Choosing right welder for beginner?

[Nick]

After all the talk last week about modifications to my tele-handler (via some sort of welding procedure) and also all of the tools that I see guys making by welding stuff up, I finally just said to myself - just do it. Learn how to weld. So once again, this dang forum is going to cost me valuable sit on my a#! time and I'll probably have to skip some TV. Dang forum.... That being said, I've spent the last couple days researching and reading about welding procedures and am going to teach myself how to weld. I know it will take a lot of practice before becoming even slightly proficient. Looks like the smartest and most versatile method for me would be a stick welder. I'd be interested to hear all you pros weigh in on what brands/equipment/tools you would recommend. Not planning on turning it into a profession or anything, just would like to be able to do the small repairs and maybe some light fabrication (like build an ATV trailer). I'm not going to put another electrical circuit in my house and don't have 220 running to the garage. I do have a 5k honda generator that I haul out to the land when I need electricity. Thoughts?

[allen84]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I was going to suggest a stick welder, I think that's the best way to learn. Trade that Honda generator in for a welder/generator. If you go electric, the old Lincoln tombstone welders are great but I doubt your generator will run it. I had an ancient miller stick welder that I loved. I used to just yank out the dryer breaker and wire my stick welder to it and pop it back in the panel when I needed to weld something.

Also used to have a welder generator like this (but older) that I found on craigslist for $600 and it worked great. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200434916_200434916

[loghousenut]

Allen is right on if you can find a welder/generator for a good price. Problem is that the right price usually means it doesn't always start right up like a Honda. Shal we work on your mechanicing skills or your welding skills.

Allen is also right on about the Tombstone welder being the cheapest way to learn how to really weld. You can get the kind of penetration with a $100, 40 year old, Lincoln that won't happen with a 110v wirefeed welder. If you was my nephew, you'd be looking for the right deal on a cheap old welder and find a way to get 220v to wherever you are going to weld. Outside is fine and it doesn't have to be pretty. I went out to take a photo of my welding shop but decided it would be a bad influence on you. I have a 50 year old Lincoln that I bought for $50 some 20 years ago. I mounted it to an old hand truck and cobbled up a long cord for it that lays on the ground. I can plug it in to a bootlegged dryer plug on the ugly trailer or out by the pumphouse. When it is at the pumphouse, I have to turn off the well pump due to not enough power to run both at the same time. It gets the job done and has been in the weather for 20 years without a hitch.

If you go this route, pick up a Harbor Freight auto darkening hood when they are on coupon for $39. pick the welding store you like and buy 5 lbs of 7014 rod and another 5 lbs of 6013. Keep the rod dry (mine is behind the woodstove ,and no, She doesn't like it).

Play around on Youtube and get your hands dirty. You will learn more by welding than you will by watching.

That's the cheap way to do it. You'll need a grinder and other things but you'll figure it out.


Maybe a glove or two also.

[Nick]

My buddy keeps yelling at me to get a MIG setup and use flux core but everything I read about beginners disagrees with him.

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[allen84]

Me and LHN only disagree on one thing. Spend $100-$150 on a decent auto darken hood. I've used hoods from harbor freight, none of them darkened fast enough. It's barely noticeable but it can damage your eyes. I have a Hobart hood and it has adjustable shade, sensitivity and delay. Your eyes are worth the extra money spent.

[loghousenut]

30 years ago I had a boss who was gonna spend the weekend welding up a hopper to hold powdered cement. He conscripted a couple of the guys to help but he ran out of welding hoods.

He took a pair of safety goggles and taped a dark lens for a welding hood to the goggles. Made it most of the way through the first day before the blistering became an important factor in his weekend.

It was a couple of days before his wife took him to the ER.

I love my HF hood but I love Allen and his wisdom more.

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[allen84]

Not as important as a good hood, but pants and leather boots are good too unless you just enjoy pain. You'll burn up your tennis shoes, socks, toes and legs without. I was sporting shorts and tall, lace up leather boots one day while using a drill press. It was set up on high speed but I was only drilling a few 1/2 inch holes thru some steel tube. When I drilled that last hole, the tip of the bit was cherry red and went thru both sides of the steel tube like a hot knife thru butter. A marble size ball of molten liquid steel fell right down in my boot. I got my boot off by the time I was numb. A day or two later my 3rd degree burn was infected, foot and ankle swelled like a balloon and couldn't walk on it. Doctor used a scalpel to sluff it off clean again which was equally painful.

And if you want to know what burned eyes feels like, rub some sand in them and hit yourself in the head real hard with something. I used an HF hood for a day of heavy welding one time and went home with a splitting headache (one of the worst and only headaches I've ever had). Upgrade that hood LHN, you'll be glad you did. I like to have an extra around in case someone wants to watch.

And another thing... Often I only use one glove but two is great starting out to learn stick welding. You can use your extra hand to help control the rod. Learning to start and control the stick and lead is the trickiest part. Drag and then push when the arc starts.

[Mountain Lion]

I used an oxyacetylene torch a bunch as a teen. Seemed simple enough. Haven't done any welding since. Also thinking of getting welding capacity. Being that I will be off-grid, would you experts still recommend electric over gas?


