Built for $20,000 Sold for $350,000 .. I'm a critic and here is why. [Archive]

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 10:08 AM

I like to be dealt with on the level and although people seem to do wonderful things after taking these classes, I do want to express what I believe are disingenuous claims about building and selling costs.

If you browse the wonderful student houses and read the captions.. you will find a number of claims such as "built for $20,000 and sold for $300,000 and Built for $60,000 and sold for $500,000. Now thinking people may notice that these claims seemingly omit crucial information which results in a misleading conclusion.

What is the crucial information that's missing? The Cost of the land. If were are to believe that a student built his cabin for $60,000 and sold it for $500,000.. then the suggestion is that the owner/builder made $440,000 in profit but doggone it, what did he pay for the land the cabin sits on? $50,000? $100,000? $300,000?. We have no idea and that's the point. The two women who built their cabin claimed it cost them about $20,000 and sold for over $300,000 but LHBA does not tell you what part of that $300,000 was the land. When it comes to the cost to build the cabin LHBA is very specific by including only the cost of the cabin but when they tell you how much it sold for, all of a sudden the price is no longer specif but now includes everything.

As far as I'm concerned this is disingenuous. They are omitting crucial information. If you make such outrageous claims and hope your customers don't notice, well I'm insulted which stinks for me because I really want to take the class but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know if I were writing these captions I could never makes such claims while leaving out crucial information. I would feel like I'm misleading people.

Just to be perfectly clear on the subject, I'm not disputing the costs to build or the price these homes may have sold for. I'm prepared to accept the figures as true but if anyone here can look me in the eye and tell me that omitting the land cost in the final equation is anything else but disingenuous, well I'd like to hear your rational.

blane

02-12-2013, 10:36 AM

I don't know the full story on these homes but I can tell you that Ellsworth and Steve are ethical people who genuinely want to see people succeed in a simpler way of life without debt. There may be more to the stories than are shared but I do not believe they are not being disingenuous.

If someone asks me how much did it cost to "build" my house the answer would be about 80,000 dollars. If they asked me what my total investment is the answer would be about 130,000 dollars. Still pretty good return I think if were to sell it for 300,000 if that would be possible in this market. Those homes sold in a different market. I bought a home in 2000 for 75000 dollars and put about 20,000 into updates and sold the house in 2005 for 208,000 dollars. If someone asked how much did I pay for the house the answer would be 75000 dollars and how much did you sell it for the answer would be 208,000 dollars. Thats how I see it and I don't think that is being dishonest, if folks asked for more details I would certainly give them.

rreidnauer

02-12-2013, 10:45 AM

I have to admit, there are a few things that I don't care for the way they're worded, but as you found, it's not hard to sort out the details. However, the information and classes in general is genuine and of value. Without a doubt, there are parts that "won't apply" because of geography or changing of the times, but as a whole, an excellent package of information.

Signed: someone who doesn't make a dime from whether you take the class or not.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 10:55 AM

If someone asked how much did I pay for the house the answer would be 75000 dollars and how much did you sell it for the answer would be 208,000 dollars. Thats how I see it and I don't think that is being dishonest, if folks asked for more details I would certainly give them. Not the same thing. The cost you paid for the house included the land. If you somehow figured out that the house was worth $25,000 and the land was worth $50,000 and said you paid $25,000 for your house and sold it for $208,000, you would be doing the same thing as LHBA. Would you feel good about that? I wouldn't. At the very least LHBA should make clear the distinction between the cost to build and the final sale price which includes the land.

AkChas

02-12-2013, 10:55 AM

Fabin'

Good catch! And understandable that you might be skeptical of the claims. I know which property you refer to, but I don't know the details of their situation. But you raise a valid 'point'. (Perhaps they inherited the property? Maybe the value of the land when acquired was relatively non-significant to the overall selling price? Maybe it was an oversight or a bit of an imbelishment? Perhaps the $20,000 INCLUDED the lot the home is on?). Either way, it seems you DO grasp the intended message of how one can build a fine and lasting home and turn a handsome profit (if they chose to). Even if the land was worth $100,000 (which would be astronomical for someone building on a budget), they'd STILL be turning a huge return on their investment. Right?

My guess is that MOST members that build their own, aren't even considering to sell what they've studied, planned and worked so hard to accomplish (though some do). I bet ya that one of the LHBA "officers" or even other Members may be able to better address your query.
But if you REALLY want to take the class -- You should Take The Class! There's one opening up real soon (Memorial Day weekend).

In the mean-time, I hope that your skepticism gets allayed here soon.

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 10:58 AM

Thanks for you opinion.

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 11:00 AM

Thanks for the reply AKChas. I'm considering all the responses.

edkemper

02-12-2013, 11:15 AM

Just want to add, what you are suspecting would be a huge conspiracy. Being that we, the members, do not make a penny off you unless you buy one of our homes, it's hard to believe we all got together to mislead you. Generally speaking, we are a simple lot. Questions are asked like what it cost to build our home. We answer honestly I believe. There is no financial gain for us to intentionally mislead you.

What you bring up is something to think about. But the bottom line is, if we build cheap and sell it, we are likely going to be making far more profit than someone building either a standard stick home or a kit.

I hope you stick around.

blane

02-12-2013, 11:28 AM

Again, I would say land prices are not what they used to be either. Land runs around 12k per acre where I am, but I can remember when you could get it for less than a thousand per acre, which at that price would be insignificant as AkChas said. Another thing that just came to me though is all the work I have put into this place, I don't think I could put a price tag on.
So it is wise to count the whole cost before jumping in. Would I do it again? In a heart beat! After about two years of rest:)

rckclmbr428

02-12-2013, 11:40 AM

I'm not certain of the situation you mentioned, in a perfect scenario these homes can be built for very cheap, assuming you do not value your time. (which to me is worth more then anything) Most who build end up with far more then 20k into them, and it takes them much longer then 2 weeks. But like I said, there is some perfect scenarios where you could buy a piece of land for 5k that had all the trees you would need to build and mill with, and that cost could be absorbed into the 20k figure. it just not the normal that I have experienced. But I build log homes for a living, mainly with people that would rather have a home sooner rather then later.

Timberwolf

02-12-2013, 11:48 AM

grrr... double-tap

Timberwolf

02-12-2013, 11:49 AM

I look at it this way.

LHBA is a "not for profit" organization teaching the principles of "Log Home Building" (my words) not the principles of buying land, therefore (and I do agree with Rod) I think INCLUDING the cost of land (which to me is a personal subject, that if I was the builder of the home, I wouldn't want disclosed) is actually more misleading, given the widely varying price of land around the world. Removing land from the equation is really the most accurate way to deliver the information,

Also, given the definition disingenuous is : "Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does"

I would defend that the people who teach, support and promote the LHBA are the MOST candid AND sincere individuals you will ever meet.

YMMV.

blane

02-12-2013, 11:53 AM

That was worth saying twice:)
grrr... double-tap

Gomer

02-12-2013, 11:56 AM

Having not built a log home but having built, with help, traditional stick builts, some money was made the way people were nuts in prices they willing to pay.
My brother made "over $235k" on a small cabin on a small lake. In about a single year. The plans were actually nearly identical to the Victorian on that countryplans site. Maybe where they came from even - he bought from someone else who didn't use. He'd be the first to say it was timing and all luck, The place went into foreclosure 2 years ago and still on market for about 40% of what he sold it for. Ouch

That said I sense those days long gone unless one super lucky. Like it was stated above - land mostly way up. Materials up (logs too I know). Labor sadly down ... or not if you hiring I guess. You can still find cheap windows and such but way harder than before as they in use in many cabins today. Not hard to custum frame an opening in a stick built either.... guess the cats out of the bag on a lot of things that made things cheap before and low cost building fairly simple if one waited and looked. Hard.

People are getting wiser in general - when the bank account gets drawn down we look hard at things.
Sometimes things seem to me to be a bit 'out there" on stuff too - but then I know it has been done. And that said I don't think it will be again in the near future. Maybe the comments on "profits" could be under-stated somehow as it reminds me of flippin' a house or whatnot where we all could get rich. Yeah - right.
Food for thought for the boys at the top I guess. I'd think it may be beneficial not to state it as some other forums have used it to somewhat ridicule some things.
I'm still unboard with this deal - just want that made clear too!:D

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 12:05 PM

Just want to add, what you are suspecting would be a huge conspiracy. Being that we, the members, do not make a penny off you unless you buy one of our homes, it's hard to believe we all got together to mislead you. Generally speaking, we are a simple lot. Questions are asked like what it cost to build our home. We answer honestly I believe. There is no financial gain for us to intentionally mislead you.

