Calling all alternative energy gurus!!

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I know we have a few threads on this but I'm lazy and didn't want to take the time to search.

Quick question. Would it be dollar efficient to build a system that would produce 1KW per day?

I'd need to include an inverter as I don't want to run dc equipment.

Ball park figure on cost??? Could I use just one of those 'homeowner" size gas powered generators as a backup?

As always thanks for all input!

[BoFuller]

Its never efficient to produce your own solar power. I have solar power because I'm totally off-grid, and I prefer it as I like the independence, but you can never produce it as cheaply as the grid. Some people think its free since they aren't paying the electric company, but by the time you depreciate your panels, your inverter, controller and batteries, you are paying way more. If you want to do it, go for it, but don't do it to think you are going to save money.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I'm not doing this for the house. Just asking the question cuz I have no clue if that's a lot or not a lot.

Yeah I'm convinced it's NOT economical to go off grid for the house

[BoFuller]

A 1KW system could run from 1,500 to 6,000 depending on what you wanted and whether you already have a generator. And whether you bought new or used. And whether you got in on a group buy or paid full retail. And depending on how much you need to spend for mounting - screw to existing roof or install a pole mount.
Panels 250-600
controller 200-600
batteries 600-1200
inverter 1000-2500
It's sort of like asking how much it cost to build a LHBA home. :) It depends!

[lilbluehonda]

But it's a lot cheaper now than it has ever been,panels are cheap right now,but batteries keep going up,with some research you can put together a system for 5 or 6 grand

[BoFuller]

I have a 1KW system on my travel trailer and I'm planning on a 3.5KW system for the log home.

[BoFuller]

But it's a lot cheaper now than it has ever been,panels are cheap right now,but batteries keep going up,with some research you can put together a system for 5 or 6 grand

True, panels going down and batteries up. Not good for planning ahead as you don't want to buy batteries until the day you are going to start using them. Panels will keep, but the price keeps going down, so no point in buying ahead.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

We already have underground utilities on the property so that's what we'll use. I'm going to be setting up an aquaponics system and probably growing <pardon the pun> it to a commercial venture. I'm exploring the possibility of setting that up completely off grid. At least we'd know, no matter what we'd be able to grow our food.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

A 1KW system could run from 1,500 to 6,000 depending on what you wanted and whether you already have a generator. And whether you bought new or used. And whether you got in on a group buy or paid full retail. And depending on how much you need to spend for mounting - screw to existing roof or install a pole mount.
Panels 250-600
controller 200-600
batteries 600-1200
inverter 1000-2500
It's sort of like asking how much it cost to build a LHBA home. :) It depends!

Thanks a million Bo, this at least gives me an idea. I also realize it depends. You hit the nail on the head there. What I didn't know was if 1kw/day was a large system or not so large. From your figures now I know it's not so large.

[rreidnauer]

Actually, I'm a little confused by Dan's specs for the original question. He said 1 kw per day. So does that indicate he wants a 1 kw array, or to actually produce 1 kwh over a day?

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[BoFuller]

I figured he wanted to produce 1Kw per day.

[rreidnauer]

Well, that's my confusion, because that isn't a valid value. One can produce at a rate of 1 kilowatt, or one can produce 1 kilowatt-hour over a given time period. (in this case, a day)

So for example, a panel rated for 200 watts (0.2 kw) exposed to sun for 5 hours during the day, produces 1 kwh/day.

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[LogHomeFeverDan]

Actually, I'm a little confused by Dan's specs for the original question. He said 1 kw per day. So does that indicate he wants a 1 kw array, or to actually produce 1 kwh over a day?

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The aquaponics system, well the one I'd like to have for our personal use, would require 1KW of electricity per day to run efficiently. I'm an extreme novice on electricity. I'm glad you asked for clarification.

Is it more accurate to ask, if I needed to consume 1kw of electricity per day?

