what is the best tree to use for log home

[ivanshayka]

I am planing to take a two day class in 2009. I know that it is a long time from now, but i am in a nursing school and cant to it any other way.
Anyways, I live in a Northern Michigan and we have some good size trees, such as red pine, white pine, and some cedar. Although it is hard to come across the property that you can buy with big trees on it. I have resently found a property with some red pine on it, and now i have a question to all. Is Red Pine a good log home building material? And, what is the best tree to build a log home?
Thanks for reading, ivan.

[dvb]

FREE ONES!!!!
Sorry I couldn't help myself......

But to answer your question; Use what you have available. In the class you will learn plus and minus on different species.

Dean
LHBA Class of Feb. 2006
Best investment of my life.

[hemlock77]

Or in the case of my last load of logs, traded a couple 30 packs of beer for them; Most folks use soft woods due to availability and desirable features.
Stu

[GENE13]

I am planing to take a two day class in 2009. I know that it is a long time from now, but i am in a nursing school and cant to it any other way.
Anyways, I live in a Northern Michigan and we have some good size trees, such as red pine, white pine, and some cedar. Although it is hard to come across the property that you can buy with big trees on it. I have resently found a property with some red pine on it, and now i have a question to all. Is Red Pine a good log home building material? And, what is the best tree to build a log home?
Thanks for reading, ivan.


Use what you got, however, it's probably more important to watch out for certain trees that would be undesirable. Such trees would be beetle infested pine that has blue fungus, any tree that has rot or has been banged around and cut bad in the process, and any other tree type that may have a disease. Trees that have very little taper are ideal for log homes too. :-)

[Shark]

I am planing to take a two day class in 2009. I know that it is a long time from now, but i am in a nursing school and cant to it any other way.
Anyways, I live in a Northern Michigan and we have some good size trees, such as red pine, white pine, and some cedar. Although it is hard to come across the property that you can buy with big trees on it. I have resently found a property with some red pine on it, and now i have a question to all. Is Red Pine a good log home building material? And, what is the best tree to build a log home?
Thanks for reading, ivan.

Yep red pine is good. That's what we're using & in fact they came out of Michigan as well.

[Timberwolf]

[quote=ivanshayka]I am planing to take a two day class in 2009. I know that it is a long time from now, but i am in a nursing school and cant to it any other way.
Anyways, I live in a Northern Michigan and we have some good size trees, such as red pine, white pine, and some cedar. Although it is hard to come across the property that you can buy with big trees on it. I have resently found a property with some red pine on it, and now i have a question to all. Is Red Pine a good log home building material? And, what is the best tree to build a log home?
Thanks for reading, ivan.


Use what you got, however, it's probably more important to watch out for certain trees that would be undesirable. Such trees would be beetle infested pine that has blue fungus, any tree that has rot or has been banged around and cut bad in the process, and any other tree type that may have a disease. Trees that have very little taper are ideal for log homes too. :-)
--------------------------------------------
I would have to disagree on the statement of beetle killed trees being bad. Actually covered quite a bit in class. Beetle kill can make great logs, as long as they haven't been standing so long they rot.

Cedar can be weak, but it has it's uses (think deck and siding boards).

Timberwolf.

[GENE13]

[quote=ivanshayka]I am planing to take a two day class in 2009. I know that it is a long time from now, but i am in a nursing school and cant to it any other way.
Anyways, I live in a Northern Michigan and we have some good size trees, such as red pine, white pine, and some cedar. Although it is hard to come across the property that you can buy with big trees on it. I have resently found a property with some red pine on it, and now i have a question to all. Is Red Pine a good log home building material? And, what is the best tree to build a log home?
Thanks for reading, ivan.


Use what you got, however, it's probably more important to watch out for certain trees that would be undesirable. Such trees would be beetle infested pine that has blue fungus, any tree that has rot or has been banged around and cut bad in the process, and any other tree type that may have a disease. Trees that have very little taper are ideal for log homes too. :-)
--------------------------------------------
I would have to disagree on the statement of beetle killed trees being bad. Actually covered quite a bit in class. Beetle kill can make great logs, as long as they haven't been standing so long they rot.

Cedar can be weak, but it has it's uses (think deck and siding boards).

Timberwolf.


I never said beetle killed trees are bad to use, I said , quote: Such trees would be beetle infested pine that has blue fungus," the two key words are BLUE FUNGUS, or blue tint as it is sometimes called.

