has already earned my respect as being a knowledgeable person in regards to wood, more so than people as yourself that continue to toss out political reasons for some of these things...without actual facts. He is a man of facts, in my experience. It is hard to compare the both of you, it's like comparing an apple to an orange for lack of a better analogy.

Cheers,
Alan

[Klapton]

I haven't found it yet! And I have travelled a bit. I'm about to retire from the Army next spring, when I will be building my dream home to die in. I probably should have mentioned that bit about my ideas NOT being mainstream earlier in my post, hehe. No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe we were actually suprised by Pearl Harbor, Hinkley acted alone, we actually did land on the moon, and a handful of angry muslims were behind 9/11.

But oddly enough, while most folks tend to be more politically radical in their youth, and gradually get some sense as they get older, the opposite has been true for me. Years ago, my radical libertariansim was just something I knew in my gut, but didn't fully realize or understand. It was only as I dug much deeper to the core principles of individual liberty that I came to hold the more radical views I hold today.

America is indeed the most free nation in the world. I've sworn an oath to keep it that way, and I meant it.

[Yuhjn]

America is indeed the most free nation in the world.

I should know better than to do this but knowing better and having the self-dicipline to constrain myself are 2 different things.

The above statement about America being the most free nation in the world is highly debatable and I would say that in fact that's not even close to true.

Additionally I believe Skip would disagree with that statement as well.

[softorchestra]

America is indeed the most free nation in the world. I've sworn an oath to keep it that way, and I meant it.For that I thank you, I do personally appreciate it.

The above statement about America being the most free nation in the world is highly debatable and I would say that in fact that's not even close to true.

Additionally I believe Skip would disagree with that statement as well.

And this is in itself what makes America such a free country, it's the fact that me and Skip don't need to agree, nor anyone else. We are all free to express ourselves as we like, within reason. Nobody is required to present a passport to leave this country, the door is always open. Everyone can leave and never come back. This one basic freedom is not the case with all countries, odd as it may seem, many countries restrict people from having the freedom to leave.

Cheers,
Alan

[softorchestra]

On this topic, I have tried to point out to GregS at LHOTI how horrible the log home community is on the inet.

Other fora have hundreds of messages, on various that I have used, and yet there is little of a community.

Which brings in LHBA. You folks do have a community, oddly enough...even though it is not an open community, it is one that actually have more activity around log homes than any other spot on the net.

Greg has a very nice looking site, but it is used by about 12 people. Most times when someone does have an interesting thread, it's about someone getting screwed by some company and that nobody should trust them.

This is exactly what SkipE preached, or at least tried to steer people away from those situations. I'm all for that aspect of the LHBA.

I have never seen some many idiots involved with any sector of any industry before, but log homes seem to drive passion and expression from people in different ways...to think that without living trees, we probably wouldn't be able to survive as humans...but once we kill it, we try to find the best way to preserve it...:-) Had we left it in the ground growing it would just continue to last indefinitely...until nature decided otherwise...*g*

I find the aspect of the LHBA community to be one of the marvels of the inet, it allowed people like SkipE to get exposure and to allow more folks to understand and follow his advice.

If the LHBA was an open and free community, it could really expand into a larger eco, IMO.

I believe people will still pay $$$s to attend a course that will give them hands on experience on what it is like to lift a log, and certainly how to build better devices to lift them. This is something I have pondered as I like to work metal also. I have a friend that had an accident a short while back, but luckily nobody was injured, just a broken gyn-pole and some bruised timbers and egos...something to ponder...he's just getting the roof on...

(not sure if this pic will show, will try img and url both)

href=http://www.softorchestra.com/images/pk-log-home.jpg

http://www.softorchestra.com/images/pk-log-home.jpg


Cheers,
Alan

[loghomefun]

I wish this information was freely distributed, because many of the other styles are and craftsmen discuss them freely all the time.

Partially, I can't help but think Skip caused all of this. It was Skip that decided to take on all log home builders, with the outlandish poetry which flows freely to the public.


Well that is all I need to know.

You want something for free.

You blame Skip for causing the kit guys to bad mouth him.

It appears you toe the LHOTI party line.

