What is it that allows the Butt and Pass method not to settle?

[thoner7]

I am curious as the the engineering behind it? If the logs themselves shrink and get smaller how can the whole house not do the same?

Another reason I am curious - I dream of building a house in the shape of a T, that would basically be two rectangles interwoven together, allowing the two rectangles to share some walls and giving me some interior log walls - like my design below. The two interior corners, it may be better for me to do the notched design rather than butt and pass. Still not certain yet, but I wanted to find out why these houses dont settle before I decide...

BUT - my main question - If I do those corners differently, will they settle while the rest of the house doesnt? Or if they are spiked with rebar just the same, will they be ok?


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[thoner7]

My design didnt work, let me try something else...

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[panderson03]

the logs do shrink (each of them toward its center). all the rebar in our builds keep the walls from getting shorter :) great question

[rckclmbr428]

If you mixed styles you would have to account for settling in the notched part but not the rebar pinned part. I would recommend doing it all one style, obviously I prefer the rebar style.

[thoner7]

So you are saying that the logs diameter shrinks but the log will stay centered on the rebar - so the entire structure together doesnt settle?

Is that why you only drive the rebar half way through the log below, and not all the way through?

[loghousenut]

I don't know about the rest of us but when I get that rebar pounded in halfway through the log below, I'm about done. The log below is not drilled, so you are driving a blunt 1/2" diameter nail (with ridges on it) entirely through a 1/2" hole in the upper log, and then 1/2 way through another log that is not predrilled. It's kinda fun the first 30 or 40 times you do it.

Half way through is plenty, and If you tried going much further it would be easy for the occasional errant, slightly bent, rebar to exit out the lower side of a log and split out a big ole chunk of log.


This won't make sense to a lot of folks who have not been to class but it seems that you (tnoner7) have a pretty good grasp of loggy things. There's a March class. Guarantee you'll never regret it.

[Timberwolf]

I find it better to refer to the LHBA way as "Tight Pinned Butt and Pass" as you could use a butt and pass corner system with squared timbers (as many "kit home" manf do) and you will get appreciable settling


The entire "Does not settle" is ever so slightly incorrect (and I believe has been pointed out here before but is worth mentioning). Technically the house does settle a tiny bit. But not in any appreciable way to matter. As/if/when the bottom log looses moisture, the house will reduce in height by 1/2 of the amount it shrinks. For most, this will occur before any doors are cut, and if built on pier blocks, is irrelevant.
Additionally, the top most logs are subject to the same effect. However, since the roof follows evenly (and can weigh up to 10 of thousands of pounds) there will no gap, lowering required or consequence to be born. My own house has zero problems with doors or windows opening (except for 1 problem, due to improper installation from the company I bought them from, but that's another story) and I made no account for settling at all.

As a whole, the LHBA system (and it is a system) of building, is simplicity at it's core, longevity at it's heart and strength throughout.

[AkChas]

Short answer to this question -- and MANY others that you may not even be aware of yet -- Take the LHBA class!
It will open your eyes....and possibly make your Jaw Drop! (Mine did -- still does sometimes : )

[rocklock]

I have over 900 23" rebar pins in my log home... It does not and has not settled...

I suggest you try a little experiment. Get a scrap piece of rebar that is 1/2 inch in dia... Then drill a 1/2 hole in a green log or a tree if your short a log... pound in the rebar about 4 inches. It should be very easy... Then try to take it out... Do not try to take it out with something expensive like your pickup... you might break something...
After you try this experiment, then you will understand...

I have a wall that has had drywall (to form the bathroom) up to a horizontal log that crosses my log home. If my wall shrank, the drywall would crumble or some how show the effects of shrinkage... It doesn't. Hence my log have not shrank. Period...

About your design. You have a lot of walls vs your interior area... You have 10 segments... Lets say each is 15 foot long... Then you have 4 times 225 sqft or 900 sqft... for a log wall that is 150 feet long...

My log home is 900 sqft with a wall length of 120 ft... Then I have a free basement, another 900 sqft, and then I have 16 foot wall which allowed a second floor... or a total sqft of about 2550 sqft...

But different strokes for different folks...

good luck

[loghousenut]

As a whole, the LHBA system (and it is a system) of building, is simplicity at it's core, longevity at it's heart and strength throughout.


WOW!!!... What a quote!!!

Fuzzy, you oughta claim that one as your tag line before it enters the public domain where someone can steal it. It has heart, soul, and brevity, while retaining accuracy.

[Timberwolf]

WOW!!!... What a quote!!!

Fuzzy, you oughta claim that one as your tag line before it enters the public domain where someone can steal it. It has heart, soul, and brevity, while retaining accuracy.

Indeed.

Done.

