Buying land under your "true and proper name"

[Curtis]

This may start something but it has sent me on quite a journey that has yet to end.
On the website, Skip suggest's performing research into several areas and I did. This doesn't jump out at you, you have read carefully.
Wow, did I ever get more than what bargained for.
I am looking at land in Northern Arizona, roughly 40 acre parcels that are off of the grid and out in the middle of nowhere, however, I digress.
The only document that I have had any luck in bearing my "true and proper name" is my graduation diploma from Embry-Riddle University.
When I have brought this up with the DMV, they reply that "their computer will not let them print out a driver's license (tax stamp) that is not in all capital letters. Likewise with other agencies as well.
I feel like I have been raped...and I have been prior to birth.
The question is this: Can a person have their land deeded under their true and proper name, who has done this and how difficult was it to accomplish?
I have not been to a class yet but I plan on it this fall because I ain't getting any younger and if I don't get my own place soon I will go bonkers. A mortgage is out of the question, I have saved my pennies and I can buy the land outright. I have no debt and everything I own is paid for (it wasn't easy) except for having to buy it back from the government once a year.
I'd rather lose my sanity building my own home rather than wishing about it and never making it happen.
I hope I don't anger anyone by this.

Curtis

[Dutchfamily]

Well I think there are more questions to answer first,
it sounds like you do not have a drivers license then right?
Do you have a social security number? if so, then you use the name that is registered on the SS#.
There are people with just a one name (*wink*) and they have been able to own stuff.....

Andre

[Curtis]

I have a drivers license, a SSN, several pilot certificates and a few other tax stamps that bear the name of my straw man.
I mention this because getting them changed has been impossible.
Interestingly, I just opened a pre-approved credit card application that addressed me by my true name, however the name on my credit card is my legal fiction.
All I would like to certain of in the future is that my property will be mine and not taken away by big brother or a bunch of lawyers (is there a difference?).

[Dutchfamily]

Well I think you should be able to put your land under the name that is on your SS Card.
The thing is you have been using this alies for so long and have been legally using this alies for offical governement business.
I am not a lawyer but I have had friends that have been using alies' for years and that is their legal name. That is the reason for that line on most form: other names used. Most people think that is for the females to put their maiden name.... but no no...
Then on another note take that class man, I tell you it is the best investment I have made in years. It is worth every penny, and Steve and Ellsworth are the best instructors I have had for any class (and I have taken tons)....

Andre

[hawkiye]

Living outside societal norms comes with some sacrifice. The question is how far do you want to go and what are you willing to give up to get there.

For example: If you want to ask the governments permission for the right to travel then your going to be subject to all the rules and regulation they prescribe including transmuting your name into a corporate fiction subjecting you to said rules. Society largely accepts this method so it is the defacto law so to speak.

The real question is are you willing to put up with the inconvenince and sometimes downright hassle (or being hassled and even possibly arrested) of driving without a so called license and incurring the wrath of ignorant police and governmet officials if you get pulled over? Trying to explain your standing to someone who has no clue and doesn't care and has often been trained to ignore such standing and try and railroad you into the system etc.

Anytime you apply to government for their permission you are in effect acknowledging their authority to subject you to their rules/laws etc. There are several schools of thought on all these things and there is no consistency on how regional and local officials deal with these things. Some folks have had success in staying out of the system with little or no hassle others have had nothing but trouble it really seems to depend on who is in charge in a particular area.

Also if you do some of these things and end up getting hassled etc. and think a bunch of people who see things similarly will come to your aid think again. They are trying to stay off the radar also and will not be there to back you up. I have seen it time and agian over the last 20+ years.

The best policy IMO is to stay off the radar as much as possible and not draw attention to yourself. Sometimes that means compromising with their defacto laws and not raising a bunch of red flags by insisting they do things they way you know is right. IOW it really boils down to picking ones battles.

Keep researching you really have only scratched the surface and there is a lot to learn to protect ones interests but there is no silver bullet as some will try and tell you and they are usaully selling something.

Blayne

[Shark]

The best policy IMO is to stay off the radar as much as possible and not draw attention to yourself. Sometimes that means compromising with their defacto laws and not raising a bunch of red flags by insisting they do things they way you know is right. IOW it really boils down to picking ones battles.


Blayne

I 100% agree.
Great post.

[Kola]

well here I go:

If everyone bows to the King then no one can complain. End of story right?

How many more licenses and pemits will you apply for and how many more times will you continue to pay increased taxes before you say no. You say you are happy giving 50% of your income to pay off the private bankers? And are you prepared to lose your social security benefits that you paid into your entire working life? I do not know about anyone else but I call that theft. Some say they want to stay just under the radar but The Man is watching your every move anyway. Surprise! Are you Ok with them reading you emails? and pulling you over while driving for a "routine" check or being arrested when all you did was attend a peaceful protest? and being fondled at the airports? Big Gov knows how many guns you have, what shampoo you buy and where you ate dinner yesterday. They have access to all your phone conversations too. If they want your land for military purposes they can come and take it. They can throw you out and give you "fair market value" for your property. What if you do not want to sell? Will they kill you for it? Think about it. Then maybe the reality will sink in and finally something will get your attention to finally start saying NO.


If a few people fight and win, then others may see it is possible and jump onboard. Our forefathers made a stand and bloodshed was spilled. "Give me Liberty or give me death," said Patrick Henry. Americans need to get passionate about restoring our Republic for it is slipping away fast. The Man wants compliance. Most folks are complying quite
nicely. What a great plan for this elite "Club".
Oh yeah it is a great Club.... but you and I ain't in it!
People are paying a bunch of Mobsters for their freedom. They beat people into compliance with fear tactics. These are the real terrorists.

ok..I am done. :oops:

Kola

[Curtis]

Wow, Thanks for the great replies.
I became interested in log homes after living in one for 4 years.
It was a hunk of junk, all the logs did was slow the wind down as it passed through the house. The foundation was cracked and it was literally sliding down the hill. In my mind it has become the perfect example of what not to do for a log home. It wasn't kit built but it was notched construction with a very poor roof. Lots of fun in the summer and darn cold in the winter. Somewhere along the line while I lived there I found this site and began learning about different styles of construction for log homes.
I was going to attend the June class but my girlfriend told me I was going to Hawaii with her for a few weeks (she has a teaching job).
My goal is to live where I can walk out the front or back door with the dog and hunt a little bit and enjoy the stars at night, along with not having neighbors that call the cops because I went outside to get the paper in my boxer shorts.
Actually, not having any neighbors at all is the goal.

Curtis

[Kola]

Curtis, if you open to re-locate just about anywhere, do some homework on the states and counties and that very few restrictions in regards to permits, coding, taxes and other bureaucratic-flaming-hoops-to jump-thru. Alaska is very free. I have recently been reading about New Hampshire and Vermont wanting to break away from the Union, eliminate the Federal Government Goons and become their own stateship. Maybe some of the other folks can pitch in and help ya out.

btw: if you are interested Michael Badnarik has a great seminar about freedom,The Constitutional,Bill of Rights, etc. He is funny and entertaining but yet he simplifies his message wonderfully. It will give you a good foundational understanding of our rights. Fom there you can branch off to other things, if you so choose. I think it is easier to take little "bites" and work your way up. I have chosen to first take on the issue of my "right to travel" and one does not need a drivers license to do so. Next year my license expires and this will be first step at saying NO. I will not be fingerprinted to renew my license nor will I pay a registration fee. I will carry insurance though. I am preparing myself now with enough "ammo" to defend myself when I get pulled over.

