Advice needed..... desperately

[tommygun]

Well my mother is interested in a log home, however she wants a log home kit. She's convinced that it will be faster, than building one ourselves. I am not convinced of this, myself. What I'm asking for is ALL the advice you good people could provide me.
Thanks

Question 1. Is there a site I could go to, to look up log prices?

Question 2. Approximately how much would it cost to build a 1500- 2000 sq ft two story log home?
(just looking for a ballpark estimate)

Question 3. How much less would it cost to built it a single story?

Question 4. Approximately how long would it take to build a 1500-2000 sq ft one or two story log home?
( again, just looking for a ballpark estimate)

Question 5. Is there any useful information you can think of, that I've not asked for?

[rreidnauer]

Hi Tommygun. Welcome to LHBA.

Your grandmother may just be right about time, at least if money isn't your prime concern. Keeping prices low usually is accomplished by taking time to uncover the best deals. Basically, more money = faster/easier progress. As for your questions.....

1. Nope, no sites I know of that list prices. The market varies way too much. And loggers prices can literally change by the day, usually a deal worked out between the logger and the buyer. Additionally, avoiding the middleman, (the mills) your left with the source, (the logger) who's not likely reporting prices to the internet, since he likes to keep things local.

2. There's that question again. ;-) Well, it can be anything from a little to a lot. But going back to the beginning, the longer it takes, and the more effort you put in, the less it costs. Anyhow, I'd say a 30x30 two story, (1800 sq ft) could be built for under $50K, but some folks being extremely frugal have gotten by at less than $20K. I'm shooting for around 40~50K for my 35x35

3. Not terribly much less, unless you exceed 1200 sq ft. Then your logs start to get too long. It's not a problem for the structure, just that costs of materials and engineering goes up. At that point, it's more beneficial to build a 30x30 (1800 sf) two story over a 40x40 (1600 sf) single story. Really, it's only another 32 logs for a second floor, a few girders, a set of stairs, and another 170 sf of flooring.

4. Anywhere from a couple months to 10+ years. Seriously though, there's simply too many variables to give a ballpark. It goes right back to money. I'd say a very basic guess would be an average of 2 to 4 years plus prep/plan/gathering time. Did you read the story on the front page of the site? Built in 9 weeks!!!

5. Well, there's a wealth of information here. Overwhelming indeed. Even I loose track of information here. Take a look around, and if you come up with more questions, fire away.

[Rumble]

People just do not seem to realize that costing out the building of a home is an extremely variable calculation.

You can build a 2000 sq ft home for $100K (excluding land cost) or you can spend $500,00.

You can spend $2,000 to have plans drawn by a designer or spend $30,000 to have plans drawn by an architect.

You can spend $0 to be your own General Contractor or you can spend $60,000 to have a General Contractor

You can spend $10,000 on a kitchen that has very nice cabinetry or you can spend $60,000 on custom cherry cabinetry.

You can spend $5.000 on laminate flooring or $50,000 on exotic hardwood flooring.

Here's the real bottomline. The outside walls, framing and roof is relatively inexpensive. Doesn't matter if you are using logs, 2x4's, Sips, ICFs or whatever. The real expensive costs start adding up when labour costs get factored in. Labour costs are the real killer. The more you can do yourself (sweat equity), the lower your house cost will be. Example, you can get very nice hardwood flooring for $4/sqft but it costs $7/sqft to have it installed (thats $14,000 labour on 2000 sq ft). It can cost $500 in paint to paint the inside but it would cost $5,000 to have a painter do it. Framing/floor/roof lumber may cost $10,000 but the labour will cost $20,000. So, you get the idea. But the highest cost is the interior fit&finish. You can spend $1000 on a kitchen faucet or $150. Trim carpenters are very expensive. The trim around doors, basetrim, crown moulding, etc is very labour expensive. Having said that, it would be well advisable to have several skilled trades do the work rathur than DIY.......like electrical or plumbing or septic. But even here you can save money. Having the electrician install just the panel and wiring and you install the switches, recepticles, light fixtures will save you good coin. It all depends on how much work you are skilled enough to do.

Log home kits. Problem here is that you are paying the labour costs. You are paying the labour for the kit company to put the kit together (plus their markup). Then you pay labour to have the kit erected on your site. Even if you erect the kit yourself, you've still paid the labour and markup of the kit company.