[thoner7]

I don't know about the rest of us but when I get that rebar pounded in halfway through the log below, I'm about done. The log below is not drilled, so you are driving a blunt 1/2" diameter nail (with ridges on it) entirely through a 1/2" hole in the upper log, and then 1/2 way through another log that is not predrilled. It's kinda fun the first 30 or 40 times you do it.

Half way through is plenty, and If you tried going much further it would be easy for the occasional errant, slightly bent, rebar to exit out the lower side of a log and split out a big ole chunk of log.


This won't make sense to a lot of folks who have not been to class but it seems that you (tnoner7) have a pretty good grasp of loggy things. There's a March class. Guarantee you'll never regret it.

I didnt realize the second log was not drilled, I assume there is a reason for that? I am also suprised you only use 1/2" rebar, that isnt the strongest stuff, I would have thought the weight of a big log could bend them right over if they started to roll.

PS: I'm very familier with building things. I've worked various construction jobs since I was in highschool, done a number of bathroom and kitchens installs, both renos and stuff from scratch, a number of decks, even ran my own roofing company while I was in college. I have built some smaller pole barns in my day, which I call pole garages because they are small lol. So I'm sure I could build one of these too, and handle some complexity in the design as well.

I had planned to build myself a house at somepoint, and only more recently decided that log homes are way cool so I should try one of those. But there are some things I haven't been able to wrap my head around. Another, is how do you anchor the verticle log (the one that supports the ridge log on either end) if you do a full basement? Is it just pinned to a footer and strapped to the wall to keep it upright?

Would love to take the class, and very well may if I can get some time off in March.

[StressMan79]

thoner,

without giving away the whole system, while one rebar is not strong in compression, 16 or so are very strong. I will wager that you are not perfect either, so the bar will not be in a perfect line, so you won't be able to buckle that system...

There are very good reasons not to predrill your bottom log (although, it is likely not the end of the world if you start to -- I used an 18' auger on 15" logs, with a 1 inch gap between them, and so started a pocket on many of the bottom logs. I too am noticing no settling.

the verts (we call them RPSL) are fastened to the side of the logs... and may or my not be to the cement... that is up to the engineer in charge.

Take the durn class... you can have all of your questions answered by professionals, rather than just some log aficionados...

-Peter

[thoner7]

Stressman - I am hoping to take the class sooner rather than later, in the meantime, thanks for the help! Much appreciated.

[John17three]

The goal is for the people to settle not the log home. :-)

I'm sure you can only imagine how unsettling it would be if you found out your log home settled and you were not prepared for it. That's a kit home, not LHBA home.

Btw, take the class, and don't settle for anything less! :-0

[rreidnauer]

The goal is for the people to settle not the log home. :-)

I'm sure you can only imagine how unsettling it would be if you found out your log home settled and you were not prepared for it. That's a kit home, not LHBA home.

Btw, take the class, and don't settle for anything less! :-0Does this mean that we can consider this matter settled?

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[weedgnr]

So I understand the idea of the logs shrinking around the rebar causing them to tighten around said rebar and become an even tighter structure. And I understand how this will not affect the operation of doors and windows (it won't). However, does this then mean you will have to go back over the mortar chinking to fill any gaps that form or is the chinking supposed to be flexible enough to naturally fill these potential voids? I've heard that the properties of mortar as chinking is not ideal for situations of contracting and expanding. To that I say that it works for you guys but I'm curious as to an official LHBA explanation.

And to the point of having a log joist that your drywall butts up against, when that log shrinks around its center wouldn't that leave a gap at the top of your wall?

Thanks! I love the helpfulness of people on this forum. I've been fairly quiet on here but I've read nearly everything on the website and nearly every link on the website and on this forum. I can't wait to be in a position to take the class and get started on my own log home.

[blane]

Yes the mortar will separate a little "maybe 1/4 inch at the most" on the top of the chinking. You can go back and fill the void after a couple of years to give the log's time to shrink as much as they are going to. Some of us use permachink to fill in the gap. As far as around the sheetrock you would use caulk and the same would apply. The mortar chinking is much less expensive and it is not really a good idea to completely chink with a synthetic chinking as it will trap moisture inside your logs and cause them to rot.

[loghousenut]

Weedgnr,

Bear in mind that the real problem with shrinkage in a conventional log structure is the cumulatiive effect of the entire wall settling as each log shrinks slightly. That's why they need a settling space above each door and window and screwjacks under columns.

Many log homes use mortar chinking and have sheetrock butting against a log or beam. The small gap that can form due to the shrinkage of a single log is usualy negligible and easy to deal with. I have been in many LHBA homes that were 10 or 20 years old and had never had chinking touched up. Any chinking gaps were pretty durned unnoticeable and the homes were pleasant and undrafty. Warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

There are a number of latex chinking products that will seal things up even tighter and some LHBA students use them. I will use mortar because it is cheap and proven.