[rreidnauer]

Lol, well that's still not accurate! I'm gonna assume you mean 1 kilowatt-hour per day, since I doubt the aquaponics system is drawing 1000 watts. (though possible if lighting is used too)

So let's work the numbers. You need 1000 watt-hours per day, abd a safe figure is 5 hours per day of direct sunlight for the solar panel. So a 200w panel with MPPT charge controller, or 250w panel with regular switching controller will work. (not acounting for cloudy weather) As for batteries, since figured in amp-hours, need some conversion. Such a small system, a 12v arrangement is fine. (and cheaper) So 1000 watt-hours divided by 12v system voltage is 83 amp-hours, and for long battery life, don't draw down more than the top 25% of the battery, so a battery with 332 amp-hours minimum.

So you'd need:
1 - 12 volt, 332 amp-hr deep cycle battery
1 - 250 watt 12 volt solar panel
1 - 12 volt switching charge controller
1 - 100+ watt inverter

It's up to you to gather price info. :)

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[BoFuller]

I say you are safer figuring on getting about 50% of what panels are rated at. So two of the 250 watt solar panels would be better. And how much cloud cover do you get?

[rreidnauer]

I agree with Bo. I was just giving Dan the cheapest possible option.

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[LogHomeFeverDan]

Cloud cover shouldn't be a concern. This would be in the foothills of the Blue Ridge in NC. Lots of sun.

Sounds like it's doable.

Yeah Rod the only things I'd be running for the system is a small water pump, and three aerators. I'd just need to keep the water circulating and most importantly oxygen in the water so the fish don't die. A system this size would supply us with all the veggies and fruits we need. Actually we could grow a surplus. I'm still going to grow the system to a commercial venture but I wanted to explore if we were off grid could I still power a system large enough to supply us our needs.

[StressMan79]

Ok, the lhba is an educational organization.

Watt is power, that is to say how fast you produce/use energy

So

Energy is the power used for a given time, watt x hr, or kw-hr.

For extra credit, what is a calorie, how is it different from a Calorie?

For double secret x cred, what is a btu, any replies with "british" in them lose points. In a related topic, what is meant when a furnace/AC/gas grill is so many btus?

[rreidnauer]

BTU is a measurement of energy to raise one pound of water by one degree.

No idea on calories without looking it up . :confused:

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[StressMan79]

BTU is a measurement of energy to raise one pound of water by one degree.

No idea on calories without looking it up . :confused:

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Good. Gold star for Rod. So if btu measures energy, given enough time a mouse burns 100k btus, why is my furnace rated for 100,000 btus?

Waiting for calorie/Calorie definition.

[rreidnauer]

I'd have to cheat and look up why a furnace is rated as such, but I'm pretty sure it's improperly represented, and should be expressed as BTU-hrs.

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[StressMan79]

I'd have to cheat and look up why a furnace is rated as such, but I'm pretty sure it's improperly represented, and should be expressed as BTU-hrs.

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Taking away your star. Btu per hour

[loghousenut]

What are you guys talking about? I know all about BTU's but what does it have to do with furnaces?

Can I have Rod's star?

[spiralsands]

Calories are those little energy blobs in food that make you FAT. That's why you're not supposed to eat too many of them. I like to store them around my waistline to burn whenever there's no food around and I'm feeling a little peckish.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

The difference between calorie and Calorie is a Calorie is 1k calories.

As to what a calorie is, the amount of energy required to raise a gram of water one degree.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Sooooo from the foregoing, I infer you are saying when a company says I'll need one kw of electricity per day to power my system, they are retentively incorrect??

[panderson03]

For extra credit, what is a calorie, how is it different from a Calorie?

For double secret x cred, what is a btu, any replies with "british" in them lose points. In a related topic, what is meant when a furnace/AC/gas grill is so many btus?

calorie = the energy needed to raise the temp of 1 gram of water by 1 degree C
Calorie = the energy needed to raise the temp of 1 KILOgram of water by 1 degree C
BTU = the HEAT energy needed to raise the temp of 1 POUND of water by 1 degree F

[StressMan79]

calorie = the energy needed to raise the temp of 1 gram of water by 1 degree C
Calorie = the energy needed to raise the temp of 1 KILOgram of water by 1 degree C
BTU = the HEAT energy needed to raise the temp of 1 POUND of water by 1 degree F

Sorry, LHN
Panderson gets the star. When cal is on food, it means Cal, in Europe, they explicitly say kcal.

