Tounge and Groove Board

[mcdonis]

Forgive me if this belongs in the member section, but I thought this might be ok to ask.....


Has anyone ever tried to make your own T&G board? Its so darn expensive retail, I was wondering if anyone had tried to make it themselves.

[charner]

My plans are to get a portable sawmill and
cut my own lumber, at least the joists and rafters.
I have been thinking about the t&g though.
The only thing is that the wood must be dried properly
and takes a while by either solar kiln or air drying.
And I'm not sure about it lining up correctly. I'd rather
not have warps in my flooring. But it is an option
if done properly.

I'm looking at buying from http://www.logosol.com
shortly. They have a free video that they send you
which is somewhat helpful. I have also looked into
alaskan sawmills but haven't found one that I felt
comfortable with. Maybe someone w/ experience
can better share info about that.

[spin05]

The guy that came out and cut me some lumber had a WOODMIZER mill.It worked great its got a big band saw blade on it.I would like to have one but i think there expensive. good luck

[Woodman]

Do you have the name and contact info for the guy that came out to your place with the WOODMIZER? What part of Washington are you located?

[Steve]

There's a guy listed in our Million Dollar Rolodex that has a woodmizer for hire. If I remember correctly his name is Simon...

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10

Steve

[spin05]

the guy that did mine is out of the town of concrete.Are the guy building in the gorge area? If so i just saw a guy i think out of Castle Rock that does it.If you like i will look up his name

[Mark]

I think your best bet would be a very good hand router. You will have to have custom bits made probably. But anyway once you get the proper bits to make the cuts on either side of the board, you would have to constantly check the fit and level of cut on both sides. (this will take a long time :cry:

Good luck friend :)

[hawkiye]

I did a google search and there are plenty of router bit sets available. I would think you would want to use a table router to keep everything more uniform or a jig on a hand router or make your own table with a straight edge for a guide on one side.

Heres the search URL:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tongue+and+groove+router+bit&btnG=Google+Search

Blayne

[Bart Brown]

I have looked at many portable saw mills. The big band saws are cool but can be expensive to buy. 15-25K for one that will cut long beams and you need to replace bands daily or more if your logs are dirty. Not cheap. The Logosol looked good but it is made from aluminum which can be hard to fix if you bend it. Take a look on the net at procut portable saw mills. I just built one of these. With a new 3120 Husky saw I am milling timber for under $2500 plus a little welding time. It's worth a look anyway. Bart

[switherow]

We're kinda bouncing topics on this post, but on the subject of portable saw mills:

http://www.hud-son.com/chainsaw_mill.htm

I'm thinking about trying out the "Boardmaster" at the bottom.

[gregorama]

To make T&G, I'd use a table saw and dado blade- you can insert spacers in the blade pattern to make the toungue side, and replace the spacers with blade for the groove. IMHO, a router might wobble on the edge of a 2x6 and be a bit more setup and effort..

[Fred]

While I'm sure a router can do this, unless you have a BIG router (like 3 HP ), your're going to be going real slow, and worse, you may stress your router to death.

I think the woodworking machine that is designed for that sort of job is called a shaper ( woodworkers should feel free to correct me).

The Dado blade idea with a decent table saw sounds like a better idea.

[JeffandSara]

Hey, guys....

Quick question. How much board feet of t and g are you talking about?

I stained every stick of t and g for our ceiling pretty much single-handedly, and most of it for the second and third floors as well (we stained the first floor in place). For this house, that was THOUSANDS of 14 foot boards, as I recall. And it was time intensive work.

Seems like making your own t and g would only be labor/time feasible if you were using something very mechanized (like maybe a Logosol or one of those automatic deals) or you weren't going to be using a lot of t and g.

Sara :D

PS-- 2/11/05.... I thought that we'd done 2500 t and g boards, but Jeff informed me that it was a bit less than 1500, and that that's considered "hundreds" not "thousands". My mistake. :lol:

[gregorama]

True, a shaper is the right tool- it's a large table mounted router, really. A heavy-duty (3HP, 1/2") router in a sturdy table should do the trick, too. As for staining, I stained my ceiling T&G with a HVLP sprayer, before hanging them up; worked really fast and slick, with little overspray. You'd have to do the math on efficiency; a new tool :lol: and lower wood cost, or easier and faster to pay for it. I'm a tool guy, and cheap to boot.

