Rebar & Logs

[wenzel_777]

Hey everyone---Just a general question about the rebar that suspends the logs in the Butt & Pass style...Metal & wood & how they react....doesn't the metal rebar create moisture inside of the logs & won't that lead to rot? I would think that maybe the wood will grow tighter to the rebar, but at the same time I would think it would still cause moisture concerns...Thanks-Brett H.

[hemlock77]

I don't imagine it would be any more of an issue than nailing dimenitional limber with metal nails. You could always use extra borate solution or impel rods around pinned areas to prevent fungal growth, for added peace of mind.
Stu
http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/

[Klapton]

The rebar pins are inside the chining. (All the vertical ones, anyway). The only pins that are exposed are the ones on the end pinning the pass log through into the butt log. But even so, one of the keys to the LHBA method is to build large overhangs on the roof, so the logs only get wet during very windy rainstorms. If/when you take the class, you will see Skip's house first-hand, and any worries you have about moisture and rot will go away.

[rocklock]

These are two photo's of rebar that have been exposed to Washington's weather for over one year... I cut out the logs from my well shed to make a window.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/flintlock1/IMG_2614.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/flintlock1/IMG_2615.jpg
It is clear that the rebar is rusted - it may have been rusted before it went in...
The wood is not rotting, it is stained and the wood fibers are clearly holding the rebar...

[Simple Mind]

Dave, great pic

[wenzel_777]

Hem, Klap, and Rock...Thanks for clearing that all up for me!- Brett

[counterfit]

I'm looking at the photos and cant tell if that amount of corrosion and rust is a good thing or not, I imagine that there will initially be some due to the green wood and exposure before the chinking gets put in place but is there a continual rusting away of the rebar that you need to be concerned about? or does it get to the point pictured and pretty much stop due to no exposure to the elements.


Thanks in advance.

[sparky]

A couple of things to think about. If you get rebar delivered without some sort of rust it will be a miracle! If it arrives without any rust the only way you will keep it from developing some sort of surface oxidation (AKA rust) will be to put it under your bed. :) Once you have driven it into the center of your logs it will no longer be exposed to the major elements. Once your logs are stacked they will begin drying taking the moisture content necessary for rusting the rebar lower and lower. So no worries, all in all I would say you only have maybe 200 years! hahaha

Sparky

[rreidnauer]

If it can survive in concrete, it will survive in wood.


You know what Skip would say about this discussion. ;-)

[pinecone pam]

OK you two. My question is (for you future buillders) how do we keep that rust from rebar from running down our pretty logs and staining them during the stacking process, cause you know that is surely has to rain sometime before the roof goes on. I have used every thing I have ever heard of and some of it will not come off. I have places where dispite every recipe, I still have shadows. Any ideas?

[hemlock77]

Cob blasting might work, it all depends how far into the wood staining has occured. You can just pick up one of those cheap gravety feed blasters(holds about a quart of media). That way if it doesn't work you are only out $60 retail. If that doesn't work, and you plan on staining you can always try to match the color. If that doesn't work just enjoy the "Rustic" charm;

Pam by the way I couldn't find link in members section to your build. With all the snow and cold holding us up, I need more insparatoin.
Stu
http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/hemlock77/

[sparky]

Hello Pam, the best formula I have found for cleaning logs is:
3 Qt's warm water
1/2 cup cascade dish soap (powder)
1/4 cup Oxi clean laundry booster
stir until dissolved
add additional Qt. of warm water
spray on logs let set for several minutes and scrub with med. bristle brush.

I found this formula on Tony's site: Bearfortlodge. It works remarkable well.

Another great product to remove rust stains on wood is Oxalic acid. My concern is that your logs are already stained and sealed. I am not sure that Oxalic acid won't screw with your beautiful stain.
If you try either idea mix up a small batch and do a small out of the way site first and see how it does. Hope this helps.

Sparky

[sparky]

Hey Stu, until Pam gets her pictures up here is a little teaser!
http://i25.tinypic.com/i5y9h2.jpg
Can't help but see all the terrible rust stains! Ya! Right! :)

Sparky

[hemlock77]

Thanks, that hit the spot. Can't wait to see detailed pics.

[Loghomeguy]

A couple of preventative things you can do during the stacking process: just put a small dab of silicone sealant over the top of the driven rebar or a small spray of clear coating on the exposed rebar only as you go, you can make a small cardboard cut-out for spraying the exposed rebar between the logs.
The logs will even in color time too. I was also thinking that when I get super-rich or want to build right by the ocean I would get some of that green epoxy-coated rebar they use in bridges for state highways especially oceanside, there is also hot-dip galvanized rebar. <a href="http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,407,451.cfm">http://www.galvanizeit.org/showContent,407,451.cfm</a>
There has to be a pile of that left over somewhere next to a project that Kiewit is just dying for one of us to rid them of . Best wishes for your success. Mikey

[pinecone pam]

You know, I tried all of that. Most of it came out (this was all back before stain), but some stains were stubborn. They are still there. I like Michaels idea of coated rebar best! I need to work on the new inside marks, luckily theres only one.