[StressMan79]

Sooooo from the foregoing, I infer you are saying when a company says I'll need one kw of electricity per day to power my system, they are retentively incorrect??

Yes. I would not buy from a company that can't discern between power and energy.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

So I don't really use a certain number of KW's per month the electric company charges me for?? (-;

[donjuedo]

How many horsepower per month does your car use?

[StressMan79]

You use kw-HOURs. Check your bill.

[loghousenut]

I don't get a power bill.... I'm married.


She doesn't do the dishes.... She's married.





I have no use for a bank account. Being married to the banker has it's perks.

[panderson03]

Sorry, LHN
Panderson gets the star. When cal is on food, it means Cal, in Europe, they explicitly say kcal. :) sorry Mr Nut

[mario kadu]

LHFD,

Unless your meter is defective, you do use the kW-h's your electric bill shows each month. the meter measures the amount of watts you use in units of 1000 watts or 1 kilowatt -hour. So if you have a 100 watt light bulb turned on, every 10 hours you consume 1 kW-h - which of course is why dear old dad always yelled at us for leaving a room without turning off the lights.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Ahhhhh ok so I need to generate one kw HOUR per day. Do I get a passing grade?? Or is the final exam still pending??

[BoFuller]

I knew what you meant from the beginning. 95% of the people don't know that you need that "hour" on there, so I ignored it.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Thanks Bo!! I like that!

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Ok, I went on another "peruse the net for interesting ideas" binge t'nite. Does anyone know much about direct drive generators? How about some of the new steam engines?

[rreidnauer]

Not sure what you mean by direct drive genernator. (are you intentionally trying to confuse me? :p )

Do you mean like for on a windmill? I have a partway finished, three phase, brushless, axial-flux, permanent magnet alternator for a windmill project. Parts of it's build are in the windmill thread.

Don't know anything about "new" steam engines. Short of steam turbines and multi-expansion piston drive engines, (neither of which are new technology) I'm unaware of anything else.

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[LogHomeFeverDan]

Spot on Rod. Windmill generators. I need to look up the windmill thread, hadn't gotten to that yet.

As per steam engines....... http://mikebrownsolutions.com/mbsteam.htm
http://www.greensteamengine.com/

I'm neophyte when it comes to boilers and steam engines. Just wondering if it's a valid/economic form of potential non grid energy.

[rreidnauer]

Alright. Two things. Right off the bat, after checking that website. Unless you have a plentiful and continuous energy source to tap, forget about automotive generators. They are highly inefficient, and the absolute worst thing for use on wind turbines. You would want to use a low rpm, permantent magnet alternator/generator.

Second thing, unless you got a significant heat source to tap, I don't think steam is the way to go either. Even with the wanky wobble crankshaft arrangement on those motors, it isn't any different than 1800's technology, when it comes down to the basic piston function it's based on. Heck, it's not even a multi-expansion engine. (circa 1805) Steam engines were never known to be efficient. (hence why the steam locomotive gave way to diesel-electrics)

Then the challenge of making steam. I positively don't recommend trying to build your own steam boiler. Large volumes of high-temperature water is incredibly dangerous. The threat mainly coming from a boiler containment failure. Imagine a wood fired steam boiler getting out of control or going unobserved into high temperature. As water temperature exceeds the natural atmospheric boiling point in a contained vessel, pressure begins to rise. As long as pressure maintains a balance with temperature of the water, it can continue to rise without turning to steam. So what if the water got hot enough, and along with it, the pressure high enough to cause a rupture somewhere within the enclosed system? Even a small rapid drop in pressure would cause all the water to flash to steam instantly, expanding 1700+ times the water's volume, and boom goes everything!