This is great (there are 7 one hour sessions, just watch the first session and it will make you hungry for more) : http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=michael+badnarik+constitution+class

btw: if you are going to pay cash for your land you should research the bogus nature of land titles and learn how to get true ownership of your property. I am not at that crossroad yet so I do know all the details. If you look, the truth is out there though.

Kola

[Curtis]

I had presumed that being off of the grid would negate the need for permits and code however you are right, do research first. I am more than willing to build above and beyond code but the permit process can take the wind out of my sails. In Florida it is one of the most hobbling chores to accomplish. Every developer in this state has sexual climax every time they see a bulldozer (those are my fathers words) It takes a lot of time and a lot of money, it's like mating elephants, lots of bad noise and no visible results for a long time.
Thanks for the link, we could spend days discussing the topic of rights and how the Constitution has become a doormat for the abuse of our civil liberties. It is a very tender subject with me.

Curtis

[Kola]

hers a tidbit fer ya Curtis, My county told me I have to install outlets in my home even though I told them I didnt want electric OR solar power. They told me I can't build a home without it. I told them it was going to be a hunting cabin and a weekend thing and that I would use coleman lanterns. they said NOPE.

I am not ready to build yet and at the present time I have not decided whether or not I am going to comply with the bureaucratic bs..
I am in the process of educating myself and finding as much info as possible. If I find enough good reliable info that I can bank on, I will be ready to slay some dragons... Not an easy task but for me personally it is one worth fighting for.

Kola

[Curtis]

My Grandfather and every one before him (me too) are Pennsylvania Dutch.
I use electricity (obviously) however, Back in the Dutch country, homes are illuminated by gas lamps. Shop machinery is driven by compressed air, and they really do ride around in buggies. It's really not such a bad thing as the english (english, is meant as a derogatory term for some one not of the fold) would make it out to be. They move at their own pace.
My father also told me that they do not pay income or social security because they take care of themselves. If you have ever been exposed to this type of society you would understand. They are also pretty stubborn along with a few other odd traits that I am not willing to embrace.
I mention this because they thrive and survive quite well without the conveniences that our country has become so comfortable with or the notion that these things are essential for daily life.
When the sun goes down, you go to bed, when the sun comes up, you get up. When I was a child at my pappy's farm there was no indoor plumbing, meaning you get to to the outhouse when you had to go and water had to be pumped by hand. This is not a bad thing, a person learns appreciation for the things others take for granted.
Electricity is a luxury, it is not a part of clean water, clean air, wholesome food and a sound roof over your head.
Personally, I like electricity but I am planning to make my own.

[10acresATV]

Hey Kola, did you ask if you had a strong religeous belief against using electricty could you build your house without electrical outlets? And, does thier code say you must have the rest of the electrical system in your house? Just wondering.

[Kola]

Hey Kola, did you ask if you had a strong religeous belief against using electricty could you build your house without electrical outlets? And, does thier code say you must have the rest of the electrical system in your house? Just wondering.
_________________

When I first asked, they told me I had to have a certain number of outlets etc or I could not build at all. I didn't question them further nor have I looked into the specifics. I do know a person can request for a variance and there are probally a few ways to try and get around their bs. That puts me in the position to fight cityhall...which you and I know take time, energy, paperwork and a lot of aggravation.

OR I could just ignore them and build. :)

Kola

[rocklock]

I was talking to a guy in the Laundromat last winter. He was riding a bicycle. He said that he didn't want the government to know what he was doing or where he was going... and then it got worse...

I also saw a guy in the Ballard (an area in Seattle) Safeway that had duct tape and tin foil hat, tin foil around his head, gloves taped to his jacket, pants taped to sox-shoes...etc... I am sure he had his issues with the government...

My son thinks microwaves are banned in Russia and my sister-in-law has stated that she believe the government using the magnetic strip in money can track it location...

As a retired federal government worker let me state the obvious, NO ONE CARES!.

Dave

[hawkiye]

Some of us care!

Just not enough people to make a difference. As long as the majority of people are realtively happy with the current system nothing will change.

On another note I heard somewhere back east they are making the Amish license their buggy's now.

Hey were not anti-government but anti-corrupt/overbearing government 8)

Blayne

[nobleknight]

I think an old aluminum colander with a chin strap would be more effective. Tin foil hats seem to tear too easy. :wink:

Tom
nobleknight
class 01-15-05

[Kola]

I think an old aluminum colander with a chin strap would be more effective. Tin foil hats seem to tear too easy.

I would think tinfoil (aluminum) would be a conductor just as in the old days when we wrapped tinfoil on rabbit ears for better TV reception.
I would think lead helmets would be better. then some folks could call these people "leadheads".

In all honesty though, I think there is way too much gov intrusion and corruption. I am a Constitutionist and lately that seems to be a crime in this country. To mention it, quote it or suggest changing todays laws to support it becomes offensive to many people.

Although I do not beleive in wearing tinfoil hats it seems some folks like to bunch people together and attach amusing (to them) yet false labels. To each his own. This country was founded on freedom for the individual not a majority vote. I respect everyones freedom to speak and I ask that they respect mine. :)


Kola

[Kola]

On another note I heard somewhere back east they are making the Amish license their buggy's now.

Now why would that be neccesary? HMMMM.

and when is enough enough?

next..maybe license their horses? apply for a horse driving license too? but first you have to pass a horse riding road test before you can mount ol Thunder....then you might have to get ol Thunder inspected every year..you know.. kick the hooves and check under the tail etc..and of course all this for a "small" fee". and all in the name of safety and security.

NOW, that is all I will say... 8)

Kola

[adubar]

As far as I can remember, the Amish have had to license their buggies in in quite a few areas. In some l;ocalities, horse cabs need both a taxi opertor's license and a buggy licence. Of course, the city does not use any of the funds to clean up the road apples, even when its the mounted police.

I have a feeling the Amish that did not have the requirment were probalby living in areas that had a bit more freedom for all citizens. I wonder what else was restricted.

Of course in most towns/cities, bicycles are licensed, but almost no-one every registers for one. I actually had our local sherif look at me in puzzlement when I went to the sation to register mine. He said if I really wanted to spend the $3.00, he'd give me one. I took it from his demeanor that bicycle registration was one of the laws that was "meant to be ignored." He might of thought I was an idiot for asking, and certainly "from out of town.'

With all this creating and passing laws for their own sake, I'm not surprised that we continually hear of the common man running afoul of the law through no fault of their own.

Seems we keep creating laws to make up for ones on the books that no-one enforces. Eventually, the laws that end up being enforced are dubious in nature--especially if it means more money for the local authorities and the Feds.

