Brand Spankin' New

[lishkersch]

Well I thought I had everything figured out until I came across this website! I am new here so I will take a minute and introduce myself before asking my questions :D

I am a 25 year old college student and have recently come to the conclusion that I would like to live as simple a life as possible and try and avoid a huge mortgage. I would love to live off the energy grid on a nice secluded lot somewhere. I am here to learn as much as I can about building an alternative energy log cabin!

Near my home there are some model log cabins that you can walk through, that were built by the Amish locally in my area (Minnesota.)

I have always wanted to live in a log cabin, and when I walked through them it really solidified the idea for me. I looked at their website and saw many examples of cabins that I really like, such as this 1050 ft2 cabin:

http://countrytimecabins.com/gallery/albums/fullsize/20051223_30x35_large.sized.jpg

Description : 30' x 35' cabin with two bedrooms and a bath on main, screened porch, huge loft, custom windows, wrap around porch, custom cabinetry and counter top, spiral staircase, heated floor, fireplace and a double car garage.

(I hope I did that right...!)

I really like the idea of living small and living simple and this seems like a nice way to go about that? The kit costs $4o per square ft, so for this particular cabin it would cost $42,000 and then me and my bf would assemble it ourselves which they made seem pretty dang easy

"Three ways to cabin ownership:

Shipped complete

Kits: Our kits include everything you need. All of the logs will be cut to length and numbered for placement. Country Time provides an instructional chart , nineteen pages of written instructions with graphics, and a videotape showing a cabin being built. Our management is available to coach you through the process.

Built on-site: Our crews can build your cabin on-site. This is necessary when a truck cannot deliver a cabin to the site or the cabin is too large to ship


Here is some more information from their WEBSITE (http://www.countrytimecabins.com/i) :

Frequently Asked Questions

Price: $40???$90 per square ft., depending on size and accessories.

Shipping size: Maximum of 16 ft. wide and 48 ft. long. Can do double wides and additional 8 ft. in width side rooms.

Wood type: White Pine.

Manufacturer: Craftsmen in Wisconsin.

Manufacturing time: 4???6 weeks.

Delivery terms: FOB central Wisconsin.

Foundations: 10 x 18 ft. cabins can use treated lumber, concrete blocks or a 6 in. deep bed of crushed rock. Larger cabins can include 12???18 in. sauna tubes or a trench footing.

Stain: Stain may be required every six years. We use a stain that is water repellant and resistant to ultra violet light, mold and mildew.

Chinking: May need a touch up every 4???5 years.

Wall construction: We use a bead of industrial glue and threaded barn spikes to hold the logs together.

Payment terms: 50% on order, the balance on delivery.



SOOO, everything seemed fine and dandy UNTIL I saw this page and now I'm wondering if this is a scam? Should I be wary of this? I'm really confused now, and I have to admitt that I know very little as I have just begun researching! I would appreciate any thoughts or help 8)

Thank you!

Alisha

[heidiree]

Maybe I'm spoiled from being here and seeing full, beautiful logs on all the houses, but those houses don't look appealing at all! I *like* the look of a log, those square things (I don't know what you would call it, its certainly not a log anymore) just make the house look like a shoddy jigsaw puzzle!

[heidiree]

Oh, and didn't mean to sound unwelcoming. I'm fairly new myself. Welcome to the forums! It's a pretty good place. It'll turn you into a log cabin purist, though :)

[lishkersch]

Oh no worries Heidi :D

That is the general sense I have gotten from the site, so I'm questioning myself as well right now. I just want to make as well researched and educated of a decision as I can. I do have to agree... those are not logs!

I can't lie and say it doesn't still look appealing to me though.. although I think I like almost any cabin, I just love them all around.

[DMT]

I feel endeared to you...you sound like a younger version of me. At 28 I got influenced by a hubby that didn't have the same "minimalist" ideas and here we are 15+ years later with a big mortgage. He is now however bying in to the vurtues of avioding unnecessary excess. We have purchased 20+ acres in the country (away from city traffic) and plan to build. As for YOUR house...look at The Log Home Plan Book - Cindy Thiede. This is basicly a picture book where you can dream big and look at pretty log houses. Then hit the library for anything & everything they have about log cabin construction. Read the forum entries here. You'll be sucked in to a real log construction before you know it. Stick to your dreams sister!

[rreidnauer]

SOOO, everything seemed fine and dandy UNTIL I saw this page and now I'm wondering if this is a scam? Should I be wary of this? I'm really confused now, and I have to admitt that I know very little as I have just begun researching! I would appreciate any thoughts or help

Is it a scam? No, I don't think so. Actually, they openly tell you to expect to perform preventative maintenance. Being that the kit has no inherent self protection built into it, you will be applying sealer regularly, or else face serious rot problems. (don't know why they bring up chinking, as the home shown doesn't have any) Now, they don't tell you some other things. One biggy that most small kithome manufactures seem to overlook is the insulation factor. If you're in a fairly mild location, it's no big deal, but with you being in Minnesota, then those five inch thick walls aren't going to be very efficient. The roof looks like it isn't more than 6 to 8 inches thick too. I've seen some kit manufactures deal with this by using a double wall around the entire exterior, with a dead airspace. (I'm still undecided if that's a good idea) Another thing I don't like is the skimpy foundation methods they suggest. The lifeblood of your cabin (or any home) is the foundation. Skimp here, and you'll definitely regret it later.