[Shark]

You know, I tried all of that. Most of it came out (this was all back before stain), but some stains were stubborn. They are still there. I like Michaels idea of coated rebar best! I need to work on the new inside marks, luckily theres only one.


I do not know what it does to wood or stain, but something like CLR....specifically made to get rid of rust stains.

The coated rebar seems like a good idea, but remember, the cut ends won't be coated. If you know anyone in the road-building industry, that's usually what they use is the green coated stuff.

[huffjohndeb]

TimberLock screws do not rust 250 10" self drilling & countersinking (no predilling required) for $100 why save $100 to spend $500 in labor and aggravation. Best of all no sideways pounding required just a decent cordless drill and 5/16" socket bit included in the box of screws.

[Klapton]

huffjohndeb,

Have you used the TimberLock screws on your house yet? I have a few questions about them:

1) Do you still pre-drill the top / outer log?

2) Will the screw "pull" on the lower/inner log at all?

3) Will these screws still have the same load-bearing qualities of driven rebar?

[rreidnauer]

TimberLock screws do not rust 250 10" self drilling & countersinking (no predilling required) for $100 why save $100 to spend $500 in labor and aggravation. Best of all no sideways pounding required just a decent cordless drill and 5/16" socket bit included in the box of screws.
. . . . . but Timberlock screws should NOT be used unless you are wanting to compromise the anti-settling benefits of rebar.

[Timber]

Klapton Wrote
Anyone used them?


huffjohndeb,

Have you used the TimberLock screws on your house yet? I have a few questions about them:

1) Do you still pre-drill the top / outer log?

2) Will the screw "pull" on the lower/inner log at all?

3) Will these screws still have the same load-bearing qualities of driven rebar?


MY Guess would be no way. I helped install second floor joist and asked the general since it was temporary if he could just use screws on the joist into the u hangers.
Said he could but it would not have same shear holding power as nails. I do drywall and I know screws hold better than nails in sheet rock so his answer surprised me. Rebar is tuff stuff-so my guess is rebar is far better

Ron

[huffjohndeb]

I agree with Rod about not using timberlock for the vertical wall spikes (Think pound rebar down). I would only use Timberlock screws in horizontal (Think pound rebar sideways) applications especially where the fastener will be exposed. I drilled a countersink hole so that the screws would go in deep enough from the pass log to the butt log to bolt the logs securely.

[Timber]

Klapton Wrote
Anyone used them?


huffjohndeb,

Have you used the TimberLock screws on your house yet? I have a few questions about them:

1) Do you still pre-drill the top / outer log?

2) Will the screw "pull" on the lower/inner log at all?

3) Will these screws still have the same load-bearing qualities of driven rebar?


MY Guess would be no way. I helped install second floor joist and asked the general since it was temporary if he could just use screws on the joist into the u hangers.
Said he could but it would not have same shear holding power as nails. I do drywall and I know screws hold better than nails in sheet rock so his answer surprised me. Rebar is tuff stuff-so my guess is rebar is far better

Ron

http://www.contractortalk.com/f50/deck-screws-vs-joist-nails-48211/ its on the link

[jbeall]

Timberlock screws should NOT be used unless you are wanting to compromise the anti-settling benefits of rebar.

I had been wondering if the screws will cause issues when the log tries to shrink about it's center, and the screwthreads try and prevent it from changing size... at any rate, could you elaborate on your statement in a bit more detail?

This has specific application to me and the log fort we're working on--we're thinking we'll be using very small logs (4", maybe--whatever we can get for free), and it has cross my mind that perhaps instead of driving nails we would screw things in.

-Josh

[Loghomeguy]

The timberlock screw idea is not at all a good one IMHO,

the reason being: the rebar does a twofold job, not only does it cleave the top log to the bottom log, it is THICK, (I use 5/8 not 1/2) the girth or thickness of the rebar helps prevent roll out.

After all, if you sectioned the wall logs you basically have one circle sitting on top of another, while screws will hold the top log down on the bottom log , are they thick enough and strong enough to prevent roll out?

OK I would use 5/8 titanium lags, but really how thick are these timber-lock things?

The holding power of rebar in logs is tremendous as pointed out graphically in ROCK LOCK's great post and picture earlier. It is cheaper, and more reliable and well proven, it is nearly impossible to pry logs apart once the rebar is in them,,,,,

IMHO

Mikey class of journeyman's 1987

[rreidnauer]

I had been wondering if the screws will cause issues when the log tries to shrink about it's center, and the screwthreads try and prevent it from changing size... at any rate, could you elaborate on your statement in a bit more detail?
Look up a picture of Timberlock screws. You'll notice a large portion of the screw is not threaded. This smooth shank will do nothing in the prevention of upper log settling. Your home will be a massive failure if you build it with the assumption that the Timberlock screws will prevent settling.