BUILDING WITH STONE

[WillandHelen]

I READ A BOOK ON THE TOPIC CALLED "BUILDING WITH STONE". I WOULD RECOMMEND IT TO JUST ABOUT ANYONE BUILDING AROUND STONE. ITS AS CHEAP AS ANYTHING IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO MOVE IT VERY FAR AND IT IS NOT AS SKILLFUL AS YOU MIGHT THINK...JUST ALOT OF HARD WORK. IF YOU ARE BUILDING OFF OF BEDROCK ESPECIALLY IT IS A GREAT IDEA.

[JeffandSara]

There are some lovely stone buildings in this county and an adjoining one. They're very charming, and vary in style from ranch to craftsman to Mediterranean castle. :) The one problem I have heard about older stone buildings is that snakes like them a lot, but I'm sure that's something one could overcome with good maintenance and good construction.


Just curious, though... does the book address structural strength issues like earthquake reinforcements, etc?


Sara :D

[WillandHelen]

THE BOOK REALLY DIDN'T ADDRESS EARTHQUAKE STRUCTURAL ISSUES. STONE WOULD PROBABLY DO QUITE POORLY IN THE EVENT OF AN EARTHQUAKE. A ROCK WALL FALLING OVER WOULDN'T BE THE BEST SCENARIO FOR A HOMEOWNER. ITS RELATIVELY TOP HEAVY AND NOT FLEXIBLE AT ALL. BUT IT IS BEAUTIFUL AND EASILY ACHIEVABLE AND CHEAP...AS LONG AS ITS REALLY CLOSE BY.

[JeffandSara]

I wonder if that would preclude new (permitted) construction of stone buildings in an increasing number of areas? Seems like earthquake requirements are getting more stringent in areas where they are a consideration. Perhaps local regs are another reason for the increasing use of the manufactured stone-like facing products?

We live in the highest earthquake zone, so we'll probably never do more than a short dry-stack wall or something like that. Though we did talk at one point about building a smoke house, and I think stone might work well for that. :wink:

Sara

[WillandHelen]

Building a small outbuilding like a smoke house would be a great way to get the technique down and see if you like the way it looks. We live in a county with no permits whatsoever, so we want to give it a shot and see what it looks like with a storage building. Snakes? Hmmm. I need a bigger cat.

[somasoul]

Snakes? Hmmm. I need a bigger cat.

Have you thought about getting a Liger? http://www.tigers-animal-actors.com/about/liger/ligerkrf.JPG

The average male Liger stands over 12 feet tall and weighs over 900 pounds. I think one of these would chase those scary old snakes away.

[hawkiye]

It depends on what type of building you do. Most modern stone construction is block with stone veneer. There is a method called slip forming that can give a hand layed stone wall look to some degree Thomas Elpel used it in his book Living Homes. It doesn't require the skill of a stone mason. But it also doesn't look as good as hand layed up close but it really is personal preference and depend on what kind of stone you use.

Most earthquake codes can probably be met with the proper steel in the stone work. I am considering doing a slip form basement when I build our personal log home.

Blayne

[WillandHelen]

I would really recommend "Building with Stone" by Charles Long. The old method of building a stone wall by laying courses of stone and not using a veneer or slip forms definitly looks the best and it doesn't take a pro to do it. It all depends on your proximity to the material...unless your really determined. But if you've got the stone nearby then look at this building technique.

Will

[WillandHelen]

CORRECTION...THE NAME OF THE BOOK IS: THE STONEBUILDER'S PRIMER. WHERE DID I GET "BUILDING WITH STONE"? :D

[JeffandSara]

Some of the veneer products look great, Blayne, but that does add another cost element. I think that for a lot of people who use stone it's a combination of the cost factor (or lack thereof) and the charm of using indigenous materials. I think you're right that earthquake can be accounted for with steel within, with natural or with veneer. I remember seeing a natural stone addition (a craftsman-style turret entryway) being built in a nearby tourist town, and they were using steel someway or another (would HAVE to around here to pass code in the middle of town), but can't remember just how they did it.


