Skip Ellsworth thread over on Lhoti.com

[greg@lhoti.com]

The Skip Ellsworth thread (tome?) is certainly the most "popular" thread on Lhoti. Here are some stats as of this writing:
Almost 2 years old
Almost twice as many replies as any other thread
4 times as many views as any other thread


So what are the lessons learned here? How about you condensing it down and tell us what you think? Here are a few I would propose:

Beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder

Quality is also subjective

There are as many ways to build a log home as their are people to build them

What value do you put on your own time and expertise today and how does that change in several years?

So, gentle reader here on LHBA, I invite you (unabashed trolling) to add your thoughts over on my website.
Here is the link:
http://www.lhoti.com/board

[rocklock]

Greg;
I am a retired Industrial Engineer (62) and I am building a log home in Washington. I have my basement finished and will start stacking logs when it get a little warmer this next year.
I have just spent 2 hours reading your web site. I think the vitriol of some of your members just put me off. Get in a fight with a pig - the pig wins either way and enjoys getting dirty. Note; Greg, I am not calling you a pig. The amount of ignorance is appalling. Also, it is very clear that many of the members are log home builders as are you (35 log homes built and 200 designed). They are very biased.

The biggest criticism is the two day class. If you have spent 27 years building log homes, a two day class in comparison is nothing. Hence, regardless of how many of our members go to your site, "skippy" gets no respect. I am saying this because our members can save some time by not going to your site.

I would suggest the butt and pass method of building is a new paradigm. You can be the best 5 and 1/4 inch floppy disk maker in the world, and no one will buy your product. You can be the best buggy whip maker in the world, ditto.

I have tried to notch a log - and failed! I will never try again. But I can drill a 1/2 inch whole in a log, stick a 1/2 inch piece of rebar in the hole and pound the stuffin out of it! At 6'4" and bigger than most linebackers in the NFL this is my kind of log home!
Dave

[greg@lhoti.com]

Well, Dave, you are right on many points but not all. True, folks are poloraized either for or against B&P + lots of rebar (Skip's) method. Up until a few years ago , I would have dismissed Skip's method out of hand (as you can imagine after 35 handscribed homes). However (as I said in one of my posts) we designed a home for one of your alumni, and I was granted the opportunity to study all his notes from class. I was generally impressed with how much information Skip and his instructors were trying to pour into your heads in 2 days. My conclusion is the B&P/rebar method is a viable one with proper overhang, foundation, seismic holdowns, ventilation and a few other things. Of course, I prefer scribe fit, but there are more kit builders (and I have listed over 400 on my front page) thand handcrafters (I include Skip's method as handcrafting...just not scribe-fit).

I was suprised that this thread has endured for so long. It obviously is engaging for a lot of folks. Which is why I started the thread Skip Ellsworth II. I wanted to try to get at the leasons/guts of that thread. Some might think it is a waste of time but I wanted to explore the balance of quality vs achievablity (Afterall, very few of us can build a piano but all of us could play a jew's harp or a jug...and if you've got a gig tonight...whatcha' going to do?) Now I'm not saying you all belong in a jug band :) (nor do I think you called me a pig :D but Forums exist for education, enlightenment and finally for empowerment.

Yes, I am unabashadly trolling, but I do enjoy spirited debate (as long as it is civil...and quite frankly you all are more civil than some on my site). So once again, I invite you all to Lhoti.com to read anything but mostly I'm interested in the "distillation" of that long thread. What is it all about?

[rreidnauer]

Wow, OK, I read through about 4 pages of that thread, and all I see is people who have taken the course, praising Skip's B+P technique, (opinions asked for by the original poster) and a bunch of people who have NOT taken the course, and bash the heck out of it without presenting an ounce of knowledge about B+P techniques. To me, it appears to be a forum full of ignorant folks who don't wish to remove the blinders and possibly discover a better way of doing things.

A couple things that peaked my attention was naysayers stating, "heck, Skip claims any inept fool can build a log home" when in reality, I believe, many people who arrive at the LHBA website, and moreover, those who choose to take the class, already have abilities to be quite handy. I think it would be the exception, and not the rule, that someone who wears an expensive suit to the office, and hasn't ever changed a sparkplug on their car's engine, little on having the tools to do so, is going to be the individual willing to go out and build himself a log home the hard (but affordable) way.