Greg

[Fred]

It'd be easy enough to do a test to see how fast you can process a board, (both edges) add a handling time and multiply that by the square/linear footage necessary.

If you have lots of "free" time ( or a son or daughter) it might be worthwhile, otherwise you might be better off finding someone with semi automated equipment. Maybe you can give them wood you've cut to work on?

I don't know (seeing as I've never peeked inside), but I suspect, that shapers are much heavier duty and better able to handle 1000's of linear feet of work than even a biggest, badest, router can with less wear and tear.

Get a used one, sell it afterwards. -)

[KentGRD]

I have been looking into using SIP panels that come in many large sizes 4x8 4x12.... They have a top side with OSB glued to a 6-12 inch foam core with with OSB , Drywall , or Pine T&G siding for the inside facing.

Small ones can be lifted by manpower and they look to go up quick and might really speed up the roof process greatly. Once they are installed slap on your regular shingle or metal roof and you are ready to rock and roll.

This same stuff might work good for gable ends as well and their R-values are tremendous.

Have not done a price comparision but time and wood T&G are not cheap.

Comments please!!!

[ChainsawGrandpa]

I'm building a Procut mill. I will substitute a vertical shaft
lawn tractor engine and save my nice Stihl for other work.
I have used a Wood Mizer and they are wonderful. Also used
the circular saw mill out of New Zealand. They are fast for
through & through milling, but very slow when cutting for
grade. I wasn't impressed but have talked with another
member who was impressed. You mileage may vary. I'm
thinking the Procut out of Canada might be the best way to
go but I'll know more when the mill is finished in a few months.

A router and table will work but the router needs to be big
and you might need several. The bearing don't last a long
time in that type of hard application. You will need a power
feed (I like Hol-zer) witha router table or shaper so the
cutters will follow the deviation of the lumber.

I used to have a five head mill. This is the ideal tool. It will
cut the cope & profile on the edges and surface the top and
bottom in one pass. The lumber doesn't even need to be real
accurate for tolerance. A high power mill will take an over-
size board and cut to size very quickly. I bought the mill for
$500. Wish I had it back...each cutterhead (then) was about
$1,250!! The mill had to be moved and I was happy to sell it
for what I paid.

-Rick Buchanan

[gregorama]

Hi Kent- I'm thinking the same thing re: structural panels; Eagle Panels, to be exact. I'm in the process of working out my final size/design before I get a quote; I'm sure they're not cheap, but time, as they say, is money. There is sure dough to be saved by taking your time, if you have alternate housing, but I'll be moving my family and building at the same time, and 10 years just won't cut it for my wife (or me!). Let me know if you find out any more information about it; it's a big part of the building, so I'm focusing a lot of mental energy on the roof....

Greg

[KentGRD]

Great Minds Think Alike!!

Eagle sent me the brochure but no price lists. I could not determine the proper method to fasten them either since it looks like they run them from left to right along the roof. Is there a combo of glue and screws ? Is the roof design using purlins running left to right or using skips method of 4x10 rafters going down.

The other question I had is there a loss of structural integrity since you no longer have the matrix of 2xt&G holding the roof on. ?

[gregorama]

The way I read it, you can use the 4x10 rafters and lay the panels (insulation and sheeting only) from gable to gable, across them. In my 40x40 plan, I think I'm going to set 2 purlins and use "structural roofing panels" with integral 2x12's; set from peak to purlin, they'll easily span 20 horizontal feet in a 6/12 situation. My design snow load is 50 PSF, and they should slap down pretty easily. I'm not up on the actual fasteners, but it appears that they're essentially really long nails with a washer head. I'm also not sure how to run wiring behind the T&G, if that's possible; I'm going to the Seattle Home Show this month; I'm sure there will be a manufacturer there. I'll let you know what I find!