Sara :D

[Hillbilly]

WHERE DID I GET "BUILDING WITH STONE"? :D

There's actually a book called "Building With Stone" by Charles McRaven. I've never read it. It's got good customer reviews though.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0882665502/qid=1111759517/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-2162633-2619905

[WillandHelen]

Right. I saw that book and thought it was geared more for those building retaining walls and landscaping stonework. I was more interested in building solid stone walls. I love the permenance of it and the fact that its made with a local natural material. It is also easy to maintain. It won't rot, rust, and the older it looks the better.

Will

[wood bug]

I think in the long run, rock/stone is appealing and adds a more diverse apperance and I think BUYERs' almost expect some rock work in a log home

[somasoul]

I think in the long run, rock/stone is appealing and adds a more diverse apperance and I think BUYERs' almost expect some rock work in a log home

I really enjoyed the homes on this site with the smooth stone work.

That stuff is just incredible looking.

Ya know what else is incredible? I dunno if I mentioned it yet or not........

.........but ligers, man, are they cool or what?

Is it me or are all the people who have ligers totally dweebs? Not to mention that the castle in that picture, though made of wood, is totally not Skip built and could totally use Ric Carlson (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/log-home-pictures-rc-2330.jpg) to do some stone work on it.

[WillandHelen]

The liger is probably my favorite animal. They are so sweet. If you have one you are LUCKY.

[adubar]

For any substantial sized home, you would probably do better with re-enforced concrete and a stone veneer. The problem with traditional masonry walls is that to allow for the weight above from any structure and the actual wall height the walls must be made correspondingly thicker and thicker as the height and weight goes up. This also means that footings must grow proportionately. At some point, it becomes too costly and too tricky to make the walls safely (for an amateur mason). You might take note that most rock-masonry homes are limited by wall height and length and usually do not include rock walls for a second story, if there is one at all. In Europe, most of the "amateur stone houses" are small hovels. But, if that is what one wants, it is a very quaint style, and has it's own attraction.

For a very rustic example of re-enforced concrete with rock veneer, take a look at Timberline Lodge on Mount Hood in Oregon. You would never guess that it is simply a rock veneer on that massive foundation of steel re-enforced concrete. ---hand fitted, of course.


Slip form is great for a bang-up job, and is very easy for the novice to build, but it never quite looks right.

Regards,
-A

[WillandHelen]

It is difficult to build a two story stone house. Not as far as skill is concerened, but it takes more effort to put a 60 lbs stone in a wall at 20 ft instead of 8 ft. There are numerous examples of such in the US. Probably most built by the farmers and such that occupied them. However, Most such structures were built about 1 story with stone and then wood construction above. Adubar, you are right about the numerous issues of building a stone house over 10 ft high in stone. Long walls (~>20ft) must also have perpendicular support (buttress). The great thing about having a tall stone base is that it can cut down significantly on rot and maintenance due to stone's excelent weathering. Stone facades have come a long way recently. But the crappy ones are still prevelent. Its something you would want to really research before settling on one.

[clairenj]

http//www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/limited.htm

[Appalacious]

so what about a stone foundation? ...could you get a full basement out of stone/mortar?
J

[ponyboy]

Here is an interesting blog about building a strawbale house in Canada. The link is one of their blog entries about a field stone arch he saw a group of people building in a field near his house.

http://www.glenhunter.ca/archives/000217.html

This is a link to the group that was building the arch above.
(Dry Stone Wall Association of Canada) Some really sweet stonework :shock:

http://www.jboyweb.com/drystonewall/


Jeff

[grannyk]

Is that fieldstone in that fireplace?