[freedomfirst]

Well there was so much in this thread I just could hardly let it go by without a couple of words.
If the poperty is on the county tax log, and you build on it without following their guidelines they're going to nail you if/when they find out. If it's on the tax log they have laid claim to it and are a silent third party equity holder in the property, those lending credit to the corporation (U.S. et al) are also equity holders in the property. You are not...you have the equivelant of usury rights in the property (i.e. you can use it for as long as you want so long as you use it the way we say it's to be used, as in residential/commercial/etc....and of course as long as we don't need it.) There's an old saying in the tax protestors circles; "If you think you own it, stop paying taxes (rent) and see how long you keep it."
In reference to the term "law" as was used many times in this thread, none of this is Law, it's color of law in the form of codes, statutes, regulations, ordinances, ect. and there are 60 million plus of them in effect today with more passed every day.
Tin foil hats...lol lol lol, you have to admit, that is some funny, funny shit. I agree, foil would serve more in a conductive capacity than as a deflector of any sort, lead would work...as would copper mesh (faraday cage). In our laughing at these folks though, most of us are overlooking that little acronym H.A.A.R.P. It's real, it's in Alaska, and not only has the ELF (extremely low frequency) waves it produces been proven to be able to bend the ionosphere, but those in the medical professions have long since known the effects upon the psyche and all other bodily functions which are dependant upon natural electrical pulses when you bombard a mans body with these waves.
Microwave ovens. While I don't know if they are, or ever were, banned anywhere, I suppose Russia would be a good candidate considering the Nazis invented the microwave (radiomissor) ovens specifically for the invasion of Russia in an attempt to deal with the logistical issues of cooking fuels. There are however likely a few things most people don't realize about them.
They operate on AC, or alternating current. Which means the polarity is reversed continually (in a microwave, millions of times per second). Molecules, especially water molecules, have a polarity. Kinda like the opposing sides of a magnet which is what binds water molecules together. When placed in a micro wave the polarity of these molecules is likewise rotated millions of times per second, which is the movement which creates friction... which in turn creates the heat. This un-natural movement with such verocity causes damage to the surrounding molecules often tearing them apart or deforming them, technically called structural isomerism. So in other words, it's changing the make up of what you're heating up on a molecular level...which is not good. I do happen to use a microwave about every day, just thought some of you might like to know the facts.
Acquiring land in your Christian apellation. If you are using Fed res notes you've already started off on the wrong foot. You can't "pay" for anything with FRN's, they lack intrinsic value and are backed by debt. What's actually happening when you use them is you are discharging your obligation to pay into the national bankruptcy, a benefit the Fed is extending to you. Accept the benefit, pay the grantors price.
They use adhesion of contracts, and quasi contracts. Every Judge recognizes this and will look for a way to attach them to you. All he needs is one, and if he can find it, then everything else applies. Do you have a checking account? Then a Drivers License is applicable.
It's all very simple. Their game (racket) is a take it or leave it kinda deal, you can't pick and choose the parts you want, it's all or nothing. What they are offering is limited liability, that's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Protection is a form of liability "am I not my brothers keeper", then we are liable, have the responsability of, protecting our neighbors. But of course the vast majority would rather pay someone else (Police, govt, ect.) to do it, and if they fail in their task then we are not liable. Limited liability. If we're not paying attention and hit our neighbors car, we are to be responsible for those damages. But again, the vast majority would rather "pay" someone else (Insurance company) to hold that liability for us, because of course we can have nicer things this way. Limited liability. But ahhh, isn't that serving mammon? "Ye cannot serve God and mammon". So the root of the problem is unquestionably which God are we serving? If you are half in and half out, taking what you like out of the system while trying to negate your obligations to pay the price they have placed on their benefits, then you will always be found in a dishonorable position with them, and God views you as "luke warm". If you choose God (the God of Abraham) they will persecute you, scripture says so. To this we should all be saying "who cares".
Instead of insurance, issue silver bonds.
Don't register your car and cancel the certificate of title (it's a form of limited liability).
There is land out there that is not on the county tax roll, those lands they won't take because in the fictional color of law world where they reign, it doesn't exist. However, if you tie a power line to it, get a permit for building on it, driveway permit, or ask their permission in any other way to do something with it you will have just put it in the fictional world. You can't use a title company either (limited liability) and there's no GW or QC deed either because those would be recorded with the County. Pay for it with substance (gold,silver, labor) or if the only claim to ownership is some obscure treaty, then study it's chain thouroughly...issue a patent, file notice, and hold it in allodium never putting it in commerce.

...or maybe I just got my foil hat on to tight ;)
Forgive the length group,
His humble servant,
Greg.

addcoinc@yahoo.com

[Rumble]

Me thinks somebody has been smoking a bit too much wacky weed!

:lol:

[Kola]

Great post Greg!

I have not built my loghome yet and I am in the process of learning all I can to get true ownership of my land. Currently, I am studying about the "right to travel" as I will soon be forfeiting my drivers license. Then I will get ownership of my vehicle.

I too, am well aware of the HAARP issue, ELF waves, microwaves, and all EMF waves and I believe they are all detrimental to health. Toss in other frequencies from power lines, cellphones and WIFI and we have quite a lot of invisible energy zooming through our atmosphere and into the ground . I would like to mention MRI's (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) which operate by changing the spin of electrons within the human body and IMO they are a threat as well. Yet the medical community assures us they are harmless. The human brain operates in frequencies and generates an electrical field. This controls our nerve impulses. Over the years there have been many studies involving the interruption of the neurotranmission systems of human and animal life and some are quite interesting. If this type of stuff tickles your fancy, look up "Schumann Resonance."

I do not do drugs and I do not drink alcohol. I am a self-thinker and question many things others blindly accept. I have not been diagnosed as paranoid/schizophenic but I must admit I am anti-government. BTW I am anti BAD government but pro GOOD government. But in the the Land of BushCo I am considered a "combatant resistor" or "criminal extremist". Yes, according to The Mans' new definitions I am a "terrorist". I attend peace rallys, eat organic and hug trees so I am on their list. And let me tell you The Man does care because they are now photgraphing indivduals such as I AND they are keeping logs. Think I am nuts? Watch the news report from Denver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvJInyILd0

With that being said and people making judgments these are often difficult subjects to discuss. I will try and speak for LHBA (and they can correct me if I am wrong) but this is a logbuilding forum and there are lots of other forums to go further into details. The topics presented can be quite upsetting to some folks here. We are all here to learn about building loghomes but there are a lot of members with different thoughts, ideas and viewpoints regarding religion, race, politics, vaccines etc and it has the potential to create ill feelings amongst a great group of folks.

Some of us here discuss these topics because they become entangled into our building process. My first visits (and posts) here at LHBA were to question whether or not I could build my home without a permit. But there are times where the discussion goes too deep, and far off the "well-travled roads", and some folks get offended. Sarcastic comments get made and the next thing you know we have the potential for a nuke bomb on LHBA forum.

Some of the folks here (and more people than you think) really have a passion for liberty and freedom yet have to "pull up on the reins" for the sake and respect of the other LHBA members. There is a lot of diversity here and a great bunch of people from all walks of life.

I enjoy discussing these types of things because I think our Republic is crippled and We The People need to wake up and take this country back. Feel free to email or PM me a message.

Kola

[freedomfirst]

"In a time of universal deciet, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" ...and is bound to ruffle a couple of feathers.
When a man, or woman, sets out to build a log home for themselves and/or theirs, it is a declaration to the world of more than just their abilities. It is, at a minimum, a statement and reflection upon thier independence of thought. For they have shaken off the herds mentality of accepting voluntary servitude and bondage in the form of a martgage, which certainly requires a particular mindset in todays society.
In my humble rational deductions, I had placed myself under the impression that men and women with such shared mind sets, in their vigor for independence, would be more susceptible to hearing the facts of the matters, which at present prevents them from obtaining that form of true independence which they purport to yearn for. However I may have been in err?
As a servant unto God Almighty, I cannot refrain from expressing his will (word) for his children for the sake of being politically correct, or for fear of offending another with Truth, nor for any other reason(s).
However, this is not my forum. If the mention of God and Truth's is offensive, and will not be heard here, ask... and I will leave.

