wiring a log home

[Electric393]

Hi everyone

I have the oppurtunity to wire a log home in the near future and I was wondering if any one had any suggestions or interesting techniques. I've never wired a log home before and I've heard that it is a more technical process involving drilling and routing.

[KeithMN]

I have to say, this is the part I'm most nervous about in building my own log home. I hear people here saying that I can do it myself, but I find that rather ShOcKiNg! :shock:

:::imagining turning the porchlight on and flushing a toilet somewhere:::

[stockhatch]

Should be pretty simple. I would put all recepticles in the floors, so you dont have to worry about getting up into/onto the walls with anything except switches. Keep the majority of your switches in interior walls and things will be even easier. I imagine you could notch, or otherwise sneak some of your wires along door frames, behind trim etc.

[ribbonevt]

I have to say, this is the part I'm most nervous about in building my own log home. I hear people here saying that I can do it myself, but I find that rather ShOcKiNg! shock

imagining turning the porchlight on and flushing a toilet somewhere

flushing a toilet somewhere

That is good Keith ! I like that D

"stockhatch"

Keep in mind that some states/countys/towns won't let you put receptacles in the floors. and most codes say 18" off the floor.

I'm lucky enough that mine state/county/town doesn???t even have zoning codes in it. lol

You also have to be careful about mop water and spilled drinks, ext...

Heck, my town will allow me to do just about anything that I want. Boy am I lucky to live here.

I do like the idea of keeping them on inner walls.

Good Luck, Electric393

[ribbonevt]

You know, evil x roll

I have tried to do quotes ever since I have been posting here at this site and I guess that I just don???t get it, because they don???t work for me. They always just show the quote [ boxed ] sings but never show up in a separate quote box area like others do???????????

SORRY, FRUSTRATED

[rreidnauer]

Hi everyone

I have the oppurtunity to wire a log home in the near future and I was wondering if any one had any suggestions or interesting techniques. I've never wired a log home before and I've heard that it is a more technical process involving drilling and routing.

Hello Electric393,

What kind of log home are you wiring? I'll assume it's a chinkless kitbuilt, and you are an electrican for now.

Floor receptacles would probably be easiest as Stockhatch says, but ribbonevt also points out they may be in code violation, that is unless, you install code compliant floor receptacle covers. (NOT a cheap option) So other options are surface mounted Wiremold, (YUCK!) Or to drill down the logs during construction, so the wire can be fished in from below (this can be an incredible pain for light switches) Who knows, if it's a kithome, they may have made provisions for wire routing already! If it's a Skip home, with a chinking cavity, your wires can be routed from an ajoining interior walls, laterally in the chinking cavity, to the neccesary locations. (much easier)

Oh, and Ribbonevt, don't beat me up for asking what may be an obvious question. (last time I didn't ask such a question, it caused me a weeks worth of grief) Do you click on the "Quote" button in the upper right corner of the person's message box you are attempting to quote?

My appologies if your answer is, "Of course I'm clicking THAT button!"

[ribbonevt]

Hi Rod,

Yes, I have tried it that way, also by using the quote button at the top of the ???reply page??? and by typing in the proper
script, then the text and then the proper ending . Like I said I just don???t get it. I work on computers for a living and I have a web site that I just started a while back so I get most of it, but not this. I must be doing something wrong. Still confused

Thanks for the interest, Chris

[stockhatch]

Hi Rod,

Yes, I have tried it that way, also by using the quote button at the top of the ???reply page??? and by typing in the proper
script, then the text and then the proper ending . Like I said I just don???t get it. I work on computers for a living and I have a web site that I just started a while back so I get most of it, but not this. I must be doing something wrong. Still confused

Thanks for the interest, Chris

Clicking on the quote button works fine for me...

What browser are you using?

[ribbonevt]

Your basic internet explorer.

[ribbonevt]

Hi Rod,

Yes, I have tried it that way, also by using the quote button at the top of the ???reply page??? and by typing in the proper
script, then the text and then the proper ending . Like I said I just don???t get it. I work on computers for a living and I have a web site that I just started a while back so I get most of it, but not this. I must be doing something wrong. Still confused

Thanks for the interest, Chris


just to try it again with quote button at the top right, see what happens.

[ribbonevt]

sorry Electric393

for taking up your space

[rreidnauer]

HA!!! I know what it is. You got the option box marked "Disable BBCode in this post" checkmarked.

You can permanently undo that option in your profile options.

[ribbonevt]

HA!!! I know what it is. You got the option box marked "Disable BBCode in this post" checkmarked.

You can permanently undo that option in your profile options.