The other thing was Bob Warren of Khita Log Builders Ltd., who, right from the beginning, just attacks Skip without a shred of knowledge. (of Skip's ways) It just proves how kit manufactures will spread unbacked garbage for their own gains. Odd, the question was asked, and many folks who answered that question of their own actual experiences is thumbed aside by those with no knowledge of the LHBA course, and basically dismiss them as frauds. Why ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer? (or is it they didn't hear the answer they wanted to?)

How many people have to post their positive views before they are accepted as truths? Perhaps they need to come visit this forum, and find the negative comments on LHBA techniques. (if they can find one, as I've yet to read a single post of disappointment)

Nah, I have little use for a heavily biased and quite disdainful board who's basically going to call me a fraud or liar for posting the facts.

[TracyN]

Hi Greg. I've enjoyed reading many posts on your site. The scribe method is amazing and God bless anyone who has this much patience.

There is a lot of information crammed into the two day class and it moves pretty fast. I walked away feeling a little overwhelmed. But the real deal is not just what you learn in two days, it's the wealth of ideas and information that you receive from the members area of the board. They have a structural engineer in the members forum who goes out of his way to answer any and all question people have. Plus, there's this guy named Rod who is a bottomless pit of knowledge :D . Frankly, I can't imagine how people did it before the web.

[Steve]

Anyone who is thinking of dropping into the LHOTI thread should probably read this thread (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18) for a little background first. My previous request is still in effect... If you decide to post over there, please conduct yourself with integrity, respect and kindness.

Yes, the LHOTI forums have been called "the lion's den of kit builders". Obviously we don't see eye-to-eye on everything. ;) But the world is big enough for all of us.

-Steve

[mhiles]

I got a few smartass jabs in. :D

I got sick of reading a bunch of tripe about how Skip is bad, Skip is this, Skip's houses suck, LHBA idiot this, blah blah, Skip got rich, etc... WTF are these guys trying to do? Give everyone free kit homes out of their kind hearts?

Whatver.

There are some nice people over there who have different ideas about log homes, which is great. I've tried to emphasize the distinction between different kinds of log home buyers/builders and remind everyone not to compare apples to oranges.

[greg@lhoti.com]

Thanks TracyN, rreidnauer, rocklock (new member on Lhot this AM) and especially Steve. You are a well behaved group. Yes, mhiles you got a few jabs in but got some favorable kudos, too, for your trouble.

That long thread has topped 17,000 views and I am still wanting to understand what it is really all about. I understand the obvious differences in technique, and I understand passion, and POV. Perhaps, the very fact of this spirited debate says "There is no single best way" but rather a whole range of ways, some-of-which are more popular than others.

I'd like to say that the market upon re-sale will determine which techniqe is better but that implies a knowlegeable buyer and an informed seller, which is rarely the case. We are all biased, buyers and sellers alike. Afterall, we are speaking of an investment of a lifetime in both time and treasure. No one wants to be "wrong".

rocklock may have "hit" on one thing when he said "I have tried to notch a log - and failed! I will never try again. But I can drill a 1/2 inch whole in a log, stick a 1/2 inch piece of rebar in the hole and pound the stuffin out of it!" (A candid statement if ever there was one....Kudos!) A scribe guy wants to do "a perfect fit" every time and doesn't give a hoot about pounding rebar. Both techniques are valid, both play upon individual strengths and speak to what is important to each individual. And there is no doubt rocklock will have faster results...so expediancy is important, too.

Anyway, if you do venture over to Lhoti, try not to get caught up in the passion but look for what is behind the long thread and give me your thoughts in Skip EllsworthII. BTW, many thanks for allowing me to post here! Constituo, ergo sum :D :D :D

[adubar]

Funny threads. Took me a bit to read through.


Don't want to disparage you Greg, but the threads (particularly the original that has been running so long) do not seem to be a good use of time, simply for the fact that one or two writers on the forum seem caught up in railing against a building method they seem to know nothing about. And they certainly don???t seem to want to learn or see any view other than their own. The reader is forced to "wade through" nonsense and tirates to get to any real information. The new thread is more on base, as we have yet to see any real show stoppers in the tirate area. I hope that is a thing of the past for your forum.

I must say I disagree with the attitude that a "flamer" should be retained on a forum due to knowldge they may posess.

In my experience, a man's words define him. If he can't hold his tongue, it very well won't be his only difficiency. All about him becomes suspect.

-A

P.S., In the PNW, resale of butt and pass homes is comeasurant with the going market. Although, you do not see them on the market as often as other typs of log construction. We do see plenty of "hand crafted" and especially kit homes going for far less than asking and market property values due to problems found with them during the bidding process. In WA State, a full disclosure must be made to the bidder before a sale.