In answer to the query presented as the topic of this thread, if the land has a deed recorded with the COUNTY, they cannot, cannot record it in your Christian Appellation (or given name, or whatever you want to call it). The COUNTY is a fictional entity (a municipal corporation), which can only deal with other fictional entities.
While I neither give nor sell legal advice, I could, I suppose, present a couple of hypothesis for educational purposes as to how it could be handled.
If a man formed a Trust (beware of all the BS out there about "common law" trusts, etc.) you're forming the trust for commercial purposes anyway (i.e. recording deeds, purchasing property, ect.) so just pick a statutory trust structure which you're happy with. Then you, the man, could have any relationship he wanted with that trust, as in beneficiary, grantor, trustee, or whatever. As you're forming the trust to fit your needs, it could recognize you by whatever title or name you wanted and would have the added benefit of keeping you, the sentient being, at arms length away from the fictional world of commerce.
Or, as I mentioned before. There is land out there not recorded. I personally know where 26 acres is which isn't recorded here in the east. I would have to presume such a thing is easier to find a little farther out West where it's a little less densly populated.

Be Blessed group, may the truth set us free.
His humble servant,
Greg.

[Rumble]

As a Canadian, I live in a country that is a socialist (not communist) society (along with England, Sweden, France, etc, etc) where the government essentially takes care of it's citizens more so than the U.S. We take care of our less-priveldged, our seniors, our children. Furthermore, Canadians know a lot more about the US than Americans know about Canada. Having said that here's a few observations (just my opinions)

I think most members here want to build their own house (log, stick, whatever) in order to save money. Building a loghome with your own labour is a huge cost-saving. There may be a minority who wish to build their own house in the wilderness, hunt their own food and live on the fringes of society but, I think generally an owner-built log house is more of a statement of pride and satisfaction and not so much of a political statement.

The political, economic and social problems the US is experiencing stems from a combination of wrong spending of tax dollars allocated to a huge military (along with other stupid spending like the NASA program) and the fact that the citizens don't really elect the government representatives. Corporations (with their own self-interest) elect representatives from the president on down by contributing money (a legal form of bribery) thru lobbyist groups. Furthurmore the current two-party system (democrats/Republicans) virtually excludes anybody with opposing views making any impact in an election. What is really ludicrous is that the political party system permiates all the way down to the municipal level. The US government is not a democracy, it is kingdom and the only real choice is which "king" wins....a Democrat or a Republican.

Every individual should pay their rightly share of taxes. Tax avoidance is illegal but minimizing taxes paid using loopholes, deductions, etc is perfectly acceptable and is everybodys right to pay only their fair share. Most people appreciate sending their children to school, driving on safe roads, and enjoying other amenities of the infrastructure. Having said that, when the government spends huge coin (like the military) in areas that one doesn't agree with, it is natural to rebel but that rebellion will only be successful if it is within the system.

It is interesting how those that do rebel, tend to cite God's law versus secular law yet it's the same "God" majority that Bush courted in winning his election.

Building permits do not ensure a level of quality but they do ensure a measure of safety and standards, both for the current homeowner and for future homeowners of the same house. Even if a building permit is not reqired, people should build to Code standards because to do otherwise is just asking for trouble.

In Canada we have a huge amount of government wilderness land (Crown Land) and at one time any citizen could "claim" a portion of the land if they agree to build a structure of a minimum size within two years of claiming. I don't really know if that still applies here, but I do know that their are perils involved with living on wilderness land. Besides the obvious of living in a remote location, does that person have clear and proper ownership of that land. How about oil and mineral rights. How about Native peoples land claims. How about present or future Easements. Certainly playing a crap-shoot game with one's home.

Anyone who thinks that the government is constantly monitoring the citizens is paranoid and delusional. The simple fact is that neither technology nor manpower nore enough money is available for the government to monitor the activities of the citizens on a constant basis. That's the stuff of Hollywood movies but it just isn't reality. If anybody believes that a satellite is focused on them 24/7 and watching every move they make (and there are people that believe that is the case) is sadly mistaken and living their lives in fear and paranoia. Having said that, certain things are monitored like the internet. It is a fact that various "key words" are monitored but even then, the manpower and resources required to follow-up are limited. Certainly, if a person sends a letter to a Congressman and threatens harm, then that person will be "flagged", but who's fault is that.

Life is too short!. We should build our homes, raise our families, enjoy what life has to offer because it will be over way too soon. Peace and harmony is what is needed, not guns and bombs. That is the canadian way. Americans say that we are too polite, too timid.....but I can tell you that we are happy, wealthy and wise. I hope that never changes.

Just my humble opinion. EH!

[Kola]

Rumble,

The North American Union is headed to your town. How do you think Canadians will handle the situation?

Kola

[Rumble]

The North American Union will never happen.

First, let me state that Canadians view Americans as our friends. We generally luv the American people and I'm sure they would luv us too.....if they knew a bit more about Canada. The US/Can border is the largest undefended border in the world and has enjoyed free and open crossing without the need for passports or Visa's. Of course there are security gates to check who's entering but that is merely a formality. We speak the same language, have the same historical roots (British), similar laws (based on British Common Law). But there are also different styles of democratic government (Canada is a parliamentary system), a different social attitude, and a digression in the value of living.

If you ask most Canadians if they would like to join the US, the answer is a hugely major NO!. This sort of theoretical discussion comes up around these parts ever once in a while. That said, nobody here wants to be isolationist either. The two extremes (amalgamation or isolationism) are both not palatable.

A few years back the NAFTA agreement came into being signed by one of our Prime Ministers who is probably now one of the most hated PMs in Canadian history. Essentially, the US wants Canadian oil. Is it a coincidence that the Bush family are oil magnates. It seems to always be about oil. Funny how that is, whether it's the Iraq war or the NA Union, the hidden agenda always is about oil.

In Canada we value our freedom as do American citizens. I really do believe that the citizens of the US are the real strength and it's unfortunate that the US government, US military and US mega-corporations seem to have their own agenda. The US citizens want to live long, happy and productive lives.....the mega-corporations want to make more money at the expense of the citizens. If you haven't gathered, I am not a big fan of the huge conglomerate mega-corporations. As an example, pick General Motors. Does anyone still believe that GM is an American company. No, there are a world global company. They have no loyalty left to the USA. They will move production (and jobs) in the blink of an eye to any country that has cheaper labour rates. Same goes for the mega oil companies. Here's another example. Ever buy any electronic equipment lately. All the parts are made in China, Korea and various off-shore countries. Sad, sad, sad.

The big advantage in Canada is that with a parliamentary system, the elected representives are much more accountable to the citizens. There are more than two political parties (there are 4 main ones), we do not elect a president.......the Prime Minister is just the leader of the winning party. There is no "lobbyist" system which is probably the single biggest drawback to the US system of democracy. Actual registered card-carrying members of a political party are few. And we can turf out a political party when they do wrong pretty easily. as an example, Brian Mulroney (mentioned earlier as the hated PM) lost the next election. Not only did he lose the election but his political party (Conservatives) were literally wiped out....how is that for justice.

[freedomfirst]

Hello and greetings neighbor to the North. Just wanted to say real quick that the several States here in America formed a Republic (same rules for everyone) form of government, not a democracy (mob rule) form of government. Though even most Americans don't realize the difference anymore so we surely can't hold it against you for utering the D word, it's the only one the media knows how to say here anyway.

Come on Americans..."and to the Republic, for which it stands. One Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all." Many a men and women shed their blood for the belief in that.

Maybe that's why the children can't say the pledge in school anymore? They want them indoctrinated to the new one their working up;

...and to the democracy, for which it stands.
A UN nation, under the Gods of men,
in harmonious union,
to the benefit of global commerce,
our Profiteering,
and the usurping of power,
with freedoms for most,
and justice for our friends.

Lol lol, have you meet my friend sarcasm?

Anyway,
I do have a few questions for Canada;
Who's above the PM? How much "control" can you exort on them?
Is land "deeded" there?
Can you build on "your" land without a permit? (Im wondering if the building permits are like ours if not?)
What's your guys' average income tax percentage?
and just for my own curiosity...is the name on your Drivers license spelled in all capital letters?
Thanks in advance for the edification,
Your friends to the South.