OK IT IS ON, LETS SEE IF IT WORKS

ROD YOU ARE A GENIUS

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH THAT HAS BEEN BUGGING ME FOREVER

[stockhatch]

LOL. Very nice. Back to the floor recepticles... I read on another forum that somebodys cat relieved itself over one and cooked itself :( Another strike against them I guess. I still plan on using them though. (Yeah, we do have to use special boxes for them here too) YMMV

[stockhatch]

Oh, and one could always just pull power to the ceilings and use pull-chain keylesses :D Save on switch wiring hassle...

[stockhatch]

Oh, or you could pull power to the fixtures and then use remotes on the wall(or wherever you wanted them to be). You could buy a charger and a bunch of rechargeable batteries and be set. Then you could turn everything on/off from the couch :) I also hear they have battery free wireless switches now, but they are expensive(like $90 a switch)

[adubar]

Electric393,

Routing logs while building; running wire behind mouldings next to the floor; running wire channels along door and window openings before installing them --outlets and switches are then mounted on next to the door or window; and mounting in floors are some common ways to run wire and place outlets/switches in vairous log construction methods.

Are you wiring an existing home or one that is being built?


-A

[rreidnauer]

... I read on another forum that somebodys cat relieved itself over one and cooked itself

I'll wager the farm that is total BS. It's easy to fool people into believing such tales, when they don't have an understanding of electricity.

[stockhatch]

Its quite possible for that to happen. It only takes a few milliamps to kill a human, and urine is conductive. I can see a small animal being killed by a standard 120 volt 15 or 20 amp outlet. If its not on an AFCI or GFCI its even more likely.

[rreidnauer]

I'm sorry, but you state figures without the facts.

You don't understand the current's dissipation characteristics within conductive fluids. You don't understand the nature of the current's path.

Actually, I'm quite happy that most folk don't understand electric, as it keeps them afraid and out of getting into trouble.

I'd be happy to pee in your electric panel to prove my point, if you'd like.

> credentials - 3 years schooling for residential/commercial/industrial electric. 8 years in the field as a residential/commercial/industrial electrician

[stockhatch]

Im also an electrician, though not as schooled apparently. Please explain why it is impossible to be killed by electric current passing through your body. And I would LOVE to see you pee in my panel LOL. Depending on the path the current takes to ground(through the chest cavity/across the heart) it is very possible for the heart to be stopped rendering a critter or person dead.

[Electric393]

HA HA.... Very entertaining guys. Thanks for all the help. I am an electrician, but I've never done a log home before and just looking for some tips. I don't know what kind of house it is I guess I should ask the home owner that question. I do know that I need to do all the drilling and routing.

I was doing some searching online and I found a company that has found a use for wireless switches in log homes. They claim that it will reduce the drilling and routing because there is no wire from the light to the switch and there are no switch boxes. Any comments about this technique?

www. AdHocElectronics.com/loghome

[stockhatch]

LOL. Maybe that turned into a bit of a pissing contest AHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! :D I wont be testing the theory, so I guess I cant really prove my point of view. All due respect to Mr. Reidnauer.

[dbtoo]

I believe the original question was more along the lines of 'what should I be aware of", not how to fry cats or jumpstart pace makers with your 110 wiring. ("pee on your panel" :lol: :lol: :lol: )

I assume this is a kit log home, you should ask the manufacturer for their recommendations. Before I came to the light, in my searching of kit log homes, I saw at least one manufacturer that actually predrills all of the electrical runs for you at the factory.
The ILBA (forgive me my friends) 'standard' has 1 paragraph in section 8 - http://www.logassociation.org/resources/ilbastandards.pdf To paraphrase (cause you can't quote them directly) Conform to all applicable building codes and allow for wall settling. Read their 'commentary', it's very interesting.

Back to fried cats....

Jack and Jill went up a hill
and both were struck by lightning.
Jack is dead but Jill just said
"It tingled and was quite frightning."

[stockhatch]

Geeze. You people are seriously twisted. This forum is really moving up my bookmark list :lol:

[dbtoo]

Geeze. You people are seriously twisted. This forum is really moving up my bookmark list :lol:

Only some of us. Others are much more sane. But you will keep moving the site up in the bookmark list!

[rreidnauer]

Well, the point I was trying to make is, I don't want people thinking floor outlets aren't safe. They are, GFCI protected or not. But for entertainment's sake, on with the show.


Please explain why it is impossible to be killed by electric current passing through your body.

I never said it's impossible to be killed by electric current passing through your body. In the case of standing in a puddle, or peeing into/onto something energized , the electric isn't going to flow into, or through your body. It will always take the path of least resistance. In the case of a floor outlet in a puddle, that will be from the hot and travel the half inch to the cover which is grounded, perhaps even make the jump within the outlet itself if enough fluid is present. It WILL NOT travel from the outlet up into you, the cat, or anything else short of a well grounded metal object placed very close to the recepticle itself.