Doug

[Yuhjn]

And this is in itself what makes America such a free country, it's the fact that me and Skip don't need to agree, nor anyone else. We are all free to express ourselves as we like, within reason. Nobody is required to present a passport to leave this country, the door is always open. Everyone can leave and never come back. This one basic freedom is not the case with all countries, odd as it may seem, many countries restrict people from having the freedom to leave.


You're right it's not the case with all countries. I certainly wouldnt say the US is the least free country.

Perhaps it's just me but I read "if you dont like it get the heck out, you're free to LEAVE anytime you like" in your response. To that I would say that yes I am free to leave. But if "get the heck out" is your response to someone criticizing your country I would challenge you about the true meaning of the word patriot.

A TRUE patriot questions and challenges his country. We are in fact NOT the most free country. But instead of "getting out" I'd rather try to make it better by calling out those freedom constraining ideals that are being sold to people.

Like the patriot act.... anything but "freedom".

What does Skip think about the patriot act?


For anyone who thinks it's tastless for me to bring up Skip's name just after his passing, I'm truly sorry. Typing that post turned my stomach. But on the other hand Skip's death sparks that thing inside me that yearns to fight back.

I never had the honor of meeting Skip, but from the first time his name entered my conscience I wanted to. When I remember hearing the story of Skip paying his property taxes with 20,000 glass beads my heart sings.

For those who served in the US military, I salute you. Your service to our country is deeply appreciated. You are the type of people that give me hope for humanity.

That said, it's time for all Americans to accpt the fact that our country is not the best in everything. We have major problems and many other countries have figured things out that we havent. We're not the best and the greatest thing God ever put on the Earth.

1. Infant mortality
2. Literacy
3. Upward mobility
4. Life expectancy
5. Freedom of the press, TV, the internet
6. True individual freedom


The US is first in exactly none of those.

Now many people say "well if you dont like it (believe it) get out. " And to that I say, I'd rather try to fix it.

[softorchestra]

You're right it's not the case with all countries. I certainly wouldnt say the US is the least free country.No matter what, you can say it. That's my point. You can believe our government is out to destroy us, but at the end of the day even those incompetent folks have some reason to their madness I 'spose. I'm not defending them, just saying...I think it's best to avoid them, don't let the building inspectors come into the home, ward off assessors, do whatever you want to the inside.

We can do this in our country, and we can build even if it's not to code, as long as nobody knows, all the better...the way taxes are assessed on property and/or income should be addressed, but given the choice I am ok with what we have and feel I WANT to be here. There's a difference in wanting to be here and not liking to be here.

Perhaps it's just me but I read "if you dont like it get the heck out, you're free to LEAVE anytime you like" in your response. To that I would say that yes I am free to leave. But if "get the heck out" is your response to someone criticizing your country I would challenge you about the true meaning of the word patriot.You could read it that way, but it wasn't intended in that context. I just want people to respect and appreciate this country, and if they don't it's fine for them to leave. If you prefer to read it as you replied, that's ok, whatever you like...I'm easy in that regard.:-)

We all know America ain't perfect, but to me it's the most acceptable. And we let more people into this country that want to come here, and they do come here after they can get out of their country...I'm not making this stuff up, but you don't have to believe me...:-)

A TRUE patriot questions and challenges his country. We are in fact NOT the most free country. But instead of "getting out" I'd rather try to make it better by calling out those freedom constraining ideals that are being sold to people.Believe it or not, I think we're on the same page. And I will tell you that my wife is not a citizen of the U.S. We have intentionally kept her citizenship in her native country for our kids sake, although both of our kids have U.S. citizenship and I can't imagine them ever forfeiting that, but it is their choice if they ever did decide to do so. My daughter has the right to decide when she's 18, my son doesn't though and can only be a citizen of the U.S. unless he files formal suite as folks would do for acquiring another citizenship. We didn't know and hadn't filed the paperwork for our son...I would be disappointed if my daughter decided to forfeit her citizenship when 18, and surprised. She is 12 and this was her first year to travel outside the country on her own, to visit her Grandparents.

loghomefun,

Are you for real, would you like to buy a vowel?

Cheers,
Alan

[Ellsworth]

This thread is off topic.



Alan, I understand you have personal issue with Greg and LHOTI.? This is NOT the place?to pursue them.? As far as?I'm concerned Greg has the right to moderate his forum as he sees fit.????