Be Blessed,
Greg.

[Curtis]

KOLA:
I do know for a fact that some dwellings are not permitted to have electricity or running water. A hunting cabin I used to visit with my grandfather was that way. We had to pump water by hand, cooked over an indoor wood stove and there was no indoor plumbing which was how it qualified as a cabin.

Part of the curiosity that got me to thinking about this post originally was how to streamline my cost of living as I got older and still enjoy a reasonable standard of quality life.
The reason being is that we all wind up on some sort of a fixed income and taxes and cost of living increases eventually diminish a standard of life that a person becomes used to. I have watched this happen over and over with the elderly.
My goal is to get set up living off of the grid and not having to buy my stuff back from the government each year.
Taxes to run a society are understandable (roads, schools and care of the invalid).
Taxes to support the hedonistic excess of a top heavy inefficient sloth-like bureaucracy yielding imperceptible immeasurable results while rewarding free riders are what get me going.
I think the bottom line here is accountabilty and what am I getting for what I am paying for.
The log cabin concept provides the individual with a tangible goal and not a carrot on a stick at the end of thirty years.

[Rumble]

LOL

Freedomfirst.....to answer some of your questions.

There is nobody really above a Prime Minister. That's because the PM is not like a President. We don't elect a PM. What we elect is Members of Parliament. The PM just happens to be the leader of the political party that wins. Here's an example:

Toronto being a big city may have 15 "ridings" to elect 15 members of parliament. Each riding is a specific geographical area. Now, how does the PM get elected.....he wins his own riding. If he's from Toronto, he will run in a riding in Toronto. If he's from Montreal, he will have to win his riding in Montreal. He is not elected Nationally. Having said that, it's obvious that the election policies that are put forward by a specific Party have a lot to do with the PM so a voter must look at the PM carefully to see if that is the man for the job. It has happened that a leader of a Party has lost the vote in his own riding.....tough-noogies. There are "seats" in the House of Commons. The Party that holds a majority of seats becomes the ruling government. Often the winning party may have the most seats but not a majority. In that case, the governing party must amalgamate the votes with another parties seats if they want to pass a specific Bill. Losing a major vote on a Bill means the end of the government (non-confidence), and a new election must be called. Currently, the Canadian Government is in such a minority position. The current PM (Harper) and his Party must tread softly or they will lose the confidence of the House Of Commons. No Party wants an election right now sionce they all spent their money on the campaigns for the last election. Without the big corporate "lobbying" money, campaign funds are not that easy to accumulate. Keeps everybody honest. LOL

Tax rate is higher than in the USA.....but then you get a bigger bang for the buck. National Healthcare is probably one of the most obvious. Healthcare costs $0 up here. There are no deductibles, no pre-qualifications and no HMOs. You can go to any docter or any hospital at any time. Contrary to what the US politicians want the Americans to believe, Canadian medicine is state of the art world-class medicine. Prescription medications are are not free but they are about 1/3 the price of the US for exactly the same drug. Senior citizens over the age of 65 get their prescriptions for $2 but a lot of pharmacies wave that $2 so essentially the drugs are free. We want our senior citizens to live longer.

Canada does not have a huge military spending to make defense contractors rich or spend money on Space to make aerospace contractors rich.

If you haven't seen it already, I suggest you watch the movie "Sicko".

Drivers Licence....I really haven't looked to see if it's in capital letters.....LOL

Land is by deed which is probably different than deeds in the USA. All a deed does is set down that a person is the owner of a specific parcel of land according to a survey filed. Yes we have Building Permits and I don't know of any area that doesn't have a building permit. Houses are built according to the Canadian and Ontario building codes. In addition a municipality may have some specific requirements like road setbacks, high and size restrictions.

Land in rural locations is relatively inexpensive. In the past couple of years we have bought 3 tracts of land....1) 2.5 acres lake waterfront (with year-round road, hydro, telephone) $95K, 2) 37 acres not waterfront but within a 25 minute commute to a city with 300K population (with road, hydro, telephone, septic approved, drilled well) $32K and 3) 185 acres bush (no services, off-grid) $18K. The waterfront property is in a region that is zoned recreational use only which means that you can build a "cottage" with much slacker building codes. Waterfront property that has no road (ATV or boat access) is much cheaper.

[Kola]

The North American Union will never happen.

Rumble:In all due respect: for both our sakes I hope you are right! :)

Curtis: Yes I have to agree with your comments and I too am looking for "simple living" methods. And if we do not plan for it ahead of time it won't happen. BTW What areas have restrictions against well water and electric poles?

In regards to bureaucracy: I really do not want to fight it. I just want to do my own thing and be left alone. I go back and forth on my decisions about building. One day I wake up and decide to follow the rules and the next day I say "screw it". It puts a real damper on my free spirited nature when I always have to bow down to the King.. or else.
I may decide to never build my loghome and live in my tipi for the rest of my days. I have been kicking that around as well. Peace of mind is priceless.

Cheers!
Kola

[Rumble]

Getting back to the building topic and away from the politics a bit.

My wife and I are both 55 years of age and both have just retired last year. Our two sons are still living at home (ages 28&25) but only for another year. Been married for 33 years and every day is like the first day. I am well educated (3 university degrees but never had a student loan) and worked as a senior executive in the corporate rat-race.

Our plans (wifey and I have discussed this at great length) are to build a log home but we don't want to pay a General Contractor the exhorbitant rate that they charge. Therefore we will be living on our land in a trailer while we physically build a good portion of the home ourselves with the help of some friends and some student labour.. The outer shell will be logs. For the past several years I have been taking courses on framing, electrical, plumbing, etc at the local community college. We also have friends who can help with some of the other things like concrete work, excavating, stonework, and anything else, we'll have to subcontract, like the HVAC and septic.

The house will be built to Code with the proper building permits and inspections. Interior work will be simple but nice. We don't need a $60,000 kitchen. We already have septic approval, a drilled well and hydro/telephone is available at the lot line. Things like stairs, painting, interior finishing can be handled by us as well.

We figure we can build the home for about $50 per sq ft excluding the land cost. The land has already been purchased.

We have always lived a relatively simple and frugal lifestyle. No fancy cars (always bought 2 or 3 year old cars for cash.....let someone else pay the depreciation), no stainless steel appliances, no granite counter tops, no $1000 faucets. Our furniture is nice but basic, no fancy antiques. It helps that for the past 20 years my hobby has been furniture making, furniture refinishing. We want to be comfortable, relaxed and happy and have never had an interest in "keeping up with the Jone's".

The major cost of construction has always been the labour costs.....costs that we can save and put in our pocket. I'd rathur have a dollar in my pocket than somebody else's pocket.

For the past three years I have been doing my homework. I know where I can get logs, where to get kitchen cabinets, where to get my lumber, where to get my windows, etc, etc. It's all about research and more research.

But, leading a simple and frugal lifestyle is way more than building a house. It means living debt-free since debt is an evil thing. We will have no mortgage, no credit cards (they have all been cut years ago). But then we are 55 years old and have had a chance to accumulate some wealth. I tell my sons that when they are ready to buy their homes, their first priority should be to pay off their mortgages as fast as they can.

We have always eaten healthy foods (with an occassional pizza) that have been cooked to gourmet perfection......yummy! I make my own wine and beer, we harvest our vegetable garden and can and freeze nutritious organic produce. My wife is a quiltter but she also luvs to make homemade salsa, ketchup, pickles, relish, etc that we put down for the winter.

We enjoy our music collection and movies (all downloaded from the internet), our computer (which I built myself) and our TV programs.