And I would LOVE to see you pee in my panel LOL.

And I'll be happy to do so. I know that there is no chance of being electricuted by doing so for two reasons. First, the stream isn't a continuous stream as it appears. High speed video can prove that. Second, even if it was a constant stream, I don't provide a sufficient ground. I've hot swapped motor control units of 480 volts, where I had to be in direct contact with energized equipment. As long as I didn't ground myself, there was no problem.

If I'm down your way, I'll even do ya one better. I'll put my finger in an energized light socket. And amazingly, I won't die. Why? Because the electric won't flow anywhere but from the hot, through the little journey of my finger, and to the neutral.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, nobody actually try these stunts. I don't even like to discuss such things because there is always someone who wants to try something. You need to know exactly how electricity works before you dare to play with it.

Anyhow, the point of all this, as I said before this all went wildly hypothetical, is floor outlets are quite safe.

[silversalmonscott]

Hello Electric393,

I am a master electriction and own an electrical contrating company. I have wired many log homes both kit and hand made. The way I prefer to wire either of these is to layout the whole house (electrically of course) and drill holes down into the basement or crawl space starting with the first course and every course after that up to the heigth of the device. That means someone paying very close attention as the courses are going up. I have had the log home builder do this for me in the past and then I just check back from time to time to make sure they dont miss any.

These holes should be alined with each devise. Then you fish from hole to hole from the basement or crawl space. Chip out a hole for each box to go into. It also trims out nicer if you make a flat spot on the log with a belt sander or draw knife. As you know there is no NEC code that says outlets have to be at 18". NEC 210.52 says that they have to be lower than 5'6" to be counted as one of the required outlets. You can not install outlets face up in a kitchen counter NEC 406.4E. I am sure that you know that if you are a licenced electriction.

You can also Install floor outlets. NO inspector in his right mind could fale you on that if the outlets ARE LISTED FOR THE USE. But that gets expensive and does not look so good, and that still does not solve the problem of switchs and lights. If the logs will be chinked you can get away with running the wiring along where the chinking will be but it is tough to get up and down from there. I have used door and window opening to get up and down in a pinch.

The other way is to install the outlets in the baseboard if it is going to be high enough. Still does not solve the switch and light problem. Put as much into the interior walls as you can, as someone already said earlier in the post.

If the logs are up already and there has not been any holes drilled as they were stacking courses you have your work cut out for you.

The key to wiring a log house in my opinion is to stay very open minded and creative and still stay within the NEC. I very much enjoy wiring log homes for this reason. But they do get very labor intensive, up to 4 time longer than the conventional house. If you have any questions once you are working on the project shot me an email at: spinnacle@comcast.net

As fare as the wirless devices for turning on lights I have not used them and I think they could help if they dont go bad like the X10 devices have a reputation of doing. Could become a service call nightmare for the home owner.

[stockhatch]

Rod, you bring up valid points. I didnt take the time to actually think about the whole scenario.

However, it is possible for a deadly current to take a cats life through a floor outlet. Here is how:

A cat gets locked inside, with no litterbox in site. Feeling it has no other options, it sneaks behind the couch to relieve itself. Unbeknownst to the feline, it is standing right over a live outlet, and its front paw is resting on a nail that a careless flooring worker drove right into a bonded cold water pipe. Provided the cat squats in the way most cats do, a solid stream of conductive liquid pours down into the hot side of the outlet. I think the rest is better explained by the illustration provided. I apologize for the crude image that follows.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/stockhatch/cat_scenario.jpg

Now back to the wiring. Silver, when you drill the holes, do you run conduit of any kind? I wonder if log movement(I understand it should be minor) might cause some pinching issues down the road? My brother has wired several cabins, and he told me he used conduit, though I dont know if he was required to by a picky inspector, or if he did it for peace of mind.

[kyle]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, nobody actually try these stunts. I don't even like to discuss such things because there is always someone who wants to try something. You need to know exactly how electricity works before you dare to play with it.

LOL...Rod, I'm glad I didn't know these stunts back in my college days or even a few years after that!

[silversalmonscott]

stockhatch,

I have never run conduit in the logs and dont even want to think of trying to do that. It would offer no benifit or additional protection (that is what breakers are for, to limit current).

There is not a NEC code that an inspector could site that can make you install a conduit electrical system in a residence. I have heard of some AHJ (authoritys having jurisdition) in the NYC area that have adoped there own codes that require conduit to be run in all residents no mater of the number of floors. The National Electric Code is a minimum standard and is revised every 3 years. We are on the 2005 code now. Each jurisdition can adopt a higher standard but it is very uncommon.

I have never seen log movement pinch wires. I am suppose it can happen especially with some of the other method of log home building that have much more setteling than the Skip style log house. If there are 20' walls blowing out maybe the wire is the only thing holding those house together! LOL

[stockhatch]

Ok. Good to know thanks.