[rreidnauer]

Heh heh, that mysterious arch reminds me of an arch I built from local stone, in a semi-remote section of a county park near me. It's not dry stacked, but it will make the occasional hiker wonder about it's origin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/titantornado/stone_arch.jpg

[ponyboy]

:D Now if you would have made two arches and painted them gold... 8)

[WillandHelen]

Well I finally started my stone work a couple of weeks ago. I found a supplier close by that sells blue sandstone for $80 a ton. I am using type S mortor for the strength and am laying the wall about 8" thick against the block wall foundation of my house. Although I had no prior skill in this I found it quite easy. I can only get about 30 s.f. in a day, which is about 1.5 bags of mortar a day...so it is rather slow I guess, but actually alot of fun. It is like a big puzzle. It looks great too. I have gone around town to look at other professionally done jobs....and I really don't like them as much. Around here they chare 10 dollars a square foot too! Don't be afraid of stone masonry, just give it a try. You will be suprised at how good at it you could be.

[Phil Savoie]

Please post some pics of your project. tks Phil

[ramblinman502]

hey all..i need some thoughts on this.

we have a mason doing a "veneer" on our ICF stem wall with stones that came from a house we took down on the property. i was planning on having the stones cut n then used as a 4" veneer. i like the look of drystack..but he was going to mortar these.
yesterday when i wasnt on site he decided to experiment a bit. i like the look of what he came up with, it fits into the look of the cabin because of how beefy it is. and i can save some money cuz he doesnt have to cut a bunch of stones.
my question/problem is..if we do it this way ( meaning as thick as this would be ) am i just bringing up the height of the "ground" and loosing the 18" above ground rule?? i kinda need to decide quick cuz hes paid by the hour n he aint cheap. would this retain moisture or drain fine? i held off on the termite shield til we knew what we were doing with the veneer.
the top stone sets in more..and creates a nice transition to the log and it hides that first chinking line which i dont like much anyway.
thoughts? concerns?
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_0992.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_0989.jpg

[panderson03]

ramblinman can you decribe more about the experiment? I cannot view the pictures (limits placed by servers here at work....) can you describe what your mason has done?

[ramblinman502]

basically hes taken stones that are about 10" thick..dry set them against the ICF ( tho he does have gravel between the stone and the ICF ) so were talking a full 12" at the ground and then it slowly tapers in. with the top stone set in the most ( kinda creates a small shelf i guess ) the look is cool ( tho it may sound strange )
my concern is the 18" rule and moisture..it feels like weve just brought the ground height up...seems the water would just drain tho.

[bmurphy96]

If I were you I would be inclined to go with it and then monitor it closely over the next year or so to make sure it was working correctly. You are not bringing dirt up to the logs..you are bringing stone so I don't think it would be a problem.

keith

[panderson03]

It does sound dramatic!!
the goal is getting the logs 18 inches off the ground so the experiment does not interfere with that. one might worry about rain water splashing off the lower stones that are on the outside of the taper, though....
we'll be finishing our ICF with stone as well. dry set sounds so easy! had planned on securing the stones to the ICF with mesh, mortor, sitting on top of our brick ledge. I like your idea better for our garage stem wall. would look a bit more natural!
I hope others chime in on whether or not the experiment 'brought the ground height up'!

[rkissinger]

This looks awesome, I was thinking of a stone over ICF foundation myself and hadn't considered dry stack like this. How high can you stack those and still be stable without any attachment to the wall? As far as your 18" above ground level is concerned I don't believe you have a problem. The stone and gravel is basically the same thing that your concrete foundation itself is made of, Termites won't like it and it won't hold moisture. One thing though, it looks like the stones are simply stacked on the ground without any kind of footer below the frost-line so if you are somewhere that freezes much you might get some movement in the winter. Oh the other hand you hired a mason and I would think he should know what he's doing. I say go for it.