We have never publicly criticized Greg, LHOTI or any kit builder.? Our forum will not be used as a platform for others to engage in that sort of behavior.?



You have been warned via email that you are being disruptive, and that further inflammatory posts will result in the suspension of your account.?

[softorchestra]

So I have been told by the admins.

I originally wanted to understand how the numbers are calculated. Sorry if my views are now inflammatory????

I guess the world is not blessed with the freedom that some of us strive for.

As I told the admin, I'm fine to leave peacefully, no reason to get all huffy...threatening to suspend me...whoopee doo...

Seems I've taken quite a few insults from people here for being honest and genuine. Still no real data to back up any of this in regards to building codes other than Rock. I guess that's all I'm gonna get anyway...later...

Cheers,
Alan

[Yuhjn]

// outlandish poetry which flows freely to the public.


That is SO what Skip did! I dont think I could have said it better myself if I'd worked for a month on it!


If there is anything more outlandish and poetic than teaching people, basically for free, about how to build these awesome log homes for themselves debt free?

Anyone would be blessed to have the kind of response and outcry to their passing as Skip did. He changed many, many people's lives.

People can say whatever they want about Skip's building techniques, what Skip taught went way beyond that. Skip would have taught you to build your house out of clay if that made the most sense.

Why does Skip say to "build butt and pass"? Because it makes the most sense! At least it did to Skip, and it does to most of the LHBA members after careful consideration and experimentation. Skip did, after all, build with basically every log construction technique you can think of. He found what he felt was the strongest, least expensive, fastest, and easiest way to build with logs.

Skip's retirement house was not in an area of the world where you can build log homes... So he, being Skip, built the massive concrete mansion for himself and his family... because that made the most sense.

Skip was truly a visionary.

[fishandfly]

I agree the 10 story example doesn't make a lot of sense, However, it was also taken out of context in how fishandfly used it. Let's be fair to him, I have quite a bit of respect for him and he knows wood much better than any of you folks, in how it retains moisture, how it changes, and how to build with it...although he is not a log craftsman, he does build houses, so he knows and understands getting engineering stamps, both good and bad. I want to point out that he has earned a lot of credibility with me, the more I work wood and try to understand it. This is not just logs, this is all wood, this is building furniture, this is building cabinets, this is in deciding how to structure the floor and how to join it, so that I don't need to sand it in 3 years to get the warp out.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan,
Two issues here.

First, The ten story cabin example was prior to anyone posting any numbers that actually made sense. The people who suggested that numbers just don't matter, (i.e. the people who should have just read the thread and not responded, since they had absolutely no clue what the answer to the question was)
were failing to see the validity of my question. Quite frankly, had everyone just responded that numbers never matter, I would have found a different way of building my log home. I'm not one to venture into a DIY project without knowing that people like Rock Engineering have thought this through as well. Also, the fact that people can find engineers in California to sign off on the design helps, but not nearly as much as knowing that Rock fully understands all of the engineering involved. If someone like Kola speaks for the group every time someone asks a semi-intelligent question, I doubt anyone will see beyond his response to any real well-thought-out info behind the scenes.

2nd, I hate to lose someone who has respect for me, but I think you have me very confused with someone else. Other than general carpentry skills, I don't know much of anything about wood. I don't run away from technical info, flying, or fishing, but am certainly no expert here.

[rocklock]

A TRUE patriot questions and challenges his country. We are in fact NOT the most free country.
1. Infant mortality
2. Literacy
3. Upward mobility
4. Life expectancy
5. Freedom of the press, TV, the internet
6. True individual freedom
The US is first in exactly none of those.

I find these statements insulting and silly.
There are six other countries in this world that have trial by jury of your peers... SIX. You can't have freedom with out the rule of LAW. Without property rights. And a trial by jury in the best way to preserve freedom.
So, which of these seven country states in their founding documents that our freedoms come from God. Only one - your in it!
To think differently is beyond my comprehension.

Oh, this business about being a true patriot is inane. When we were protesting the war in 1968, 69 and 70 we got exactly nothing done except have a good time... OBTW I was on the GI bill at the time.

[Ellsworth]

This thread has veered off topic.? I'll lock it for a while and re-open it later.



Alan has been banned for his failure to adhere to our terms of service.