Though, I always did wonder if there was a way to make a small batch, high-production steam generator that would work loosely on the concept of the pulse-jet engine. Figuring out how to get higher pressure steam to not backflow into your low pressure supply water is the tricky part.

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[project]

If you are interested in a wind turbine check out www.otherpower.com. I built one of their large turbines and as far as I know it's still in service today .

[Mosseyme]

dum du be du dum dum.

[Mosseyme]

Rod/Peter/Other power gurus,
Ok all this talk about power is making me do it.
A friend tells me he can get me a decent small power source by using an old parts 4x4 tractor with high/low range, setting up a traditional waterwheel, and using the wheel to power the tractor generator, and using the gears to adjust to 60 cycle and produce direct power electricity. I'm not at all savvy on this stuff so I don't know if I got any of that right but I'm sure you guys know where he is going with this. Is it feasible?

[loghousenut]

Rod/Peter/Other power gurus,
Ok all this talk about power is making me do it.
A friend tells me he can get me a decent small power source by using an old parts 4x4 tractor with high/low range, setting up a traditional waterwheel, and using the wheel to power the tractor generator, and using the gears to adjust to 60 cycle and produce direct power electricity. I'm not at all savvy on this stuff so I don't know if I got any of that right but I'm sure you guys know where he is going with this. Is it feasible?

Too much power lost turning gears.

[Mosseyme]

But if you could get 60 cycle would it give you a continuous power source that did not require batteries or other significant maintenance cost.
This would be used for freezer, refridg only.

[StressMan79]

I do not know how this would work. I dont know that old tractor had an ac genny. I'd need a schematic for it. One thin, your waterwheel will need to supply peak demand, at all times. I like to store power all day, then use it as required.

[Mosseyme]

Again I don't really know what I am talking about but, I asked some more questions and he seems to believe that if he sets up the water wheel and mounts it to the rear axle of the tractor {the tractor needs to have at least 8-12 speeds for speed choices} so that the waterwheel is now turning the axle, {It must have a locking differential so that both wheels turn}. Then the drive shaft that goes to the clutch will need to have some kind of bearing to stablize it and then attach a generator to that drive shaft. He would set this all up on a concrete slab right by the creek. You don't need the rest of the tractor only the axle, trans, and drive shaft, I think then add your generator. He believes that if you play with the water to get the right flow on the waterwheel and play with the gears to get it turning at 60 cycles a min. you can get 60 cycle ac. The tractor stuff would be running backward. Instead of the engine powering the transmission-driveshaft-axle-wheel, it would be the wheel-axle-driveshaft-transmission-genie, or what ever order they are in.

[StressMan79]

A. This is a bad idea.
A1. Use a pellham genny, generate dc, store and invert. Look up micro hydro.

B. It is a bad idea bc
- say it is tuned to exactly 60hz. It is spring, hi flow. August rolls in, and barely a trickle
-even half a tractor ain't as cheap as you think.
-u need constant draw for this to work. Think grain mill.
-permits will be a nightmare.
C. Inverters are relatively cheap.
Many loads don't need inverters.
Inverters put out 60hz @120vac. Always. Even when outputting rated load.
Lots of other reasons...

[BoFuller]

In theory it sounds good, but you will have to have a pretty strong stream of water falling a considerable distance just to turn those wheels. IMHO.
If it doesn't cost much, go for it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It'll be cool for the grandkids to climb on if it doesn't work.

[rawson]

The suggested micro hydro packaged unit would probably be a way smaller foot print and easier to set up an maintain. Especially if it is only going to power a fridge, got a small year round stream through my property, its on the edge of flow to set up the micro, the limits seem to be about 10 foot to elevation(head) an 5 to 10 gpm, it was easier to purchase a small propane generator as a backup, but a constant hydo power would sure be ideal.