You are a bit confused. No one is claiming members are misleading anyone. This has nothing to do with a huge conspiracy. This was entirely about the accuracy of the captions under the pictures which are written by the staff not members.

loghousenut

02-12-2013, 12:08 PM

Could be an old boast.

When I took the class from Skip in 1981 I lived in a little dump of a place on a PERFECT 1/2 acre parcel of heaven just outside of Sultan, WA. I was partway through negotiations to buy the place for too much money (about $8,000) when I moved on. The plan was to build a Skip-style LHBA 30x30 on it, and stick around til someone wanted it bad enough to spend some real cash for it. I was figuring about $15,000 to build the structure, so it wouldn't have been too far off from that $20,000 mark total for land and building.

That was all gonna happen just before the housing market in Seattle pushed the Boeing commuters out far enough to spend some of that real money on a nice little log house with a full sized view of My Index and the Washington Cascades. Trust me, it would have been pieced sky high just before the real estate bubble burst.

I too have no idea as to the veracity of those claims but I can sure see how it has worked out for folks over the years. I am forever in the debt of Skip Ellsworth and the rest of the LHBA gang.

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 12:21 PM

I look at it this way.

LHBA is a "not for profit" organization teaching the principles of "Log Home Building" (my words) not the principles of buying land, therefore (and I do agree with Rod) I think INCLUDING the cost of land is actually more misleading, .... Removing land from the equation is really the most accurate way to deliver the information,

But that's not what LHBA did, They only removed the cost of land from the initial building cost but added in the sale price of the home. That's the misleading part. That's the part I'm talking about. They should have included the price of the land initially. They could easily itemize land/building costs/sale price. That's the only way to get an idea of the actual value of the house. The sale price of the house is meaningless unless we know what the land is worth.. And it does not matter where the house is built and how much the land costs.. What's important is what percentage of the sale was due to the land and not the house. If you omit that information, there is no way to arrive at a honest value of the property.

fabincabin

02-12-2013, 12:38 PM

Thanks for the comments Loghouse nut.

I've been thinking about going this route for the last 18 months or so. We lost about 50% of our savings/investments since that time.. It's slowly moving back up and I'm hoping to be ready by 2015. If everything goes as planned, I will have the luxury of taking a year off and working full time on the house. Cross my fingers! I am incredibly impressed by what you people are doing. The biggest problem I foresee is my fear of heights. I may end up making it a one floor cabin.LOL!

John W

02-12-2013, 12:49 PM

I agree with Fabin. Overall in the grand scheme of things, it's not that huge of a deal, but it may be inaccurate and somewhat misleading. In the spirit of how open the site and the forum are, it might be worth it for the administrators to spend a couple hours investigating and put some adjusted numbers up with actual profit. Maybe also what year those things happened. He's got a valid point, and he did it in a very logical way, not nasty at all. It's a credit to this forum that he didn't get his head bit off. Other sites, you do something like that and you'd get chewed up and spit out. And Fabin, that should tell you something about this group too.

loghousenut

02-12-2013, 12:59 PM

John's right on the money on that one. Fabincabin came in with both barrels blazing in a polite manner that made him seem like he'd been one of us for years. If he'd done that on one of my old motorcycle forums, they woulda beat the daylights out of him and then wrapped his carcass in an old communist flag before they blacklisted him. I really like this place. Even the newbies are polite and helpful.

PS... I agree with Fabin also. Of course, I'm kinda on the other side of the LHBA equation so I don't care much personally, but it's nice to see how everyone else views "us".

blane

02-12-2013, 01:02 PM

Those two places sited are not typical by any means wether the price of land is included or not. So many variables factor in that you could not take into consideration and in the end someone who knows the bottom line on those places would have to chime in to answer your concerns. But I would say that even as there are many variables to consider such as can you harvest logs on your own property or do you have to buy them, can you mill your own timbers or buy them, find used appliances or buy new ones, used windows or new ones, do all your own labour or hire it out, pier foundation or ICF will greatly impact the price of your home. The class will teach you about every option you can think of.
Until someone answers you on the land I think it is an assumption to say that did not include the price of the land. It does seem to be a real stretch though that you could build a house for 20000 and sell it for 300000. But at the same time it would seem to be a real stretch that I could build my house at all by myself with my son and wife for the most part. The motive for the LHBA is not to teach you how to get rich quick but a method of building a log home that a novice can actually do himself and in the end be proud of having something to leave that will outlast his grandchildren.
Don't assume they left any details out until they say they did. Ask Ellsworth I am sure he will fill in the gaps if there are any. Maybe he will jump in here when he sees this thread.

rreidnauer

02-12-2013, 01:30 PM

The biggest problem I foresee is my fear of heights. I may end up making it a one floor cabin.LOL!Don't sweat it. When putting the roofing panels on my pole barn 15' off the ground, I was very uncomfortable at first on top of the rafters with nothing to grab ahold of. By the last panel, I was walking the rafters like a pro. (just ask Steve Wolfe) Then came my 77' radio tower. First time up, it a) took forever to get to the top, with multiple pauses to build up my courage, and b) made me hang on for dear life at the slightest breeze. Now after a little more than a half dozen times, it feels like child's play and I have no problems working hands free even with the wind blowing. Funny what the brain will adapt to.

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Jarek

02-12-2013, 04:31 PM

Cabinfabin,

Welcom to the forum.
I do understand your concers and if you look at these numbers from investment point, yes you would want to know full entry price and exit price. On these blogs you don't see entry price only cost of improvments and final exit price. However here is another look. Since most LHBA members are DIY builders I think we mostly care about cost of the improvements. You can easily figure out cost of the land where you want to build. Its harder to estimate construction cost and finally value of the home is only what someone else is willing to pay for it. For me these posts are only informational of what could be build for how much. If you are concerned that those are marketing gimmicks I can tell you these are not. If you are truly interested in building log home or cabin I suggests you sign up for class. If you are looking for miracles how to have a house for cheap this is not. The class besides teaching log construction is introducing lifestyle. If you have tons of time and can build by yourself, look for deals and second hand items you will have significant savings on your construction. But if you go with the main stream and hire out construction of your log home it will cost you about same as typical stick construction. Personally I have not build yet but I belive that if you stick to LHBA philosophy building any house log, icf, sip or stick by keeping simple, cost efficient and by being more aware builder you can have instant equity advantage over average buyer/builder.
In the end decision is always yours.

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fishlkmich

02-12-2013, 05:15 PM

The total cost depends upon many factors and what you can get for the final product will, also. I paid 20K for 11.5 acres. It isn't in a perfect location. Within 25 miles, I could pay over a million for an acre. It would overlook Lake Michigan. My land has trees that could be cut and used for free. Most land will not and you will have to buy logs. So, out of my 20K I get at least four free walls. If you have to have fancy stuff inside and all matching windows, it costs a lot more than picking up what you can find for less. The bigger it is, the more it will cost to build. How much work you have to hire out adds up. When you are finished, all of these things, along with the quality of your work, will determine what the selling price will be. Having looked at the pictures of quality log homes, you would have to consider that they would equal, or exceed, market price per square foot of a stick built home. If you buy land that has trees that can be milled, you can hire a portable sawyer and have all of your lumber milled onsite. PEX is cheap and you don't have to hire a plumber to run your expensive copper. Do you have enough friends to help install miles of chinking for free, or a lot of spare time? In the end, I'd get the same amount for the structure that I build, no matter which lot I put it on. The value of the cabin is the quality that you put into it. You can build a quality cabin inexpensively, but it takes a lot more time and work.

Ellsworth

02-12-2013, 10:43 PM

So let me get this straight, you come on to the LHBA forum and use accusatory words like "disingenuous" and "misleading" directed toward the Association, which is just a fancy way of accusing us of being unethical liars. IMHO that is trying very hard to be intentionally abrasive and inflammatory.