The system works.

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2

[rocklock]

I've heard that the properties of mortar as chinking is not ideal for situations of contracting and expanding. To that I say that it works for you guys but I'm curious as to an official LHBA explanation.
And to the point of having a log joist that your drywall butts up against, when that log shrinks around its center wouldn't that leave a gap at the top of your wall?

I have stacked my logs in 2007. Chinked in 2009. The log home has shrunk the very most after one winter of heating with wood. After two winters of heating the logs have not appreciatively moved. I have purchased two cases of a latex caulking to seal the cracks.

So about contracting and expanding, it happens, but my logs remain tight. For an official Explanation, I don't understand why my comments are not useful. I have pictures. If you lived in Washington, you could come over and check it out...

I have deleted several biased comments about cooperate governance in relation to For An Official Explanation.

[weedgnr]

Don't be offended rocklock. I consider your input, as well as the input from blane and LHN to be very helpful and as official as one can get short of taking the class. I have no doubts the system works but knowing that doesn't answer all questions. I plan on using the mortar chinking as well. Also, good point about cumulative settling.

[edkemper]

Let's just say that one log shrinks 1/8th inch diameter each for explanation. Each our logs shrink 1/8th inch but don't settle because of the rebar.

Log kit homes, each course shrinks 1/8 inch also. With approximately 16 courses, the top of their walls could settle 2 inches while ours remain the same, minus 1/8 inch.

[Basil]

All I can tell you is that after living here almost five years now, my stairs still fit perfectly, my doors and windows are fine, and the drywall is cracking nowhere. Oddly enough, these are all problems that I'm experiencing in my stick built office...

[John W]

I think LHN posted something in response to my chinking question a while ago that made sense. There are pluses and minuses about letting your logs age for a year, but that would really take care of 90% or so of the shrinking, right?

Watching 'Buying Alaska' show on tv. They visited several log houses, and showed the people the screwjacks they would have to take care of. Quote, "All log homes settle." I wanted to scream at the tv. I also cringed at the grooved logs that will hold water, and the guy was bragging how windproof it was, good seal.

I searched for other forums' comments about LHBA last week. Man, there's a lot of haters of LHBA out there. And many defenders, some from current people I see on this forum. One thing I read did seem to make sense to me as a critique, and would only apply to building with green logs. If you use green logs, as they shrink to the center of each log, does that mean that basically, the logs will be 'suspended' on top of the rebar and not touching the logs below? Is that strong enough in all directions for that bottom log with a dozen pieces of rebar to hold up the entire wall and roof? See what I mean? Not that 12 or 15 pieces of rebar is a small thing, but that's a LOT of weight.

[blane]

I have on average 306 pieces of rebar per wall 1224 pieces for the entire house. The logs will not shrink enough to be a problem on the rebar. My logs have been stacked 2 years now and I just noticed Saturday while running wire there are many places in my logs where there are no gaps between my logs at all. Rebar is extremely strong and can carry a lot of weight and since those who chose to build with other methods thats what they know and thats what they are comfortable with and probably will not really ever give the tight pin b&p much of a chance and instead of considering the positives they will do all they can to discredit what we do. Oh well, their loss.

[rreidnauer]

NOT a problem by a long shot.

In fact, I've been kicking around whether or not to intentionally leave a gap to aid in insulation installation.

How tough does rebar hold?
I recently had used my 12,000 lb backhoe's weight to push down a telephone pole with a single piece of 1/2" rebar pinning it through a predrilled hole. It was all I could do to get it to drop back on.

With 15 to 20 pieces in each log, and another 15 to 20 from the log above, THEY AIN'T GOIN' ANYWHERE!

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[StressMan79]

What is never fully valued, no one is perfect. Try to drive 3 pcs in a row. It won't happen. Put enough load on a log to get it to slide 1/100th inch. The logs are now much tighter...like 100 times. I have been inside of 10 homes... Some decades old. None have settled. Never will. It is impossible.

[edkemper]

As for many haters of our way, can you imagine paying the cost of having a kit home built, paying the mortgage, experiencing all the problems with it and then hearing about a way to build a real log home for extremely cheap by inexperienced non-contractors? An organization started by a non-traditional person like Skip? (God Bless Skip)

After paying for the kit and the build, I'd probably hate hearing about LHBA also.

The majority has always hated the minority. It's our national heritage.

[rreidnauer]

The majority has always hated the minority. It's our national heritage.I don't think that is terribly accurate. At least not in the simplicity of the statement.



