Second Floor Noise

[John W]

Quick question for those already living in their houses, visited them, done or nearly done. So you have the big floor joists to support the second floor, and tongue and groove flooring on top of that. How is the sound level as people run around / walk around upstairs? I know the outside walls will make the house pretty soundproof from outside noise, but was wondering about inside noise.
On a different track, but close to the same subject. About 20 years ago, we had a (stick) house built for us in another town. Nice house for us. The second floor had the dining room, and I could jump up across the room from the china cabinet, and when I landed, every glass in the china cabinet would rattle. Looking forward to something more solid than that!

[rckclmbr428]

its a lot noisier then a standard home. I have a 60lb dog that makes a lot of noise walking and trotting around upstairs. I plan on carpeting a lot of the upstairs in the next house I build just to cut down on noise.

[blane]

Your first floor will be solid as a rock but you can feel a little bounce upstairs.

[rreidnauer]

Back when I had ferrets, and I was living on the second story with low-pile carpet, people could hear muffled roughousing of them critters. (yes, they were VERY energetic for their size) Anyhow, I solved the noise problem with a backed area rug. (not only did it stop the noise transference, but it was a new "toy" for the critters to play under!)

As for bounce, shorter spans and/or bigger joists are the only way to solve it. On a side note, when I was Christmas shopping down at the mall, I noticed how much vibration there was on the upper floors from people just walking around. Just an effect of the huge spans they do now-a-days with heavily engineered reinforced concrete. I found it disconcerting, but didn't seem to bother anyone else.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[loghousenut]

Yes, the second floor in a LHBA style home can transmit a little more noise that the floor of a normal stick built but it's just a part of the deal. A person could go with a more conventional second floor, with engineered joists sitting on the first floor walls and sheetrocked below with insulation in the cavity. It'd cost about the same and might be easier in the long run but nobody does it.

Part of the charm in these things is the solidity and honesty of open beams and lumber. Heck most of us fight to figure out ways to run the second floor plumbing and electrical without loosing the view of the bottom of the upper floors.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

While I'm not an acoustics expert I know there are ways to dampen the noise. They have all sorts of material. Of course is it mostly mechanical from human/animal movement or creaking/squeaking of the T & G flooring???

[Ellsworth]

Here are a couple thoughts:


Your T&G floor should not squeak or creak if properly installed.
Your first floor is typically 40psf live load, and you're allowed to do 30psf for a second floor if it's sleeping rooms. So depending on your PSF you might get a little bounce in sleeping areas if you jump up and down. If you absolutely hate that, then overbuild your floor system under your bedrooms.
There is actually a really inexpensive and easy fix for bouncy floors, if you have exposed joists. It just takes some 1/8" flat iron.
Yes there's a bit more sound transmission in a 'traditional' Skip style butt and pass log home. We do explain in class at least 2 alternative that minimizes sound transmission, and the pros/cons of the 3 methods. If this is something that really concerns you talk to an instructor during a break at class and we'll explain several other methods too.
Carpet with a good quality pad goes a long way to deadening the sound from upstairs. I'd try to avoid laying a hardwood floor in an upstairs hallway.

[blane]

Heck most of us fight to figure out ways to run the second floor plumbing and electrical without loosing the view of the bottom of the upper floors.

I know I really am struggling with covering up all that t@g in the master bath but you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Basil]

I agree it's louder, and mine is enclosed with insulation and my plumbing/electric inside as well. Carpet upstairs would make all the difference in the world, and would have been cheaper too, but the wife wouldn't have it.

[John W]

Thanks for the comments everybody.

I like the look of the boards from underneath too. It almost seems like a crime to cover up great hardwood floors with carpet, doesn't it? I can see some area rugs though. We won't have kids with us anyway by the time I get this thing done. Would just be the two of us and whatever guests drop by, so not a huge deal with noise, I was just curious.

However on the bounce thing, yes, I would consider over-engineering it. But then, it's all about the money planning, deciding where you want to save money and where to spend it, what's important to you. To me, one of the main points is building something that the great grandkids are going to argue over, and I don't even have grandkids yet.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Carpet???? Carpet you say in our LHBA home???? ..... Blasphemy!!!! :p

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Well ok......rugs ....but been trying to get AWAY from carpet for years!! :cool:

[pinecone pam]

I didn't want noise! 5x12 reclaimed timbers, topped with nice , light colored 1/2 tng pine. That's what I see from below, massive but clean, and the pine wasn't too expensive. I left a cavity. I needed space for duct work, wiring etc. Sorry,,, had to have a few of the modern conveniences! 2x6 firring strips and 3/4 " decking, with insulation in between. Glue between everything! Screws not nails will help a ton. Carpet pad and good carpet! It's warm, it's quiet, it's beautiful!

[pinecone pam]

Too funny LHFeverDan! I thought it was only blasphemy if it was downstairs!

[John W]

Sure can't argue with Pam's decisions/results on ANYTHING in her house!

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Too funny LHFeverDan! I thought it was only blasphemy if it was downstairs!