Food for thought. I don't think a scratch-built , butt & pass home is for everyone, and in some cases, a kithome is a better way to go, but if you are willing to put in the time and sweat, then you can get a home of far superior quality for equal to, to significantly less than, what a kithome would cost you. If you think mechanics instead of aesthetics when shopping, (don't get sold on just good looks) you should come to a good decision.

One thing I really don't care for with the smaller kit homes is the 100% use of wood on EVERY SQUARE INCH of the inside. Wood is nice guys, but there is such a thing as too much. :lol:

[lishkersch]

hello and thank you very much for the the replies!

I am actually looking to relocate and am thinking either OR or CO. (I like OR, boyfriend likes CO) I've had 25 years of snow so CO isn't as appealing to me haha.

I would definitely like to customize a kit so that it has more energy effficiency. Do you know of any kits that have a better/good reputation?

Also, thank you for the book information DMT! :)

-Alisha

[akemt]

Have you read the articles on the main website about kit homes? They all pretty much have the same inherent problems and it is well explained on the website. While I can tell you which company I thought most polite, I would not recommend a log kit company.

I looked through mulitiple "kit" building systems, from stick-built open panel to steel to log, and finally found this website. It took me a while to decide to take the class, but once we took it, we were sold! We've run into some issues getting logs in our location (of all things) and I have done my share of circling around and looking at other building methods again, but I always end up right back at the Skip-style log homes. I must say, though, that I have never thought of going back to a kit log home.

The fact of the matter is, it is likely that the Skip-style log home will take a great deal more work on your side. Depending on the amount of work you put into it, it may cost less, the same, or more than a kit home...that's up to you and your circumstances. BUT, you'll end up with a HIGHER quality product in the end instead of a house with a roof that needs lowering, logs that need continual maintenance, etc, etc, etc.

Have you looked through the pictures of student-built log homes on the main website? They are gorgeous and I drewl over them from time to time myself...Hopefully we'll have our own within a year or so!

Best of luck in your decision making process!

[ribbonevt]

Hello lishkersch,

I agree with, akemt

If you haven't gone to the website then you should go and take a look.

http://www.loghomebuilders.org/

Chris

[lishkersch]

Thanks guys, I did read all the links before posting and while i did gather some information that concerned me, such as the potential danger of chemicals that log kits wood may be treated/stained with, it seemed like most of the articles told me what they would tell me...if i took the class. :P

[rocklock]

Lets be Frank;
You would be spending 42K for your logs, windows and other elemental stuff. You should be spending a bunch of money on insolation or a bunch every month to heat this little puppy. Note; 5 inches of wood will give you R10. Most folks want to have at least twice that on the walls... You will pay now or much more later.
I will be spending 42K for logs (30 x 30 log home), windows and other elemental stuff. My real expense is all the stuff like getting a well, a roof with R32 insulation, kitchen, electricity, truck, construction trailer and other stuff, which has and will cost much more than 42k.
You will have about 1000 sqft and I will have 2565 sqft because I will have a basement, and a second story spending about $75 a sqft. Do the math...

I said all of that to say 42k is just the first step. All the other stuff is where the real expense lies. I believe you should do more research to figure out what you want. One of the ways is to take the log home builders class. It will answer most of your questions about what is possible... This forum will help with the rest...

My bother-in-law lives in a manufactured home that was moved in and set up for about 65K. He seems to enjoy the country life style... Just not my cup of tea...

Good luck
Dave - life is a journey - enjoy the trip!

[lishkersch]

thanks rocklock,

I see your point and it is a very good one. Another huge expense will be finding suitable land to put it on. This might also prove to be our biggest problem. We would really like to relocate somewhere with a close enough commute to Portland OR, or somewhere else in OR where we can find decent jobs. Im have a BA in Environmental Studies and Anthropology, and my by boyfriend has a BA in business. We don't want a terrible commute but at the same time we would like to find decent paying jobs.

It will not be nearly as cold in OR as it is here in MN, so that should help with the heating factor. I also want to use alternative energy wherever possible and this may raise the building costs too. But I'd like to orientate it to the south, rearrange the window placement and eave lengths to maximize the sunlight intake, and run hot water around the walls and below the floor. (I'll need to add more to the walls) I'd also like to use a combination of solar and wind and I imagine that equipment is really exspensive too. I'd even like to use hydro if I'm lucky enough to have my own stream. In fact seeing as Portland gets 200 cloudy days a year I'm thinking maybe a combo of hydro and wind instead. Is there anyone out there who's succesfully used solar in the NW? Is hydro comparrible to solar, or better or worse as far as energy output?