[loghousenut]

Good lookin Masonry! I'd let that boy stack rocks at my place anytime. I think it looks cool as long as the cap rock is narrower so it tapers back toward the sill log. Dry stack is great because it drains and there is no problem with frost heaving cracking mortar. I have never worked with ICF's but I'd check and see if you should seal the styrofoam above ground. I'm wondering how to make the transition at the sill log and I think I'd have your roofer make up a custom flashing that matches the roof that attaches to the sill log down low and slants down and out to cover part of the cap rock. Unless you are sitting the rock on the footing I'd be sure the backfill is tightly packed and the rock is sitting on gravel. I have a feeling your guy knows how to keep settling to a minimum and since it is not srtuctural it doesn't matter if it settles a bit anyway.
I don't know the answer to your 18" above soil level question. This certainly is a path for termites etc to gain access to your logs. maybe if that flashing attached to the PT sill plate and covered the top 1/2 of the top rock? Maybe a rigorous application of boric acid every year or two?
Sure wish I had a pile or two of that good looking rock. Below is a shot of an old dry stacked rock/block wall on my place. The block is 22R.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t55/loghousenut/Wow/Blockwall002.jpg

[ramblinman502]

thanks for the input/comments folks. ive been doing a little reading on it..and cant find any reason why doing it this way would be a problem..as long as we can come up with a way to incorporate the termite shield. the splashing could be a problem if the shelf is too big.
and the answer to the question of how high can you dry stack..im not sure to be honest. ill ask the mason when he gets here tomorrow. hes good at what he does thats for sure. here is some more of his work on the property ( stone porn if ya will )
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_1003.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_1003.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_0997.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_1001.jpg

[ramblinman502]

stone work is moving along..still working out what to do about the termite shield.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_1358.jpg

[loghousenut]

Sure looks slick! Haha Rocklock. I made ya look.

[Captn]

This looks fantastic!

We had the same idea for our stemwalls ..... can you give us an idea of cost?

[ramblinman502]

for the one side of that stem wall, 32' long ( thats not finished ) i got a bill on friday for $1350. hes not cheap. n that doesnt include the stone, which came from a stone house we took down on the property. i would imagine that the stone would be pretty expensive.
but ill say..ive been watching him do it on n off n it isnt rocket science. hes gonna do these two houses...on the next house, well be doing it ourselves.

[ChainsawGrandpa]

I have a Slipform stone building DVD. I think it is about 1 1/2 hours long. Very instructive and entertaining. $20.
G'pa

[JonD]

Willan, what a great idea to build a smoke house to try stone walls out, and a great excuse to buy a big smoker and have a cookout.

[R_Cullen]

I love this idea. I have now incorporated it into my plans. Tell me more!

[ramblinman502]

stone porn
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_2257.jpg

[clairenj]

slipform against a stemwall. on a slab.

http://picasaweb.google.com/cces57/MarcellaLogHomeProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCNipqfa1zua1M A#5164770669500720162
http://picasaweb.google.com/cces57/MarcellaLogHomeProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCNipqfa1zua1M A#5357994261895763410

[slrrls]

there is a good page here on slipform stone building
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1996-12-01/Learn-to-Build-using-Slipform.aspx

[slrrls]

Not like I know him or anything but....
Doug gives a brief on his build here.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/Doug/SlipForm.htm

[adubar]

There are several books published over the past 30 years on using the slip form method for the home owner in house building.

One of the books is titled, "Build your own stone house" by Karl and Sue Schwenke. It has been reprinted over several additions since 1975. I have a copy of their original eddition.

It does give the novice some information to start to understand the work required to use this method. To my mind, except for the lifting and moving of rocks, it is easier than trying to build stick-frame the first time.

With good planning and a good source of good looking rocks, and some practice, I believe most anyone could make a rock face that looks very esthetically pleasing.

The techniques could be employed to "dress up" a foundation as well.

that reminds me of a story about my grandfather and his admirable frugality.

When it came time to think about rocks to build the external face of the fireplace for the cabin he and my father were building, he simply added a task to his outdoor sporting excursions. Each time he was either fly-fishing or near a stream bed on one of his hikes, he carried home a few well chosen rocks.

