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[knuckledragger]

Hello,

My name is Jim Aldridge and I have read alot of what is on the Loghomebuilders.org website. I have not attended the class yet, but I hope to do so within the next year or so. I am a fulltime firefighter and part time police officer in Memphis, TN and my wife and I are trying to buy retirement land in the Ozark mountains in AR. If we get some land, we would like to build a small log cabin (16 ft x 20 ft) as soon as we could afford it so that we would have a little "wilderness retreat" even before I retire (I get my fill of big city life and violence and just want a place to retreat with my wife and kids). I have a few questions:

1) I know that this is a difficult question because there are so many variables, but using best case scenarios and using Mr. Ellsworth's methods, about how much (ballpark) would it cost someone to build a small log cabin (16x20) if they took their time gathering materials like the website suggests?

2) Currently we are looking to buy a VERY rural piece of land that is 20 acres with a well already on it (no pump) and a fair amount of southern yellow pine on it. Access to electricity is no problem. How much will it affect the "bottom line" to have a well already drilled and use timber that is on the land? Is southern yellow pine suitable for building a butt and pass cabin?

3) The land we are looking at is 3 hours away so I will have to go over on my days off to work on it. My job is such that I get 3 two week vacations a year and out of every 9 day period, I get 4 days off in a row. Roughly how many days does it take to build a small log cabin to the point that it is in the dry?

4) It does not get terribly cold here in the south (10 degrees is RARE, winters are pretty mild) so what is the minimum diameter log one should use to build with in such a climate?

5) Do you know of anyone from the South that has taken the class and built a log home that I could go look at?

I really want a strong, high quality log cabin, but firefighting is not the most lucrative of jobs so I want to build it for as little as possible. We schedule 2008 vacations this November, and I am going to try to schedule one that will allow me to go to a class. Until then, any advice or info will be greatly appreciated.

[rreidnauer]

Hello Jim and welcome to LHBA.

You're right. Quoting a price is difficult, but I'd say, taking into consideration the assumption of a usable well, usable trees, and careful gathering of tools and materials, you could probably build that 16x20 for under $20K, perhaps even under $15K, and if you're real resourceful, for $10K!!! Drop in your own wellpump and build your own septic system. (somewhere on the board describes a DIY septic installation)

Yellow pine will work. I'd say the small end shouldn't get much below 10", and definitely no smaller than 8".

Not sure of anyone with a finished place near you, but if there is, they'll pipe up.

Lastly, 16x20 is quite small. I guess it's personal preference, but I doubt I'd go much less than 24x24 myself, definitely no less than 20x20. (Oh yea, LHBA recommends square houses, and they'll tell you why in the class)

[kyle]

Rod took the words out of my mouth, I was going to say between 10k-20k for most people and not to say it can't be done for less than that. It depends on all the extras.

You are way ahead of the game having your own trees to use!

[knuckledragger]

Thanks for the quick replies. While 16x20 (or 20x20) is too small for a family to live in, I just want a cozy place to vacation at initially and that my wife and I can live in after retirement while we build a larger home as our permanent residence. I also want something that will go up relatively quickly.

I have read that it is really dangerous to do your own lumberjack work. Does the class cover ways of felling your own trees that minimizes the risk?

Once we cut down the timber and debark the logs, how many "man hours" does it typically take to build a 20x20 cabin? Bear in mind, I married a red headed cajun woman who ain't afraid of a little manual labor.

[kyle]

Its been a couple years since I took the class and I think they recommended a book on tree cutting if I remember correctly but its a log home building class not a logging class. I grew up on a farm so I've always been around chain saw and cutting down trees the biggest advice I have is use common sense. Its recommended to get all the protective gear available. There are various sites on the internet on felling trees that will help.

As for "man hours", or in your case "woman hours", thats a loaded question that no one can accurately answer for you. All I can say is some people have built full size homes working part time on weekends in a year while others have taken 10 years. Being that you are thinking small is a big step on getting it done faster.