As far as the size, 1000 ft2 was an upgrade for me as I was originally looking at around 500 ft2. My boyfriend thinks we need that much though considering I already have a 4 year old daughter and he would like to have a child of his own, so we need to plan for a family of four. I want to purposefully minimize the space we live in and try to keep our lives as simple and uncluttered as possible. Less space costs less money and requires less stuff. I plan on utilizing outdoor space, am thinking about a tiny guest cottage (Mobile Hermitage?), and a kick butt, round, screened in tree house, as well as outdoor furniture, hammocks ect.


It seems like in the end it may cost a gazillion dollars for a little premade cabin in the woods... but it would hopefully be perfect? haha.

I would love to take the class but I'm already in a bunch of classes here in MN and don't have the money to fly down. I am not planning to begin any of this until 2009 so I still have two years to research and refine my ideas. Right now I'm really just here to learn from everyone else who has done this type of thing already. I really appreciate all your advice! thank you. 8)

Alisha

[akemt]

I'm not the one that has researched the alternative energy, that'd be my husband. But, it sure seems like, from our conversations atleast, that a hydro (meaning using a stream/creek) system set up correctly can give you all the energy that you need. He doesn't post on this website, but I'm sure it has been discussed in the alternative energy forum.

[lishkersch]

Thanks Akemt,

I'll go poke around there, that would be great if it would provide enough energy. :D

Alisha

[sparky]

lishkersch, welcome. Your on the right track with your thinking process. Wow, to be twenty-five and thinking outside the proverbial 30 year mortgage box is impressive and I applaud you. :D But I would have to agree with all the info. gleaned from the above post as to the wisdom of these "cabins" as way to get there. Don't give up your basic philosophy and goal of a simpler, "mortgage free" or at least "Mortgage light" lifestyle, just continue to gather information and ask questions to find the path that best fits you. The value and quality of a Butt and Pass home is without question, I'm sold and it's the path I have chosen but it's not the only way to your goal. In your search for information allow me to suggest two books that might help you in your journey.

Your money or your life By Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin
Choosing Simplicity By Linda Breen Pierce

Sparky

[lishkersch]

Hi Sparky 8)

Thank you very much for the compliments. I do feel fortunate that I have realized this before I entered into a huge mistake. Most of my friends are starting to take out large mortgages that they can barely afford right now and I almost feel bad for them. But at the same time I understand this type of life isn't for everyone.

I appreciate the book information, I am definitely looking to read as many as I can in these next two years before making any final decisions or purchases.

I see you live in Bend :D how is it? nice? Are there jobs?

thanks!

Alisha

[The_Truth]

lishkersch,

Welcome! Looks as if most of us were looking to build a kit log home before we found this sight. The class was well worth the money, in fact, I decided to go to the class and had it all paid for and the day before my plane left I won $1500 on a lottery scratch off!! Class paid for!! 8)

The thing is, since you don't want to do anything for another 2 years, you might want to look to going to the class. The main reason I say this is because they say it takes about that long to get land, gather building tools and materials, get logs, etc. The information you will gain in the class will be with you a lifetime and you will never see trees the same again :!:

They teach a simple but strong way to build a home for as little or as much as you want to. The thing I like about them is that they are not pushy and if you look at the pictures of the homes built by former students, there is flexibility in the design.

There is my 2.3 cents.

[lishkersch]

Well I have to admit, there does appear to be quite a few satisfied customers with this class! I guess I'm going to have to give this some serious consideration!

I guess I just wasn't even considering doing it all on my own because honestly I'm not a very mechanically inclined person, I'm 5'3" and about 104 lbs! Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly believe I can do anything I put my mind to, and my boyfriend actually has some experience as he has been fixing up real estate and selling it for the past 10 years.

I thought the idea of putting the kit together sounded daunting, so the idea of putting it together completely from scratch seems somewhat overwhelming I think...

Could it really be that easy? :shock:

Alisha

[rreidnauer]

Could it really be that easy? :shock:

Alisha

The definition of "easy" is broad. The principles of butt and pass construction are very easy. The physical labor required (while keeping costs at their absolute lowest) isn't easy. You try to balance the cost factor against the labor factor. No doubt the more money you can throw at a project, the easier it will be.

A straight forward, two story, 25x25 would be pretty easy. The short logs should be easy to come by and significantly lighter than dealing with 40x40 size construction. It would also give you 1250 S.F. of floorspace on a fairly compact footprint. (and should be able to be built with only 17 pier blocks) Costs would be very low for something around this size. The more you learn to and do, the lower the monetary cost will be.

[lishkersch]

That sounds nice.... :wink:

I think I'm going to talk this all over with my boyfriend and have him read these posts and see how he feels about it.

I would love to go play in the woods in WA. Is it near the Hoh rainforest by chance? :D

[adubar]

lishkersch,

The class is held north of Seattle. The Hoh is about three to four hours away, including a ferry ride on the Olympic Penninsula (Northern part). To most Washingtonians, its the "end of the world." Its funny that very few people who live in-state actaully ever travel out that way. We usually see people from out of state.

