Pier Vs Full Foundation Cost

[John W]

Anybody want to take a stab at an 'it depends' question?

What would be a wag at a percentage increase in cost between building on piers vs digging out for a full height basement/foundation?

Are we talking about a $1,200 vs a $12,000 pricetag?

You sure do gain a lot by going the full basement route. Equipment you can put down there and STORAGE! Let alone a killer woodshop.

So has anybody done the math on their build and decided one way or the other based on that?

Thanks guys (and girls).

[blane]

I did piers on my build and the cost was 2500 including trenching the footers, forms, rebar, concrete and a pump truck. I have heard ranges in price on a full poured foundation from 10,000 up to 20,000. This also depends on what you go with "lots of options to consider". If ever build another one I would like to be able to have a walkout basement. I liked the piers though as far as construction ease, not really fond of how it looks though but there are ways to cover up the ugly. I think hanging floor joists off the ledger board would be way easier that attaching a rim joist to the first course log as well.
On the other hand, if you just need a small workshop you could build a detached garage and forgo the basement.

[FishingAddict]

I cannot address the cost question but as far as longevity I wonder how much it matters, if at all.
We have lots of 100-140 year old log homes up in the northern part of MN tucked away in the woods. If they were maintained - mainly someone kept them in use with a roof that worked !! - that are in use or could be today with some TLC. They all sit on rocks it seems along the the corners. So a form of rock pier - cheap no doubt
Of course what they called a house back then in size people would frown at today mostly and call it a cabin but that's America today .... bigger is better or whatever.

My post was more directed to Blane as I truly love the old log look where they motared local rock up around the lower logs and created that old world charm using that as the foundation look. I still hope someday to create one with this look as it is what I have dreamed about for better than 50 years since I first played in one up on the shores of Rainy Lake. It had a wood access door off one side that also lead to a cold cellar - I can see it and smell it even today! Sadly the area was devasted by fire many years ago so all I have are some old B&W Brownie camera photos and my memory - which is not as faded as those pics at that!
If the time comes I'll duplicate that look.
Anyhoots - curious Balane as to why you don't like the look???

[blane]

Well, as far as aesthetics I really like what you are describing in the old cabins tucked away back in the woods, "they are everywhere here where I live" but code will not allow stacked rocks so you have concrete piers visible with a pt 2x8 sandwiched between the pier and first course log. Like I said though, I am kicking around how I can cover that up and make it look more like dry stacked rock where the piers are or will be showing. And I will probably be doing a wrap around porch that will mostly cover them from a distance any how. As far as structure for the weight of a house like this I think piers are by far the most superior foundation. It is what Skip did his huge 7000 square foot home with and it has survived some pretty good earth quake's with no structural damage at all.

[FishingAddict]

So you cannot have on piers and then fill in between with stone per code? Has the evil man signed off yet on all? Wait and then the mice hauled it in and .... ;O
I sometimes this gubbermint is about as dysfunctional as it gets in anything and everything they get their mitts in.
I dig your place and no doubt even battling the code issue there you'll get it perfect.

[ChainsawGrandpa]

Piers will allow ventilation which keeps away rot & mold. That will give you a longer life.
The difference in cost depends on many factors (pour yourself, hire the work, extra steel,
etc.) but at my longitude and elevation I'm required to have piers that go down very deep.
The difference in cost between a full basement and piers was minimal. A few more feet for
the walls, a floor, electrical, and drywall to meet code.... I prefer piers, but deep piers might
mean they would need to be designed by an engineer, and the problem with round vs. square
is exacerbated with the increased depth (a pyramid won't tip over, a pole will. Poles fall over
in earthquakes (liquifaction), pyramids are stable.

An equal factor in long life is overhangs. I have a carport that is 12' wide. Sometimes the
snow and rain are accompanied by wind. Recently I had (YET ANOTHER!!) snow storm.
Despite the twelve foot width of the carport the house wall was wet several feet up from the
floor. Skip advocated 6' eaves. My recommendation is also for 6' eaves... if you are only
going up one story. Two floors might require a parapet, but don't extend too far away from
the building if you have a steep pitch. The view out your windows could be of the underside
of the eaves!

-G'pa

[ChainsawGrandpa]

I guess I didn't answer the question...

About $8,000 difference between a full basement, and piers.
You might expect a similar amount depending on inflation,
how much work you hire out, the depth of your frostline, will
a fireplace foundation need to go all the way into the basement
floor for your second floor fireplace, blah, blah, blah.... Many
factory to consider. YMMV.