Living in Canada, there are no hassles, no gestapo knocking at the door, no medical expenses to worry about. We estimate taxes on the house and land will be $170/month (we'll pay it once a year and take a 2% discount). Electricity will be about $60/mth. Telephone with free long distance service will be $35/mth. DSL internet $50/mth. Heating will be forced-air oil heating with high efficiency fireplace and a high efficiency woodstove. We are thinking of adding a corn stove. Hot water will be oil heated. Groceries, clothing and other items should be about $200/mth. Car & home insurance is $85/mth (we'll pay once a year and take a 3% discount) for full coverage. Bottomline we figure we can get by very easily on about $1000/mth.

No mortgage, no car loan, no credit cards, no debt.

[NordicPrincess]

I have enjoyed reading this thread.
You sound like a real "common sense" man, Rumble. Something not so common these days! LOL. Best wishes to you and your wife in all your endeavors.
Thanks for the synopsis on Canadian government and health care. I frequently hear about the horrors of your healthcare system. Nice to see some facts.

[JimV]

Thanks for your posts Rumble. Very well articulated and to the point. I sure hope you are right about the NAU not coming your way. I believe the only way it won't happen is if the people of our countries actually wake up to see what is coming.
I do truly love Canada. My sister lives in BC and enjoys dual citizenship and I always enjoy visiting her at her place on the lake.
I am not sure if you are familiar with Connie Fogal. She is Canadian and seems to be the lone voice in the wilderness speaking out against the NAU coming to Canada. She is a very interesting speaker. Here are some links to some of her speeches.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1355300745194023737&q=connie&total=5433&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=5
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1355300745194023737&q=connie&total=5433&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=5
Rumble, what do Candaians think of Connie. I think she is great.

For those of you who wonder what the North American Union will be like watch this video on what is going on in the European Union. The NAU is modeled directly after the EU. It's called "The Real Face of the European Union"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2699800300274168460&q=european+union&total=222142&start=0&num=30&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

If any of this peaks anyones interest you can go to "google video" and do a search for more on Connie, the NAU, The European Union, and don't forget Ron Paul a republican candidate for president who is the only one not in the pocket of the special interests and big corporations.

Sorry for the rant, let the flaming begin ;)

Jim

[freedomfirst]

Greeting group, a quick comment addressing Canada.
I was once told "Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to."
I knew the answers to the questions I asked Canada but was curious to see if anyone else would catch it (specifically refering to Canada being presented as a soveriegn Country, and no one being above the PM.)

If they are sovereign, why is anothers picture on their currency?

The Coronation of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in the Abbey Church of St. Peter, Westminster, on Tuesday, the second day of June, 1953

IV. The Oath
The Archbishop shall minister these questions; and the Queen, having a book in her hands, shall answer each question severally as follows:

Archbishop: Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon, and of your Possessions and other Territories to any of them belonging or pertaining, according to their respective laws and customs?

Queen: I solemnly promise so to do.

Let there be no question, the PM is not at the top of the pyramid.

Be Blessed group.
When the truth is stranger than fiction, and thereby causes the masses to believe the lie. The 1% who know the truth are sure to be ridiculed.

[DAVID C]

SOME FINE READING AND EXCELLANT POINTS AND INFORMATION. NOT QUITE SURE HOW IT PERTAINS TO LOG HOME BUILDING.MY THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT ARE MIXED . I PERSONALLY THINK IT IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO SPEND SO MUCH EFFORT TRYING TO HIDE FROM THE G-MEN. ALL THAT EFFORT SHOULD IMO- BE DIRECTED TOWARDS BUILDING YOUR LOG HOME AND LIVING YOUR RETIREMENT YEARS SUPPLEMENTING YOU INCOME OTHER WAYS. FOR INSTANCE --BUY OR BUILD A PORTABLE SAW MILL, SELL YOUR SERVICES TO OTHERS/ FOR CASH OR BARTER/ DO CRAFTS/ BUILD THINGS/ GROW THINGS/ RAISE THINGS/ SELL THINGS. ETC.ETC. LOTS OF WAYS TO BUILD UP AN INCOME TO SUPPLEMENT YOUR N EEDS. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS JUST DO IT. TALKING WITH MY BROTHER LAW IN ABOUT THIS POST WE BOTH SAT AND READ IT, THEN DISCUSSED IT .SEAMS TO US THAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MICRO MANAGE EVERY PART OF THE PROCESS IN JUST GETTING YOUR CABIN BUILT. ANETHER DISCUSSION BETWEEN US WAS A QUESTION ABOUT HAVING A FEW PEOPLE WILLING TO GET TOGETHER TO BUY 192 ACRES WE KNOW OF FOR SALE AND EQUALY DIVIDE IT UP INTO EQUAL SHARES. THAT WAY IF FOUR OR FIVE PEOPLE JOINED IN WE COULD ALL HELP EACH OTHER TO AT LEAST BUILD A SHELL FOR EACH PERSON IN OUR CORPORATION OR WHAT EVER WE CHOSE TO DO IT WITH ALL BEING EQUAL PARTNERS. ALSO WITH THAT MUCH LAND THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM TO BUILD EXTRA 6/8 10 CABINS FOR SALE PERHAPS TO FELLOW LHBA MEMBERS IF WE BUILT 10 CABINS AND SOLD/RENT THEM WE THINK EVERY ONE COULD GET BY QUITE NICELY. JUST SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS TO THROW OUT THERE. INPUT IS WELCOMED THANKS FELLOW LHBA MEMBERS.---- PS LAND IS IN TENNESEE SORRY FOR THE CAPS ME BAD
.

[Rumble]

Freedomfirst....you are a funny guy, I must admit. Sorry for not posting earlier....vacation time Retired, but we still get away someplace....nice to get away!

The Queen of England hasn't ruled anybody for quite some time. She doesn't even rule the United Kingdom. Even during World War II, it wasn't King George that was calling the shots (no pun intended)....it was Winston Churchill.

Prior to 1967, Canada was known as the Dominion of Canada, but even then, the Queen was more of a figure-head. In 1967, Canada formed it's own constitution with the symbolic gesture of having our own flag.

I think what is being confusing is to know the difference between government and tradition. Traditions, protocol, and ceremony are a good thing. Just ask anybody from a European country where the centuries of history have given them a rich heritage. problem in North America (canada, US, mexico, etc) is there is very little historical heritage (excluding the native Peoples). It's even worse in the US where the country basically purged all the history related to Britain.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not of british decent (but my wife is of Irish decent). But I do appreciate the British heritage. I also appreciate the french heritage that the province of Quebec enjoys.

Canadians are friends with the American citizens, but we are also very strong Canadian nationalists. There is something called the old British Commonwealth which are countries that were under British rule during the old British Imperialism era. Those days are long, long gone but it's nice to know that there are countries that share a very similar heritage and tradition...Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Barbados, Bahamas, etc, etc (53 countries)..."The Commonwealth is a unique family of developed and developing nations, a voluntary association of independent sovereign states spread over every continent and ocean. From Africa to Asia, from Pacific shores to the Caribbean, the Commonwealth's 2 billion people make up 30% of the world's population and are of many faiths, races, languages and cultures."

Freedomfirst.....you can't just plunk some information out of context, post it as fact, and profess to know the truth. And that's a fact!

[ponyboy]

All those dang Canadians sneaking over the United States border, taking the jobs the Mexicans don't want... ;-)

Just kidding, just kidding! :-) Hee he he. I remember when I had to work in Canada for a few months at Cold Lake (north of Edmonton). We were in a store talking to the ladies behind the counter. Of course we got to talking about the differences between the two country's. We all had to joke about everybody saying "eh" all the time. :-) But the one thing that stuck with me for the last 20 years was when one of the ladies talked about how we (the people of the United States) call ourselfs Americans and them Canadians. She pointed out that we are all Americans because we all live in North America.