[Mosseyme]

This would only be a secondary system if it did work at all. I know it would take some managing that is why the numerous speeds would be necessary. Also we're looking at ways to manage the water flow via pipe ect and set it for low water and funnel the amount of water you need into a supply tank by the size of pipe feeding the tank then the wheel. We are talking about maybe a 3'-4' water wheel not a big 12' one or anything big. We are planing the main system to be a pelton wheel type of hydro power with back up batteries inverter and all that entails but since he wanted to do something like this we were looking into it as a system that would be separate from everything else so we don't run the batteries down and interfere with the refrig and especially the freezer and would not have batteries to go bad just when you didn't have the money to buy new ones or whatever.
At this point we are just listening to him and trying to check it out. He is also in the process of building a perm. mag. generator.

[loghousenut]

Try this first. Raise one rear wheel of a tractor off the ground. Put the tranny in any gear. Have someone push on the clutch and then see how fast you can get the wheel turning by hand. Before you can generate a watt of power, you have to have enough energy to turn all those gears.

If you have enough fall in the water supply to run a microhydro, it'll do wonders. All that energy that would have been trying to turn those tractor gears would be charging batteries. An inverter is all it'd take to run your home. Modern electronics has solved the problem already.

The tractor is still a great tool, just not much of a power supply to run your lights and computers off of.

[Mosseyme]

Ok, Thanks guys,
I had that question in my mind from the time he started talking about all this, how you get enough to start the waterwheel turning with all that attached to it. Thanks for saving us a lot of time and wasted energy.

[jrdavis]

You might look into a 'tesla wheel' in a stand alone platform.

He created his first water wheel at age 5, I believe.
less friction, more water flow with less gpm needed.
I don't have a site, but tesla wheel is ALWAYS a good google search on a rainy day.

[loghousenut]

I once had a neighbor with a procession of flawed hydro systems on her property. There was a beautiful, old 12' diameter overshot wheel, with chain drive gearing that spun an alternator for the original 12v DC system. Built in the 1960's and never did put out much power, so they'd lived on generators.

Then her Mother died and left her a little money so she'd contracted for the $40,000 option that ran a 4" pipe way up the creek to get enough water and fall to run a 24" pelton wheel producing 240v AC. Life was perfect for her all winter, and she had power to for electric stove, dryer, conventional refrigerator, and left over juice to burn off in her hot tub... until mid spring when there wasn't enough water to turn the big wheel so she was back on generator power and propane for her hot tub.

I was remodeling her house and replacing all her old, small, corroded galvanized pipe with big PVC to gain water pressure from her spring. I walked the hydro line and noticed that there was a pretty good flow, even in late August, but not enough to turn the big pelton wheel. I took 100 yards of 2" PVC, that was slated to run from her house to her spring, and temporarily ran it from a cleanout valve in the 4" hydro line, to a spot near the house. Then I hooked my own 6" pelton microhydro to it and she was putting out more power than we were living on. She spent $2,000 on a Harris hydro, batteries, and an inverter and suddenly she was running all the 110v AC loads in her house that didn't produce heat. Lights, radios, TV/VCR, washer, gas dryer, swamp cooler, and everything but a refrigerator (she'd already gone back to a gas refer). I buried the water line and made it permanent and it is still her son's power system 25 years later.

She ran a dual system for a year or two but vandals kept shooting the 4" water line (below the micro hydro tap), so she finally capped the pipe and sold the big hydro for a pittance. That inverter that cost her $1,200 back then would be $200 now. Batteries are still expensive but a bargain nonetheless. The real boon these days is cheap solar that can be ganged to the microhydro system to account for summer loss that some folks have to contend with.

This all started out as a testament to my limited experience with overshot wheels and gearing loss. If Peter or Rod had been there at the time, they woulda had figures about water flow, pressure, phase of the moon, and static dynamics, etc, etc. I'm more of a "let's hook 'er up and see what it'll do" kinda guy. Sometimes it works out OK.

[jrdavis]

here's a rainy day time sucker site....
Lots of stuff I'd like to incorporate!!!
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Hydro/hydro.htm

[rreidnauer]

Again, using automotive alternator/generator is never a good idea.

And forget trying to get 120v / 60hz direct from a water wheel. As soon as you change the load, it would vary both volts and hertz, since you have no governer in place. It'd be like an engine with a fixed in place throttle.