If you have a source for raw logs, and the time and patience to process logs yourself (peel, dry, etc) then you can save money. But not everyone has source of logs. Not that easy to get logs. You may have a couple of acres of land outside of a city and there may not be any useable trees on the land. You could look at buying milled logs (air-dried or kiln dried) at substancially less money than a kit. You put the walls up yourself, cutout your own window and door openings and save a ton of coin. You've just by-passed the kit companies labour and markup. Of course, knowledge is power and one needs to educate themselves on building with logs......real logs or milled logs....the principles are basically the same.

[Rumble]

OK....I found some notes that I had on this in a file tucked away. LOL

Let's talk just the outside walls. Assume that you will do all the labour yourself. The calculations are based on constructing a single 4ft x 8ft section of wall.

1) Purchasing kiln-dried milled logs 6x6 is going to cost $3.70 per lin ft excluding shipping and taxes. Cost is approx. $250 per section (4 linear feet times 17 layers high). Except for staining and a preservative, the exterior is done, the interior is done.

2) SIP panels (structurally insulated panels) are about $150 per 4x8 panel. You would still need to add an interior surface finish (sheetrock, wood panelling, etc). You would still need to finish the exterior (see notes on stick framing)

3) Stick Framing using 2x6 lumber, fiberglass insulation, vapour barrier, sheetrock, tyvek housewrap costs approx $60 per panel (labour is DIY). Sounds cheap but you still need an exterior finish. Stonework may cost $300 per panel, brick is cheaper (approx $80), wood (shingles or clapboard) is more or less than brick, stucco is expensive (not really a DIY job), vinyl siding is cheapest. Of course, if you need a stonemason or bricklayer to do the job, costs will double or triple. so a stick frame panel will cost about $120+ (DIY) or $400+ (exterior labour).

Costs of windows and doors will be the same no matter what you decide on.

Ok....so we've determined that if you buy 6x5 milled logs it will cost you approx $250 per 4x8 panel. Now assume your house is a four corner 2000 sq ft house, let's say 40'x50'. Thats 180 linear feet of exterior wall. 180' divided by 4' wide (8' high panels) is 45 panels at $250 per panel equals $11,250 for the outside walls. You can fine tune it a bit by subracting out the windows and door spaces but still need to add a 10% waste calculation. Throw on the roof and floors and probably looking at $20,000 for the shell, excluding doors windows and interior walls. Remember this is sweat-equity ....you do the labour. If you buy a shell kit the same will cost $60,000.

Hope this helps a bit.

[tommygun]

Thanks for the information, it has helped.

I'm eagerly anticipating the next log home building class. Hope I can get in.

I have a little bit of experience in building traditional stick structures, so I'm not completely lost. :)

I thought of some more questions, and I thank you for your advice, and patience.

1. I've heard of kiln dried logs, are these good, and where would one find them?

2. Are they worth the price?

3. Do you think three strong men could build a 1500-2000 sq ft log home in 9 weeks or less?

Thank you.

[kyle]

Tommygun,

Kiln dried logs and price...You may have seen me post a similar answer on another post today but before you start thinking to much about plans and materials my recommendation is to take the class. Your concept on building and materials will change!

9 weeks...this is a very open ended question and is asked quite often on the forum and it always gets the same answer. Are you working full time/part time? What type of equipment will you have available? What type of site are you building on? How well have you planned the building stages? Will the weather cooperate? No one can answer this question because everyone and every situation is different.

IMO...If my brother and me were working full time on a log home for 3 weeks with an ideal site and good weather and most of all KEPT IT SIMPLE, yes we could have the shell up.

[adubar]

Costing-out is always good practice, but one should keep in mind that many of us look to "never pay retail, let alone wholesale." Materials figure differently in our cost analysis. My own costs are at odds with what most professional builders would even consider, as they are not gleaned from the run of the mill timber end-products they are acustomed to. Kit manufacurers suffer from the same "limited market" mindset.

One analogy would be a professional costing fuel for commercial fleets and a home owner costing their bio-fuel. They are actually using two separate markets that have some overlap, but yet are very unique. You can bet that the professional will almost always err on the side of the "status quo market mindset.' The home owner does not have to--and should not as there are always alternative sources for materials.