-G'pa

[blane]

Oh no, you can do that, I am talking about how the old cabins that have been built around here on foundations of just stacked rocks, I actually like the openness under the house for ventilation and no place for moisture to settle and rot the house, I am considering making my piers look like stacked rock to cover them up but I really don't want to "underpin" the house. Probably more than anything what I don't like is seeing all the mess right now from construction up under the house but it will all clean up and I will be happy happy again:). A basement is really not imo the best space but it is cheap space all things considered.
So you cannot have on piers and then fill in between with stone per code? Has the evil man signed off yet on all? Wait and then the mice hauled it in and .... ;O
I sometimes this gubbermint is about as dysfunctional as it gets in anything and everything they get their mitts in.
I dig your place and no doubt even battling the code issue there you'll get it perfect.

[Timberwolf]

So you cannot have on piers and then fill in between with stone per code? Has the evil man signed off yet on all? Wait and then the mice hauled it in and .... ;O
I sometimes this gubbermint is about as dysfunctional as it gets in anything and everything they get their mitts in.
I dig your place and no doubt even battling the code issue there you'll get it perfect.

If your frost depth is shallow, I think there's a very valid argument for a crawl space (aka, the short basement) which you could easily face with, slipform, or dry stack stone on the footer.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Ok I'll be the one...... "it depends". :p I'm in the class in March so take that into account when considering my answer. Based on what Blane said of his cost for piers, I believe we can get our full below grade basement in for right about 10K. Understand this is with me doing the icf work and as much as possible of the "labor". My prelim cost estimates are also based on 40' X 40' basement. The costs go down of course if we build smaller. So, the "it depends" , would come into play with how much you are doing versus hiring a crew. If we hallucinate together, let's just say we built the same structure. Figure the difference in cost is ball park 7500 to 9000. How much is a full basement worth? We plan, eventually on finishing out the basement into livable space. Thus, we'd have another roughly 1600 square feet, to us it's worth it. Plus I'm just fascinated with ICF's. :D My two cents.

[dvb]

We did a 4' crawl space under our cabin and I will never do that again. It is nice to have all of the utilities down there and not in the cabin, but what a pain to work down there. I will be able to work standing up next time! The crawl space is included in the conditioned air in the cabin to keep everything dry to address Grandpa's issue with rot. I will go with a full basement on the next house. The additional cost is minimal compared to a crawlspace. We did the foundation/crawlspace for about $5,000 for the ICFs, rebar and concrete. A full basement would have been about $3,000 more at the time.

[rckclmbr428]

There's nothing cheaper then an extra 10k for an extra 1000 Sq. Ft.

[Mosseyme]

Dan,
I hope you can get there for that!

[blane]

I would say the ICF would be at the higher end of those options but IMO the best option. Might be hard pressed to do ICF for 10,000 even if you do it all yourself but I am just going by what others have said.
Ok I'll be the one...... "it depends". :p I'm in the class in March so take that into account when considering my answer. Based on what Blane said of his cost for piers, I believe we can get our full below grade basement in for right about 10K. Understand this is with me doing the icf work and as much as possible of the "labor". My prelim cost estimates are also based on 40' X 40' basement. The costs go down of course if we build smaller. So, the "it depends" , would come into play with how much you are doing versus hiring a crew. If we hallucinate together, let's just say we built the same structure. Figure the difference in cost is ball park 7500 to 9000. How much is a full basement worth? We plan, eventually on finishing out the basement into livable space. Thus, we'd have another roughly 1600 square feet, to us it's worth it. Plus I'm just fascinated with ICF's. :D My two cents.

[eduncan911]

We did a 4' crawl space under our cabin and I will never do that again. It is nice to have all of the utilities down there and not in the cabin, but what a pain to work down there. I will be able to work standing up next time! The crawl space is included in the conditioned air in the cabin to keep everything dry to address Grandpa's issue with rot. I will go with a full basement on the next house. The additional cost is minimal compared to a crawlspace. We did the foundation/crawlspace for about $5,000 for the ICFs, rebar and concrete. A full basement would have been about $3,000 more at the time.

I bought something like this for our current home that has a crawl space:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203682942/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=folding+cart&storeId=10051#.UPO3HyfoSms

Mind you, that isn't the actual one we got. The one I got from HD is actually made out of ABS plastic with extra large wheels.

It's actually kind of fun to go zipping around in the crawl space. Does a heck of a job transporting things from one end to the other (and if you can lay down on it with stuff stacked, the better).


There's nothing cheaper then an extra 10k for an extra 1000 Sq. Ft.

Agreed, and this is how I convinced the better-half to spend more on the foundation.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I would say the ICF would be at the higher end of those options but IMO the best option. Might be hard pressed to do ICF for 10,000 even if you do it all yourself but I am just going by what others have said.

Hmmmm you may be right. I was thinking no way the icf's would be more than the crete. Got some prelim numbers.....yikes. I have to ask the guy some more questions but if the initial figures he shot out are correct, we won't get a below grade basement in for 10k.