LOL Pam....I might could almost...possibly...agree with you on "downstairs". Nah.....still don't want carpet. I'll take wood flooring and area rugs. In all honesty, at least pre class, we're thinking the master down stairs and master bath will be "conventional" so to speak ceiling, thus the bedrooms up would be "quiet". Upstairs "balcony" overlooking the great room would be traditional, thus the potentially "noisy" <and I realize that's a "relative" term> area will be when the girls are playing or watching tv or in the balcony area.

[Gomer]

Pam - I need to ask this and have meant to for a long time.

That moosehead on the wall --- that one you harvested yourself?
Beautiful place you created - always admired it! :cool:

[LBolton2008]

Good to know. I'm not a fan of carpet because I'm a germaphobe, but it does make it a bit 'warmer.' I hadn't thought about the noice factor.

[LBolton2008]

I'm with your wife on this one!

[LBolton2008]

No kidding. Beeee-u-tiful!

[LBolton2008]

Totally agree!!!!

[LBolton2008]

Sure can't argue with Pam's decisions/results on ANYTHING in her house!

Absolutely! Beee-u-tiful!

[Kim7777]

Here are a couple thoughts:


Your T&G floor should not squeak or creak if properly installed.
Your first floor is typically 40psf live load, and you're allowed to do 30psf for a second floor if it's sleeping rooms. So depending on your PSF you might get a little bounce in sleeping areas if you jump up and down. If you absolutely hate that, then overbuild your floor system under your bedrooms.
There is actually a really inexpensive and easy fix for bouncy floors, if you have exposed joists. It just takes some 1/8" flat iron.
Yes there's a bit more sound transmission in a 'traditional' Skip style butt and pass log home. We do explain in class at least 2 alternative that minimizes sound transmission, and the pros/cons of the 3 methods. If this is something that really concerns you talk to an instructor during a break at class and we'll explain several other methods too.
Carpet with a good quality pad goes a long way to deadening the sound from upstairs. I'd try to avoid laying a hardwood floor in an upstairs hallway.


Ellsworth: You mention an easy way to reinforce second floor joists, using 1/8" flat iron. We have a bouncy second floor in our log home, with an exposed ceiling joists looking up at the second floor from the first floor. Can you elaborate? How would we do this.? Thank you for your time and help.

[Ellsworth]

Ellsworth: You mention an easy way to reinforce second floor joists, using 1/8" flat iron. We have a bouncy second floor in our log home, with an exposed ceiling joists looking up at the second floor from the first floor. Can you elaborate? How would we do this.? Thank you for your time and help.

The technique I referenced generally works great in a log home that uses standard LHBA construction practices (joist material, mounting methods, etc). We favor an exposed joist design, so it might work for you too. I'm happy to explain it with the caveat that you want to run this by your own engineer ;) It won't work in every situation and deviations may be required depending upon the extent of the sag in your joists, joist material, how your joists are hung, why they are sagging, existing dead load, et cetera.

Get some pieces of 1/8" flat iron. The iron should be about as wide as your joist material. They should be slightly shorter than the span (by about an inch or two), so they can be mounted onto the underside of joists without interference from joist hangers. It's an armful to get them up if you try to shoot for a tight fit on the length (and it's not necessary).

Lay a piece of flat iron down and draw a line down it's full length, dead center. You are going to drill a series of holes marching down the flat iron, and the holes should be alternately offset from that center line by about 3/8".

Now draw some lines dividing the total length into thirds. Mark for a series of 3/16" holes in the iron in the following pattern: On the middle third the holes should be 8" OC, on the outer two thirds the holes should be 6" OC. So imagine you have a 15' piece of steel. For the first 5' the holes should be 6" OC, for the middle 5' they should be 8" OC, and for the last 5' they should again be 6" OC.

A drill press with lubricating fluid is ideal for the drilling. Aesthetically it looks best if you clamp the iron together and then drill the holes all at once (so everything matches between joists).

If these will be left exposed then paint the iron, or let it rust and then seal it, or apply whatever treatment you think will look cool in a log home. Now you're ready to install them.

Hold one up in place, dead center on the underside of a joist. Add wood screws to a couple of holes in the middle section (8" OC), but not on the outer two thirds. You want to slightly jack the center of the joist up to get rid of sag (you can do them all at once using a temporary support beam). If there is a lot of sag then the jacking process must take place incrementally over a couple weeks to reduce the risk of damage. Once you've eliminated all the sag you can finish mounting the flat iron with wood screws.

A couple notes about the screws: The shank of the screws should be just a hair smaller than the holes in the flat iron -- if the holes and shank aren't a tight fit, then you end up with some play which may prevent the flat iron from forming a proper tension member. Drill a proper pilot hole for each screw. Use regular non-hardened wood screws. They should be about 3" long.

Essentially you're adding a bottom flange to each joist, drastically increasing the strength and stiffness. You could even use a 2x4 and get pretty good results, but the metal looks better in a log home with exposed joists imho.

[Kim7777]

The technique I referenced generally works great in a log home that uses standard LHBA construction practices (joist material, mounting methods, etc). We favor an exposed joist design, so it might work for you too. I'm happy to explain it with the caveat that you want to run this by your own engineer ;) It won't work in every situation and deviations may be required depending upon the extent of the sag in your joists, joist material, how your joists are hung, why they are sagging, existing dead load, et cetera.

