Good Adivce Wanted

[Gladiator]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this Site. I would first like to say that so far I am very impressed and glad to see something like this Website around to help people. I wish I would have known about it a loooong time ago.
Almost 2 years ago my wife and I decided we needed a bigger home. So we looked at various builders and floor pans around the area and decided to go with a Simmons Home. (Big Mistake) The square footage is 3,100 but it looks small? I know that may not make much sense to some but it just does. We often wonder where the space has gone. Anyway, We are going to attempt to sell the home this coming Srping '09.

We are looking at some Land (about 3 acres outside of Tulsa, OK) and if the price is right and the opportunity is there we are going to purchase it. Now, here comes some really big questions. If we sell our home (we won't get anything from the sale other than getting out from under a huge payment.) 1. If we finance no more than $100,000 and do most of the work ourselves is it possible for us to construct a 40X40 Butt and Pass Log home? I know that depends on several things like, what materials we obtain beforehand and how much we pay for lumber etc etc... but I am just trying to get an idea. With that said, and we get a good rate on Lumber and materials is it possible? we would like to have a total Sq footage of 4,000 ft. 3 floors... Am I dreaming or can it be done?

Thanks to everyone who gives a reply back. I appreciate it.
J.dubya

[adubar]

Welcome!

I think you answered your own questions. It has all to do with the materials and methods you choose to build and availability of resources.

What will decidedely make your home more expensive and most-likely out of the ball park of $100,000 is if you have a short time line to build. Giving yourseslf the most amount of time to gather your materials will go a very long way in keeping costs down.

Something you need to figure is how much of the construction will you be contracting out (electrical, plumbing, & etc.)? There are methods to get these types of systems up and running on the cheap, but you should at the very least figure the going rate for such work when looking at getting a loan. Depending upon your local trades and market, the systems required to finish the home may put your costs far above $100,000.

That being said, I do think you could build at or below your amount if you are willing to do the majority of the work yourself and take the time and energy to educate yourself on the materials market (including local logging/lumber industry) as well as agressively studying about residential building systems (plumbing, roof sytems, heat/havac, & etc.). The only sure way to keep costs to a minimum is to understand where the "loop-holes" are in the building -trades market and the materials supply/distribution markets.

Another very important thing to consider to keep both the build cost down and the long term maintenance costs down is what do you REALLY NEED in a home.
Paring down your "wants" to actual needs and simplifiying your lifestyle requirements will go a very long way in reducing the cost of your home.

Another thing you should consider is that by intending to "finance" your build from the onset, you are already putting yourself in a frame of mind that can keep you out of the loop in therms of saving the most money you can. You are also incurring dept from the start. The tendancy after that point is to make decisions based on "convinience" rather than fiscal responsiblity. This may come back and cause costs to rise when you are faced with something like putting your roof system in: you are tired, under manned and the local builders throw you a low bid--one that is far more than you would pay to do it yourself, but one that seems all too actractive and requires yet another loan!

If you buy into the standard and accepted processes the home building industry and real estate indsutry and banks use (loans, contarctors, sub-contractors and professional materials suppliers/distributors), then you put yourself at the mercy of the local market forces and your $100,000 goal is simply a number and probably not attainable.

What is required is a complete "rethink" of how you go about building a home.

The LHBA's class and member forum are a wealth of information on how to formulate a sound approach to thinking about and undertaking your build.

-A

[Yuhjn]

Well adubar laid it out very well. That's some good advice.

All I would say personally is that I highly recommend you take the LHBA course. As adubar said you need to rethink your entire process and get yourself completely outside of those conventional ways of sizing up the problem.

If you try right now to build a 40x40 with a 100k bank loan and no LHBA course, I would bet the farm you come in way over budget. But if you take the course, spend a couple years planning, gathering tools and materials, and saving money, you have a chance.

One of "Skip's Tips" that you'll learn in the class is: "Dont build the biggest house you can afford, build the SMALLEST house you can afford". That tip alone will save you tens of thousands of dollars, if not more. The only requirement is that you take that tip to heart.

[AnneG]

Adubar has given you some excellent advice Gladiator. I hope you will heed it. You may not mean to take out another loan, or over spend, but when you already start out in the hole, where else are you going to go? Please look around on this site and see how most of the participants are trying desperately to get out of debt and to pay as they go. Many of us have learned the hard way that debt free is the only way. Good luck to you.

[Gladiator]

Appreciate the advice. Trust me I do. Yuhjn when you made that comment about what Skip said, " don't buy the biggest house you can afford buy the smallest." I take that to mean build smaller and add on as you get money. Am I wrong? One of the main reasons why we wanted a home that large is we have 5 kids. So that could pose somewhat of an issue. I would like to take the class and more than likely will do so. Looks like I will have to wait until this fall. No way I can make this weekend.

I appreciate all your advice and I will indeed take it to heart. I don't know much about the construction process but I am learning....

[Klapton]

I think Skip's maxim is more about discerning wants vs. needs. I take "build the smallest house you can afford" in two ways. 1) Build what you really NEED. In your case with kids, you probably DO need a lot of room. 2) Build simple and square. Building square you get the maximum square footage for the amount of actual materials and effort required to build the house. Expressed mathematically: (40 x 40) > (50 x 30).