[Mosseyme]

You are right about that Dan, more like 15-18 depending. But when you think about it you have to do the excavating, waterproofing, draining, footers, rebar, gravel ect. You are trading the ICF for the labor of someone forming the walls and pouring. For us the numbers we got even for a crew to stack the icf and pour were between 4,000 and 5,000. That is probably about what you will pay for the icf. The only way we would have gotten buy for much less would have been to do 12 blocks and pour them full. That would have taken us a long time and the ICF walls were done in a week. Could have been less if we didn't go have a grandbaby in the middle of it all.

[blane]

I know someone recommended 16" hollow blocks filled with crete, might come in at around the cost of piers for just crawl space if you want to go that rout

[rreidnauer]

I'm getting closer and closer to being talked into ICFs. One question though. In my foundation design, I have several "columns" that jut in from the walls for girder and RPSL support. Do they make forms for something like that? I'd imagine that they have "T"'s and end terminations that could work. I guess another option is to pkywood form those columns and break through the ICFs to tie the rebar and concrete to them.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[Mosseyme]

Yes Rod,
The company we used has T forms and end forms but we just used lumber to frame in the window and door. I would think you would have to brace it at the T end anyway so mabe use the T's and then use lumber to block the end as though it were the side to a window. Then put a brace on it. Also I would put a strip of osb around the top especially at the corners because each layer locks to the one below and above but the top layer does not have anything to lock it together at the top. I would put a 2'x8' osb on each side of the corners and run a strip around the top all the way. Even just a 12" strip is enough to stop any separation of the forms at the top. We had strips on most of it for the concrete horizontal funnels for the J bolts but 2 corners were not braced that way because we weren't putting deck on that end and one corner started to separate at the top so we were in the hole with 9' of wet concrete on one side and rock wall on the other trying to brace it with osb. Everything went fine and we went on and braced the other corner before they got to it but a couple pieces of osb would have prevented that bit of panic time. Everything else went fine and I think the separation came from over vibrating in the corners. As long a you vibrate it continues to move the concrete and when it is all full it will start to push out.

[Mosseyme]

Rod,
With everything on site 2 people can stack a 9' wall of ICF in a day bracing has to start at about the 4th layer for our brand so that slows you down so it will end up takeing 2 days with the bracing. Then framing in any opening takes another 1/2 day for us plus prepping for the ledger boards which we did 2 inside walls and 3 outsde walls for decks took at least 1/2 a day, getting the vertical rebar in and wired took 1/2 a day and we are slow. We did have a guy helping us that was very good and cheap. 2 people that can work well together and are fairly fast could do it in 2-3 days. Ronnie could do it in a day!!!

[Timberwolf]

With the product I used, if you could dream it, you could do it.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Yeah Rod with the company I've been looking into you can do anything you can imagine. Well stated Timberwolf. I know I will do some more talking and of course I'll have a much better feel after class, but I'm a bit discouraged about the pricing of icf's. I mean below grade the R factor isn't as big a concern as preventing water seepage. There are many ways to skin that cat. <Pardon the analogy to all cat lovers>

I know it was said here concrete block isn't a good idea for full basement with a LBHA home. Someone remind me, why it wouldn't be feasible to rebar reinforce and fill concrete block. I mean building on piers is one option. Of course don't give away LBHA methods, but I'm brain farting again.

[Mosseyme]

I don't think it is a bad idea to build on concrete blocks rebarred and filled. It was the time and effort that swung us to icf. There is at least one build currently going up with concrete block basement.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I hear you on the time and effort stage. I know my information base will increase exponentially after class in March.

[dvb]

Eric,
That cart would work if I had a concrete floor.!? Thanks for the thought.

[trampster]

dvb I was wondering why you would not go with a 4ft. stem wall again? We do not have a desire to have a full basement so are just trying to figure out how to build for the least funds. Frostline is 42" so it seems that piers would be as much or more than doing a footer and short walls to get us up where we need to be. At least that's what I have figured considering the size the piers would need to be, and that is with me not doing the labor on a 4ft. wall.

If I don't need the storage, what is the downside to a stem wall? Just curious to find out all I can before I make a decision on what to do in Colorado.

[BoFuller]

dvb I was wondering why you would not go with a 4ft. stem wall again? We do not have a desire to have a full basement so are just trying to figure out how to build for the least funds. Frostline is 42" so it seems that piers would be as much or more than doing a footer and short walls to get us up where we need to be. At least that's what I have figured considering the size the piers would need to be, and that is with me not doing the labor on a 4ft. wall.

If I don't need the storage, what is the downside to a stem wall? Just curious to find out all I can before I make a decision on what to do in Colorado.