I never thought about it that way before. The other thing that stayed with me was that and they served gravy with their French fries. :-)

[Kola]

Yes Pony.. and we will ALL be Ameri-cons..I mean Americans with the new North AMERICAN Union.

btw NAU is already in motion.

Kola

[ponyboy]

Hopefully I'll be living in the Republic of Cascadia before the NAU happens.... ;-)

http://zapatopi.net/cascadia/

[Kola]

A big powwow in Montebello with Bush, Mexico leaders and Canadian leaders concerning NAU. At the last minute, it was closed to the public and Canada gov refused the thousands of petitions against NAU/SPP.

Watch Canada as it has now becomes a police state just like the USA. It appears the gov does not recognize what the free people have to say, nor do they care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILTtIGVRS9k

[GammaRae]

Aren't Canadian people called... Canadians?

[Kola]

Don't folks call americans "american people"?

ie "Today the american people voted to impeach George W Shrub"
or "we, the american people have a right to carry weapons"

??
Kola

[GammaRae]

I guess you do have a point. Canadian People are certainly different than say, Canadian beer or Canadian bacon.

[Kola]

I agree Gamma..its like American Cheese and French fries.

heehee
kola

[Klapton]

Or, skip the nationalism and have CHEESE FRIES!

Mmmmm... Cheeeeese Fries...

[Kola]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihPd6lMKxPs

It was proven that 3 masked "protestors" were cops. A classic case of "agent provocateurs." The common folk were gathered for a peaceful protest but the cops planted 3 goon-cops (posers) in the crowd to try and start trouble. They were exposed and now the cops say have no comment. It was nice to see the canadian news station present the truth. What is happening to these LEOS who are supposed to be here to serve and protect and uphold our personal rights? They are becoming the enemy. Why would a cop want to stir up trouble and provoke a riot at a peaceful protest. This troubles me... AND, everyday I lose more and more respect for LEO's.

Kola

[rreidnauer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihPd6lMKxPs

It was proven that 3 masked "protestors" were cops. A classic case of "agent provocateurs." The common folk were gathered for a peaceful protest but the cops planted 3 goon-cops (posers) in the crowd to try and start trouble. They were exposed and now the cops say have no comment. It was nice to see the canadian news station present the truth. What is happening to these LEOS who are supposed to be here to serve and protect and uphold our personal rights? They are becoming the enemy. Why would a cop want to stir up trouble and provoke a riot at a peaceful protest. This troubles me... AND, everyday I lose more and more respect for LEO's.

Kola
What a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately, peaceful demonstrations, in the eyes of the government, means absolutely NOTHING. They will continue to do what they wish, as long as there is no resistance imposed. Short of a revolution, a person's only recourse is to VOTE THEM OUT! If you really want to invoke a real change, and return to a government of the people, by the people, for the people, then the top parties which have been in power for far too long must go. Until you can get the majority of the people behind that effort, (I'm not talking 500,000, or 1,000,000, or even 50,000,000, but at least 150 million people) then it will continue be business as usual. A political revolution is due at the poles, but sadly, I don't see the likelyhood of that occuring.

[end (a very rare) political rant from me]
(I promise not to do it again)

[Jakie]

I believe that Kola said it best when he called the masses sheeple. As long as the wage slaves get their food, shelter, and opiate of the masses (no, not religion, but Television!), they happily, brainlessly go on to feed the multinational corporate needs.

[JimV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihPd6lMKxPs
Kola
What a sad state of affairs. Unfortunately, peaceful demonstrations, in the eyes of the government, means absolutely NOTHING. They will continue to do what they wish, as long as there is no resistance imposed. Short of a revolution, a person's only recourse is to VOTE THEM OUT! If you really want to invoke a real change, and return to a government of the people, by the people, for the people, then the top parties which have been in power for far too long must go. Until you can get the majority of the people behind that effort, (I'm not talking 500,000, or 1,000,000, or even 50,000,000, but at least 150 million people) then it will continue be business as usual. A political revolution is due at the poles, but sadly, I don't see the likelyhood of that occuring.

[end (a very rare) political rant from me]
(I promise not to do it again)

I totally agree Rod and it will take a revolution of thought. That's why I've joined the Ron Paul revolution for president. I have NEVER been political before, but we must stand up now or lose the country as we have known it. ron is all about personal freedom which all of us on this board can relate to . He wants to repeal the Patriot Acts ( both 1 and 2) and get rid of the federal reserve (YoooHooo). The main stream media says he doesn't have a chance. don't Believe them. There is a grass roots movement starting to pick up steam. check him out and get on board if you like what you see.
Sorry for the political rant, but I am very passionate about saving our country and Ron Paul is a TRUE patriot.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/

Log Worthy Jan 14, 2007

[nobleknight]

Kola,

The police force has slowly and continually been federalized. They now take orders and training from the feds. They will continue their course, until marshall law kicks in. This is what they want. The people are the real problem, and they will prove it.

Tom
nobleknight
class 01-15-05

[nobleknight]

Rod,

Can we really vote them out? Who will take their place? Who has millions of dollars to raise and run a campaign? If you have to raise the money, it comes with strings. The strings then controll the new politician. After spending 5 million dollars, your paycheck totals less than $200K. What is the rate of return? It all makes me sick. You are right saying we need a 150 million people to get motivated, but they are too busy watching American Idol.

Tom
nobleknight
class 01-15-05

[Jakie]

It's been that way, especially since 9/11. Your homeland security, and the Canadian version has allowed many erosions of civil rights, not just civil liberties, in the guise of protecting us. I even see changes in Hospital security. I am sure that terrorists are just lined up waiting for health care....NOT

John

[rreidnauer]

Yes, indeed they can be voted out. Ridiculous amounts of money wasted on campaigns has got to stop. (he who spends the most wins is not a democracy) Besides, if you have the following of the people and their votes, (which of course we know won't happen, but....) there's no need to spend money like that. I would have loved to see what would have happened if Perot would have got in there. (either good or bad, at least it would have been a change) A minor party would have much more incentive to do well for the people, rather than the usual two, which have become too comfortable in their positions.

I'll finish with one last thing, then I'm really done. . . . . . . really!

I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing . . . . . . . . . . It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government. -Thomas Jefferson, January 30, 1787

[knuckledragger]

To begin with, the actions of these officers is absolutely horrific. I don't know the whole story, but if there is any truth to it, they should be prosecuted and held to a higher standard than an average citizen who is not charged with enforcing the laws that were written to protect the rights of others.

That being said, please don't be too harsh on Law Enforcement officers in general. Yes there are some corrupt ones, but I take everything that the media says about LEO's with a grain of salt because I used to be one fulltime. I became a firefighter because I could do my job without the fear of being sued for just protecting myself. The media is quick to report the alleged wrongdoing of cops without ever having any proof of such wrongdoing beyond the word of some thug who got beat down because he assaulted a man who was just trying to do his job. It is odd how many of us who often hold the media suspect are quick to believe them when the story implicates a LEO. Yes, there are some corrupt cops. But most of them are trying to do the right thing.

Are the feds calling the shots for local LEO's? Maybe somewhere, but in my experience the feds and the locals don't really work together all that much and hardly ever look forward to working together when they have to. Admittedly, many officers do not have an adequate knowledge of our constitution and our history. What they know about the law is what they are taught in the Academy. But on the whole, they are honest, well intentioned individuals. Some, like myself, are strict constructionists (people who read the constitution and try to glean from it it's orginal meaning as the founding fathers intended) and they do their best to protect the rights and freedoms that are spelled out in the constitution.