[LoggerDon]

"Mortgage repayments absorb 42% of average take home pay."
This is from a British news article. I don't know what the American statistics are.

This is the main reason people are attracted to LHBA and the butt-and-pass method. I like log homes but from a homebuyers perspective, it's not worth it to me to pay a scribe guy a few extra
hundred thousand dollars to practice his art. And kit homes have too many built-in problems.

The butt and pass method produces beautiful homes for much less. It's much faster to build, stronger, and requires little or no maintenance. The reason more people don't use it is because people don't know about it.

I wish everyone well who wants to build a house using any method. My wife and I took the class in Sept 06 and will build this spring.

By the way, regarding your talk of a "jug band", your arrogance is noted.

[adubar]

The dire truth in many parts of the U.S. is that mortgages can take more than 50% or more of a person's income. Foreclusures have been in record high numbers in many areas.

Part of the reason can be traced to changes in lending practices and yes, laws. We can thank the 40th US president and the congress in session at the time for the no down payment home loan and credit cards for minors.

Many professional Americans under the age of 50 are seriously over extened. Many families now have both parents working, which tends to inflate the amount of mortgage that they take on.

Unfortunately, many loose their jobs at some point or another, or are in some way unemployed for a time(especially in the brave new world of "outsourcing"). In the end, quite of few people are taking on mortgages that they cannot possibly afford on one single income alone.

The old idea of never paying more than 25% of one's income for the roof over one's head has been left in the dust.

-A

-A

[mlr1968]

Simplicity in motion er I mean hammer in motion. :D First of all I personal have no problem with someone disagreeing with our assoction method of building, but what are the reasons? Being specfic about the reasons why you don't like it is a good place to start. Attacking Skip and the rest of the LHBA is a fruitless and well stupid endeavor that accomplishes nothing!! As far a chinkless methods, to complicated for me but I really Love the beauty of a chinkless, scrib fit log house. Lot's of time consuming hard work, but ANYONE working with logs to build a house knows it ain't easy!! Nothing worthwhile is. And as a side note Skip has built a Scandnavian Chinkless which can be viewed on the association web site, just look for it, can't remember where but it is in the pictures section. Also, I don't know anyone who builds anything for free!!! well habitate for humanity but that's all I know about!! Bottom line it is a free country( time being any way) Don't automatical assume you got it right, listen and you might get a new wrinkle on your brain. Peace out.
Michael

[mhiles]

I've done a little more reading over there and found another topic about LHBA classes.

http://www.lhoti.com/board/showthread.php?t=1352

In the first page, Tim Bullock claims, "Skippy is out of touch with reality, most and soon to be all building codes will not allow you to build "skip****" unless you want to homestead in Alaska. "

An unadulterated lie.[/url]

[damon]

I keep seeing alot of those guys bashing the B&P method but I never really saw any legitimate information on why they think the method is inferior. The way some of those professional builders conduct themselves makes me wonder how they ever do business. I get a mental image of a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum from reading a few of those posts.

[heavyopp]

OK so I've been reading for awhile. I just decided to register a few days ago. I've been in contact with Chuck about the classes.


My question is -- Why is this method of building supposed to be so Inferior? Has anyone ever seen a stick framed house built. Recently. I work with them almost everyday and they are not made to last. They are made to sell quick. I can't see how this method would be inferior.


What am I missing? Let me ask this -- What would be an old B&P home? They look pretty strong and long lasting to me. Does anyone know of a 100 year old B&P home?

There is no way I am going to scribe a log to fit on another. I'm sure I could do it I just don't want too. That would be a project I would never finish cause it has to get boring quickly and most people who know me say I have loads of patience and dedication.

Jer

[rreidnauer]

The way some of those professional builders conduct themselves makes me wonder how they ever do business.

:!: EXACTLY :!: 'nuf said.

[nobleknight]

01-02-07

Wow!

It is really sad to read those posts. It is obvious to me, but to the credit of the ignorant, they thrive on hurting others. This gives them credence in the world. If they throw around cuss words, other people of their ilk cuddle up to their level. Much like a bully on a child's playground, they quickly gather other cowards and sheep to their flock. Just ignore rabble of this nature. It only serves to bring you down to their level. I always pray for the tormented. However, the uneducated ignoble always will be just that.

Tom
nobleknight
class 01-15-05

[heidiree]

It's that forum really that brought me here. I was so disgusted by the attitudes of the kit/milled/whatever they wanna call it builders. Meanwhile, I've seen nothing but respect and common deceny on the LHBA side. I suppose that's an integral portion of it -- you guys all look out for eachother.