A few of us members live out on the peninsula with the national forests our "back yard." A great place to still find good land and LOGS!

If you plan to stay a few days longer than the week-end class, you would have time to make a trip out to the Hoh. You can do it in a day from the Seattle area and sight see if you start out very early in the morning (catch the first ferry). Alternately, there are quite a few places to stay out this way, if you want to make it a few days of hiking.

If you like to surf, there is some of the best surfing spots about an hour's drive more around the horn of the peninsula past the Hoh.



-A

[lishkersch]

From the pictures I've seen it looks like the most beautiful place on earth! There's no way I'd get that close without seeing the Hoh :P

Thanks for the info, where you live on the penninsula, is it a long commute to a city for work? It sounds great!

Also, I can sympothize with the in-staters because here in Minnesota we have the Boundary Waters and I've lived here 25 years and have never been! I always make it half way up there and camp and hit some whitewater on the North Shore of Superior which is really beautiful too. I've wanted to make it to the BWCA for years and years, and now finally, this summer I'm taking my first trip up there.

As far as surfing I've never tried! We have a lot of lakes and rivers here (10,000 haha) so I'm pretty into canoeing/kayaking/rafting!

thanks again for all the great info, now I feel even more inclined to go to the class...

Alisha

[jeffro]

I can say it is the best money I have ever spent. I say that 9 months out from taking the class.

While I don't know if I could live with 3 other people in 1000 square feet, our plan is for ~2200 square feet. The class will make you rethink a lot of things, and make you excited about doing a lot of work.

Even for a 25x25 foot house, you probably could not place a log by hand unless you had really skinny logs and lots of hands. The short pieces in a kit can be lifted by hand, which I think is a reason so many people like the idea of putting one together and think it would be somewhat easy. A butt and pass is a lot more work to get out of it with minimal expense, but there are ways to do it.

Good luck in whatever you do.

Jeff

[lishkersch]

Thanks for the tip. I guess my concern right now is whether or not a kit could make me happy or not. I think it is safe to say that building it on your own would be preferrable but if one doesnt have the skill or time, is a kit a viable option? I mean, most cabins are built from kits these days and it's hard to imagine that they are all crap. If we put it together ourselves then we will can be careful and take our time in it's construction and even customize it's design.

I did talk to my bf about taking the class and he seems somewhat more interested than when I brought it up the first time. 8)

[adubar]

The class will arm you with enough knowledge to build it yourself. You should not worry about that.

One of the best examples of a building success story I've heard, was of a female student who went through the class but was not sure she could do the work herself--so, she found family, friends, and many other people to do portions of it. She made sure that she understood the techniques so that she could show others how to perform the heavy lifting pieces.

If I remember, she used her project managing skills along with her knowledge of the building techniques she learned with the LHBA to build a few more homes, sell them and retired.

If you get your boyfriend to join you in the class, you will double your ability to build your home.

You will find that you can apply many of the methods and philosophies discussed in class to other things in life, not just building a log home.

As an example, I'm in the process of looking for land to build, but in the meantime, I'm using many of the sourcing techniques discussed in the class to build a houseboat to moor in Seattle. I'll be building it at a significantly lower cost than if I had it built for me by a boat yard or purchased one on the real estate market. Most of the components will be free to me. My major cost will be moorage, which is significantly lower than an appartment in Seattle.

That gets to your question about commuting to Seattle from the peninsula.
A few of us do that. I work from home frequently, but I commute to Seattle as well.

I know of many people that live in Port Angeles, which is about 45 minutes from me (further out on the peninsula) that do the commute as well. My commute, including ferry ride, is between 1.5 to 2 hours. Most of that time is spent looking at evergreens, orcas and eagles.

A commute from Seattle to the south end (Tacoma) or north end (Everett) via I-5 is now around 1- 2 hours at rush hour---with bumper to bumper traffic.
I gladly make the sacrifice to live out here, as I usually only have to share the road with 5 to 10 other cars on my commute!

But, as I am required to be in meetings in Seattle more frequently, I've been looking for another place in town for the times I need to stay the night, hence a house boat.

-Andrew

[jeffro]

No, they are not all crap. But I would say that 99.99% of them will take a lot more upkeep and preventative maintenace work than a proper butt and pass home. Staining, sealing, more insulation work at the build time, as have been discussed.

There are lots of tips and techniques from the class that could be applied to a kit home, and you would then probably have one of the better kit homes around, if that is what you end up wanting.