Greg

[rreidnauer]

I'm gonna give making T+G a try. I want to get a Hud-son Oscar 28 bandmill, and try a table saw attachment,

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00903214000

with T+G bits,

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00923302000

So, anyhow, I figured out that my plans call for just over 5100 s.f. between the floors and roof. Now, I'm starting to think that I'm gonna look for bargain T+G if at all possible. That's A LOT of grooving, even if I choose to make 10 inch wide boards.[/u]

[gregorama]

Looks like a neat attachment; those cutter heads just bolt to that blade thing? I'd hope they're secure at 10K RPM and the vibration of cutting! :shock: I see they attach to a planer/molder. Is that table saw attachment designed to turn your saw into a molder? Pretty cool, if it works! Are those heads carbide tipped? When you sharpen them, the fit will change; I wonder if its enough to worry about. If they're just steel, you'll go through a few in a 4 miles of cutting! 2x6x 4 edges per sq ft x 5100 = a LOT of sawdust! You'll save a ton of dough, though.. good luck!

[rreidnauer]

Yea, the thing looks a little scarey, don't it? They sort of "bolt through" both by passing through and "jamming" the bit into the adapter. Yes, it is made for use on a table saw, and the one advantage over a T+G router bit is, this cutter is able to make a wider cut. (I think up to a full inch or more vs. the typical router's 3/4" max) I'm thinking about an offset tongue to deal with the thicker boards, of course, this will require an additional cut to complete the board.

The blades are not carbide though. (sure would be nice, huh?) I'm not sure what to expect for life of the cutters, but if I had to go through a couple sets to get all my wood cut, I could live with that. Sharpening is definitely limited due to the nature of the cut. Sear's old style only used two cutters, so I imagine the change was made to extend the life of the cutters. Also, you only need to set the depth of the cutters so only the "fingers" of the cutting edge will cut wood if your boards are already cut to width. That should save time and wear.

Wow, 4 miles. Yea, I may consider bumping up to 2x8 or even 2x10 to reduce the workload. Personally, I think a wider board looks good up on the cathedral ceilings. (where 3300 s.f of the lumber will be needed) Probably stick to 2x6 on the floors to maximize nailing effectiveness.

I know what you mean by a LOT of sawdust. I build raised panel doors, and there is no end to the piles created. Shame I can't find a use for it like the industries have. Never thought I'd see homes being built out of woodchips. :wink:

[spin05]

Try looking into the atlas roofing nailboard insultion www.atlas roofing.com the supplier told me to just buy the insulation only, then get my own 1/2in plywood and screw it down per the orignal manufactures spec.Just a thought to save some cash

scott

[salinamatt]

We accidentally stumbled upon a mill near us and the guy that runs it is willing to tongue and groove our 2x6 boards for a reasonable price. We cut down our own logs so we plan on using everything we have for lumber and flooring to save money.
So our plan at this point is to hire someone with a portable mill to cut our lumber and 2x6 boards, then we will take the boards to the mill for the tongue and groove.
I priced it all out at one point and it was way cheaper then buying the 2x6 t&g outright.
I will let you all know how the process goes. We should be ready to get our lumber cut within a few weeks.

[Ellsworth]

We accidentally stumbled upon a mill near us and the guy that runs it is willing to tongue and groove our 2x6 boards for a reasonable price. We cut down our own logs so we plan on using everything we have for lumber and flooring to save money.

Is he going to kiln dry it for you?

Board and Batton is a great siding to use when you have green lumber because it won't be affected by shrinking boards if properly installed. T&G will be affected, so kiln dried is ideal.

[salinamatt]

The logs that we are getting the 2x6 boards from came from the hayman burn area here. We had alot of fires here a couple of years ago and one of them burned over 150k acres.
The trees are totally dry because of this. The bark literally comes off of them and they have a carmelized color effect to them. They are quite beautiful.

[Ellsworth]

Now that sounds fantastic, a nice carmelized color... very neat :)

[rreidnauer]

WOW, sweet deal. 150,000 acres of kiln dried lumber with "fall off the bone" bark. I'm envious to say the least. Are you aquiring the logs for free? (obviously transporting is a cost)

[salinamatt]

The forest service charged us $100 for about 140 logs.
The cost that went into getting them included equipment needed, labor, vehicle maintanance and of course transporting.
My husband cut down every one of them himself and between him, me and a few others, we got them limbed up. Then we spent alot of time figuring out how to get them to a staging area so the logging truck could reach them. We ended up renting a bulldozer to drag them down the road.
It was an interesting experience since we did it in the dead of winter 2 hours away from our land. I'm glad that we can actually say that we logged out the trees ourselves but unfortunately, most of the burned logs are inaccessible so we basically got all of the best ones for a log home. There is still alot left that we plan on returning and getting to use for interior decoration and furniture.
There are some pics of the logs on our website and I'll post more pics as we get them debarked so everyone can see their carmalized coloring.