Another thing to consider regarding construction loans is that you automatically have time constraints. First, you begin accruing interest on the loan, even if you are not required to make payments yet. Second, they usually have a two year limit, with a balloon at the end. In other words, you pretty much HAVE to be done in that time frame, and be ready to roll the loan into a regular mortgage.

I'm personally torn on whether to do a loan or to build mortgage free. Part of me wants to pay as I go SO bad... but the other part of me (her name is Donna) doesn't want to live in a trailer on the property any longer than we absolutely must. We ARE comitted, however, to doing almost everything ourselves, including plumbing and electric. I'm reading up on it, and I think I can do it. The parts of the job that frighten me are the ones that will break my back. My brain is just fine, and plumbing and electrical are more about good planning and design than actual "labor" per se.

[Gladiator]

At first 50X30 looks better but I can see now what you mean by 40X40 and you are correct. Man, that's weird but it does make sense. I want to be debt free myself and not having a mortgage would help that is for certain. I really don't want to take out a loan and I am going to try really hard not to. I'm scared to try this on my own but I will just have to man up and do it. are there people on this forum that really have no construction experience and do this with little or no help? I have never tried to build anything on my own and I have doubts that I can. Not to say that I won't try because I have a great attitude about it and I am willing to pay attention and learn. I am humble when I see the stuff people have done on here.

I'm going to start really searching around and see what kinds of deals I can get for everything. for now I have a big house but I hate the payment and I hate the house. You can see nails coming out of the walls and the house is less than 2 years old. It's a crummy stick house and had I known ahead of time way ahead of time I would have done things differently. But you live and learn. I'm not getting any younger and I'm ready to move along with this thing.

My ultimate goal would be to live where I am right now and build on the Log Home as I get the money that way when I sell my current home I can bail and move into my ne Awesome Log Home. Don't laugh too hard it could happen

[patrickandbianca]

Klapton,

I think I will have to disagree about the plumbing and electrical. I havent done a lot of either, but it was ALWAYS more work and more time than I could possibly have imagined. I feel sort of the opposite about the back breaking work. I know i can do that, but the plumbing and electrical (which I also plan to do) are the scary parts for me. On the surface, it seems so simple but every time I do either one I am surprised about the amount of time and energy involved. I can very easily see myself working on plumbing and electrical for two months and then hiring a contractor to get it done. Right now I am planning on doing as much as possible to save as much as possible so that I have a little cushion for plumbing and electrical. I am still at least two years away and a lot can happen in two years so I might feel different about it later. As far as living in a trailer while building the cabin. I view that as motivation to not by expensive things that we dont need. If it comes down to buying granite countertops or living for two more months in a trailer, i bet that we would buy laminate countertops.

Patrick

[Klapton]

I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it was EASY, or that it wouldn't be time-consuming. But you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned fear. Fear comes from lack of knowledge, and lack of knowledge can be remedied. (I'm not slamming on you. I have PLENTY of nervousness and trepidation about this entire thing!) But I know I'm a smart guy. What one man can do, another can as well.

I worry about stuff like peeling logs simply because I have a bad back. My worry is that I'll peel logs all day on a Saturday, then won't be able to MOVE for another week. I laid a tile floor in my basement a year or so ago, and I was in so much pain, I waited a couple weeks before doing the grout! Donna and I are working out and losing weight, and that will help a bunch.

But yeah... I didn't mean to make it sound like ANY of this project is going to be easy.

[StressMan79]

The reason many families were large 150 years ago was that they needed the free labor... You got it already!!

consider the wealth of experience building a home would be for your children (if they aren't too urbanized yet). Anyway, I wish I had a few that were 10 or so... as of yet, no kids, and my wife wants one (I do too)... a baby puts a crimp in the schedule...

Anyway, listen to the advice of the members on the forum. Then listen to your heart. Neither will steer you wrong.

-Peter

[Yuhjn]

Like Klapton said, the smallest house you can afford line is mostly about prioritizing. With five kids you obviously need a lot of square footage. But what can you sacrifice to get it? And do you need a 40x40? Could 35x35 be enough?

A 40x40 is HUGE. Especially if you go the LHBA route and put 2 stories plus a loft on there. For example lets say you do a 40x40 with a full basement:

Full basement on a 40x40 : 1600 ft^2
First floor : 1600 ft^2
Second floor has a 1/4 cut out : 1200 ft^2
Loft has a 1/2 cut out : 800 ft^2
======================
Total is 5200 square feet! That's pretty insane even for a family of 7. Though it does include a full basement which is not the norm.

Now it would be harder to heat, less aestetically pleasing, and more materials, but you could certainly floor over the entire 2nd floor and loft. That would give you a whopping 6400 square feet! Think that's enough for the family?