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[rreidnauer]

Just stay away from cheap welders like Harbor Fright, Crapsman, and such. They are so temperamental that you'll learn nothing while fighting the drifting results coming from the low duty-cycle junk welders.

[Nick]

Now I'm even more uncertain. Yesterday I went down to Miller Electric (headquartered about 30 minutes from me) and talked with the guys in the store. They're actually recommending MIG for what I want to do and have some real nice units ($$). They sell all of the different types so I don't think they we're trying to steer me in any direction due to money. The unit they we're recommending was the Millermatic 211. They said to just use flux core wire to avoid the need for gas and to get deeper penetration. Looking at ratings, it does come out on the top of most review sites I've seen. Not sure what to do.

[allen84]

Mig Vs. Stick.

If you get a Mig welder, you'll be able to weld anything you need to weld and with just a little practice it should look pretty.

If you get a stick welder, you'll be able to weld anything you need to weld but will take considerably more practice to make it look pretty. But (in my opinion) you will have actually learned a skill, anybody can aim a gun and squeeze a trigger.

If you are going to go with something new, I think a Lincoln will be far cheaper than a miller and just as good.

[loghousenut]

And if you are going new you will be spending roof money on a nice welder. No wrong choices... only options with plusses and minuses.

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[allen84]

Personally, I'm cheap, I'd look for a deal. I'm trying to remember what all was part of the deal I got on my current welder. I bought a bunch of things from a contractor going thru bankruptcy. A generator, husquvarna 455 rancher chainsaw, Lincoln mig welder, all new in box and about 250 2x4's were part of the deal. When everything was said and done, I figured I got my welder and chainsaw free of charge. If I recall correctly, the generator was traded for a Ford bronco that was traded for guns and ammo that was sold for more cash than I had in the deal to begin with. Something like that.

I flat towed that bronco home. Was a Sunday morning and trying to hurry back. I put the automatic transmission and the transfer case in neutral and took off. The first red light I came to, the truck slammed into gear at about 30-40mph. I did a sweet burnout to drag it thru the intersection and work on the problem as small town church was letting out. A nice local who had not been to church is the only person who offered to help but I already had the driveshaft loose by then.

[mudflap]

Mig Vs. Stick.

If you get a Mig welder, you'll be able to weld anything you need to weld and with just a little practice it should look pretty.

If you get a stick welder, you'll be able to weld anything you need to weld but will take considerably more practice to make it look pretty. But (in my opinion) you will have actually learned a skill, anybody can aim a gun and squeeze a trigger.

If you are going to go with something new, I think a Lincoln will be far cheaper than a miller and just as good.

My mechanic friend had a new MIG welder- tried it out last summer while making my log arch- took a ton of wire and lots of time to weld that thing!
My neighbor across from my build (in his 80's), is a retired certified welding instructor. With a pacemaker. He has a stick welder. He can't come within 30 feet of the thing, but sits on his porch and listens while I screw up- err- weld. I'm getting better. Actually, he asked me to weld a new receiver on his log-splitting trailer, and said I did a really good job. I have no idea what brand his welder is- probably "old and good" brand. The rubber has completely worn off of the ground cable, which I'm sure violates multiple codes in all 50 states.

From a guy that has about 4 months welding experience total: I'd go for a stick welder. And wear long sleeve shirts: took me two times to figure out where that sunburn on my arms was coming from....

As far as the right hood: There was a new guy splicing fiber on one of the contractor's crews that we hired. He was working on splicing a 50-fiber cable, and each time he cut the fiber, he would look directly into the end of the fiber (I have no idea why). He was at the ER the next day, with permanent burns on his retina from the invisible laser he was looking for in the optical cable. Don't mess around with your eyes.

Making it look pretty? yeah. about that.....

[allen84]

Maybe mudflap is right... Someone elses welder is the perfect welder for a beginner! Haha, I'm sure that old man is tickled that someone is getting good use out of a tool he loved and can't use anymore. How do I know he loved it? He's a retired welding instructor and the jacket is wore of the ground cable (I'd be willing to bet that the lead cable has seen better days too). I wish I had gotten my certification (had the instruction just never went and took the test), but it would have lapsed by now because I'm not in a career that requires me to weld anymore.

[rockinlog]

you can't go wrong with lincoln or miller great welders and great price,i've been looking at eastwoods mig 175 welder with a free spool gun to weld aluminum for under 500.00.It's got some good reviews on it and runs off 220 but i personally don't know about their welders quality but seems like a great deal.

[Nick]

I really like the millermatic 211, but I have to check the specs on my Honda 5k generator to see if it can run it. Looked into the combo gen/welder serious but too expensive and I also loan out my generator a ton. Lots of huge welders for sale used around me, but haven't ran across a lot of the smaller ones yet.

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[allen84]

From the Miller website about the millermatic 211...
"It features Advanced Auto-Set, which eliminates the guesswork of setting voltage and wire feed speed for your MIG welding application."

My question is, How do it know? ("how do it know?" is the punchline of a good joke. But really, How?)