[Kama]

I've been chewing on this tongue and groove idea for a while now and I have an idea.

Using a spline to connect the boards. There is a rounter bit that cuts a 1/8"-1/4" groove into the side of a board for "T" molding. Its not a typical router bit. It's more like a saw blade mounted sideways with four carbide tips. It cuts faster than the typical bit and doesn't put so much strain on the router. I just received a quote from a local steel supplier for 1/4" by 3/4" wide flat bar: $7.15 for 20 ft. Using a hardwood spline would to but that's a lot of milling. I picked 1/4" flat bar, because that is what came to mind first. 1/8" steel could work just as well. I wouldn't go 1/8" with wood though.

I use splines all the time in my work. If the wrong wood is used the spline will fracture defeating the purpose. Steel or metal will be consistant, strong enough and cheaper than using a wood spline (time and money combined).

The only thing I can think of that might be an isssue is the moisture in the wood causing the steel to rust, than you might get some staining from it bleeding into the wood. A cheap primer coat would fix that though.

Andy

[Kama]

I realized that I didn't explain the process all of the way though.

Take your 2x whatever size board, put a 7/16" groove into both sides of the board using the " T" molding router bit or the dado blade on a table saw. Place your first board down, nail into the groove just like normal. Place your 3/4" spline into the groove. The spline should be sticking out from the side of the board by 3/8". You now have a tongue for the next board to mate to.

I would suggest making the groove the same distance from the bottom of the flooring and a little deeper than 3/4" total so you don't end up with a gap in your joint. The reason for using the bottom is that if you have a gap between the flooring and floor joist there is more potential for squeaking or failure of the system. Also try to have your flooring so it will be cup down. The growth rings will be opposite of what you would expect if you look at the end grain. The wider the board the more likely you'll get cupping. The reason for doing this is so you have the board touching the joist at two points instead of one, which is more stable for several reasons. I won't bore you with the details.

You can sand the joints using a sander for wood floors. Big floor sanders for wood floors are cheap enough to rent that this should still have the cost below having T&G milled for the whole house.

Andy

[ets80]

not worth the time or expense if its a one time thing. Bite the bullet and buy it already completed

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Speaking of T & G, has anyone else been pricing lately? I came across some 4 inch I believe <dang forgot my ginko again> might have been 6 inch white pine for sixty cents a sq ft. Is this a decent price?

[blane]

I am guessing it is 6 inch, can't remember ever seeing it in 4. But yes that is a good price if it is a square foot price, usually it is priced by linear foot though and if that is the case that is an average price.
Speaking of T & G, has anyone else been pricing lately? I came across some 4 inch I believe <dang forgot my ginko again> might have been 6 inch white pine for sixty cents a sq ft. Is this a decent price?

[LogHomeFeverDan]

LOL Thanks Blane. I have been pouring over CL listings from like six cities. I thought I did a double take on the pricing. I wanted to make sure they were saying per sq ft and not linear foot. I need to go back and find it again.

[ivanshayka]

Some people in my area use /board foot, meaning 1 inch thick and 12x12 inch. So, if you by 2x? and they price it per board foot, be carefull, that may run you double. Just FYI.

[loghousenut]

If you buy a 2x6 at $.60 per board foot you will pay $.60 for each running foot of 2x6. It is a board foot.

[edkemper]

-What is a Board Foot?
Explanation and glossary of lumber terms by Professor Eugene Wengert. May 2, 2001

The definition of a board foot is rather simple--one board foot is a piece of lumber that is 1 foot wide, 1 foot long and 1 inch thick, or its volumetric equivalent.

[rocklock]

My only problem with LHN's comment is that the 2 by 6 T&G are made from 2 by 6's that are 5 1/2 inches wide and when you fit them together they become only 5 inches wide. So if you have 1000 linear feet of t&g you can only cover 833 sqft of roof.