Jeff

[RockEngineer]

Even if you get a kit the design makes a big difference in how it will last. Does it have adequate eves to keep the water off the walls? How is it attached to the foundation and how are the logs attached to each other? How well is it sealed to make it air tight? Are there areas that can get water in where the woods natural protective surfaces have been disturbed that will cause rot and future problems? Each method has advantages and problems. No one method is perfect for every person and every design. You have to look at the method the builder is using and figure out what the problems may be and how they are handled. If the kit design has flaws in their basic concept then no matter how good the builder there will still be problems. If the building system has worked out the kinks but the builder doesn't implement all of the safeguards built into the system or just does a crappy job there will be problems. A well designed and well built house whether kit, hand crafted or butt and pass LHBA style will be comfortable and last many years. I've done engineering on all kinds and seen many good and bad designs for each method. Live your dream but be assured the more information you have at your fingertips to arm you against those people who may be "selling snake oil" the better off you will be. The class is an excellent source of information no matter which direction you choose. :lol: :lol:

[rocklock]

Just one quick comment... Most kit homes built with green wood have their roofs built on jacks. Maintenance calls for lowering the roof...
Sorry, I aint living under a movable roof...
Dave

[RockEngineer]

Well Dave, for many of the log home building methods it is much better to have to lower your roof than to have a big gap at the roof line as the logs settle over the first 4 to 5 years after building. It's not that difficult to adjust the jacking screws and pull off and recut all your window and door trim every year but I agree that if you can have a method where you don't have to it simplifies things. It's all a matter of choice. If people choose not to use the LHBA butt and pass method then they need to make sure they account for the naturally occuring problems in other ways.

[JZ]

Hello everyone - I am another newbie (registered for the April 4 & 5 class) and have a couple of questions that flow from some of the postings I have read here.

One is regarding the construction costs and the other is regarding shrinkage, both of which will probably be addressed in the class, but like most people I can't wait.

The first one is in response to a reply from rocklock where he indicates the cost to build his log house is about $75 /sf - therefore the cost of his 2565 sf house would be about $200,000. Is this cost based on hiring a contractor to do some of the work, all of the work or is this the cost to do it yourself (I hope not)? I figure it will cost me about $60,000 to get power & telephone to our proposed house site, install the septic system and well and gravel the driveway (its over 3000' long). I hope I don't have to spend another $200k to build the house (mostly by myself - since my wife has back and neck problems).

The second one is regarding a statement I seen in one of the responses that stated the logs will shrink even with the B&P method of construction. If this is correct then why wouldn't there be settlement issues at windows and doors?

Any comments would be appreciated.

[kyle]

JZ,

I'll try and answer your questions.

1) Cost to build...This really depends on a lot of variables. Are you going to do all the work yourself or subcontract some out? Do you already own land or do you have to buy? Does your land have usuable trees on it or do you have to buy logs? If you have to buy do you have a good local source (I only paid $4400 for 140 logs) or do you have to pay premium and have them hauled in? Will you have a basement or a crawl space? Are you going to buy kitchen cupboards or build your own? Do you want granite counter tops? Do you want $5 sq ft tile or will $.80 cent tile do? Are you going to build a 4000sq ft home or a 1500sq ft home? Etc, etc, etc.

I could go on and on and on. Mostly it depends on what you want out of the home. I figure I could build a house for $15k to $20k if I really wanted to (not including land). It would take me considerably longer because I would be looking for good deals on selected items. On my current project I'm projecting to spend between 75k to 100k (including land price) but it will be more posh because my intentions will be to sell it in the future.

There are just too many variables to say exactly what it will cost. I know that my answer is vague but its the truth!

2) About logs shrinking...you'll have to wait and get that answer in the class. I don't want to be giving out any secrets!!! :D

[rreidnauer]

Welcome to LHBA JZ and congrats on your signing up for the class.

To answer your first question, see this comment (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13517&highlight=#13517) and this one too (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=13476&highlight=#13476) that I posted recently.

Pumping in electric 3000 feet is going to cost a ton, and is a difficult bill to avoid. If the electric company runs it in, it's going to be a fortune. One option is to have power fed to a small structure near the edge of your property close to where electric is available. Then, run your own power lines to the main house. (either trenched or suspended) The cost still be a bit pricey for materials alone, but still significantly less than the electric company would have done it for. I opted to go a completely different route. Though,I've already tied up bout $10K, I'm going with renewable energy. (solar panels and wind turbine) Totally off-grid and no electric bills for me. It requires a slight adjustment to my lifestyle, but nothing unreasonable. Conservation of energy is the most important, and I see nothing wrong with not wasting resources.

Second question, I'll just say that the class does answer that question, and I'll leave it at that. The whole class going, "Ahhhhhhhhhhh" is worth it. Sufficed to say, shrinking is inevitable, but settlement does not occur in a Skip style B+P home.

[greenthumb]

Rod, do you know how far the transformer can be from the end of the run? I would think 3000 feet would be a bit of a long run due to voltage drop. I was thinking about doing this myself since my driveway will be over 2000 feet, and the local EMC wants $6/ft to bury it, knocking off only a $1/ft if I bury it myself. We haven't discussed overhead lines yet- but I have a meeting with him Monday to see what that will run me.

I have considered the off the grid route, but some of my hobbies consume a lot of electricity, particularly welding. I could go with an engine driven welder for that(or large generator) and run the house on a combination of solar/wind/hydro with a battery bank, but I'm not sure I want to commit to that. It would nearly eliminate the monthly bill(though there is the replacement expense when the components are worn or outdated).