[Kola]

Heidee-Ho Jim.. :)

You have a lot going for you..free trees, good weather and loads of free time (with your work schedule and vacations.) I must say I am bit jealous! jk.

If you do not want to tackle cutting down your trees, hire a professional to take them down and cut off the branches. You could drag them out yourself to save some bucks with an ATV, tractor or my favorite method..using a good horse. ( try and avoid dragging the logs downwind from your horses rear-end..if-ya-know-what-I-mean :oops: )

IMO the amount of time, labor and materials you will spend on building a 17x20 loghome would be better spent building a 30x30 loghome with a loft.

I highly recommend you take the class..THEN make your plans. Your ideas will change, you will have tons of info that will save you thousands of bucks. You will get a simplistic overview on how to build an inexpensive and structually sound loghome that will also look great.

I had similar ideas (as yours) and even thought of buying a kit at one time. All that changed after talking with folks here in the LHBA forum and then taking the class.

Good luck... and read all the postings here..lots of great info
Kola

[dbtoo]

2) Currently we are looking to buy a VERY rural piece of land that is 20 acres with a well already on it

3) The land we are looking at is 3 hours away so I will have to go over on my days off to work on it.

This was my situation too. I hadn't started building yet, and there already was a mobile on the property. Problem was that the remoteness allows for rampant theft. The thieves broke in and stole all of my power and hand tools, solar array, wind turbine, inverter, batteries, pumps, and other stuff. So, keep this in mind. You may want to buy the property, but until you can be there full time, or have a 'fool proof' security system that can stop the thieves, you will be vunerable.

[Kola]

good point db

..Then there is this..as I am awaiting the 44 mag upgrade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu0OX7MQL5I

Kola :twisted:

[freddy]

Kola, I will assume you jest.

That is an offshoot of the ol' spring gun defense, which is illegal everywhere. If your defense is effective and you kill the intruder, you will be facing a 1st degree murder charge. I don't know if there is precedent for the change in facts that video targeting brings in, but my gut feeling is that the video doesn't matter.

The main problem with spring gun defense is the possibility of killing an innocent victim, and it could happen with video targeting as well.

freddy

[knuckledragger]

There is a small, rickety storage building on the property and I intend to put some stuff in there that I would not miss if it were stolen (old t.v. that doesn't work) and see how long it stays there.

I like the idea of the automatic bb gun, but my wife (having been married to a firefighter/knuckledraggin' moron for 10 years now) has squashed the idea under the premise that surely "someone would get their eye put out with that thing."

[GammaRae]

Someone gave me the suggestion of putting up hunting scout cameras. Problem would be keeping THOSE safe. Seems to me thieves could easily locate them after they flash.

Anyone got suggestions for using them?

[knuckledragger]

By the way, I forgot to mention a couple of other things about our situation. Most fulltime firefighters have a side job. I have a few friends on the job who do side jobs like plumbing, welding/fabrication, and general handyman (no electricians) :cry: . I am hoping to solicit their help in exchange for access to our "vacation cabin/rural retreat."

I see alot of talk about homesteading on this forum. Is 20 acres a large enough piece of land to gain some amount of self sufficiency?

Also, some of the pine on this 20 acres is of a suitable size (judging from what was stated earlier about an 8-10 inch diameter minimum, but most is in the 5-6 inch diameter range. How quickly does southern yellow pine mature?

[10acresATV]

Ok, we all know booby traps are illegal because of the possibility of killing an innocent victim such as a fireman or someone. But, how about one that just doused the intruder with skunk smell or paint like banks put in money bags?

The scout cams look like they work well if you spend enough on them (about $300 to $500 for top of the line). I was also thinking that a web cam (IR of course) with a software that would look for changes from frame to frame and only record for a period of time once change was detected would be cool. But, let's say it worked and you got a video of the thieves in action getting your stuff. What do you do with that? Do you think the cops would really take action on it and go catch the bad guy and get your stuff back? Hmmmm.

[GammaRae]

We'll have 20-foot rented container during construction, so things will be locked up fairly well.