So anyway, my point was really that freedom from your mortgage will be worth more to you and your family than all the square footage you can mortgage. :)

Now as far as your question about "do people really do this with no construction experience?" The answer to that is an overwhelming YES! Yes they do all the time. There are tons of LHBA members with build diaries to prove it. Although I do totally understand how you feel... it seems somewhat unbelievable. Just keep reading backwards in time on the forums and you'll find links to several online build diaries of people from all walks doing exactly what you're thinking about doing.

[Kola]

I always wanted 6 kids. Brady Bunch stuff...big ol family, lots of commotion, chaos and fun.

I have none... and now I am too dang old. Lifes funny sometimes.

Maybe I'll be a scoutmaster or something. :)

..or teacher.

otoh maybe I find me a surrogate bahama momma?
hmmmmm. :)

kola

[Valerie]

They'll love you! This generation needs to be influenced by men out of the mainstream ...

My 17 yr old son is writing up his final report for his Eagle project this week ... when his dad died 3 years ago, it was one Scout master who really stepped in for him, kept him motivated, etc. and he has gotten so much out of it. None of the other adults in the troop would have kept track of him like this one man did. It means the world to me for Nate to have had Scouts in his life.

Then you can invite them out when your logs need peeling ... unless of course you find that bahama momma ... smile

[Longhare]

This is just too much of a coincidence to pass up. I have to tell you a story.

My father passed away almost two years ago. He and my mother were married for 48 years. This past Sunday would have been their 50th...

Okay, so a few months ago, my young nephew was working on his Eagle scout paperwork, and my mom helped him through all the paperwork. A short time later, another young man in the troop who was just shy of 18, had all his work done for the Eagle project, but he totally hit a roadblock on the paperwork. To make a long story short, my mom stepped in and pushed a little (okay, a lot) to help him get his paperwork done. Since things had changed a bit since my nephew's paperwork, she had to talk to one of the scout leaders a number of times to get everything worked out. They kept in touch by email, keeping the paperwork going. After a while, that's not all that kept going...This scout leader had lost his wife a few months after my day passed away, and the rest is history, as they say.

Well, not quite history yet, but it is quite the budding relationship. It is so sweet!

So.....maybe you SHOULD go get involved with the scouts....you never know where it might lead..

Louanne

[Kola]

Those were nice stories and thanks for sharing.

Yes I would love to be a scoutmaster and I too had great mentors and experiences from being a boy scout.
Is it still popular? Its seems the majorityof newage kids are engrossed with x box and high school sports 24/7 12 months otta the year.

Troop 644 from Cheektowaga New York! OO RAHH!

err,,maybe I would meet a Brownie mom too. Do they still have Brownies and Girl Scout leaders?

Kola

[spiralsands]

Granted I have a little experience doing some plumbing and electrical from my old stationary engineering days in the Air Force but the home stuff should be easy enough for you to pick up. Once you start fixing stuff yourself and getting experience it becomes easier. Books help too. I'm redoing a bathroom now and I never installed tub plumbing. I also have to reroute the drain vent to my roof. No problem once you get a diagram of how stuff is supposed to be installed. So it takes a little more time. A few days, even a few weeks, can be worth thousands of dollars saved. Also, you have to be wary about who you hire, the plumber, the electrician, whether they really ae as qualified as you think and if in the end, you can have done a better job.

Whenever I lack experience in something, I spend a long time standing in front of the job, hands on hips, staring and thinking. Time consuming, but I wanna get it right the first time.

[rckclmbr428]

I got my eagle back in 97, and have been serving as a scoutmaster or assistant scoutmaster ever since, very rewarding, very frustrating, we started doing shakedowns before each trip and taking cell phones and I pods, but its still fun in the woods, we are meeting to night for a camping trip and its forecasted to 96 with high humidity both days...yuck.....

[zato_ichi]

I was really proud of my boys and all the scouts this past Memorial day. They plpaced flags on all the graves in the local Veterans Cemetary and did it with great reverence and respect. Not all kids are just video drones, it awesome to see how many on here are parents of Eagle Scouts, congrats to all who earned their Eagle!


http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q292/Ichi_Da_Killer/Wylie_flag.jpg

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http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q292/Ichi_Da_Killer/Graves.jpg

[RockEngineer]

You're never too old to be a Boy Scout Adult Volunteer. Anyone need an application?

In BSA adult leader training I teach the adults you don't get people involved if you don't ask.

My salute to all the eagle scouts. Way to go.

[dsmither]

Every spring I meet with other former Boy Scouts for one night of camping and cooking around the fire. Some years there are as few as 10, other years we?ve had over 30. We sit around the fire and reminisce about things that happened 25 years ago. Many have become adult leaders. It?s a great organization. Several of them are returning this Tuesday to Quetico Park near Ely Minnesota, to spend a week canoeing and camping with their sons who are also Scouts.

[oldesthomeinSC_ohio]

I have a 200 year old log home that needs finished. Just this weekend a man came to ask if it was for sale. He fixes up old log homes as a hobby. Should I sell it and if so what is a fair price? It is the second oldest log home in Seneca county ohio where I live.

[StressMan79]

just "needs to be finished." Hmmm... they had 200 years! What isn't done? The indoor plumbing?

get a good real estate broker to check it out. They can prolly give you a good idea.

-Peter