Hope this post doesn't take the thread too far off topic, but getting utilities to the site can be a major expense- and the biggest reason I'm not in a trailer on the property right now. If you want the privacy, a flag lot is worth it, just keep that in mind while looking for land. ;)

[silversalmonscott]

Hello greenthumb,

I just did this calculation for another member a week ago. So here it is!

The question you have about how far you can run power underground is really how much do you want to spend on trenching and wire. The further you get away from the power providers transformer the larger your feeder wire will have to be to allow for voltage dorp. You have to figure voltage drop on the "connected load" (amps used), not the AMP size of your electrical service.

I usually figure 100 amps of "connected load" for a house. It has been my experiance that you will almost never go any higher at any one time than that in a 3000 Sq ft. house with 4 to 5 people living in it.

What you could do is go 1600 ft. and use 2 sets of 500 MCM alum. URD tir direct bury feeder cables (this has two 500 MCMs and one 350 MCM neutral wire twisted together). This will not be cheap! If you are not fimiliar with wire size, 500 MCM is about 1 in. in diameter per wire. This is about as far as I would try to go.

You would use parallel (meaning 2 runs) of 500 MCM URD tri. Today's price is $6.75 per foot. So 1600 ft. lenght x $6.75 x 2 =$21,600 just for wire. WOW!! :shock: and that doesn't include trenching, putting it in the trench, back filling or terminating. I don't know what the power company charges per pole in your area but here it costs about $1000 per pole and about 300 ft between pole spans. So that would 6 poles or $6000. If it was me I would go with poles for a huge savings.

Hope that helps!

Scott :)

[greenthumb]

Wow, that wire is expensive... We're looking at around 2100 feet from the road to the house site- and I'd like a 200A main for the welding.

We're probably going to have to run overhead since it's cheaper- but that means I'll have to clear a lot more land since it's all in trees. They want a 30' ROW.

[heavyopp]

Scott failed to mention 1 small thing -- Underground you have to use a larger wire to handle the heat generated from the amps. You must figure this wire will not be cooled. Instead it is well insulated and must be capable of handling whatever heat may be generated. Thus large heavy wire.

Now overhead wire can be substantially smaller for the same amps. Just because it is in free air and will be able to cool rapidly.


Also big difference in aluminum vs copper. Copper is always the better choice but cost may be very prohibitive.

Jer

[JZ]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I really wasn't looking for an estimated cost for construction - I agree there are so many variables. My question was directed to ROCKLOCK who indicated his costs were $75 sf. and I was wondering if that cost was based on him doing all of the work (which would suggest my costs for a similar size house would be about the same if I did the work) or did he have contractors perform the work - in which case I expect my costs for a similar size house should be less since I plan to do virtually all of the work myself. Assuming my wife doesn't get fed up with the amount of time it takes me.

A little history here; My wife and I bought our retirement property just before Christmas and before closing the deal we checked out the costs for power, water, septic, etc. to make sure we weren't going to be surprised by some huge unexpected bill. We also checked out house prices and were originally going to put a "manufactured" home on the property since it was only going to cost about $140,000 plus basement. Then we checked out a few models and noted the lack of quality inherent in the construction. So I started looking at other options and came across this site, which really intrigued me. Some more research about log homes and I came back to this site. The philosophy and the concept appeal to me and I love log homes. The power is about $25,000, the well, pumps, supply line, etc are about $20,000 and the septic is about $10,000 but I hope to put this in myself (going to buy a garden tractor with a backhoe attachment).

I also bought the plans for the Procut sawmill but my chainsaw (Husqi 570 is kinda small so I will look for some used 4 stroke motor to power it).

The property (132 acres) was logged of all of the large evergreen trees so I will probably have to buy the logs. There are still plenty of trees about 30' tall and lots of deciduous trees that I will check out when I can get around the property better (still too much snow). There might be enough of those to use if that is OK. More questions for the class.

I can't wait to take the course.

John

[Oneshot]

JZ,
I'm building a 40x40 two story. Hope to have footers in buy March. I fully intend to build for approx. $20.00 per square. That being said I have all the logs I need although from what I understand thats not the biggest $ to be spent as long as you don't have to tranport them great distances. I will be doing all the work my self. This does not include well septic electricity. It will take me at least two years to complete. To me thats the hard part.

[rocklock]

JZ-
Yes. My son (he took the class as well) and I are doing all of the work that we can. We have several paid advisers but still we will be doing all the grunt work. I presume if you are building a 30 by 30 and doing the work your self, you may have similar results and costs... We are planning to finish in about two years.
Just a note - there is no way I could build this without the class and most importantly the stock plans.