After a couple of years, he had all the rocks he needed.

-A

[loghousenut]

It does give the novice some information to start to understand the work required to use this method. To my mind, except for the lifting and moving of rocks, it is easier than trying to build stick-frame the first time.


-A

A 5 acre lawn would also be easy... If it weren't for all that darn mowing. HaHaha.

[adubar]

Speaking of mowing, there was an analysis done between the power of a gas mower and a scythe in productivity. The results after several repeated tests found that a competent worker using a scythe only took 30 minutes longer than a worker with a gas mower to mow a square acre of grass.

Evidently, there are quite a few two-stroke "machines' that replaced hand tools that are in the same class. We swapped old fashioned muscle (and clean technology) for gas and pollution spewing mahcines that didn't really gain as much leverage as has been marketed.


Now, if you had to mow 20 acres a day, I think the gas mower makes a lot more sense.

[ramblinman502]

heres some finished stone for ya LHN!!
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/rusty_bucket_album/the%20cabins/IMG_0086.jpg

[loghousenut]

Really turned out nice didn't it. How about a closeup of that gable end. Is that wane-sided board on batten? I like it!

[Mosseyme]

WOW, love the gable end siding, was still pondering that part, may have to borrow your plan there. Beautiful.
Stone looks great too.
The whole cabin is just perfect.

[ramblinman502]

ill get a close up pic..we just slabbed it. n did a reverse natural edge BnBatten. ( nailed on an angle..VERY important ) gladd ya like it mossey : ))

[PeeCee]

Wow!! That's a really pretty home. What is the size? I'd love to see more photos. Do you have any up on photobucket or on a blog?

[squarepeg]

Stone looks very cool, but I lived in a 200 year-old stone house and the insulation factor is terrible! It was ruinously expensive to heat. It always feels cool and damp. Wood is so much better for insulation, why would you want to build with stone?

[sdart]

Not all stone houses are cold and damp. We lived in a ancient (13th century) stone house in France, built on stone arches (the cheap way to build back then in an area with no big trees for beams). The mass of stone from the interior arches keeps the temperature very constant. We heated it with a wood stove and once it had heated all that stone, it stayed warm and toasty in there with very little effort. The way the walls were built, with stone on both sides and rubble in the middle made for very good insulation. Of course it didn't hurt that some of the walls were nearly a meter thick!

But to build a stone house like that from scratch would take many many many times longer than building a log house and we'd like to live to see this house finished!

[stamic55]

I lived in a stone "spring" house for 4 years near Philadelphia. The exterior was built entirely of stone (except the roof) sometime in the 1800's. Interior was done with paneling. First floor was a slab. Walls were 1 to 2 feet thick. It was a bit humid in the summer, so I had to run a dehumidifier. In the winter I heated with a wood stove which kept the house dry and warm. Now, it was built in an active spring area which may have contributed to the humidity levels. My well was an artisian well that was only 6ft deep and came into the house. It only flooded a couple times when we had record rain.

Something I noticed with the stone was the transfer of heat. During spring/summer sunny days the outside would absorb heat and keep the inside hot into the evening when trying to sleep. It may cost more to cool. In the winter it would take a while to get below 50F if the wood heat was off. Kept the oil heat bill down when I wasn't there.

Personally I would not want to live in one again. The humidity kept me stuffy. If it would work, I would consider it for a crawlspace wall. Maybe a basement if you could seal it somehow. My parents block basement built in 1987 has no water or humidity issue what-so-ever.

[oldtrapper]

Found this treasure trove of masonry info. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEs2jo6LjN4

[loghousenut]

Found this treasure trove of masonry info. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEs2jo6LjN4

That ole boy rubs that mud just like Gramaw Frankie used to work bacon grease into a biscuit. Good video.

Sorry we don't have any movies of Gramaw Frankie eating. She said moving pictures were a shortcut to the domain of the Devil himself.