Glad to be here!!

[rreidnauer]

Welcome heidiree. There's no need for us LHBA members to get bent out of shape. We know that we got a very good design, and have nothing to sell. (hense no agendas) The only reason they get bent to the point of lying, flaming, and cursing, is because they know we got a great design that can't be beat and we can point out their design defects, (and how they try to deal with them) and there's nothing they can do about it, because the truth hurts.

I'm sure LHBA appreciates the advertising over there. Negative or not, it still leads people here to freely draw conclusions for themselves.

[TracyN]

Hello heirdiree. Rod is absolutely right. It is such a simple and excellent design.

I researched log homes (mostly kits) for almost a year. I almost gave up on the idea of building one because I couldn't get around all the settling issues. Screw jacks, springs, slip joints? If this is what is required to make a log home work, I didn't want one anymore. Then one night I typed in "Log home settling" in Google and it brought me to the LHBA site. I read every piece of information I could find in the none members section and signed up for the class 3 days later. Best $$ I ever spent.

[LoggerDon]

Hi Heirdiree,

What brought me here is a trip I took to a local builder. I sheepishly asked what it would cost to have him build me a home. He put his feet up on the desk and smugly said "Everybody wants a log home. I could build you one for $300 per square foot".

I live in a mountain area in Southern California where the prices can get high, but $600K for a 2000 sq ft home seemed insane. That was not including permits and land. When I told him it was out of my league, he said if I did a lot myself it could come down to as low as $250 per square foot ($500k).

On the spot I gave up on my dream of living in a log home.

Two weeks later I found the site by accident when I was reading about Bruce Lee (Skip was his student). I was skeptical and spent 3 days reading nearly every post and page including testimonials. I figured it it were a scam it was the most incredibly detailed scam I ever saw. I wrote Skip Ellsworth in the Phillipines and we exchanged half a dozen emails in two days.

I signed up the next day. My wife thought I was crazy but ended up attending the class with me (Sept 06). We've purchased our land and plans and are now shopping for logs and tools. I also put in about 20 hours a week in research which is actually fun.

Good luck to you whatever you decide to do.

[ribbonevt]

OK so I've been reading for awhile. I just decided to register a few days ago. I've been in contact with Chuck about the classes.


My question is -- Why is this method of building supposed to be so Inferior? Has anyone ever seen a stick framed house built. Recently. I work with them almost everyday and they are not made to last. They are made to sell quick. I can't see how this method would be inferior.


What am I missing? Let me ask this -- What would be an old B&P home? They look pretty strong and long lasting to me. Does anyone know of a 100 year old B&P home?

There is no way I am going to scribe a log to fit on another. I'm sure I could do it I just don't want too. That would be a project I would never finish cause it has to get boring quickly and most people who know me say I have loads of patience and dedication.

Jer


Hello Jer,

The classes are a step in the right direction.

What is it that you are talking about when you say ???Why is this method of building supposed to be so Inferior???? are you referring to stick or B&P?

You said ???and they are not made to last. They are made to sell quickly??? and again are you referring to stick or B&P? If you are talking about stick then that would be enough for me to not want to buy a stick house anyway.

As far as a 100 year old B&P home, you will have to get that from one of the long timers here, there are none in my area of Vermont that I know of.

If you are talking about stick homes then it is not that it is inferior, so to speak, but it???s that it is more costly to build them, less energy efficient, more maintenance involved, and will not stand up as well to the punishments that mother nature can trough at it.

And if you do just a little more research you will fine that there is no scribing involved with the B&P method.

Chris

[vstrommer]

Greg from lhoti writes:

"Yes, I am unabashadly trolling, but I do enjoy spirited debate (as long as it is civil...and quite frankly you all are more civil than some on my site). So once again, I invite you all to Lhoti.com to read anything but mostly I'm interested in the "distillation" of that long thread. What is it all about?"

In response I'd like to say that I read the poison on that forum about LHBA several months ago when I first started investigating log home building. I personally don't want to have anything to do with that forum or the personalities that post on it. It has nothing to do with "spirited debate" or even log home building. I'm not interested in "spirited debate," I'm interested in knowledge and the encouraging support that I find at LHBA. There is no point in wasting time being baited into foolish arguments on Lhoti. Life is too short. If people on Lhoti don't get "what it's all about" then that is not my concern. There are too many people who are genuinely interested in supporting each other on LHBA to waste time trying to convince egotists who don't want to be convinced.