Good luck
Dave

[silversalmonscott]

Hey heavyopp,

Not to say that you are wrong about having to up the size of wire in underground feeds, but I have never heard anything like that before :? . I have been in the trade for 15 years and a Master Electriction/Electrical contator for 8 years. I have never seen anywhere in the NEC that has a calculation for underground feeder deration. There is however a code and calculation that requires that you derate wire in conduit after you have 7 current caring conductors or more. The URD tri that I use and reccomended to feed the house is not installed in conduit unless you want it in conduit and it only has 3 current carring conduitors so deration does not apply. :D

Also the reason that overhaed feeders that are installed by the power provider are smaller is that they bring in a much higher voltage primary to the tranformer that is set on the last pole. When voltage gos up amperage goes down, therefore a smaller wire is needed. It has absolutly nothing to do with it hanging in the air. There are places where the ambiant air temp would be much higher in the air than it would ever get in an underground direct bury feeder. Say Phoenix. The NEC only allows us to use the 75 degrees C (or 167 F) ambiant temp for factoring ampacity of conductors. That is pretty hot. So if the tempiture would go over that you would have to increase the wire size.

Copper wire is almost never used as a feeder. It is way to expensive and will provide no extra benefit other than it would allow for 1 wire size smaller than alum. Copper is so expensive right now it is unbelievable, about 400% higher now than the same time last year! Where you get into proplems with aum. wire is where it was used years ago in size 12 and 14. The problem is that it expands and contacts at a much greater rate than copper. So when tied to an outlet or switch it will loosen up over time and can start a fire. But as a feeder it is torqued under large lugs that have much less chance of loosening over time.

I quess that there could be some crazzy inspector or juridiction somewhere that might make you derate underground feeders. I woud to see that formula!! :roll:

greenthumb,

What you might be able to do is talk to the power provider and ask if they would be willing to put there primary cables underground to a pad mounted transformer closer to the house site. That might be the way to go, but not all providers will do it. 2100 ft away from the transformer is just to far to carry much of a load without huge wire and cost.

Good Luck! :D
Scott

[heavyopp]

Scott -- Your the electrician.


I dig the trench. I've done quite a few installs for the power co here in NJ. Commercial and residential.

It just seems that we run larger wire underground than when strung in the air. When I asked why that was the reason I was told for it. Now remember this is the power company. They make up their own rules as they go. They don't have to follow what the inspectors say. It made sence to me what he said so I never questioned it further.

As an example If I was to dig a trench, as a private contractor, for utilities to a building I have to follow certain rules. Lets say that Primary Electric, telephone, cable tv and street light wires where all to be in the same trench.

When I dig it primary, unfused electric is at 1 level, street light which is fused at another, and communications at yet another level. These levels are to be 1 foot apart with the shallowest wires to have a minimun of 24 inches of cover. Thats a 4 foot deep trench! All levels to be inspected before backfill for the next level.

Now when the electric co digs the same exact trench with all the same wires present anything goes. Your lucky to get 18 inches of cover and all the wires usually lay right beside each other. No inspections.

The bottom line is - Take Scotts word for the wire size. He knows what he is talking about. I would trust him over a public utility co any day.

Jer

[msjones]

rocklock

I'm just curious, is your $75 a sq. ft. estimate for building in Hawaii or Washington?

[akemt]

Jz,

We're looking at roughly $50-55/sq ft for our roughly 3500 sq ft 40 X 40 home. Many of the members would balk at the prices we plan to pay for things. We'll be buying logs (probably from Canada), have them trucked to the Seattle area, then barge them to our island and trucked the relatively shorter distance to our site. That isn't cheap! Also included in the above price is $15,000 for hiring my college student brother-in-law for the Summer, about $40,000 in land and nearly $30,000 in land clearing, overburden digging and haul-off, gravel backfill, sewer and water tank installation, etc...all prior to a foundation. We estimate paying another $15-20,000 to have someone do the foundation for us too, though we're still debating whether to figure out how do that ourselves (ours cannot be the DIY option given in class --one of the joys of living in our area). If I calculate out all of the above plus roof, I'm paying about $39/sq ft for the land, site prep, and home shell/dry-in (including roof). We plan to do most everything else ourselves (with the help of my brother-in-law, of course), aside from the rental of a large telescoping fork-lift and our electrical tie-in. It may end up costing more than planned, but if so, chances are that it'll be because I wanted granite countertops and a huge jacuzzi tub, etc. ;) We're planning ours for resale as well.

It seems as though the majority of members who post online wouldn't consider spending what we will be (though I know of atleast one who projected spending more)...and even we could do it for significantly cheaper if we followed the two year plan. We *might* even be able to sneak by mortgage-free, though it'd be a very hard couple years living at my mother's! We're just too eager! DH wants to get out of the rat race and we want to make money as owner-builders. Though it is also worthwhile to note that for our area, even if we paid $75/sq ft, we'd be getting our large log home at half the price of stick-built construction that doesn't include land/land work.

Hmm...hope that made sense. I was trying to give you another reference point in answer to your question of rocklock. Best of luck; you'll love the class.

[rocklock]

msjones;
That is very funny - $75 a square in Hawaii(':lol:')

I am building on Camano Island, Washington....
Rocklock

[Shark]

You can't buy anything for $75 in hawaii :)
Beautiful place to visit but wow expensive!