[ponyboy]

I have to say, this is the part I'm most nervous about in building my own log home. I hear people here saying that I can do it myself, but I find that rather ShOcKiNg! :shock:

:::imagining turning the porchlight on and flushing a toilet somewhere:::


You mean something like this..... (video) :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K60tPKc8Y18

Jeff

[rreidnauer]

LMAOROTF!!!! I love your drawing Stockhatch. That's classic. May I ask your permission to save a copy for myself?

But still, won't happen, for reasons described in my previous post. I'd give it a one-in-ten-thousand chance of electricution of any form. I'd give it no less than a one-in-million chance of being fatally electricuted.

If there was such a risk, don't you think NEC would prohibit them? (or at least demand GFCI protection)

Come on, buy me a ticket to Wilmington. I want to do a demonstration!! :lol: :D

[silversalmonscott]

Ponyboy,
That commercial cracks me up every time I see it.

rreidnauer
That sounds like it would be a good Myth Busters show. Sends it to them.

[rreidnauer]

rreidnauer
That sounds like it would be a good Myth Busters show. Sends it to them.

Well, actually, there was something covered on Mythbusters that was similar in subject.

It was to see if peeing on a subway's "third rail" could kill you. In short, it was busted. No death, no shock, and for me, no surprise.

[stockhatch]

LMAOROTF!!!! I love your drawing Stockhatch. That's classic. May I ask your permission to save a copy for myself?

But still, won't happen, for reasons described in my previous post. I'd give it a one-in-ten-thousand chance of electricution of any form. I'd give it no less than a one-in-million chance of being fatally electricuted.

If there was such a risk, don't you think NEC would prohibit them? (or at least demand GFCI protection)

Come on, buy me a ticket to Wilmington. I want to do a demonstration!! :lol: :D

All of my diagrams are open source so to speak. Feel free to save and distribute them for the enrichment of your environment and the overall positive impact on mankind.

No way Im buying you a ticket. I need that money to get to Seattle :wink:

[stockhatch]

rreidnauer
That sounds like it would be a good Myth Busters show. Sends it to them.

Well, actually, there was something covered on Mythbusters that was similar in subject.

It was to see if peeing on a subway's "third rail" could kill you. In short, it was busted. No death, no shock, and for me, no surprise.

Actually, they admitted that it was possible, provided you were close enough to the rail to ensure a solid stream. They later peed on an electric fence and got shocked.

[rreidnauer]

Actually, they admitted that it was possible, provided you were close enough to the rail to ensure a solid stream. They later peed on an electric fence and got shocked.

True enough, very close, it can. Of course current flows from . . . . . well . . . . you know, and down your legs to ground. Your pumper keeps tickin' just fine. Don't forget you are talking much higher voltages than household voltages, capable of bridging airgaps. Subways run at 600V and a typical electric fencer runs 2000 to 10000 volts.

Boy, has this thread been totally hijacked or what?

Sorry Electric393, it usually doesn't go this way. :oops:

[greenthumb]

Rod,

Aren't most electric fences pulsed DC? I didn't realize the voltages were that high. Having a pulsed current lets you get away before you get shocked again. :shock: I've heard of a lot of devious uses for fence chargers but I won't go there... :twisted:

[rreidnauer]

Yes, I believe you are correct.

Yea, some of the fencers for the longest runs require voltages that high due to the voltage drop at the far end from line resistance. If I recall correctly, cattle need at least 2000 volts to sufficiently penetrate their hides and get them to respond.

Some solar powered fencers only run about 650 to 2000 volts.

If you think fencers are mean, try neon transformers on for size. I got hit by one (18,000 VAC) working on a gas station sign. :shock: I trusted my boss when he said the power was off. It wasn't. Power went from screwdriver, to hand, through me to my knee on the grounded canopy over the pumps. Hurt like heck, but I'm still here. Never trusted his word after that.

[Broudar63]

:shock:

[mountainman92351]

You state you have the "opportunity" to wire a log cabin in near future!
I will assume you are a fellow electrican!
Get on the job ASAP determine . type of foundation/flooring/roofing
Break out the ships augers, large wood chisels an router. The wireing itself isn't really any different, it's just the labor getting it in wall in a tidy a worksman like fashion! Pay special attention to type of roof used as well ! Make sure to anticipate ceiling fans etc! With todays extra long augers it is possible to cheat the system somewhat but it's a hell of a lot easier to simply follow code make em 18" recepts an switches on interior walls whenever possible! I've done a few over the years if ya need ta E-mail questions mountainman92351@yahoo.com will get them to me!
A little research might even turn up a video on some log site or another.
Good luck!

[ribbonevt]

I saw that one on mythbusters also