You then go on and make some snide comment about Sherri and Debbi, two members who honestly shared their constructions cost. You said "The two women who built their cabin claimed it cost them about $20,000.” That is insinuating that THEY are liars. They didn’t “claim it,” they DID it. Personally I find that more offensive than anything you could say about the Association, about Steve or me. I will stand up for Sherri and Debbie, and all members in good standing, till the cows some home. No one is going to come on to this forum and throw an unfounded character attack like that at a member.

So I’m going to make this easy for you, you’re not going to take the class. Now this response might seem defensive, but frankly imho it’s warranted because you were being intentionally offensive. You didn’t actually want information; you just wanted to cause some drama by throwing out accusations.

Some friendly advice on how to deal with this sort of issue/question: Try emailing staff directly using the contact us feature on the website. We’re pretty good about filling in details or explaining issues via email. Also, most topics have been covered on the forum. Just use the search feature to find existing threads and the odds are good they will answer your question. Hint, there are a lot of threads about total construction costs where members give some firm numbers and opinions. And lastly, you could start a thread on the topic without being antagonistic, or snarky.

Now I’d be happy to shed some light on the actual topics you bring up: property costs and their inclusion or exclusion from the LHBA website. We have always tried to include as much info as possible about homes we feature in the student gallery. That will include the property cost, if we happen to know it. For instance, the student you reference who "spent $60,000 and sold his home for $500,000.” I think you mean Larry (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/student-log-home/larrys-log-home) and he actually spent $60K on land, and $40K on construction costs. So his total cost was $100K, and he sold his home for around $490K. That’s $430K worth of profit versus $390K worth of profit, depending on if land cost is included or excluded. And to be real fair you could knock 20% off since he sold at the height of the bubble, so $312K profit including cost of land. Do we need to adjust for inflation too? ;)

If you had bothered to send us an email, then we would have likely explained that our old website had more details (http://loghomeinfo.com/log_home_pictures_14.htm). That site is archived and totally available, so if we were trying to hide property costs then we sure do a crappy job.

Notice that the archived LHBA site is very web 1.0. It is ‘flat’ and you only ‘scroll down’ the massive wall of content. We’re up to web 3.0 and the standards for image galleries have changed drastically. Websites now use pop up image viewers, side scrolling lightboxes, et cetera. You just can’t run a Geocities style site in 2013 ;) Unfortunately these slick new UIs have limitations on how much text is displayed and we literally can’t fit all the old text content into the new galleries.

Also our current website www.loghomebuilders.org quickly became a transitional website after the its big update. We’ve been working on a new site with a new URL and that has been our focus. Therefore the current site is bare bones, to avoid duplicating effort of custom coding and manual transfer of content (like image descriptions). We still won’t be able to fit all the old text into the newest galleries, but we will be able to include more of it. Since we know the galleries won’t be ‘perfect,’ we anticipate having a new format for presenting more of the old gallery content.

We sincerely appreciate our members responses and support on this thread. Notice that sincerely is bolded, so there's no confusion about that being disingenuous ;) And heck, compared to some of the late night, alcohol induced, threatening and obscenity laden phone calls I get from kit builders this thread wasn't so bad!

marvlus

02-13-2013, 04:56 AM

And heck, compared to some of the late night, alcohol induced, threatening and obscenity laden phone calls I get from kit builders this thread wasn't so bad!

Whoa, some kit builders really take this butt 'n pass concept over the line, huh?

Fabincabin,
I see that you posted this response to a thread back in March of 2012 (http://community.loghomebuilders.org/showthread.php?9807-Why-are-all-the-student-homes-built-5-years-ago-and-a-few-other-questions&p=71432#post71432). (Post # 31)

"rocklock,
Beautiful music and beautiful pictures. I'm only at #44 and I'm ready to take the class! Thanks for the inspiration."

What happened!

rreidnauer

02-13-2013, 05:13 AM

blane

02-13-2013, 05:19 AM

Love the way "family" is stood up for here!

marvlus

02-13-2013, 05:39 AM

You won't be getting an answer to that question. He's marked as 'banned' in his profile. Thought he might have gone too far over the line and hoped to reel him back a bit, but alas, it was a cause too far gone.

Takes a lot to get banned here, (heck LHN probably should have been tossed out a few times over :p ) but now we know one way that will get you shown to the door in short order.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

Yeah, he was being pretty antagonostic (and I was ready to give him some words, but I held back). Poor guy, doesn't seem to realize that this forum is filled with honest people trying to help others.

Gomer

02-13-2013, 07:07 AM

Yeah, he was being pretty antagonostic .

dunno - think he was just somewhat skeptical of some things and looking for possibly re-addressing way things said.
Sometimes being too loose with the questions seems to be defiant challenge and it's not always so...or as one takes it
Spent years working with people in professional capacity and surprising there are many who fit the "mold" seen here but they are mostly real good folk as whole.
Difference is it's not a true open public forum and guess Ellsworth well within his rights to address as he sees fit. And OP should be respectful of that or aware of it and toe the line

Believe he's been posting on forums elsewhere but never anything negative except the same type of comments that challenge similar statements of "profits".
Maybe he's been burned in real estate and mighty mighty skeptical in general ?? ... oh well.
A new day and new challenges for us all as it is.

LogHomeFeverDan

02-13-2013, 07:12 AM

I think so many come here with the "instant gratification" mindset. They've not used real common sense, cost control in so long they've forgotten the neural pathway is still present. If you told the vast majority of people today you can obtain land at very low prices they'd call you a liar, or at least insinuate you were lying. I can appreciate the point, just not the technique in making same.

John W

02-13-2013, 08:27 AM

I think Fabin had a valid point, but he doesn't have the tact that (ahem..cough) I have. If he had just come out on the forum and asked, 'Do the picture captions that say built for 60K and sold for 500K include the price of the land? Cause that could make a big difference', he would have been better off. My initial reaction was that it wasn't that bad and didn't need to be banned, but here's the deal. I haven't been to the class, I'm not a member, let alone being one of the guys that runs the whole LHBA. So it wasn't directed at me. What's the worst things you can do to me? Disrespect me and/or call me a liar. Since 'disingenuous' and 'misleading' weren't directed at me, I didn't feel the sting. But point that comment at me and just watch the fur fly.

I also commend Ellsworth for his support of the members (family).

Mosseyme

02-13-2013, 09:25 AM

Fabin is banned
YOUR LOSS

thoner7

02-13-2013, 11:07 AM

I noticed this too when I found the site. I didnt care though because I wasnt planning on becoming a builder or making money flipping log homes. Maybe one day I could make a buisness out of it (that would be cool!) but thats not my goal at all.

If anything, I was thinking of making some 'vacation cabins' as weekend rentals in the woods. They are big in my area, with NYC folk that want to get out of the city for a long weekend.

rreidnauer

02-13-2013, 12:02 PM

I love the idea of small vacation cabins. Really easy and affordable to build. Spaced so they aren't too close to one another (like, not within sight of each other) would feel like a real wilderness adventure to the average city slicker! Cabins are usually a sure bet provided you are in an area that draws tourists in.

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Timber

02-13-2013, 12:05 PM

But that's not what LHBA did, They only removed the cost of land from the initial building cost but added in the sale price of the home. That's the misleading part. That's the part I'm talking about. They should have included the price of the land initially. They could easily itemize land/building costs/sale price. That's the only way to get an idea of the actual value of the house. The sale price of the house is meaningless unless we know what the land is worth.. And it does not matter where the house is built and how much the land costs.. What's important is what percentage of the sale was due to the land and not the house. If you omit that information, there is no way to arrive at a honest value of the property.

i surmise this guy is an auditor for the IRS
Shhh....mums the word

JJ Jr

02-13-2013, 01:57 PM

rawson

02-13-2013, 02:24 PM

Crap I still haven't been shown the secret handshake yet. Attended the class cause I wanted to learn an alternative to construction methods that I had not yet experienced. I still walk my own path an do what I got to do within my means those are my decisions. I felt I got my moneys worth attending the class and have benefited with the knowledge gained. Plus info shared on the members side has saved me a few bucks.