I think the point of the scout cams are 2 or 3 fold in this situation:

1) start flashing before anyone gets close to attempting entry, hopefully to spook them off.

2) bring attention to the site at night with the flashes (we have great neighbors to the South & North of us)

3) and lastly, take photos.

[ponyboy]

I'm waiting for ED-209 to guard my property. :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ep4sIHEf88

[knuckledragger]

yeah, but does ED 209 come in a solar powered version?

[akemt]

With just a little reading (pick up a book or two) about electrical, you can figure out how to do that too. Of course, it helps that we don't have inspections here and thus CAN legally do it ourselves. Sounds like you're about set. I definately second that you should take the class soon, THEN plan. We're going 40 X 40 and have considered a 2 story with loft against a 1 story with loft...the money we'd save in making the smaller one, in our case, is negligible. We'll see what we decide when the time comes. Hopefully it'll be within the year.

Best of luck!

[adubar]

knuckledragger,

Just about anything related to home construction can be learned through books, trial/error and often time local college outreach programs. Take a look at what is available locally.

As for learning to fell a tree, your local timber associations probably have some open "safety classes.' Many are open to the public and felling is taught--especially the safety involved.

You may also find an experience and safe logger that is willing to teach you.

Locally, where I live, we are fortunate to have a horse logger who is more than willing to pass on his knowledge to anyone who has the back and attention span to learn.

Best of luck!

-A

[Vern Street]

Hey knuckledragger -

Don't know where in ARK you are planning to build but another member, Tgardner (Tom Gardner) is building a 30X30 near Clarksville, AR. You might contact him and get a tour. Sara and I went over one weekend and helped him do some chinking. He used some nice yellow pine for his logs. They were very straight.

Vern and Sara Street near Tulsa
working on RPSL's and ridge pole.
www.vernstreet.com

[Kola]

HEY VERN!! Dont forget to take some pics of the RPSL and ridge pole going up. I'd like to see!..sounds like a good adrenaline rush too!...and after that it is all down hill, brother!!..and sister!!..Sarah :)

Kola-moto-rola 8)

[knuckledragger]

Thanks again for your replies. I will try to get in touch with Tom Gardner soon. My wife and I are set to close on this property at the end of this month and we are really anxious. This is the third piece of property we have tried to purchase (the first didn't go through because of issues with the survey, the second didn't go through because of issues with the title) and we are really hoping for better luck this time. I get excited about the possibilities just reading the forum, so I'll probably be really motivated once I get to attend a class.

I'm already talking to my brother and a couple of guys I work with about trying to go to a class with me and my wife. I've already mentioned that she is a hard worker, but she is also quite the "tomboy." Before we got married she was a vet tech, a zoo keeper, and she trained horses. Come to think of it, most folks think she married me because she was used to dealing with big, dumb animals. I don't know if that is true, but she does give me a treat every time I remember to put the toilet seat down.

[kyle]

Come to think of it, most folks think she married me because she was used to dealing with big, dumb animals. I don't know if that is true, but she does give me a treat every time I remember to put the toilet seat down.

:lol: For her sake let's hope you aren't drinking out of the toilet!

[Kola]

Yeah I tried training my wife to put the seat UP when she was done... tried biscuits...nada..then oreos..nope..

..if dose' woman want us men to put the seat DOWN for them they gotta put it UP for us!!! RIGHT??? :shock:

maybe thats why I am divorced!

umm..anyway..GOOD LUCK "KNUCK"! :wink:

ps..walk the land..several times..imagine what it is like in all seasons, (ask neighbors)..do not rush into a buy...walk walk walk :)

Kola

[hawkiye]

I'm wth Kola for all the time and effort you will have to put in building you might as well build a 30X30 it won't be that much more and if you go two story you will have a nice liveable house and for when relatives come to visit. Especially with your own trees on the property.

For security the best thing you can have is a trust worthy nieghbor that lives near you full time. Also you could get an enlcosed trailer for your tools with hardened locks but leave it at a nieghbors near your property if there is no one close enough to keep an eye on your place. Other then that there have been some good suggestions.