[Tom Featherstone]

My only problem with LHN's comment is that the 2 by 6 T&G are made from 2 by 6's that are 5 1/2 inches wide and when you fit them together they become only 5 inches wide. So if you have 1000 linear feet of t&g you can only cover 833 sqft of roof.

C'Mon Dave,,, next your going to tell me that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4"? What's this world coming to? Those Lumber Barons cheating us again....:o

sorry Dave, couldn't resist..

[blane]

Confession, I did not understand all this before I ordered my T&g and came up way short, then when I ordered the second batch I did not calculate for culled boards and had to order again, I have learned so many hard lessons that others have learned by being smarter than me the easy way.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Someone said with a 6/12 roof on a 40' X 40' your ridgepole is 10'-15' above your "first floor". Is there a method to follow in choosing the pitch of the roof or am I getting into class questions? Also, how high are most walls if, in essence, you want a full second story? I realize with the cathedral ceiling you will lose some square footage unless you build true 16-18 foot walls. Am I correct?? or as usual all confused?

[blane]

If you buy stock plans they will tell you how high to make you ridge pole for a 6/12.
Someone said with a 6/12 roof on a 40' X 40' your ridgepole is 10'-15' above your "first floor". Is there a method to follow in choosing the pitch of the roof or am I getting into class questions? Also, how high are most walls if, in essence, you want a full second story? I realize with the cathedral ceiling you will lose some square footage unless you build true 16-18 foot walls. Am I correct?? or as usual all confused?

[loghousenut]

Someone said with a 6/12 roof on a 40' X 40' your ridgepole is 10'-15' above your "first floor". Is there a method to follow in choosing the pitch of the roof or am I getting into class questions? Also, how high are most walls if, in essence, you want a full second story? I realize with the cathedral ceiling you will lose some square footage unless you build true 16-18 foot walls. Am I correct?? or as usual all confused?

Blane had the right answer but to prevent a wrinkled brow as you draw and redraw your dream house, that 10'-15' figure won't hold water. We have a 22' Christmas tree in our 36x36. Our roof pitch is 6/12 and our walls ware fairly short. Don't sweat it. Figuring how tall or short your roof will be is simple and you can change your mind at any time in the build. We decided what pitch our roof would have the day before we set our ridgepole.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I wasn't attempting to figure out height of ridgepole as much as wall height. Again, I realize I'm pre class, but I am visualizing full eight foot walls on second floor.

[loghousenut]

More in class on this one but the good of it all is that the walls can sorta be however tall you want them to be. I'm sure our plans told us how tall to make our walls but it didn't matter. We liked the look of our place when we got 10 courses tall so we went to work on the roof. Our second floor side walls will be less than the 5-1/2' required for code so we will have cabinets/closets along the two side walls that are deep enough to give us the required head room. It all made sense to do it this way when we got to ten courses high.

This is a log home that you will build, for your own family, with your own hands. Most LHBA homes shoot for 7' or 8' second story walls. That decision has a lot to do with the size and character of your logs and it will be set in stone as your walls approach final height. There will be logs left over if you planned it right. You will build it stronger than it has to be and you will have a lot of leeway in a lot of areas. Your floor plan will have a lot of wiggle room as the roof and upper floors are all self supporting. Interior walls will go where the Boss/Wife says they will go with a few suggestions about plumbing and wiring. More in class but you'll come away knowing how it all works and knowing that you can do it.

I have built a number of log structures in the past and this is the first one that has had any plan on paper. Sometimes I think it is easier the other way.

[blane]

Yea LHN is right. I tried to follow my plans as close as possible and my walls wound up being right at 19' well the plans called for 20' so I got a 7/12 pitch because I did not shorten my supports by a foot. I was all worried about changing a few walls around and had an inspector come out to go over it with him and he said on non load bearing walls they really don't care where I put them even if it deviates from the plans, then he says "you do have plans" right?

I'm banking on what LHN always tells me. Most people will think you planed it that way.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

<smiling> Thanks LHN and Blane, now that makes sense. I'm the type that goes about a project and when someone asks about plans, I say, yeah I planned it and I have a very accurate picture of it in my head. Do you REALLY wanna start seeing what's in my head???

[loghousenut]

You'll do fine.