Seems there will always be folks that have to complicate things to the extreme, gads reminds me to focus on 2012 taxes sob sob.

rreidnauer

02-13-2013, 02:49 PM

Well lads - if what you wanted to do was establish this place as a secret society kind of entity - you are doing it!
What he said and you say is now making appearances on other places. Heck even I had to check back in to see what this is all about!
From outside it all seems over the top if you ask me. And most others.
Good luck to everyone on the builds they are doing. Halfway done with winter and things will get better soon outside. I hope!I can't help but be amazed that after 44 years of this method being taught, hundreds of homes built, and thousands of unpaid members backing the LHBA methods, that there is still a question of it's authentisity.

I know there will always be the rabble-rousers and doubters, but geez, what does it take to convince? Of course, there will always be the contractors and kit home manufactures who have a stake in trying to "black-eye" LHBA whenever possible.

So to that, each their own. I have nothing to gain by convincing others, LHBA fills the classes to capacity so all is wonderful in the world. We're here with a helping hand if you want it, but we have no purpose for an arm wrestle.

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LogHomeFeverDan

02-13-2013, 04:23 PM

Tom Featherstone

02-13-2013, 04:23 PM

JJ Jr,

I don't participate in other log home forums as I find no reason to. These people here, tell it like it is. And have given many people through the years the ability to build their own log home, many of whom could not afford to do it any other way.

I also agree this was a bit over the top and I also support Ellsworth 100%. We have had many others from "other" forums that poke their heads in here occasionally and try to get a rhubarb going that know body here wants or needs to get into.

"Fabin" had a chip on his shoulder, imho, when he started this thread. I can totally understand where he was coming from in his question and from all the money scammers in this world today. Ellsworth defense was for the Members of this organization and how much he respects us ALL. I don't think any member here is concerned what they're saying next door.

Not to judge anyone. "Fabin" may have had a bad day, pushed over the edge with so much bs in this world today. We try to be more respectful here on the "public side". Nobody was evading a question. The marketing on the web site is to get people to think and ask questions. I myself up into the first half hour of class wasn't so sure this was for real either.... it was a wasted 1/2 hour.

"Fabin" question has been asked before and like most users today look at current info instead of doing enough research before asking questions, I too do this at times as it seems easier than guessing the right "search" word to find what I'm looking for. There's an incredible amount of information on this "public side", a very small "tip of the iceberg". Tons more in the members section and the support of the active members here pretty much 24/7. Why would we do this if it's not for money? I answered that in my first paragraph.

Jump off the fence... take the class

Tom

spin05

02-13-2013, 04:37 PM

Thats the kind of dude i remember Skip not letting into the classes in the 80's and 90's. You know building inspector...dog catchers ......anybody who worked for the goverment. I can recall if you answered a question the wrong way. You wern't getting into the class. Im pretty sure this guy wouldnt have made it past skip either...

spiralsands

02-13-2013, 05:12 PM

My 2 cents: his first post had that trollish feeling to me. You were all so polite to him. Credit goes to you all who tried to lower the first-post hackles of him. Credit goes to Ellsworth for "telling it like it is" too.

edkemper

02-13-2013, 05:42 PM

It needs to be said that I've never heard one person promise me I could do this and make a killing financially. That has never really been the focus of this organization or by most of the members. That doesn't mean some will still be able to make "a killing" when they sell their home. But some will. Some will unfortunately loose everything along the way. I remember one log home that burnt to the ground just after it was completed. Hard to recover from that. But they did if I remember correctly.

I am sure for some, it is hard to imagine being able to build a real log home with their own virgin hands. It's also hard to believe by most of us that what we end up building are really incredible and the labor we put into building them is actually worth more than we thought. You don't sell a cheaply made shack for a few hundred thousand dollars. However, many of our hand built homes are worth a lot more than any shack or cabin.

I never met Skip. My loss no doubt. But I did meet two lunatics that taught a class I took and taught me a lot about who Skip was. Steve and E for me are my Skips. They are the future of this organization and I know Skip is as proud of them as we are.

Thanks guys.

Mosseyme

02-13-2013, 06:04 PM

As a member that has accidentally pushed the edge of the forum rules a couple of times, I must say I was gently and respectfully redirected. If Ellsworth came out acting like a tiger protecting her cubs, we can appreciate that he is well aware of the hard work and sacrifice that many have put into making our dreams come true, and will not allow anyone to suggest that we puff up our accomplishments. I well remember how respectfully they both dealt with the many premature questions asked in class by those of us to excited to wait for it all to be explained in proper sequence. To those out there that are having a big?? about this whole thing, you will not find anyone that will be more honest with you about what they teach, why and how. They will not tell you it is easy. They will not push big ideas. They will tell you to keep it as small as you can afford, keep it simple, this is what we teach, these are other ways to do it, we suggest this because, ect,ect,ect.
We are in our 60s, we are doing this with only a little outside help so far. It is a lot of hard work but when we are finished we will not have a mortgage on this place and will have a home we will be proud to say we built with our own hands.
Thanks Ellsworth and Steve,

ChainsawGrandpa

02-13-2013, 07:43 PM

Good for you, Ellsworth!

After I took the class (I read between the lines for the entire class) I went out and
bought a piece of land for $747. Include the cost of the structure estimated at
$24,000. The FMV would have been about $77,000. I applied the lessons from
class to build a framed structure. About 40% of FMV. The truth is the costs listed
are conservative. Some of the real costs might really push the envelope.

The family cabin at the lake was $1,000. Half of that for land, and half of that
for the cabin... of course that was about 1948. J.R. Hewing (Jay Randall) said he
built a log home for $500, but he never finished it because someone else wanted
it worse than him. Don't mention the size or cost of Skips ranch. No one would
ever believe that!

G'pa

PeeCee

02-13-2013, 08:46 PM

G'pa, your sig cracked me up!

Ellsworth, thanks for coming out and saying what needed to be said.

I had a bit of a WTF moment when I read the OP, but I hang out on other forums and have experienced a few too many times where I have regretted a hasty reply, so I kept my mouth shut.

If I may add my two cents here--when all we know about a property is what it looks like and a sales price, we should assume that there are a huge number variables and unknowables with respect land content, local population and zoning changes as well as the the general economic climate at the time of purchase and sale that we still don't know. So, unless one has inside information, calling someone out as a liar is completely uncalled for. Sure some stories may sound like hype, but we have to accept that we probably don't know the whole story.

It probably makes more sense to analyze a building project from the perspective of how much it cost to build something yourself compared to what it would cost to have it built for you.

For the sake of folks considering a build of their own, I'm sure almost everyone who has built or is in the process of building a LHBA style home is saving a ridiculous amount of money.

You don't even have to be in US to experience that kind of savings. I'm building a small cabin in Japan (so land prices are irrelevant), but I've spent about 50K on the building so far--20K of that is for things like a crane and tools that I can recoup. I reckon it will cost me another 10K to get connected to water, electric and sewage. So, the actual cost in materials will be about 40K for something that I was given a quote of a little under 200K to build--and I've actually made a lot of improvements over the specs of the original quote.

So, although my figures aren't quite as dramatic as the ones posted on the page, I've done very well. And I didn't have to go dumpster diving to experience the savings. Granted, I've spent almost all of my weekends and vacations for the last year and a half working on it, so I probably could have been living in the cabin for at least a year by now. But, I would've missed out on a lot of learning and fun.

I like it so much that I've already ordered logs for a second build.

As a side note--I attended class with my initially very skeptical younger brother--he has a lot of building experience (including logs [which we did not reveal when we attended the class:eek:]). He became increasingly enthusiastic during the class, but backslid into the kit scene shortly after we returned back to Japan.

Perhaps he was jet-lagged and not focused on what was being said in class :confused:

As a result, we "fell out of fellowship," I proceeded to build my LBHA cabin almost alone.

After visiting my build several times, he has finally decided that he wants to build one himself. As far as I am concerned, if my brother is finally convinced, that's a very firm endorsement.

Sorry for the rambling. Just had to get that off my chest.