Even though Southern Pine Beetle (SPB) received the blame for the death of these trees, it alone is only partially responsible. An associate of the SPB, Ophiostoma minus, a fungal microorganism better known as "blue stain", occupies an important role in the life and death of bark beetles and their hosts. During colonization, female beetles tunnel throughout the phloem tissue of the tree where they lay their eggs. As carriers of O. minus, the beetles induce thousands of low dosage fungal inoculations over a large portion of the tree bole allowing the fungus to become well established throughout the phloem before invading the sapwood (xylem). Sapwood occlusion by O. minus contributes to the quick death of SPB-attacked trees, which is critical to SPB since the colonized sections of the tree must die for the beetles to successfully reproduce.

I have several acres of these pines, a few still standing and 90% or so dead and worthless. The other 10% that are still standing I wouldn't chance building with them, though they might be ok, it's not worth all the labor, time and money to find out later you missed one or two that had blue tint. However, in some other parts of the country, the SPB still hasn't hit, or hasn't been hit as hard. Those trees with little to no SPB would be fine to use. Until you see first hand the damage done by the SPB in an area that is hit hard, there is almost no way to describe the devastation, it's truly an ugly site. One other thing, if you do use SPB trees, better look them over really well, and good luck. :-)

[Timberwolf]

I was aware of the fungus, I was not aware that it affected the strength of the tree for building. Ophiostoma minus (a vascular stain fungus, related to sapstain fungus; which is prevelent in pine logs that have been improperly handled after harvest, but not exactly the same). I've never heard of either harming the strength of the wood, only the resale value for finished lumber.

[GENE13]

I was aware of the fungus, I was not aware that it affected the strength of the tree for building. Ophiostoma minus (a vascular stain fungus, related to sapstain fungus; which is prevelent in pine logs that have been improperly handled after harvest, but not exactly the same). I've never heard of either harming the strength of the wood, only the resale value for finished lumber.


Beetles are also carriers of O. minus!!!!!!!!

Until you actually cut the tree and examine it closely, you will not know if it is usable or not, and then it's still a guessing game. I'm a Forest Stewart not an expert, however, our Forestry Dept tells me that it's better to mill the pine and use it, than to use the whole log. This is the same way they handled the wormy chestnut blight. Beetle killed trees, are DEAD trees that are still standing, yet like all dead wood unless it is treated or cared for it will rot. That is what these trees are doing, rotting right where they stand.

Also as you mentioned, improperly handling after harvest can lead to O.minus, "as I advise in my earlier thread on what to watch out for, quote: any tree that has rot or has been banged around and cut bad in the process" that is only one reason why I advised against using logs that have been improperly handled.

By the way I have cut down standing pines that from the outside looked good, then they would hit the ground and break into 4 pieces, this says nothing about all the soft spots you'll discover in the log. Although using beetle killed logs is feasible,"if you get to the tree early enough" to be completely honest, I would advise extreme CAUTION and in MY OPINION they should be used only as a last resort like in a small building. I just believe there are better options out there. The best use of these pines would be to mill them. :-)

[greenthumb]

Gene, I've been reading a little more about the blue stain fungi, O. minus since you posted. Apparently there is little reason to exclude the use of trees due to the presence of blue stain:

"Blue stain is not mold. Blue stain, or sap stain, is a bluish or grayish black discoloration of the sapwood caused by the growth of certain dark-colored fungi on the surface and interior of the wood. Blue stain can occur under the same conditions that favor the growth of other fungi."

"Under Southern Pine Inspection Bureau grading rules, stain, and discoloration due to exposure to the elements, are characteristics allowed on Southern Pine lumber. Stain is an appearance characteristic only and is allowed in varying degrees in all lumber grades. It does not affect lumber strength or utility, nor does it pose any health risk."
- from this site: http://www.southernpine.com/mold.shtml

That said, I do agree with you on some points- in southern states, where the climate is warmer and more humid, beetle killed trees can be used, but only quickly after being killed. I would not trust trees standing longer than 3-6 months, depending on conditions. Trees tend to rot much faster in warm moist conditions. I would avoid moving beetle infested trees from site to site, to prevent the spread of beetles. Once a tree is down, steps can be taken to prevent the further decay of the wood if it is still in good condition. These techniques are covered in class and the members section.

Western climates are different, and many folks have built with beetle killed trees with no problems. The time from the death of the tree, to point of no return in regard to suitability for building, is somewhat longer.

There is no simple answer. ; )

To return to the original question, Ivan- I'd advise not to look for logs until you've taken the class. In fact, look at land, but don't buy it until after the class. I got a decent deal on mine, but it might have been better if I'd waited until after the class. Instead, save your cash, live cheap, and learn as much as possible about conventional constructions- framing, plumbing, electrical, etc. If you're at a tech school, see if you can pick up some extra classes in these areas, or make friends with the folks taking those classes- they might be good guys to call on later for their expertise and help. Hope that helps(though it may not be what you're looking for- LOL).