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[LBolton2008]

Timberwolf,

WOW! WOW! WOW~! If I wasn't sold on the classes a couple of hours ago, I am now after viewing your photos. The step-by-step of each stage was amazingly helpful for me to envision the whole thing! I new believe that we can DO THIS! As soon as I can get my husband and me into the class, I will be there. I may bring both my grown sons too.

I've never really liked the look of the chinking ( I guess that's what you call the bright white material between the logs). Does it have to be so bright and VIVID? I didn't see this part of the process in your photos, and I'm guessing that this is a messy process?

I am PSYCHED! We can do this!

Thanks so much for your encouragement! :) Do you have any more photos of your completed house? The last photos I saw were of the staining and chinking. I'm not even sure I saw the windows and doors go in, or any of the interior going in. I can't thank you enough. It just all seemed to 'click' as I viewed your step-by-step photos. :)

L

[LBolton2008]

Sorry, I must have posted this in the wrong spot! Oops!

[LBolton2008]

I'm trying to respond to Timberwolf's post. Let me try again. I did earlier and it seemed to go to some other location. Here goes!

Timberwolf,

WOW! WOW! WOW~! If I wasn't sold on the classes a couple of hours ago, I am now after viewing your photos. The step-by-step of each stage was amazingly helpful for me to envision the whole thing! I new believe that we can DO THIS! As soon as I can get my husband and me into the class, I will be there. I may bring both my grown sons too.

I've never really liked the look of the chinking ( I guess that's what you call the bright white material between the logs). Does it have to be so bright and VIVID? I didn't see this part of the process in your photos, and I'm guessing that this is a messy process?

I am PSYCHED! We can do this!

Thanks so much for your encouragement! Do you have any more photos of your completed house? The last photos I saw were of the staining and chinking. I'm not even sure I saw the windows and doors go in, or any of the interior going in. I can't thank you enough. It just all seemed to 'click' as I viewed your step-by-step photos.

L

[AkChas]

........WOW! WOW! WOW~! If I wasn't sold on the classes a couple of hours ago, I am now after viewing your photos. The step-by-step of each stage was amazingly helpful for me to envision the whole thing! I new believe that we can DO THIS! As soon as I can get my husband and me into the class, I will be there. I may bring both my grown sons too.

I've never really liked the look of the chinking ( I guess that's what you call the bright white material between the logs). Does it have to be so bright and VIVID? .......
I am PSYCHED! We can do this!L

Hehehe... Zzzzzeeeeeeeeeeee (Another one hooked!). You'll find other members have links to their builds as well, links often found below their signature on posts -- RockLock for one, RckClmbr for another, various others with excellent photo / video documentation.
The chinking can be about any color/shade you want it to be -- a matter of personal preference -- you'll learn that in class too.
Speaking of which -- in case you didn't see the post on your "Newbie" thread -- the Memorial Day weekend class is now open and available to purchase. Best to jump on it! (They sell out Faaast).

Cheers and Welcome to the clan :)

[Timberwolf]

I'm trying to respond to Timberwolf's post. Let me try again. I did earlier and it seemed to go to some other location. Here goes!

Timberwolf,

WOW! WOW! WOW~! If I wasn't sold on the classes a couple of hours ago, I am now after viewing your photos. The step-by-step of each stage was amazingly helpful for me to envision the whole thing! I new believe that we can DO THIS! As soon as I can get my husband and me into the class, I will be there. I may bring both my grown sons too.

I've never really liked the look of the chinking ( I guess that's what you call the bright white material between the logs). Does it have to be so bright and VIVID? I didn't see this part of the process in your photos, and I'm guessing that this is a messy process?

I am PSYCHED! We can do this!

Thanks so much for your encouragement! Do you have any more photos of your completed house? The last photos I saw were of the staining and chinking. I'm not even sure I saw the windows and doors go in, or any of the interior going in. I can't thank you enough. It just all seemed to 'click' as I viewed your step-by-step photos.

L


Awww. Thanks L. I'm flattered.

I wasn't a big fan of chinking either. And for whatever reason, it seems that so many people dread the process to death.

For me, it was one of the best and easiest part of the process. There aren't many pictures because I did that part without help. Just me and the mixer and the buckets and the trowels and the scaffold. Mix, lug, trowel, repeat. 2 tons worth. Suddenly, it looks like a log home.

Mine is bright and white because I didn't want grey (note, you can pretty much have ANY colour you want, if you want it bad enough) I wanted something bright. And all the log buildings I grew up around had white lime chinking, so for me, it just worked.

There are some photos of the house with all the windows and doors installed in another album on the same site, feel free to look, they aren't hidden, I was just maxing out the practical limit for number of photos in one album.

BTW, that house, 95% of it at least was me and a buddy, or just me. You and your husband and 2 sons can DO this. You just have to want to.