Timber

02-13-2013, 08:54 PM

you guys looking into building your own log home this is a great place.
yes they preach cheap and yes it still can be done cheap/inexpensive is really the correct word.

most here are wanting a log home which in general is more valuable than a stick frame.
no one twisted my arm.. i was skeptical at first... i just kept coming back...work slowed down so i took the class

the secret handshake, jaws or fang, :confused: oreos/are all just part of the other side
worth the price of admission
plus this secret site for the members :cool:

Timber

02-13-2013, 09:10 PM

Well lads - if what you wanted to do was establish this place as a secret society kind of entity - you are doing it!
What he said and you say is now making appearances on other places. Heck even I had to check back in to see what this is all about!
From outside it all seems over the top if you ask me. And most others.
Good luck to everyone on the builds they are doing. Halfway done with winter and things will get better soon outside. I hope!

ever hear of "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
Luke 6:26 they have been talking for along time/many mocking...meanwhile this site and members keep growing
i dont think we waste too much time talking about the "other guys" if you want a kit you will pay and you wont get what you pay for
no skin off anyone nose here though

PeeCee

02-13-2013, 10:51 PM

As far as I know there is still a satisfaction guarantee or your money back on the class. I have yet to read anything on any forum by someone who took the class and thought it was a waste of money.

Money back guarantee, no risk membership for anyone into a organization doesn't really seem to qualify as a very "secret" society.

project

02-14-2013, 03:19 AM

blane

02-14-2013, 04:05 AM

I like this, where is the button?
ever hear of "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
Luke 6:26 they have been talking for along time/many mocking...meanwhile this site and members keep growing
i dont think we waste too much time talking about the "other guys" if you want a kit you will pay and you wont get what you pay for
no skin off anyone nose here though

AkChas

02-14-2013, 06:51 AM

Honestly , I don't care if it cost me $100,000 and I couldn't sell it for $50,000 because i dont want to sell it. I'm building my house just like everyone else here, I just have to keep waiting for the class schedule to be on the days that I'm off so I can get started. I've been waiting for 2 years so far. Talking about bad timing.

Really? You aren't off over Memorial Day weekend? Class is Sat/Sun and you can use Monday to travel back home.
Sometimes -- you gotta MAKE time instead of waiting for when you can Take the time. Sorry, but I can relate, as I was in a situation where planning any more than 3 days ahead was not a luxury I had (extensive / frequent, last-minute "emergency" travel). But after a couple of years of waiting for the stars to align I said screw-it, I'm taking the class and making the time to do so! Too often I'd seen folks in the 'Sunset of their Life', saying " oh, if only I'd done this" or, "I had always wanted to do that". And alas......it was Too Late.

Hope you find the time to pursue your dream. It's been almost 4 years since I attended the LHBA class and I still maintian -- it's The BEST thing I'd done for myself in a very long time (maybe ever -- "time" will tell : )

Chas

project

02-14-2013, 08:41 AM

Really? You aren't off over Memorial Day weekend? Class is Sat/Sun and you can use Monday to travel back home.
Sometimes -- you gotta MAKE time instead of waiting for when you can Take the time. Sorry, but I can relate, as I was in a situation where planning any more than 3 days ahead was not a luxury I had (extensive / frequent, last-minute "emergency" travel). But after a couple of years of waiting for the stars to align I said screw-it, I'm taking the class and making the time to do so! Too often I'd seen folks in the 'Sunset of their Life', saying " oh, if only I'd done this" or, "I had always wanted to do that". And alas......it was Too Late.

Hope you find the time to pursue your dream. It's been almost 4 years since I attended the LHBA class and I still maintian -- it's The BEST thing I'd done for myself in a very long time (maybe ever -- "time" will tell : )

Chas

I work 14 days on and 7 days off and can't take off during the 14 days unless an extreme emergency. Only holiday is Christmas and even them if duty calls I have to go. Last year I marked my whole schedule for the year on the calendar and watched the class dates with no luck.. The first date that comes up and I'm off I will be the first to sign up for the class.

AkChas

02-14-2013, 08:52 AM

Yep, I've been in one of those rotational schedules too (mostly "2weeks -on / 2weeks -off" -- oilfields of the Alaskan "North Slope", but also 2 MONTHS on 1 off on some other ultra-remote site stuff). Shame you can't "trade" with someone or have someone cover you for the coupla days. Well, good luck in nailing down a good weekend to take the class, Project.

Don

02-14-2013, 09:56 AM

My name Don Gibbons,

I post on a number of DIY/House building websites un Don-Gibbons or DonGibbons1. I signed up to comment on this thread which I've been following for a couple of days now.

Regardless of what you think about the original comment, I just wanted to point out to your "family" that most of you supported Faben in the initial stages of this thread and thought he made a fair point but since the administrator made his comments, some of those same people are now attacking him. What type of family does that? I also notice that some of you are bringing up issues that have nothing to do with what he said. He never made any insinuating comments about the members or the value of their labor or property.

I was very surprised to see that he had been banned. You would think the owner of a business would have thicker skin. It's one thing to be a family, it's another to do a 180 just because the administrator took it personally. I've been in business for 30 years. You can't take it personally.

BTW, The main reason I felt compelled to comment is that I noticed that the house built by the two women which originally said $20,000 now reads $40,000. So Faben's point seems to have been legitimized.

Good luck to all the builders out there.

Timberwolf

02-14-2013, 10:49 AM

Time to lock the thread Ellsworth.

AkChas

02-14-2013, 10:54 AM

Time to lock the thread Ellsworth.

I second that!

Matt F.

02-14-2013, 11:20 AM

BTW, The main reason I felt compelled to comment is that I noticed that the house built by the two women which originally said $20,000 now reads $40,000. So Faben's point seems to have been legitimized.

Good luck to all the builders out there.

Hi Don!

I'm still seeing it written as $20,000. If you are referencing the article here (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/build-your-log-home-less-then-cost-kitchen-remodel), there is mention of a home built for $40,000. But two paragraphs down, you will still find Sherie and Debbie's house at $20,000.

I'm not surprised Fabincabin got banned. If you look at his post history, pretty much all of his activity was questioning the LHBA and calling members liars. He was hyper-focused on cost, and refused to believe anything that members said about cost (and inability to give him an accurate number for what it would cost him to build).

Just my 2 cents.

-Matt

panderson03

02-14-2013, 12:03 PM

I third; time to lock the thread!

Don

02-14-2013, 12:52 PM

Hi Don!

I'm still seeing it written as $20,000. If you are referencing the article here (http://www.loghomebuilders.org/build-your-log-home-less-then-cost-kitchen-remodel), there is mention of a home built for $40,000. But two paragraphs down, you will still find Sherie and Debbie's house at $20,000.Hi Matt,

It says $40,000 for Sherrie and Debbie's home on the LHBA facebook page.

[QUOTE]
I'm not surprised Fabincabin got banned. If you look at his post history, pretty much all of his activity was questioning the LHBA and calling members liars. He was hyper-focused on cost, and refused to believe anything that members said about cost (and inability to give him an accurate number for what it would cost him to build).
Matt, I clicked on the link you are talking about. I think you made the same mistake that others did half way through the thread. He was using a cost analysis equation to help another person who had questions. He himself was not asking questions or concerned about cost.

My issue with this thread and in general is with people who criticize others for having opinions perspectives or questions that are not popular. For the life of me I still can't figure out what this guy did wrong. Seemed like an honest attempt to address something that bothered him. Whether he was/is ultimately right or wrong is besides the point. I understand that this is a private board and the owner can ban whoever he likes for whatever reason he likes.. but generally speaking the right to free speech exists to protect unpopular speech.. That's the only type of speech that needs protecting.
I don't see where he was disrespectful.

I signed up to comment on this thread because it bothered me. I've said all I wanted to say on the issue. I'm going to go look at some of the images here. There are some very impressive houses being built.

rckclmbr428

02-14-2013, 01:35 PM

Did someone say impressive cabins?
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/rckclmbr428/North%20Carolina%20Home/IMG_3341.jpg

AkChas

02-14-2013, 02:45 PM

W:cool:W!!!
Most are building "Elephant Cages". You have a Godzilla Pen, Ronnie!

Ellsworth

02-14-2013, 03:08 PM

Hi Matt,

It says $40,000 for Sherrie and Debbie's home on the LHBA facebook page.

That's a typo, and we'll fix it. Non-nefarious human error. www.loghomeinfo.com has the correct amount.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

localfiend

02-14-2013, 03:28 PM

Cool, the old site has a lot more interesting info, especially in relation to the student built homes.