[CrossingtheRubicon]

I personally started out with a Lincoln MIG welder and then moved on to a Miller MIG. I think it took me a few days to get decent welds with the Lincoln. I would say that MIG is the easiest to pick up so if you want to spend less time learning and more time getting things done a MIG isn't a bad way to go. To each his own of course.

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[allen84]

If I was going to try something new, I might look into some of the 3-in-1 machines that welds and plasma cuts. I don't know if any of the real reputable brands offer a machine that does all that tho.

You're going to find 100 different opinions on each option. Pick one and go with it. With almost any approach you can get the same outcome.

[DanS]

From the Miller website about the millermatic 211...
"It features Advanced Auto-Set, which eliminates the guesswork of setting voltage and wire feed speed for your MIG welding application."

My question is, How do it know? ("how do it know?" is the punchline of a good joke. But really, How?)

The same way that a good welder adjusts things: by sound and by feeling how smooth the wire feeds. ;)

Seriously, you can measure the rate at which amperage increases when you start the weld to get an idea if you've got it set right, and I'm guessing the sound is correlated with a similar metric that the machine can measure itself.

FWIW--I wouldn't hesitate to start with a MiG unit. I've got a Miller 210 (roughly the same size as a 211, but without the auto-set features). LOVE IT. We put a lot of wire through it, and we run wire with gas. Never tried flux core with it, because we use it for sheet metal, in addition to big stuff like bumpers and stuff.

The biggest problem with a MiG unit to learn with is that you can make pretty looking welds, that aren't real strong. You need to do some destructive testing of your welds to know if you are doing it right, especially if you're doing important welds.

I've taught people to weld in about a half day with our MiG setup, and doing good, safe welds. They need to practice a lot more after that, but they at least know what they should be doing, and how to refine their technique to something useable.

I'm a Miller guy, for sure. I've never found the Lincoln machines to have nearly as much elegance and ease, but that's just an opinion. But there are a TON of Lincoln buzz boxes out there, and they are probably the best/cheapest route to get into stick welding.

Dan

[allen84]

The biggest problem with a MiG unit to learn with is that you can make pretty looking welds, that aren't real strong. You need to do some destructive testing of your welds to know if you are doing it right, especially if you're doing important welds. Dan

This is very true. Using flux core is somewhat similar to stick welding because you end up with some slag to knock off the welds but strength is the final test. I guess it all really comes down to how much time and money you want to spend learning. I firmly believe stick/tig welding is the best place to start. Just like a manual transmission in a car, if you don't start that way you probably won't ever learn it. I taught my 15 year old sister to stick weld in about 2 hours to build a science project. She got a C because the teacher didn't believe she built it herself. If not for my mother, I would have had a meeting with that teacher. Sis accepted her passing grade and moved on. I bet she could still stick weld if she needed to.

[allen84]

My first car was an automatic. I have some dear friends that tried to teach me how to drive their standard shifts before and after I got my license. I can drive any standard shift now. I can also burn up the clutch and tires no problem! :)

[Nick]

Finally pulled the trigger this week and invested in a new welder + "welder stuff". Decided on the Millermatic 211 MIG welder after listening to everyone and exhausting google with searches. Got lucky with both my b-day and the March rebate sale from Miller both being in same month. Probably won't be buying any more new toys for a while though. Picked up the machine on Tuesday and spent the rest of the week watching you-tube videos and running into town to pick something else up I didn't know I would need. Started my first project (welding table) on Thursday and finished up today. Might still paint it blue though :) It's a real hack job but it's mine and I made it! Thanks for all the help and encouragement. Never would have had the guts to start something I knew nothing about without hearing all of your stories. Here's a couple pics - remember I'm new to this so be gentle LHN....

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p419/Nick_atnite/IMG_20170311_204949008_zpsbqdpxjfn.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/Nick_atnite/media/IMG_20170311_204949008_zpsbqdpxjfn.jpg.html)
http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p419/Nick_atnite/IMG_20170311_204927431_zpsrzwid1af.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/Nick_atnite/media/IMG_20170311_204927431_zpsrzwid1af.jpg.html)

[CrossingtheRubicon]

Looks like a nice setup and nice table.

[rreidnauer]

Practice, practice, practice. And when you think you got it. Practice more!

[allen84]

Nice table. That's a good size. Mine is larger than 4x8ft (way bigger than I need) and I think I could make it into three usable tables.

[loghousenut]

Only time I was ever that organized was when I was laying on the operating table sound asleep.



Fine looking setup... Glad you can't see mine.

[DanS]

Very nice!

Whatever you do: make sure you paint that table. It'll hold up a lot better with a good coat of paint on it.

I can't help but notice how ubiquitous the 211 is. I think you'll be happy with it--we LOVE our 210.

Dan

[Nick]

Only time I was ever that organized was when I was laying on the operating table sound asleep.



Fine looking setup... Glad you can't see mine.
Really glad I can't see yours either...😀


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[allen84]

Only time I was ever that organized was when I was laying on the operating table sound asleep.



Fine looking setup... Glad you can't see mine.

I've been organized a handful of times in my life. It's not for me. Too predictable.