Andy

[GENE13]

Gene, I've been reading a little more about the blue stain fungi, O. minus since you posted. Apparently there is little reason to exclude the use of trees due to the presence of blue stain:

"Blue stain is not mold. Blue stain, or sap stain, is a bluish or grayish black discoloration of the sapwood caused by the growth of certain dark-colored fungi on the surface and interior of the wood. Blue stain can occur under the same conditions that favor the growth of other fungi."

"Under Southern Pine Inspection Bureau grading rules, stain, and discoloration due to exposure to the elements, are characteristics allowed on Southern Pine lumber. Stain is an appearance characteristic only and is allowed in varying degrees in all lumber grades. It does not affect lumber strength or utility, nor does it pose any health risk."
- from this site: http://www.southernpine.com/mold.shtml

That said, I do agree with you on some points- in southern states, where the climate is warmer and more humid, beetle killed trees can be used, but only quickly after being killed. I would not trust trees standing longer than 3-6 months, depending on conditions. Trees tend to rot much faster in warm moist conditions. I would avoid moving beetle infested trees from site to site, to prevent the spread of beetles. Once a tree is down, steps can be taken to prevent the further decay of the wood if it is still in good condition. These techniques are covered in class and the members section.

Western climates are different, and many folks have built with beetle killed trees with no problems. The time from the death of the tree, to point of no return in regard to suitability for building, is somewhat longer.

There is no simple answer. ; )

To return to the original question, Ivan- I'd advise not to look for logs until you've taken the class. In fact, look at land, but don't buy it until after the class. I got a decent deal on mine, but it might have been better if I'd waited until after the class. Instead, save your cash, live cheap, and learn as much as possible about conventional constructions- framing, plumbing, electrical, etc. If you're at a tech school, see if you can pick up some extra classes in these areas, or make friends with the folks taking those classes- they might be good guys to call on later for their expertise and help. Hope that helps(though it may not be what you're looking for- LOL).

Andy





Andy, there are many different kinds of beetles, they have been with us all for a long time, every now and then a beetle would go somewhat unchecked and would kill a few trees here and there, that is very common, and I'm sure that this is the same case in which some have built with them in the past. If the weather was cold enough that in itself probably was why they got away with it, cause cold weather will kill them faster than anything else.

What I'm talking about, and what the news as been reporting about is a MAJOR OUT BREAK, (I did say MAJOR) these things are TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL. These beetles during a major out break , such as we have experienced in the south are capable of QUICK KILLING a tree in no time flat.

The Blue Stain that you are commenting on is environmental "Under Southern Pine Inspection Bureau grading rules, stain, and discoloration due to exposure to the elements"........ the key here is they are referring to exposure to the elements being the cause, NOT due to BEETLE KILL. As I mentioned in my earlier thread, improper handling such as banging around a log or cutting into it can cause blue tint, however, this type alone wouldn't be much of a threat as that of the Beetle which actually girdles the tree, thus killing it.

Beetles cause damage by boring under the bark, disturbing the natural processes of the tree. This can be a problem in itself, but the primary, lethal danger is a fungus that the beetles transport. Blue stain fungus will lead to a quick decline by clogging the tree's vascular system. Once in a tree, blue stain fungus is untreatable. It could kill your tree in one season, and is almost certain to kill it within 3 years.

Click on this link for the above statement: http://www.pinery.org/pinebeetle.htm
Clink here to see beetles: http://ag.arizona.edu/extension/fh/bark_beetle.html
Just to name a few: There is John-Paul-George and one called Ringo, LOL

This as been a good debate Andy, people really need to look at this one really hard before they invest a lot of time and money into it.

The bottom line is: 1. I think we all agree the Beetle can and will kill trees. 2. Whenever you buy these logs can you tell when the tree was first attacked, because it better be in the very early stage of infestation. 3. We all know these Beetle killed trees already have a defect, remember "Once in a tree, blue stain fungus is untreatable" do you really want to spend your own money on those logs, put in months of hard work into them, are you willing to take all the risk, and do you honestly think it'll last as long, as the same logs without beetle kill. 4. Most people living in colder areas hasn't seen this problem first hand yet, however, they are moving your way now because or rising temperatures and drought conditions. When they do hit you'll have a totally different outlook on the use of those beetle killed trees, and so will your local lumber mills 5. In my opinion for whatever it may be worth ( $00.00) the safest bet is to cut them down and have them milled while they are still in their first phase. Most loggers and lumber mills will hate them, but when it comes to selling them, some (not all) will tell ya there's no better tree for the money.

And to quote Forest Gump: That is all I have to say about that. :-()

[greenthumb]

Thanks for posting those links. I don't consider myself an expert on beetles or fungi, so I will definitely look into this further.(though I don't have any plans to use beetle killed trees.)

Andy