Labour can be the short way to savings, but materials and good planing are where you can get at the real bargains.
In best practice, you do both---your own labour and strategic materials sourcing.

In my opinion, the only way that "turn-around time" should facture into it is if you truly have a unique need for a structure to be up and usable in a specific time frame. Usually, those "special circumstances" already carry with them their own mental/financial drain. If "convinience" is the reason, then a prospective builder should sit down and take a long hard look at their abilities, what they are willing to pay for and how much motivation and patience they have.
Why be in a hurry to spend all your hard earned money in the shortest amount of time possible?

Take the class and I will bet that you start thinking about time differently.


-Andrew

[2 cents]

tommygun,

regarding your questions about kiln-dried logs:
one thing i like about this building method is that you can build with green logs. no worries about "seasoning" your logs, or kiln-drying, if you don't want to.

as to the 9-week time frame, it' been known to happen. read this:
http://www.loghomebuilders.org/9-week-log-home-0

2 cents

[tommygun]

Thanks for all the useful info.

I do plan to take the class, however, there is not one scheduled at this time.

I'm trying to get an idea of what to expect when I do build. Currently this log home project, isn't mine. It's for my mother, and she wants it done this year. This is kinda a spur of the moment thing.

I was under the impression that you had to use dried logs in building. If one uses "green" logs, wont they split and crack when they dry?

I live in the KC Mo area, and all the trees here are not good, any suggestions on where to look, or whom to talk to for good logs?

I thank you all for your advice, and information.

[Basil]

It depends on the species but generally yes, green logs do check. I used yellow poplar, which is known for checking as it dries. There are several ways to combat the checking and I can only tell you what I did. I stacked my walls green, put a roof on. Then I built a wrap-around porch with about 12 horizontal feet of porch roof all the way around the structure, then put the floor on the first level. This took almost a year of weekends and evenings. While doing this the logs checked and cured. They are well protected though and it's no longer an issue. The checks aren't structural problems. If the appearance of a check bothers me, or if it is large anough to allow air infiltration, I'll chink it just like I will chink between my logs.

It's already august. I'm not too sure that getting something built by the end of the year is realistic unles you are building a 400 square foot building. Even when you take the class, there is a steep learning curve simply because each home is different and you have to figure out how to solve problems. Besides, You probably wont be able to get winter-cut logs at this time of year, and logs cut in the summer (when the sap is up) are going to generally be harder to deal with due to weight and may be more decay prone.

[adubar]

tommygun

Not all log building methods require dry logs. But, you will find that dry logs can be much lighter than wet ones, regardless of the building method.

Splitting, checking and settling are caused by different forces and conditions, depending upon the species of log used and the method of construction.

What you will find is that the most popular methods of building with logs used by professional builders/contractors lends itself to all three of these.

Build with methods that do not cause or exacerbate these problems and you don't have to worry about them.

If you use the LHBA's preferred building methodology, you can build with green timber. Settling is not an issue.

Using green logs may be something you need to do if you are building in an area where you cannot afford to wait and must build your structure quickly. At most, a touch-up of the chinking between logs might be required after a few years, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

[jrdavis]

also, I'd be wary of anyone giving advise here that doesn't have a LHBA Member icon besides their name (yes that includes me....I can't find my cards for 1999, so there's a problem there).
I just want you (tommygun) to make sure that you don't take kiln desired advise for "doweled" or milled boards as LHBA Memeber advise.
Modified logs are NOT a LHBA recommended way to build.

Just thought I'd clarify that.

[Ellsworth]

Well my mother is interested in a log home, however she wants a log home kit. She's convinced that it will be faster, than building one ourselves. I am not convinced of this, myself. What I'm asking for is ALL the advice you good people could provide me.
Thanks

Question 1. Is there a site I could go to, to look up log prices?

Question 2. Approximately how much would it cost to build a 1500- 2000 sq ft two story log home?
(just looking for a ballpark estimate)

Question 3. How much less would it cost to built it a single story?

Question 4. Approximately how long would it take to build a 1500-2000 sq ft one or two story log home?
( again, just looking for a ballpark estimate)

Question 5. Is there any useful information you can think of, that I've not asked for?

I do not think it's a stretch to say that tommygun's situation would be ideal for the "Nuclear Family + 2 Friends" free forum access concept.

He'd buy a membership, his mother could read everything and post in that Nuclear Family section.