I am not trying to stir up a debate. I am just offering a different perspective from one who has been "on the inside." BTW, I support Ron Paul, too.

Take care,
Jim

[Kola]

I know what your are saying Jim. Here in my smalltown the cops here are like Andy Griffth and Barney Fife. Thats a good thing.

But I am seeing a whole new breed of LEOS out there, especially in the big cities who are acting out the Gestapo antics. It seems to be almost everywhere and that is why I posted the video incident that happened up in Canada. If there are any good cops in the big cities they quickly realize they need to get out and get a real job or become one of the "brownshirts". Corruption amongst LEOS and politicians is at an all time high. There is a buzz around the ol' US of A (and around the world) and continuous talk of this "police state" that has come crashing down around us since 911. Things are getting ugly, people are slowly waking up but nothing will happen until the common folk get really angry. The Big Gov knows they are getting resistance and that is why they are using these new agressive tactics to intimidate us. THEY are beginning to fear US (for a change). People are waking and starting to take action and Big Gov is trying to supress it before it grows and becomes unmanagable.

I know some local LEO's and chat with them. They know I am a Constitutionalist and a bit of a shit-stirrer. They told me they are trained to take orders from their superiors, enforce them if need be and never question them. I reminded them that they took an oath to uphold The Constitution of the United States and if they act on one of their superiors orders that conflicts with the constitution they are committing treason. Four of the officers agreed with me but never looked at it that way. They told me they have to enforce the laws. I told them the only REAL laws are the Constitution which is the Supreme Law of the Land. ( I am not talking about running redlights etc). The Constitution covers the bigger issues because our forefathers knew what could happen because it happened to them.

Todays LEO's need to be educated about our rights and they need to respect them and uphold them. I am active with CopWatch in Denver CO and what I have witnessed with my own two eyes has got me very concerned. And because of my activity, I am now in the Denver Police "Spyfiles" and listed as a criminal extremeist. I was first entered into a file (complete with photos) after I attended a peace rally which was a peaceful march and non-confrontational. I wore a peace shirt and had a sign saying "Imagine, PEACE". So yes, there are LEO's now in almost every state that are taking pictures and keeping files of people who attend peace rallies or question the government. But now us little people are fighting back because we are now videotaping them and keeping records of them. And trust me, they do not like it and are busy trying to pass laws to stop us. Some LEOS are now covering up their name plates and will not tell us their names. Something to hide? If they are doing nothing wrong whats to hide?? AND, from the video I posted today, LEOS are now being planted as agent provocateurs? Is this all in violation of our Constitutional and God -given rights. This is out of control.

Whats next? Ship us to Guanatamo?

oh yeah..Yes please read about Ron Paul for Prez 08. He has quoted this: I am the Champion of the Constitution." GO RON!

That is all I will say.
Kola (zips mouth and sits next to Rod)

[freedomfirst]

Greetings group.

I searched pretty tirelessly (to no avail) for an article from a retired congressman I had read wherein he was talking about how they could spend millions on a campaign to be elected to a position that may only pay $100-$200K per annum. Essentially, groups of them get together once seated and form investment portfilios held under some legal entity (i.e. a Trust, LLC, etc). They then will vote according to what will effect the stocks held by that entity. For example; Imagine holding a significant amount of stock in Insurance companies...and then being able to pass a "law" making Insurance mandatory for everyone to have. As you can imagine, the stock price shoots up drasticly. At which point they would cash out.
Or, say you own a considerable amount of stock in a minning company. All you would have to do to see that stock price rise is insure they got some lucrative, highly saught after minning rights (like on FEDERAL land).
If their entity holds stock in a defense contractor company (Haliburton) guess who is most likely to be awarded the contracts? and a war means more defense related contracts.
and everybody thinks it's all about oil...only on the surface friends, only on the surface.

As for "LEO's"
Let me first state that in general, I concure. A good majority of them are doing what they feel is right, and an even higher number joined their respective PD specifically for that purpose. The military "police state" feel to things is in large part do to the fact that it is a seamless transistion to go from the military to a PD for them. A vast number of the men/women comming back from having just served find this a good fit for them. The PD's love having them because comming from the military means they are already conditioned to follow orders unquestionably.
I don't think I could overstate it enough here that there is a percentage of the population that is not "law" obiding to any degree, rather it be Gods Law or mans. In these degenerative types, should we be thankful to have at least the illusion of a barrier between us and them.
Why is it just an illusion? Let me share a short story and then some cases.
Warren v. District of Columbia. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers."
The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."
If you think this may be an isolated case, here is a list, which is in no way a complete compilation, of a few more cases with similar rulings for your purview:
Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958); Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968); Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983); Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985); Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982); Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981); Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978); Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977); Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap.); Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969) and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982).
Additionally, many STATES have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits altogether against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes such as California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals."

Have any of you ever seen that thing police do where they will call someone who has a bench warrant and tell them they have won a cruise or something and to come down and claim their prize at such and such address? Then when the man/woman gets there they find there is only cops waiting for them who cuff them and haul them off to jail. I know...kinda funny huh! With the exception of one thing. They lied. Courts have also routinely held that LEO's have no duty nor obligation to tell you or I the truth at any point in time unless they are testifying under oath in court, and in fact are routinely instructed to use "whatever means necessary" to most expediently perform their duties. So if they clearly have no duty to protect any "individual citizen" as stated above, and owe no duty to the truth, then what exactly is their duty?
"To Protect and Serve" the STATES interest! That's it.
And the STATE has two main objectives;
1. Stay in power
2. Generate revenue
If you think they are there to "serve" you...any of them, you haven't been reading their published literature (CODES, STATUTES, REGULATIONS, etc.)

democracy democracy democracy democracy, why do we keep using that word?
"And to the republic, for which it stands."
The truest form of a democracy is a lynch mob, where the mob rules.
A republic is the same laws and protection of liberties for everyone, regardless of who you are, and without merit to what the "politically correct" general consensus of the time may be.

Be Blessed, enjoy your log homes, keep a gun in it, and look after your nieghbor(s) like we're supposed to.

[freedomfirst]

The steps taken to get everyone under that fictitious entity known as a "LEGAL NAME" has taken another step forward. The following are excerpts from a story posted at the folloiwing link; http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57502

"I was astonished when I saw that North American hologram on the North Carolina driver's license," Guest told WND. "I thought to myself that the state DMV has already included this North American symbol on the back of the driver's license without telling the people of North Carolina they were going to do this. "This is part of a plan by bureaucrats and trade groups that act like bureaucrats to little by little transform us into a North American Union without any vote being taken and without explaining to the U.S. public what they are doing,"

As the AAMVA guidelines document explains, each North American hologram OVD foil is embedded with a unique set of control numbers that permit law enforcement electronic scanners to identify the exact jurisdiction and precise individual authorized to hold a driver's license or ID card (amongst other data).
"The photo on the license creates a close face scan that can be identified by face recognition technology..."

I recommend taking the five minutes to read the whole story. There are additionally links to other stories at the bottom of the page.

May those who follow the Lord be blessed and have their eyes opened to what is all around them.
I have the land for my log home, and am working out a deal with a local saw mill for obtaining the finish lumber I'll need in exchange for the tree's we'll be clearing. Intend on clearing this fall. Will share as things develop, thanks for the forum! I have gotten some very good ideas and additional insight from alot of the postings.

[shooshine_Jonnie]

Bump. www.losthorizons.com on the legality of the IRS. (just found this thread)