You want to know "what it's all about?" Then sign up for the class like I did. I'll be taking the class this month and I'll be there seeking to learn and make friends not debating.

LHBA and this forum do not need to be infected with the arrogance and hostility which is so abundantly found at places like Lhoti. This thread needs to be abandoned.

[pdthct]

I am in full agreement with vstrommer and nobleknight. I came upon the other forum some time ago and have no desire ever to visit again. Waste of breath in my opinion even to mention the name.

[Basil]

In spite of the venom, there is useful information over there too. Hey, if I posted a website saying that you were a cheat and a fake you'd get your feathers ruffled too. Many "industry" log home builders see the homepage in just that way. I've never liked the homepage, it's "get rich quick" claims, etc. but it's not my homepage. People that have spent their life learning a craft are going to be offended when someone comes along and says the things on our homepage. It's to be expected and knowing Skip, is quite intentional. While skip did say that not all are them are crooks, when asked to name one that isn't a crook he said he couldn't. When asked if there was a book about log home building that was worth reading, he said there wasn't one. It's the same attitude.

Both sides should just lighten up. I understand that some people don't want to go to other sites and be shouted down-life IS too short for that. But as long as everyone is civil there really is a lot of knowledge to be gained from others. MY2 cents

[mhiles]

It's my fault for posting in that topic over there, bringing it back to the top. I do think there's some interesting information about log homes in general over there. There's also some nice folks there who happen to be quite partial to B&P homes.

But, after finding that topic, the vitriol and libelous falsehoods were over the top. I'm not the kind of person who walks away from that kind of bull$hit without taking a swing.

On one hand, I can understand that some kit guys are mad because Skip calls them out. On the other hand, the truth is the truth. Skip has shone a light on many of the dirty secrets of the kit builder world. The only defense they've been left with is a bunch of personal attacks against him for being financially well-off and blatant, patently false lies about the engineering of the B&P build. They refer to B&P houses as Skip$hit because of the #4 rebar method of pinning the logs... except that I recently toured a small cabin that was over 100 years old that was built using 2" diameter carved hardwood pins to stake the logs together.

I don't have time to get involved in a bunch of rhetoric-filled flame wars though. I have made my decisions based on my extensive research, and coming to Monroe.

I certainly don't need to defend my decisions to anyone.

Well... maybe to my wife once in a while...


Anyone got any nuisance logs in SE Indiana that they want me to get rid of for them?? :lol:

[heavyopp]

OK so I've been reading for awhile. I just decided to register a few days ago. I've been in contact with Chuck about the classes.


My question is -- Why is this method of building supposed to be so Inferior? Has anyone ever seen a stick framed house built. Recently. I work with them almost everyday and they are not made to last. They are made to sell quick. I can't see how this method would be inferior.


What am I missing? Let me ask this -- What would be an old B&P home? They look pretty strong and long lasting to me. Does anyone know of a 100 year old B&P home?

There is no way I am going to scribe a log to fit on another. I'm sure I could do it I just don't want too. That would be a project I would never finish cause it has to get boring quickly and most people who know me say I have loads of patience and dedication.

Jer


Hello Jer,

The classes are a step in the right direction.

What is it that you are talking about when you say ???Why is this method of building supposed to be so Inferior???? are you referring to stick or B&P?

You said ???and they are not made to last. They are made to sell quickly??? and again are you referring to stick or B&P? If you are talking about stick then that would be enough for me to not want to buy a stick house anyway.

As far as a 100 year old B&P home, you will have to get that from one of the long timers here, there are none in my area of Vermont that I know of.

If you are talking about stick homes then it is not that it is inferior, so to speak, but it???s that it is more costly to build them, less energy efficient, more maintenance involved, and will not stand up as well to the punishments that mother nature can trough at it.

And if you do just a little more research you will fine that there is no scribing involved with the B&P method.

Chris


Chris I guess it all came out wrong. I was asking why the other forum felt that B&P was so inferior. I do work around stick built homes almost everyday. They are pure junk lately. I absolutely hate the vinyl highway that is created. The current project I am on is around 275 single family homes. Starting price is somewhere around $600,000 and they are junk. I would never buy one and am not proud to be part of them but they do feed the family and pay my mortgage.

I have been reading a ton here lately. Staying up way too late. I'm thrilled I found this. Just what I want to do. Pack up and get away from the rat race.

I currently live in NJ and am looking at property in rural NH. I didn't mean any of my comments to be negative. Not in the least.