WNYcabinplannin

02-14-2013, 03:40 PM

My quick $.02
Class was best bang for buck in my life.
I'm almost done with my log home. Ill have spent 20k land, 5k (net after getting lumber) logs, 25k walkout basement with radiant heat. 75k rest of cabin NICELY. Ill be under 125, and I could sell for three times that.
My build would've been 20-40k more without other members help. (Labor, tool sharing, pooling resources, many etc).
It's allowed me, more importantly, to achieve a LIFELONG DREAM- of building a log home. Not a hunt camp, kit crap disaster.
Ditto that I have nothing to gain from supporting LHBA model.
( but hey E- you can mail me an XL shirt just cuz you love me!) ;)
Try to get this in a kit!
Luv F
1260

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LogHomeFeverDan

02-14-2013, 05:59 PM

WNYCabinplannin, is it ok if the shirt reads...... "LHBA, where necrobumping is ok"? <ducking>

spiralsands

02-15-2013, 11:32 AM

My issue with this thread and in general is with people who criticize others for having opinions perspectives or questions that are not popular. For the life of me I still can't figure out what this guy did wrong. Seemed like an honest attempt to address something that bothered him. Whether he was/is ultimately right or wrong is besides the point. I understand that this is a private board and the owner can ban whoever he likes for whatever reason he likes.. but generally speaking the right to free speech exists to protect unpopular speech.. That's the only type of speech that needs protecting.
I don't see where he was disrespectful. I signed up to comment on this thread because it bothered me.

The free speech article of the Constitution is frequently misused. Intent of speech is important in ALL communications. If you had a holiday party and your drunken brother showed up and began to call your wife and kids liars, is his right to say that protected? No, my bet is you would throw him out right on his keister. (Don't know if keister is spelled right. My stepfather was German and used that word all the time!)

There are a lot of trolls on the internet and every once in a while one finds his way here. I too am on other construction forums and I've seen the so-called "experts" get miffed when the "apprentices" do not respect their seniority and know-it-allness. I even found them to be rather sexist and dismissive of their members who are women. I find this forum and this association to be the warmest and friendliest and most accepting. It really cannot compare to the others in any way.

John W

02-15-2013, 11:54 AM

rocklock

02-15-2013, 01:01 PM

There is no free speech constitutional right in a private forum.
I still contend he had a valid point, and could have gotten away with it if he had asked the question in a more tactful way. But then, I have my own definition of tact.
I agree. But I object to the title... Just from the very start he was objectionable, IMHO.
I would have deleted the whole thing and banned him, but then I am just the crotchety old guy... with experience in talking with disagreeable kit builders. Thankfully our moderators are different!

LogHomeFeverDan

02-15-2013, 02:43 PM

I like to be dealt with on the level and although people seem to do wonderful things after taking these classes, I do want to express what I believe are disingenuous claims about building and selling costs.

Don, hallucinate with me for a moment. Reread the quote above of fabincabin's opening line. Ok, you in the mindset.

Now, for a moment let's forget the title of the thread. Let's forget for a moment I'm going to give you credit for being online more than, oh say, a couple of minutes. I have enormous faith in the goodness of fellow humans. I'm giving you credit when you say you're on other building forums. Given all the foregoing, are you really saying you can read this opening statement and not say this poster is cruising for an argument/bashing this site? I won't even break down the sentence in it's parts.

Let's hallucinate a bit more and discuss the perspective of his post. How many "traditional homes" have you purchased? Has the purchase price ever been broken down by, physical structure and real estate? Go take a look at any MLS listing. Am I wrong?

Now, let's give fabincabin credit for posing a valid question. Here's the perfectly pertinent question I'll pose to discern your contention. Do you believe it's possible to build a LHBA home INCLUDING land for $20,000.00? No that wasn't rhetorical. If you don't I say open your mind my friend. If you do, why would someone with a pre jaded mind come and pose this question with such an affronting style?

Thanks for your input though. If you are interested in what LHBA is teaching real people, many with little construction experience, to accomplish, welcome aboard. Register and take the class. Open your mind to possibilities. Share John F Kennedy's mindset when he said, "some see things that are and wonder why, I dream things that never were and say, why not?".

Gomer

02-15-2013, 03:12 PM

huh?????
Dan - thin' ya got a fever of sorts.;)

I will 'fess up to being on several forums like countryplans among others and have asked these questions or similar, more times than I care to admit to.:o
And I will say in probably 90% of the times asked people have been mighty cool about answering and seldom got their undies bunched up when newbs have asked. This is twisting the other direction it seems and nuttin' positive is coming of it for anyone

Pretty please __ lock this sucker up. Thinkin' way to many off the cuff shots being taken and don't think , me and my little ol' self, the OP even meant what's assumedor getting expanded on................................................ ..................................
Lock 'er up puuuuuuuhleeeeeze. I'll even buy you a beverage of your choice for doing so

loghousenut

02-15-2013, 03:12 PM

Open your mind to possibilities. Share John F Kennedy's mindset when he said, "some see things that are and wonder why, I dream things that never were and say, why not?".

It was George Bernard Shaw's line but well quoted by three Kennedys.

Dan, Why did it take so long for you to find LHBA? You've belonged here for years.

PS... That goes for you too Gomer.

Gomer

02-15-2013, 03:14 PM

And Ellsworth --- that link ya provided makes me wish I was sooooooooooooooooo here in 2007 or earlier. Thanks for showing the yesteryear era

LogHomeFeverDan

02-15-2013, 04:43 PM

It was George Bernard Shaw's line but well quoted by three Kennedys.

Dan, Why did it take so long for you to find LHBA? You've belonged here for years.

PS... That goes for you too Gomer.

I wholeheartedly believe, we end up where we are in the proper time for being there. I don't believe I was in the proper mindset prior to finding the LHBA. I was deeply fooled by the "rat race". Sometimes I need a good cast iron skillet upside the head to pattern interrupt. :p

Don

02-15-2013, 08:06 PM

There is no free speech constitutional right in a private forum.. Yes, I said as much when I stated that the owner can do whatever he likes with his board.

[QUOTE]I still contend he had a valid point, and could have gotten away with it if he had asked the question in a more tactful way. .[QUOTE]

Don

02-15-2013, 08:27 PM

are you really saying you can read this opening statement and not say this poster is cruising for an argument/bashing this site?
I don't have to hallucinate Dan, I think my initial post makes it clear that I think his point was valid and he was respectful. I don't think he was looking for an argument or bashing. I think he saw something that was suspect in his mind and expressed his opinion. I think what he did in print (doubt the claim of something) all of us do every day in our personal lives so it's hypocritical to pretend we don't make accusations.

Let's hallucinate a bit more and discuss the perspective of his post. How many "traditional homes" have you purchased? Has the purchase price ever been broken down by, physical structure and real estate? Go take a look at any MLS listing. Am I wrong? That's not what the issue is about. I think you misunderstand the point to his thread. I like to try and respond to questions directed at me but I think I've already made my feelings known in respect to the issues you've raised so no need to repeat them.

Regards

Matt F.

02-16-2013, 06:17 AM

I hope fabin is still lurking and can see this. Same applies to anyone who thinks LHBA is some sort of scam. The entire premise of "X" amount to build, sold for "Y" is to show that it is possible to build yourself an inexpensive home, that will have a value that is not equal to the amount you spent building it. Basically, the inexpensive home doesn't have to be a piece of crap shack. It can be just as nice as a "real" home. The best way to show that is to show examples of selling prices for some of these homes.

It is not a get rich quick scheme. Yes, there is an article about building homes and selling them, but that principle applies to anything you can build yourself. Make one broom, sell it. Make two brooms, sell them. Make four brooms, sell them. Etc, etc. It's possible, it's an option. But it's not the main goal of LHBA.

Don't get caught up in the details of one person's story, trying to catch a third party in a lie. You're missing the whole damn point!

-Matt

edkemper

02-16-2013, 10:19 AM

Don,

> I don't have to hallucinate Dan, I think my initial post makes it clear that I think his point was valid and he was respectful.

If I were to say you are lying or misleading us with this statement, do you still believe I am being respectful of you? Valid question or not, it isn't respectful posed as it is/was.

Just JMHO

JJ Jr

02-16-2013, 01:15 PM

And do most feel the responses sent at this guy/gal were not somewhat were sans respect also ????
I understand pretty much his and your sides of what was felt/,meant in comments and way sent I guess/think. (??)
What I sense is anyone looking in from outside may think we all a bit beserk and in need of meds also :o

Blondie

02-16-2013, 01:40 PM

Hi,

I think the key to his behavior maybe the issue that he called us "customers." There are many, many conotations of customers. My Dad, an airlines pilot, said the the people who flew with him were blind sheep. As a nurse, I found that my customers were woefully unprepared to deal with life and it's decisions. The families, under pressure fractured and acted out poorly.