Get some pieces of 1/8" flat iron. The iron should be about as wide as your joist material. They should be slightly shorter than the span (by about an inch or two), so they can be mounted onto the underside of joists without interference from joist hangers. It's an armful to get them up if you try to shoot for a tight fit on the length (and it's not necessary).

Lay a piece of flat iron down and draw a line down it's full length, dead center. You are going to drill a series of holes marching down the flat iron, and the holes should be alternately offset from that center line by about 3/8".

Now draw some lines dividing the total length into thirds. Mark for a series of 3/16" holes in the iron in the following pattern: On the middle third the holes should be 8" OC, on the outer two thirds the holes should be 6" OC. So imagine you have a 15' piece of steel. For the first 5' the holes should be 6" OC, for the middle 5' they should be 8" OC, and for the last 5' they should again be 6" OC.

A drill press with lubricating fluid is ideal for the drilling. Aesthetically it looks best if you clamp the iron together and then drill the holes all at once (so everything matches between joists).

If these will be left exposed then paint the iron, or let it rust and then seal it, or apply whatever treatment you think will look cool in a log home. Now you're ready to install them.

Hold one up in place, dead center on the underside of a joist. Add wood screws to a couple of holes in the middle section (8" OC), but not on the outer two thirds. You want to slightly jack the center of the joist up to get rid of sag (you can do them all at once using a temporary support beam). If there is a lot of sag then the jacking process must take place incrementally over a couple weeks to reduce the risk of damage. Once you've eliminated all the sag you can finish mounting the flat iron with wood screws.

A couple notes about the screws: The shank of the screws should be just a hair smaller than the holes in the flat iron -- if the holes and shank aren't a tight fit, then you end up with some play which may prevent the flat iron from forming a proper tension member. Drill a proper pilot hole for each screw. Use regular non-hardened wood screws. They should be about 3" long.

Essentially you're adding a bottom flange to each joist, drastically increasing the strength and stiffness. You could even use a 2x4 and get pretty good results, but the metal looks better in a log home with exposed joists imho.

Ellsworth! Thank you so much. I will give this to my builder, and see what we can do. I will let you know how it goes. Again thank you,!!

[JeffandSara]

We have just a little bounce in spots on our first floor (built more like a "traditional" floor on a modified pier foundation), but none at all noticeable in the second and third floors, which are traditional "Skip-style". Solid as a rock, just like Skip's (20 people all walking upstairs at one time with no floor bounce was one of the things I was most impressed with at the class!) There's also no creak at all anywhere, although once or twice a year, we'll get a little popping noise the first time we walk upstairs after a drastic change in humidity.

We have Persian rugs, but no carpet and minimal tile (bathrooms, entry areas), and don't find the house a bit "noisier" than our previous stick-built, fully-carpeted house. You can tell someone else is IN the house (which, frankly, I consider a good thing <wink>), but there's still ample privacy and it's easy to shut your bedroom/bathroom door if you want quiet when someone else is watching TV, doing chores, etc. This is important since my husband works unusual hours, so needs to sometimes sleep at unusual times.

Admittedly, however, we aren't a family who are generally all locked away in our rooms blasting our own different radio or TV programs all the time. We designed most of our rooms on purpose to connect, rather than separate, our activities and conversations. If we were really sensitive to eachother's regular "living" noises, I can't say if we'd feel differently.

Good luck finding a balance that works for your needs and preferences. :D Sara

[rreidnauer]

Speaking of bouncy floors, there's this guy named Jamie in Vermont who's third floor is REALLY bouncy. (he didn't build LHBA style) It's so bouncy, in fact, that he posted up video: http://youtu.be/Z-IFTNUUxP0?t=1m35s

[StressMan79]

Just saw he's moving to chile, sold tha dome and up and left.

[rreidnauer]

I had known he had sold and moved, but didn't know he chose to go to Chile.

A lot of his earlier videos are pretty educational for off grid stuff.

[loghousenut]

I had known he had sold and moved, but didn't know he chose to go to Chile.

A lot of his earlier videos are pretty educational for off grid stuff.

I think a fellow who has a trampoline loft in his dome is the kinda guy who would just naturally move to Chile.

Whatdidjaexpect... Think he'd suddenly go to work for a bank in Omaha?

[StressMan79]

Guess he was looking@ Chile... Now in Panama. Hasn't decided where to go, just not Vermont.

[edkemper]

Sounds like many US citizens. Just trying to find a more inviting place to go.

[Penetrater]

another option other than carpet I am thinking about is vinyl floor planks, it really looks good in the hand scraped designs , quiet and feels really good under foot , not as slick for dogs also has a 30 yr. warranty and is easy as laying it on the ground ,no glue and no padding ( like with laminate flooring ) only one strip of tape on the outside perimeter . cost was around $4psf now less than $2.

[Penetrater]

I was just going to add , I have been reading post hear for a year or so , looking to attend the class in may ( will know this week) and the above post was my first post on hear, I read a lot but don't post much unless I think it could be useful to others. good luck .