If you want a retreat right way keep your eyes peeled for an old doublewide mobile home cheap or free. I have seen them in decent shape anywhere from free to $5000. That way you have a decent place to stay while you build and can take your time and get everything the way you want it.

[Vern Street]

We live here full-time, but our 16 foot flatbed trailer was stolen in broad daylight while we had gone into town one afternoon. We're on a fairly busy rural highway with lots of traffic, but I learned a long time ago - if you act like you know what you're doing, no one bothers you!

So, either invest in a lock for the hitch or block it with one of those nice 45 foot logs that they can't move around!

Vern and Sara

PS We lifted our first RPSL today!!! Yippee!

[knuckledragger]

The one discouraging thing is hearing how much other people have dealt with the problem of theft. One of the reasons I want to get out of the city eventually is that I am tired of the crime. Being a fulltime firefighter/EMT and part time cop in an urban setting, I deal with alot of shooting, stabbing, rape, beating, theft, etc. I was hoping to avoid all of that by moving away from the city. But I guess that human nature is constant to some degree and that there are "thugs and scum" everywhere. Oh well, rural communities at least still have a sense of "community" and don't treat each other with the same disregared as city folks do.

I'll just try to use y'all's suggesstions to minimize the theft.

Thanks,
Jim

[hawkiye]

Don't be discouraged. If you're 3 hours from a larger city you might be just fine. I am building about 30 minutes from Boise Idaho in the mountains so there are a lot of weekenders up there during spring and summer but the nieghbors where I am building can't ever recall a theft in the nieghborhood so its really just a crapshoot. but there have been some crime from time to time in the county however over all the people are more friendly and have that small town cohesivness

In small towns Sometimes it's just one or two people in an area doing all the crime because they came there to hide out from the city etc.

[rreidnauer]

Hey Jim,

Shootings, stabbings, rape, and beatings are definitely a common city thing, but simple theft is the #1 crime in rural areas. Just go to www.city-data.com and type in any small town, and you'll see that theft is always the most common crime.

The easist solution to counter theft, is to make it difficult for the thief to take something. These people are opportunists, and are almost always lazy bums that won't go beyond much trouble to get something. (that's why they steal, instead of earning something) Not foolproof, but it's a sizable step towards security.

[knuckledragger]

I just got off the phone with Tom Gardner. He is a super friendly, very encourqaging guy. He spoke very highly of the LHBA, its instructors, and its members. For that matter, y'all have all been very accomodating. I am talking to two other guys from work, my brother, and my wife about trying to attend the first class offered in 2008 so that maybe I can meet some of y'all face to face and thank you in person for your advice.

Jim

[knuckledragger]

Another idea for theft deterrence is keeping your equipment in an intermodal trailer that would commonly be used for shipping freight. They come in 8'x20' and 8'x40' sizes and are made out of steel. You can also have a "lock box" welded onto them that makes it impossible for someone to get at your lock with boltcutters. I found one today that was 8x20 for $1600. I know that is alot to spend, but if you have alot of valuable equipment on your worksite it may be a worthwhile investment.

Jim

[Kola]

Good idea Jim and 1600 clams isnt too costly when it is protecting thousands more!
Since I have been making trips up to my land (building my deck, putting up fence etc) I have been hooking up my small 2-horse trailer and hauling my tools in it. The trailer cost me $500 (used) 7 years ago and I have used it to haul my horses, move furniture, haul supplies, lumber, gravel, you name it. When I head up to my land I throw in my tools, chainsaw, cooler, 6 pack of root beer,etc in the trailer and off I go. When I am done I haul the stuff back down in the trailer. It costs me a bit more in gas to haul the trailer( approx 5-6 more bucks) but I think it is worth it in the long run. Once I get my generator and other valuables, I will do the same thing. I plan on getting a few large tote boxes to make the loading/unloading process a bit quicker.

2 cents, a wooden nickel and a half-chewed toootsie roll..all left in the washer!
Kola