[JZ]

It appears that some of the numbers include cost of land and outside services. What I was really looking for was the cost of the house from the foundation to lock up / occupancy. There sure is a big descrepancy regarding costs but with all of the input I beleive I have a good understanding.

Based on the breakdown akempt provided I can see that the building cost, exclusive of land, septic, water, power, etc is about $35 sf doing things yourself. I am sure this can still vary significantly but I have a better understanding now than I did before.

Thanks for all the help.

ps I got moved up to the Feb 17th class - THIS WEEKEND - looking forward to it.

[akemt]

That looks about right for us. Though, I still think that is a higher-end estimate mostly because of where we live and our timing, etc. Even buying supplies from the lower-48 States at Lowes/Home Depot (which members say are expensive places to buy) and then paying for barging on top of that is about half price for us --thus I say high end.

FYI: We're planning to get our logs from 100 Mile House BC, should all work out. No idea how close you are...

[JZ]

Our property is about 2 hours from 100 Mile house and logging trucks go by it every day. Should not be a problem getting logs.

My concern was initially about the amount of time it will take to build. When my wife and I seen talk about taking 2 years she got very concerned. Then in subsequent postings I noted those people were intending to build on weekends and evenings - ie they are still working full time.

We plan to retire and move onto the property in some temporary accomodation and building would be a full time venture. As long as my old body can stand the change from a desk job to hard physical labour our build should be considerably quicker.

John

[msjones]

I'm just starting to price things out. From the following estimates in this post such as, Oneshot approx. $20.00 per square, akemt roughly $50-55/sq and rocklock about $75 a sqft, are you figuring with a finished home inside and out including kitchen, baths, plumbing, electrical, etc. or just the finished shell?

[akemt]

Ms. Jones,

My estimate is completely finished inside and out, and includes land cost and land work. We may go higher, or lower, in reality...just depends.

And JZ, If we COULD retire and work on ours full-time (I'm 25 and Britt is 30 --no go yet!), I'd imagine we could have ours nearly completed in a couple of months --even with kiddos running around, etc. As it is, we expect to have the shell up and hopefully the first floor liveable by Fall (assuming our timing of getting the loan, land work, and logs all works out well for building this Spring/Summer). The timing of those few things has more to do with when ours will be liveable than anything else. Have you looked at the Wallace Falls Lodge "exceptional log home" under the student log homes link? It talks about how long it took the owner and his young daughter to build (What was she, 9 years old?)...should give you an idea of what can be done. Enjoy that class! It is coming soon!

[JZ]

Akempt,

I previoulsy noted the Wallace Lodge build time and thought that if a guy can do that with his 9 year old daughter surely my wife and I should be able to get the walls and roof up in a similar time frame if we work at it full time.

THEN I came a across a post in the "House Designs" thread where a retired couple moved into a trailer onto their lot, got the foundation walls completed in the first fall, started the log structure as early in the new year as the weather would permit (ie snow was gone) and they worked from what appears to be the beginning of May (maybe earlier) and just got the walls and roof completed by the end of November when the snows hit. Essentially it took more than one year to get the foundation, walls and roof completed. Don't know what stage the interior was at. It appears that the most time consuming part of the their build was getting the logs into position.

One of my wifes biggest concerns is that it will take too long to complete the build.

I know I could complete the shell of a stick house in a lot less time.

Well I am taking the class this weekend and I am sure I will have a much better understanding after the course.

Best of luck with your project.

[Kola]

I started many big and small projects with a timeframe in mind. It never worked out as planned but there came a time when I no longer cared how long it took, I just wanted it done right. I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that I cut corners or did shoddy work.

Good luck! :)

Cheers,
Kolaman

[adubar]

JZ,

It sounds like the couple you read about "took their time."


Comparing build times between stick frame and log building must be tempered with knowing which types of each you are building and their standard.

Comparing a platform stick built home (which is what 99% of stick built homes built today) to a B & P home built to the LHBA's standard is a bit like comparing a wooden lawn mower shed from the local home center to a wooden barn.

But, you can be very speedy with the LHBA's methods if you so choose.

Three months building time, from breaking ground to finishing the roof would not be a stretch--as it has been done before.


As for moving logs, there are many ways to accomplish that task. The great majority of them are flat out the WRONG way to go about doing it.(most books that cover log home building demonstrate the WRONG way to go about doing this task as a solo builder).

The LHBA's class shows you ways that can be used by a single person to do what many "professional builders" use a crew to do.


I can tell you I have have seen my fare share of platform stick-frame tract homes built and finished in as short a time as three weeks. I would never buy one.

I currently live in a Balloon Frame Stick-built home, which is nearing its centenial and which will still be here in 100 years. But that is a different story all together.

Regards,

A

[kyle]

A big difference in time to build is also the equipment that is used. Some people using manual tools are obviously going to take considerable more time to build than people using heavy equipment. Thats where Cost vs Time comes into play.