I've been put on the waiting list for one of the early classes this year. I will book the march class just in case.

I'm thrilled to be here, Jer

[heidiree]

It's my fault for posting in that topic over there, bringing it back to the top. I do think there's some interesting information about log homes in general over there. There's also some nice folks there who happen to be quite partial to B&P homes.

But, after finding that topic, the vitriol and libelous falsehoods were over the top. I'm not the kind of person who walks away from that kind of bull$hit without taking a swing.

On one hand, I can understand that some kit guys are mad because Skip calls them out. On the other hand, the truth is the truth. Skip has shone a light on many of the dirty secrets of the kit builder world. The only defense they've been left with is a bunch of personal attacks against him for being financially well-off and blatant, patently false lies about the engineering of the B&P build. They refer to B&P houses as Skip$hit because of the #4 rebar method of pinning the logs... except that I recently toured a small cabin that was over 100 years old that was built using 2" diameter carved hardwood pins to stake the logs together.

I don't have time to get involved in a bunch of rhetoric-filled flame wars though. I have made my decisions based on my extensive research, and coming to Monroe.

I certainly don't need to defend my decisions to anyone.

Well... maybe to my wife once in a while...


Anyone got any nuisance logs in SE Indiana that they want me to get rid of for them?? :lol:

Michael, you're comments were the jewels in the rough in that forum. The only reason it wasn't a complete waste of time. That and McDonis (I think his name is?) Hope we keep folks like you around to keep things lively and spirited in these parts . . ;)

[mhiles]

I'm not going anywhere.

Those crackpots up in Monroe got me hooked on this stuff. I'm in for a whole lot of acreage and several thousand worth of permits, tools, plans, engineering, and a trip to that bizarro land of WA state so far.

[adubar]

Forgive me if I sound bitter, and I must give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But Something I came across on the internet, which was one of the "flamer's" sites that post on LHOTI.com doesn't sit well with me.

In his text on his site, he goes on about his method of using a very narrow "groove," and yes, he did study under a certain someone many of us are very familiar with who likes to use v and w grooves. Leads me to believe he's encountered enough problems with his groove making style that he's gone to extremes to try to compensate. Then again, I'd have to take one of his homes apart to be sure. Makes me wonder if he's ever taken the time to study how a splitting maul works. Then again, maybe he has.

Other than that, I'm keeping the rest of my thoughts "happy."

-A

P.S. mhiles, I just re-read some of your posts over there and you wax philosophic. Were you a student of philosophy at one time? You do have a way with words. I wish you would post as readily here in that vain as you did there. I appreciated it very much!!!!! Thank you!

[mhiles]

Man I just call it like I see it.

I'm just a redneck software analyst with an attitude and a penchent for abandoning post-modern consumerism for a rural life of homesteading and inconvenience.

[heidiree]

Man I just call it like I see it.

I'm just a redneck software analyst with an attitude and a penchent for abandoning post-modern consumerism for a rural life of homesteading and inconvenience.

I thought you were like an engineer or something?

[mhiles]

I got my undergrad in civil engineering. I hated it so bad that I went back and got my CS and became a software guy.

[scoutwilly]

found this while roaming the net one day. Really helped me agree with all I learned in the class. http://www.bearfortlodge.com/bearfort_lodge/log_home_building/index.html.
Really shows the longevity of B+P.

[msjones]

That is one sweet lodge!

[heidiree]

I got my undergrad in civil engineering. I hated it so bad that I went back and got my CS and became a software guy.

That's quite interesting. I run an IT shop -- my husband tells me I'm a 'technologist' who hates technology. . . and *sigh* he's right!

[mhiles]

I started programming on PDP/11s and MicroVAXs in VMS & DiBOL when I was a little kid in the 70s. My dad worked for Cincom Systems, who would have been Oracle if the CEO hadn't rejected the emerging client/server model. TOTAL Database was the very first DB application ever.

These days, I am Microsoft MCSE & MCSD (.NET) and Oracle OCP. I design large systems for government contract clients.

I hate it with an undying passion, and am counting down the days until I can sell stuff like t-shirts we print in our side screenprinting business, woodcrafts & produce at my roadside stand.

We bought a whole bunch of acreage in southeastern Indiana and we're in the early stages of the homestead. We were fortunate that our property had an abandoned township one-room schoolhouse on it that gives us 900 square feet of room to live in while we're building.

To contrast, I currently live in a 5,000 square foot loft in a historic commercial building that we're selling to our first-floor tenant.

I need to find space to store all my crap.