I'm doing the 4 ft stem wall. Actually it will be closer to 6 feet because we had to dig deeper than we thought to get through the clay.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

dvb I was wondering why you would not go with a 4ft. stem wall again? We do not have a desire to have a full basement so are just trying to figure out how to build for the least funds. Frostline is 42" so it seems that piers would be as much or more than doing a footer and short walls to get us up where we need to be. At least that's what I have figured considering the size the piers would need to be, and that is with me not doing the labor on a 4ft. wall.

If I don't need the storage, what is the downside to a stem wall? Just curious to find out all I can before I make a decision on what to do in Colorado.

Hallucinate with me for a moment my friend. Your frostline is 42". Most jurisdictions will require your foundation to be 18" below the frost line. You're now at 5 feet. You'll excavate for a stem wall. Yes you could just trench but if you removed all the "dirt" you'd only need three or four more feet for full size basement. Yes you'd have to pour the slab for the basement, but concrete is relatively inexpensive. You now also have a number of options for plumbing for the first floor and freeze conditions. You've gained additional square footage. You can finish later if you choose or not.

I'm not trying to change your mind. A stem wall is fine. I'm simply pointing out it's not that much more an investment to put in the basement.

[dvb]

Trampster,
I would never do 4' walls again because the basement or crawl space is the ideal spot to put the mechanical stuff, it is not taking up space on the main floor and it is easy access all over the house. I was really tired of working on my knees when I finished down there! Also, most of my wiring is down there since it was easier than putting it in the logs. This one was for learning and learn I did!

[trampster]

Well you all certainly got me thinking about other options now!! Like I don't have enough going on in this pea brain (-: I grew up with a basement so it would be fine for me. And we do want to think about resale, so it might be the way to go. Easier space than going higher, especially since I already have to do something for a foundation. I ruled out piers cuz they would have to be really big and cost would be a wash.

I suppose the labor cost would be fairly similar for a full basement vs. a stem wall. This is one of those areas I am trying to decide how much I want to do in order to save cash.

According to the county website the bottom of my footer needs to be at 42" so to get the 18" above grade for the logs, the stem wall would be 50" since on top of it would be a 2 inch sill plate. So the extra 4 feet of elevation and the floor would add quite a bit of cost in concrete, rebar, gravel, labor.......just gotta decide whether I need the space and have the money and resale and..........Aaaaaaargh!!

But I definitely want to take into account the dvb experience and have thought having the space would allow more flexibility in plumbing, electric, mechanicals location, etc.

Plenty more to chew on and I really do thank you!! Just wish someone else could make all the tough decisions!

[rreidnauer]

Hmmm. I remember the oil furnace in the house I grew up in. It was a beast of a unit, about 6 ft long and 3 ft deep. But that was then.

The mech space argument has almost no merit these days. With wall hung instant water heaters and condensing furnaces, the space required is so small, they could be tucked away almost anywhere, including the crawlspace.

A lot of folks try to talk me into stretching my crawl to a basement, but working from a tight budget, and shooting for some ambitious features, I have to find anyplace I can to save a grand here and there.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[Tom Featherstone]

You only get to do your foundation once. If your frost laws require you to go deeper and therefore piers become costly... Why not do a basement? It is still the cheapest square footage in the build for that extra space.. Forgo the hot tub right away, the extra 3K is money spent you'll never regret.

Have enough room ?

[BoFuller]

I'm with Rod. I'm already over budget. I was expecting a 20 inch crawl space and now I have an area 16 ft x 16 ft that will be almost 6 feet deep, after the stem wall is finished. I'm going to cherish the extra space I do have and consider myself ahead instead of getting greedy for a full basement. Besides the fact that I don't want to go back to the county and give them something else to shaft me with!

[loghousenut]

I keep wondering what would Skip have done.... WWSHD.





Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2

[BoFuller]

I think he would say to build what you can afford. :)

[TheBeak]

How does one determine the frost line (... to determine the depth of piers/footings ) in any given area?

[trampster]

I just went onto the county website and found a link that had foundation typicals. This showed a variety of foundation options, the specifications required, one of which is the necessary depth required.

[rreidnauer]

How does one determine the frost line (... to determine the depth of piers/footings ) in any given area?Just call the bldg dept. That's what they are there for. While you got them on the phone, ask what the live load for the area is too. (if applicable)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[LogHomeFeverDan]

<grin> In Florida, we didn't have <ahem> frost lines, but you still needed to call the building department to find out "sea level". Heck in some places you could plant a tree and hit salt water. (-;

[TheBeak]

Just call the bldg dept. That's what they are there for. While you got them on the phone, ask what the live load for the area is too. (if applicable)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

Live load would include things like snow on the roof, people, and objects in the house - is that about correct?

[rreidnauer]

Yup. Snow load for rafters, and floor loading for inside. (which will be expressed in "pounds per square foot.")