This individual probably has a very poor opion of "his" Customers or other "customers" of the site.

Blondie

LogHomeFeverDan

02-16-2013, 03:39 PM

I don't have to hallucinate Dan, I think my initial post makes it clear that I think his point was valid and he was respectful. I don't think he was looking for an argument or bashing. I think he saw something that was suspect in his mind and expressed his opinion. I think what he did in print (doubt the claim of something) all of us do every day in our personal lives so it's hypocritical to pretend we don't make accusations.

That's not what the issue is about. I think you misunderstand the point to his thread. I like to try and respond to questions directed at me but I think I've already made my feelings known in respect to the issues you've raised so no need to repeat them.

Regards

Thanks again for your input Don. I've been chatting online with folks from all over the world for much longer than I care to admit. I'm also a Chiropractor by education who practiced for just shy of 15 years. None of that is to impress you but impress upon you I've conversed with folks in all "states of emotion" online and in 3D. If you initiate a conversation with a phrase that insinuates I won't or haven't been dealing with you on the level, and before you finish the sentence you use the term disingenuous, we probably won't have a conversation of more than a couple words.

I wasn't attempting to change your mind, just shed some light on why some might not see it your way.

spiralsands

02-17-2013, 03:39 AM

With every post, I get the feeling that no matter how many times we say, "Politeness counts when you talk to people who don't know you", he'll just come back with that same chip-on-the-shoulder retort. We are wasting our breath.

LogHomeFeverDan

02-17-2013, 06:21 AM

Basil

02-17-2013, 06:27 AM

I have to say, when I was still lurking here and hadn't taken the class, a lot of the old website (this was about 2001) was sort of too good to be true sounding and a little off-putting. I didn't entirely believe it all, especially the costs, but decided to take the class anyway. It was the class that Skip announced he was retiring, the last one he taught. After the class, I understood better. Skip was always about not spending money, that things can always be done cheaper. He was the type that would have used an old inner tube as a spring for a door rather than actually purchase a spring.

I guess my point is that the claims seemed over the top to me too, and were the only thing that caused me to second guess attending the class. So I can relate to his questions. Those that have taken the class understand that those claims ARE possible, by building on the super-cheap and making extra sacrifices. I don't think non-members can quite grasp how some of these claims are made. You CAN do things exactly as cheap as is claimed: By cutting your own trees, milling your own lumber, scrounging (not stealing) at construction sites for items they just throw away, begging and borrowing supplies and equipment, and so forth. Most people aren't willing to get their hands THAT dirty in the build. Most of my windows (Andersen double panes) were purchased for less than $10 each, but I had to know how to go about it. It wasn't a matter of getting what I wanted, it was a matter of getting what was available when it was available, and working around them when they weren't exactly what I wanted. I don't know about the whole land price included or excluded argument, I never got a calculator out to try to figure it up. But I totally understand when people say the claims are seem over the top. Short of getting them in the class, I don't know what the solution is.

LBolton2008

02-19-2013, 06:24 PM

Did someone say impressive cabins?
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/rckclmbr428/North%20Carolina%20Home/IMG_3341.jpg

WOW! Amazing monstrocity! :)

rreidnauer

02-19-2013, 06:53 PM

WOW! Amazing monstrocity! :)

Ya act like you've never seen an Ark being built before!

(scale really hits you when you notice the guy standing down front)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

LBolton2008

02-19-2013, 07:06 PM

Ya act like you've never seen an Ark being built before!

(scale really hits you when you notice the guy standing down front)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

What I wouldn't give to tour this baby, when it's complete! I might even PAY to do so!

LogHomeFeverDan

02-20-2013, 05:44 AM

WOW! Amazing monstrocity! :)
The McMansion is close enough to our building site that after class I'm going to twist Rckblmbr's arm enough to get a visit. May have to pay him royalties for pictures but it'd be worth it.

LBolton2008

02-21-2013, 07:47 PM

Don't sweat it. When putting the roofing panels on my pole barn 15' off the ground, I was very uncomfortable at first on top of the rafters with nothing to grab ahold of. By the last panel, I was walking the rafters like a pro. (just ask Steve Wolfe) Then came my 77' radio tower. First time up, it a) took forever to get to the top, with multiple pauses to build up my courage, and b) made me hang on for dear life at the slightest breeze. Now after a little more than a half dozen times, it feels like child's play and I have no problems working hands free even with the wind blowing. Funny what the brain will adapt to.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

77 feet????? No blasted way!

rreidnauer

02-21-2013, 08:00 PM

LOL! You'll be surprised how you'll adapt to your surroundings. We've all seen those old B&W photos of iron workers hundreds of feet up walking on skinny I-beams without any fall protection to speak of. The mind is a very powerful thing, though it can work for you and against you. Learn to control it, and you can achieve anything.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

loghousenut

02-21-2013, 08:59 PM

Darned tootin' the mind's a powerful thing. It makes me wanna puke and fall down in it whenever I look up at someone who is 77' up a tower.

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2

marvlus

02-22-2013, 06:29 AM

Darned tootin' the mind's a powerful thing. It makes me wanna puke and fall down in it whenever I look up at someone who is 77' up a tower.

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2
Can't be much worse than Bo finally doing the Neti pot thing. :p

loghousenut

02-22-2013, 06:42 AM

Can't be much worse than Bo finally doing the Neti pot thing. :p

I'da give a half day's pay to see that!

That's the ticket Marv... Now when Bo jumps in to defend himself, you pipe right in and accuse him of an attempted thread hijacking and we've got him.

On second thought maybe we should let Tom get his boots in it before we (I mean you) spring the trap. I'll just sit back and keep an eye out for Panderson.

panderson03

02-22-2013, 12:32 PM

oh I'm never far away Justa :) its really hard work keeping you on the straight and narrow !!

project

02-22-2013, 03:26 PM

My radio tower is a little on the tall side too!!http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/23/uhyna6am.jpg

panderson03

02-22-2013, 03:38 PM

W O W!! how tall is it?

rreidnauer

02-22-2013, 03:51 PM

Looks a lot higher than mine! I count at least four sets of guy wires. I'm guessing 100 to 125 feet?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

project

02-22-2013, 03:57 PM

It's 160' to the mast pole.

BoFuller

02-22-2013, 06:05 PM

What's hijacking?

BoFuller

02-22-2013, 06:06 PM

And what's a Neti pot?

blane

02-22-2013, 06:07 PM

Yea, this is a good thread to hijack guys.

rreidnauer

02-22-2013, 06:23 PM

160 feet! Pretty sure the FAA would hassle me with that beast, being that I'm 1.3 miles from a small airport. At the very least they'd require me to illuminate it day and night, or paint it red/white and illuminate at night only, AND probably required to be certified (read: expensive) redundant backup lighting powered by "reliable" grid power.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

project

02-22-2013, 07:07 PM

Tom Featherstone

02-23-2013, 01:25 AM

marvlus

02-23-2013, 04:22 AM

I'da give a half day's pay to see that!

That's the ticket Marv... Now when Bo jumps in to defend himself, you pipe right in and accuse him of an attempted thread hijacking and we've got him.

On second thought maybe we should let Tom get his boots in it before we (I mean you) spring the trap. I'll just sit back and keep an eye out for Panderson.

What's hijacking?

And what's a Neti pot?

A half a day's pay when you only work maybe a half a day, is less than a quarter.... Don't follow him Marv, he tried many a time to get me to spring the traps just to see if I'd snap it on my own fingers just for a laugh :mad: He was always looking out for me... Right! :eek:

Attention Log Home Builders!

We have a TDE (Thread Devolver Extraordinaire) Alert! The Fuller-Featherstone gang are in full swing and on the loose on this thread! They are considered to be extremely armed and dangerous and carrying a stash of TDE weapons.

Panderson03 - You have my blessing and best wishes to confront this gang, to convince them to hand over their stash to you, and to firmly, but gently remind them that TDE doings are not allowed on these forums.

Why do I allow myself to get sucked up into this ? Sheesh! (speaking to myself)

loghousenut

02-23-2013, 08:22 AM

That's the ticket Marv. Don't let 'em get away with it. It's about, darned time you exercised your authority as "former acting President of the National TDE Forum Police semi-organization".

This thread has sorta devolved ever since Fabincabin went back to that other forum. I miss him but I don't quite miss him enough to go to the other forum. Those guys are kinda rough and they don't play nice.

I'm home from work today and I think I'll catch up on a thread I was gonna start on the my latest dallying in the black arts. I made a couple of railroad spike knives, with a lot of help and advice form my Son, and I think they turned out rather nice. It's not a commercial venture, just paying off a couple of debts of gratitude from a couple of old friends.

If any of you "outsiders" want to see what a dagger made form a railroad spike looks like, just go to class and get on the "member's only" side of this forum and you'll get an eyeful. You'll like the member's side... Less thread hijacking and more just plain ole log home stuff.

BoFuller

02-23-2013, 10:16 AM

Nobody answered me. What's hijacking? :)

BoFuller

02-23-2013, 10:16 AM

I'd like to learn how.

loghousenut

02-23-2013, 10:20 AM

Don't fret it Bo, you'll catch on just fine.

BoFuller

02-23-2013, 10:36 AM

I'm babysitting my grandsons (5, 3, and 1) while Mommy is out of town and Dad is working. I'm worn out! Building isn't this tiring!!!

Is this what you call hijacking? :)

localfiend

02-23-2013, 10:59 AM

You guys keep this up, and it'l draw out Harrison Ford. Nobody wants that to happen.

Codeman

03-01-2013, 01:20 PM

Wow just saw this thread. I just love it when someone bashes this idea and doesn't know anything about it. I get it all the time. They think there is no way You could do build like this. Or You have to sink Yourself into huge debt to do it. Thanks Guys for defending LHBA!

BoFuller

03-01-2013, 03:45 PM

Codeman

03-01-2013, 04:47 PM

Tryin to. Gotta get back out to that stack soon!

drummer boy

03-02-2013, 05:05 PM

I think I will have one of those scenarios with a small number invested given that land and the trees are given to me. His concerns crossed my mind as I am skeptical but I am smart enough to realize that there are all kinds of factors that are impossible to list on a web page. I appreciate anyone that would give their opinion and concerns. It does show that they are at least thinking. Well....their way of communicating that thinking could probably use a bit of refinement but I appreciate those that are willing to ask questions.

exsailor

03-05-2013, 08:17 AM

Spiralsands, one of our members lived in Florida, and saw palm trees fall. They are too fibrious as mentioned and insects devour them in nothing flat. Look to something a bit more substantial.

jasonfromutah

03-05-2013, 08:55 AM

After reading this thread for the first time, I keep coming back to two words. And these two words are directed at the Originator:

COMMON SENSE

thoner7

03-05-2013, 09:19 AM

I work 14 days on and 7 days off and can't take off during the 14 days unless an extreme emergency. Only holiday is Christmas and even them if duty calls I have to go. Last year I marked my whole schedule for the year on the calendar and watched the class dates with no luck.. The first date that comes up and I'm off I will be the first to sign up for the class.

Yep, I've been in one of those rotational schedules too (mostly "2weeks -on / 2weeks -off" -- oilfields of the Alaskan "North Slope", but also 2 MONTHS on 1 off on some other ultra-remote site stuff). Shame you can't "trade" with someone or have someone cover you for the coupla days. Well, good luck in nailing down a good weekend to take the class, Project.

If either of you know much about working the Texas or OK oil/natgas fields please PM me with some info. Im interested in that field and it sounds like you both may know the deal..

Thanks.

JJ Jr

03-05-2013, 11:40 AM

after reading this thread for the first time, i keep coming back to two words. And these two words are directed at the originator:

Common sense

w h a t ????

loghousenut

03-05-2013, 12:25 PM

project

03-05-2013, 04:28 PM

If either of you know much about working the Texas or OK oil/natgas fields please PM me with some info. Im interested in that field and it sounds like you both may know the deal..

Thanks.

Why would you like to know?

project

03-05-2013, 04:29 PM

That was supposed to be what would you like to know . Stupid auto correct

spiralsands

03-06-2013, 02:53 AM

Spiralsands, one of our members lived in Florida, and saw palm trees fall. They are too fibrious as mentioned and insects devour them in nothing flat. Look to something a bit more substantial.

Huh? I don't want palm trees. I live in Upstate NY and have a forest of pines and hardwoods, about 15 acres, my own to log. You musta been thinking of someone else.

Frances (spiralsands)

JJ Jr

03-06-2013, 04:52 AM

Quote Originally Posted by jasonfromutah "after reading this thread for the first time, i keep coming back to two words. And these two words are directed at the originator:

Common sense"

JJ Jr said "w h a t ????"

JJ, It's a term that Skip invented and it has been defined, and used, in every LHBA class since the beginning of time. It means.... Well, I'm afraid I can't do it justice but it means something like "You already know you want to build your own log home with your own hands. Now that you understand that it is possible, get out there and do it!"

More on this sometime after noon on the first day of class.

LHN ____ My old man used the term as far back as WWII-Korean War and he said years ago Gramps used it as an expression of why the Great Depression happened. Being a survivor of the .com meltdown and '07s confirmation that what goes hope shall come down we mostly all know something similar one hopes. By watching things go up around me that again are $2M plus homes it seems not to be applicable to everyone I guess.
Think the new milleniums term might be live within your means vs common sense. Just they don't often practice it. :(
Attended a "green and build small" workshop some years back now and they used similar expressions.
Both would be correct, if not necessarily specific I guess to whatever.
Heck - I even used common sense last night when youngest said he was looking at an new SUV and comes over all excited about spending $44k and change for somethat that'll look like mine in a year or 2. I would have sold him mine for $12k :o

I thought there was a missing "something" in the post or it was a continuation of something from somewhere so I was lost at where and why the comment made
in this thread.

exsailor

03-06-2013, 06:57 AM

Huh? I don't want palm trees. I live in Upstate NY and have a forest of pines and hardwoods, about 15 acres, my own to log. You musta been thinking of someone else.

Frances (spiralsands)

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was referring to the post that you described how long palm trees last on the ground, not that you were building with them.

Ellsworth

08-02-2024, 12:57 PM

Necro bump (in my defense, the thread caught my eye today because a webcrawler was indexing it. But I'll likely do a few more.). ;)

Feel free to add content.

Including explaining 'what does JJ mean?"

Ellsworth

08-09-2024, 08:24 AM

Disclosure, I have no idea what Ron is referring to by mentioning "JJ."
I've never heard my father utter that line.

At a guess it might stand for "Just Joking."
At a guess it might not stand for "John Johnson." (Just Joking! or 'Which JJ?')

Building a real log home, as an owner-builder, can be the most expensive disaster of your life.
It might also be the kind of hard adventure that changes your life for the better.

Edited to add:
I suppose it could be a reference to 'Jungle Juice.'
I would not be a fan of that reference (in any of its meanings), or maybe I would be (in some or all of them), but now I'm considering it.
It's a phrase I do nor remember from my youth, yet I know it was in use at the time.

Shark

08-09-2024, 02:32 PM

I think Ron was just replying to the member JJ Jr....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240809/4214ac9ce1d2f1520fbde3ada95bd621.jpg

jandjloghome.blogspot.com

Ellsworth

08-09-2024, 03:24 PM

Ahhh, yup, now I read it that way.

I thought he meant Skip said "JJ" in every class.

Ellsworth

08-12-2024, 04:36 AM

When I glanced at this thread the first time, here's what I thought JJ was referring to.

Skip saying something like this, on day two of class, near the end:

Now you know, building a log home can be one of the dumbest decisions of your life.

It can ruin you financially.
It can wreck your marriage
It can make your kids hate you.
It can injure or kill someone during the process.
It can take 10x longer than you ever thought possible
Just Joking!

And then Ron's comment would be a natural second bit to that routine:

"You already know you want to build your own log home with your own hands. Now that you understand that it is possible, get out there and do it!"

And then Skip might add:

Just kidding, none of that was a joke

Welcome to life's roller coaster.

The main point being, if the drive is WITHIN you, then all those potential negatives won't hold you back. They can't hold you back.
Because it's your desire that drives you.